The Fate of Padan Fain

[mdnyttokr]

I saw some discussion on another thread about Padan Fain, and specifically that Brandon Sanderson has stated that he wants to distance Fain from the character of Gollum. This was on a thread about Olver, so it seemed appropriate to move the discussion here. This can't be an original theory, I'm sure someone else thought of it before I did, but I never read about anyone else stating this. I'm not saying this theory is "mine," but I did think of it without any outside influence.

 

I think the foreshadowing of Fain's fate has been incredibly clear since Fain slashed Rand's side over his wound from Ishamael. Somehow, in the end, when Rand is doing his thing against Moridin and the DO, and whatever other Forsaken are trying to stop him, Fain will clearly have some role to play. What role? I do have a theory. Whatever Rand does to fight the Last Battle, in the end, I believe that he will lock Padan Fain up in the DO's prison along with the DO.

 

Why? Foreshadowing. Look at how Mordeth's power reacted to the DO's power within Rand's wound after Fain slashed him. The two different evils are fighting one another, and once Rand was healed, both of those evils were too busy with one another to fight Rand.

 

Then there was the cleansing of saidin, where the power of Mordeth and Shadar Logath was used to clean the taint on saidin. In essence, the two evils again fought one another to the point of neutralizing each other.

 

We're being given a preview of Fain's role in the Last Battle. Somehow, the totality of Mordeth/Fain will get locked away with the DO. The Dragon is tied to the land, and the wound in his side is represented by Shayol Ghul. The Last Battle takes place there, and is representative of the battle in Rand's side wound. Mordeth/Fain gets locked in the "wound" with the DO (perhaps Shaidar Haran, or perhaps just the incorporeal DO himself), and the two keep each other occupied until the prison is again penetrated after some future turning of the wheel.

 

So that's what I think will happen to Fain, without a lot of detail.

 

P.S. I hope Mashiara sees this, since I was bugging her about doing a Fain theory for her blog.

[thisguy]

I saw some discussion on another thread about Padan Fain, and specifically that Brandon Sanderson has stated that he wants to distance Fain from the character of Gollum. This was on a thread about Olver, so it seemed appropriate to move the discussion here. This can't be an original theory, I'm sure someone else thought of it before I did, but I never read about anyone else stating this. I'm not saying this theory is "mine," but I did think of it without any outside influence.

 

I think the foreshadowing of Fain's fate has been incredibly clear since Fain slashed Rand's side over his wound from Ishamael. Somehow, in the end, when Rand is doing his thing against Moridin and the DO, and whatever other Forsaken are trying to stop him, Fain will clearly have some role to play. What role? I do have a theory. Whatever Rand does to fight the Last Battle, in the end, I believe that he will lock Padan Fain up in the DO's prison along with the DO.

 

Why? Foreshadowing. Look at how Mordeth's power reacted to the DO's power within Rand's wound after Fain slashed him. The two different evils are fighting one another, and once Rand was healed, both of those evils were too busy with one another to fight Rand.

 

Then there was the cleansing of saidin, where the power of Mordeth and Shadar Logath was used to clean the taint on saidin. In essence, the two evils again fought one another to the point of neutralizing each other.

 

We're being given a preview of Fain's role in the Last Battle. Somehow, the totality of Mordeth/Fain will get locked away with the DO. The Dragon is tied to the land, and the wound in his side is represented by Shayol Ghul. The Last Battle takes place there, and is representative of the battle in Rand's side wound. Mordeth/Fain gets locked in the "wound" with the DO (perhaps Shaidar Haran, or perhaps just the incorporeal DO himself), and the two keep each other occupied until the prison is again penetrated after some future turning of the wheel.

 

So that's what I think will happen to Fain, without a lot of detail.

 

P.S. I hope Mashiara sees this, since I was bugging her about doing a Fain theory for her blog.

I've been thinking something along the same lines. I think somehow Fain will be a buffer between what Rand (And co) does to lock away the DO and the DO's counterstrike. Madness was caused by the DO's counterstrike and Fain is completely nuts; that's why he gets along with Maichin Shain so well.

[spoke]

I saw some discussion on another thread about Padan Fain, and specifically that Brandon Sanderson has stated that he wants to distance Fain from the character of Gollum. This was on a thread about Olver, so it seemed appropriate to move the discussion here. This can't be an original theory, I'm sure someone else thought of it before I did, but I never read about anyone else stating this. I'm not saying this theory is "mine," but I did think of it without any outside influence.

 

I think the foreshadowing of Fain's fate has been incredibly clear since Fain slashed Rand's side over his wound from Ishamael. Somehow, in the end, when Rand is doing his thing against Moridin and the DO, and whatever other Forsaken are trying to stop him, Fain will clearly have some role to play. What role? I do have a theory. Whatever Rand does to fight the Last Battle, in the end, I believe that he will lock Padan Fain up in the DO's prison along with the DO.

 

Why? Foreshadowing. Look at how Mordeth's power reacted to the DO's power within Rand's wound after Fain slashed him. The two different evils are fighting one another, and once Rand was healed, both of those evils were too busy with one another to fight Rand.

 

Then there was the cleansing of saidin, where the power of Mordeth and Shadar Logath was used to clean the taint on saidin. In essence, the two evils again fought one another to the point of neutralizing each other.

 

We're being given a preview of Fain's role in the Last Battle. Somehow, the totality of Mordeth/Fain will get locked away with the DO. The Dragon is tied to the land, and the wound in his side is represented by Shayol Ghul. The Last Battle takes place there, and is representative of the battle in Rand's side wound. Mordeth/Fain gets locked in the "wound" with the DO (perhaps Shaidar Haran, or perhaps just the incorporeal DO himself), and the two keep each other occupied until the prison is again penetrated after some future turning of the wheel.

 

So that's what I think will happen to Fain, without a lot of detail.

 

P.S. I hope Mashiara sees this, since I was bugging her about doing a Fain theory for her blog.

 

I posted this theory a long while ago, so this is not too original, I went to the point of saying that in order to heal the world, Rand's death will involve removing the wound from his side (hence his blood and all that junk), because he is one with the land, the land needs it's corruption removed.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

I tend to agree, and have posted similar theory more than once on various threads. I believe to truly trap the DO Rand will seal fain in with him (much like the forsaken originaly were) and the two evils will keep each other in an eternal stalemate within the prison.

[TootThatHorn]

I wonder what people think would happen to Fain if hypothetically he got his head chopped off? and yes it's a serious question.

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Dec 25th, 2010

Stormblessed.com Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

Everyone's favorite Wheel of Time question has been answered—after Towers of Midnight, we now know who killed Asmodean. It doesn't seem right to leave you without a WoT question, so in honor of Asmodean: What do you think would happen if Rand managed to hurl Padan Fain through the Bore into the Dark One's prison?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The Dark One would spit him back out because he tastes bad.

 

 

 

The DO wouldn't have trouble with Fain or Mordeth's power. The Taint, a small fraction of the DO's power. A counterstroke made at the last minute before defeat, destroyed almost the entire manifestation of 2000 or so years of Mordeth's power growth.

 

 

If fain has anything to do with the defeat of the DO, most likely he will be used as a buffer against the DO's counterstroke.

[A Rant Lord]

Meh, the ´shadar logoth vs Dark One´ has already been used with healing Rands side wounds. I would be disapointed if that same method returns.

[thisguy]

I wonder what people think would happen to Fain if hypothetically he got his head chopped off? and yes it's a serious question.

I think he'd die. You chop of anybody's head in this book, they die.

[TootThatHorn]

I wonder what people think would happen to Fain if hypothetically he got his head chopped off? and yes it's a serious question.

I think he'd die. You chop of anybody's head in this book, they die.

 

Exactly, and that's why I can't see in any way him being used as a buffer against the Dark One. I don't see how he could survive it, the Dark One could literally annihilate him if he chose I'm sure.

[thisguy]

I wonder what people think would happen to Fain if hypothetically he got his head chopped off? and yes it's a serious question.

I think he'd die. You chop of anybody's head in this book, they die.

 

Exactly, and that's why I can't see in any way him being used as a buffer against the Dark One. I don't see how he could survive it, the Dark One could literally annihilate him if he chose I'm sure.

I agree with that. But, all he'd have to do is use his mashadar power to somehow hold off the DO while Rand and co seal the bore. He doesn't have to win, just buy some time.

[Sharaman]

I suspect the Morrdeth component of the entity can't be killed. Not by mundane means anyhow.

[TootThatHorn]

But how much time do you need? To me it's all one thing to be on the outside of the bore, but the second you get in to the Dark One's side of the bore, it's his game, and you are subject, to realistically a god. It's game over for everyone and everything including the pattern the second he gets past the bore so I just can't see anything surviving being that close to him, especially in Shayol Ghul where the rules really aren't the same. I guess we will see, I'm not saying the theory doesn't have merit but I wouldn't want it to go down like that. Most of it is just too much of the similarities to LotR for my taste, I would want it to be more unique than that, it would feel like robbery.

[Shai-tan]

So we know Fain is unique (sorry don't have quote but RJ confirmed it).

How was the Bore sealed in previous turnings? Could a unique evil opposed to the DO have been present in all previous turnings, that kinda means Fain isn't really unique? I guess it's possible if the pattern has spun out something to be used (such as Fain) in previous turnings..... If Fain is used as a buffer between the DO and the OP how was said taint cleaned from the previous ages if their wasn't something unique like Fain?

 

I definately don't think Fain will ever replace the DO as some crazy(in a nice way) people think but he may be used in sealing the Bore only if sealing the Bore is different in every turning....

[thisguy]

But how much time do you need? To me it's all one thing to be on the outside of the bore, but the second you get in to the Dark One's side of the bore, it's his game, and you are subject, to realistically a god. It's game over for everyone and everything including the pattern the second he gets past the bore so I just can't see anything surviving being that close to him, especially in Shayol Ghul where the rules really aren't the same. I guess we will see, I'm not saying the theory doesn't have merit but I wouldn't want it to go down like that. Most of it is just too much of the similarities to LotR for my taste, I would want it to be more unique than that, it would feel like robbery.

That I totally agree with. The only other way I can see Fain serving the plot is to save Rand from Ish or someone/thing else as in Fain's mind he is his to kill. But, thinking of how the taint resonated in Shadar Logoth and how Rand used Shadar Logoth as a dumping ground for the taint - and how Fain slashed him over the never healing wound - it just seems like it's fated to be in some way.

[Barid Bel Medar]

But how much time do you need? To me it's all one thing to be on the outside of the bore, but the second you get in to the Dark One's side of the bore, it's his game, and you are subject, to realistically a god. It's game over for everyone and everything including the pattern the second he gets past the bore so I just can't see anything surviving being that close to him, especially in Shayol Ghul where the rules really aren't the same. I guess we will see, I'm not saying the theory doesn't have merit but I wouldn't want it to go down like that. Most of it is just too much of the similarities to LotR for my taste, I would want it to be more unique than that, it would feel like robbery.

That I totally agree with. The only other way I can see Fain serving the plot is to save Rand from Ish or someone/thing else as in Fain's mind he is his to kill. But, thinking of how the taint resonated in Shadar Logoth and how Rand used Shadar Logoth as a dumping ground for the taint - and how Fain slashed him over the never healing wound - it just seems like it's fated to be in some way.

 

Indeed. Unfortunately the evidence suggests that it will work out something stupid like this. Personally I will be disappointed if Fain will be crucial in Sealing the DO.

 

I would much prefer him to just help by killing/distracting someone of the Shadow, or protecting Rand accidentally while he is trying to kill him. Even jumping out at Moridin when they are locked in battle would be alright. (although still a little too LotR-y)

 

However, the evidence suggests that I will be disappointed what with the Shadar Logoth incident and Rand's wound etc.. I think the cleansing was job enough though, that plotline has already been used.

[TootThatHorn]

But how much time do you need? To me it's all one thing to be on the outside of the bore, but the second you get in to the Dark One's side of the bore, it's his game, and you are subject, to realistically a god. It's game over for everyone and everything including the pattern the second he gets past the bore so I just can't see anything surviving being that close to him, especially in Shayol Ghul where the rules really aren't the same. I guess we will see, I'm not saying the theory doesn't have merit but I wouldn't want it to go down like that. Most of it is just too much of the similarities to LotR for my taste, I would want it to be more unique than that, it would feel like robbery.

That I totally agree with. The only other way I can see Fain serving the plot is to save Rand from Ish or someone/thing else as in Fain's mind he is his to kill. But, thinking of how the taint resonated in Shadar Logoth and how Rand used Shadar Logoth as a dumping ground for the taint - and how Fain slashed him over the never healing wound - it just seems like it's fated to be in some way.

 

Indeed. Unfortunately the evidence suggests that it will work out something stupid like this. Personally I will be disappointed if Fain will be crucial in Sealing the DO.

 

I would much prefer him to just help by killing/distracting someone of the Shadow, or protecting Rand accidentally while he is trying to kill him. Even jumping out at Moridin when they are locked in battle would be alright. (although still a little too LotR-y)

 

However, the evidence suggests that I will be disappointed what with the Shadar Logoth incident and Rand's wound etc.. I think the cleansing was job enough though, that plotline has already been used.

 

Ya the cleansing and scars definitely pop out, I'm just hoping that Fain fights SH, that would work just fine...If I read Fain getting stuffed in to/jumping in to a pit of lava though I'm gonna be really upset, but to quote my most hated saying "It is what it is."

[bmunge]

I have a couple theories regarding Fain. It is clear the his evil and the DO's evil counteract and attract each other, as we see with the cleansing and the wounds on Rand's side. It's quite possible that Fain attracted that particular Bubble of Evil that was present when he wounded Rand. If that is the case, something very interesting could happen if Rand breaks the seals while Fain is at Shayol Goul. Fain's power seems quie immense; I'm not certain that any human character could kill him at this point. He's similar to Shadar Haran in this regard. I could see Fain occupying the DO while Rand was able to restore the prison (with Fain inside).

 

Another theory would be around the effects of channeling the True Power at Fain. As we saw with the cleansing, the Taint was attracted to Shadar Logoth and once the reaction began it was sustaining. With the TP being the essence of the DO, what would happen if Rand through his link with Moridin channeled the TP at Fain. Would it create a similar reaction with the essence of the DO being drawn to Fain? It's going to be pretty interesting to see what happens to him.

[thisguy]

The more I think about it, the more I think Pain might kill, defeat, possess or fight Shaidar Haran. We see Fain kill and control myrdraal. Most of the main characters (The men, really) seem to have their opposites. Rand-Moridin, Perrin-Slayer, Mat-Daved Hanlon (that's just my theory). Fain's could be Shaidar Haran.

 

bmunge, I like your idea. I do think that somehow, Fain will inevitably help Rand in the end.

[Tiberius]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the True Power had no effect on Fain? Imagine Rand and Moridin web slinging at each other, and Fain just steps in and slits Moridin's throat with no effort, saying "Al'Thor is MINE!". Or something like that.

[Durinax]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the True Power had no effect on Fain? Imagine Rand and Moridin web slinging at each other, and Fain just steps in and slits Moridin's throat with no effort, saying "Al'Thor is MINE!". Or something like that.

now that you mention that, I wonder if SH can block Fain's power like he does the others

[triadruid]

I wonder if SH can block Fain's power like he does the others

Why would he? Fain's power has zilch to do with the One Power, and precious little (if anything) to do with the True Power.

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if the True Power had no effect on Fain? Imagine Rand and Moridin web slinging at each other, and Fain just steps in and slits Moridin's throat with no effort, saying "Al'Thor is MINE!". Or something like that.

Would not be a bad way for Fain to be 'useful' without being Gollum.2. I also think he might get to off Shaidar Haran instead, since Moridin seems to be Rand's "twin".

 

Also, going slightly sideways for a bit, I've got a new germ of a theory that Mat will be the one to off Fain. They've been paired since TEotW, and Fain's new abilities keep hinting at a sort of 'dark luck twisting' that makes him more like the Slayer to Perrin's Wolf, or the Moridin to Rand's Champion. Also they're both amalgamated characters, with old memories in a way separate from RandTherin.

[ArveduiEreinion]

There are a number of assumptions in this thread that I can't, frankly, understand.

 

How can anyone quantify the taint on saidin or the evil at Shadar Logoth? How could we begin to compare the two? Moreover, it is beyond the point. We know the two evils attract and repel one another. We also know that the Bore could continue to exist and be patched over. Why is it so hard to imagine that another patch could be in order only made stronger by the use of saidin and saidar? If Fain is used to keep the Dark One at bay (i.e repelling his power) while a patch is being made, isn't that a sufficient "buffer" to keep stop a counter-stroke against saidin/saidar?

 

Also, why assume "when he gets put into the Dark One's prison the DO will crush him?" The Dark One's own energies are negated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Are we to assume that fact goes away once Fain is trapped?

[MrWOTjunkie]

Personally I think that Rand willed be killed prior to Fain getting his chance. Once Fain discovers this he will open up a 'whole can a whoopass' on whoever was responsible. I'm thinking whatever he does in response will set back the DO allowing Rand upon his return to successfully seal the bore.

[Aquarius]

Most of this discussion has already taken place dozens of time, but for the sake of it, here are a couple of other ideas/theories I've heard since the nineties. I didn't invent those and I'm not sure I beleive in them either :) ::

- Fain will be the one to kill Rand so that Rand can do what's needed in TAR.

- Mat's nemesis is Shaidar Haran and we'll have one hell of a blademaster fight between the two. So we need another oponent for Fain.

- Don't forget the "Alivia will help him die" thing also.

- The actual buffer will be Rand/Moirane/Nyneave with Callandor while the taverness will stich the pattern like new, Fain will play a totally different part.

...

Can't remember all oof them sorry :)

[ArveduiEreinion]

Most of this discussion has already taken place dozens of time, but for the sake of it, here are a couple of other ideas/theories I've heard since the nineties. I didn't invent those and I'm not sure I beleive in them either :) ::

- Fain will be the one to kill Rand so that Rand can do what's needed in TAR.

- Mat's nemesis is Shaidar Haran and we'll have one hell of a blademaster fight between the two. So we need another oponent for Fain.

- Don't forget the "Alivia will help him die" thing also.

- The actual buffer will be Rand/Moirane/Nyneave with Callandor while the taverness will stich the pattern like new, Fain will play a totally different part.

...

Can't remember all oof them sorry :)

 

Makes sense. I've always thought the three ta'veren were needed to warp chance such that a group of survivors could escape from the battle at Shayol Ghul. Alternatively, I could see where Rand's plan would succeed once in a million tries and the three ta'veren allow for his particular attempt to succeed.