Mat & the Dice Ter'angreal

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Wonder what would happen if Mat went against the Dice, would probability break?

The Aes Sedai that tried it against him would be burned out

[Orderofolde]

That is interesting. Thanks, Suttree. "In a way it's true." I wish someone had asked a follow up question like "In what way?" or just plain old "So, how's he so lucky?"

I always thought that bit a little strange myself. It reminds me in a way of Perrin donning the golden armor in his dream with Lanfear there, as if his acceptance was from a gift from the Dark One. Mat and his luck seems much more than the luck of a Taveren, and he does eventually betray Rand somehow as seen through the images in the portal stones in his reliving countless lives. From what we know of Mat, his sisters always carried tales or he always got into trouble with his pranks as everyone in Emonds Field knew it was him. Now since leaving he really has some luck even when trouble finds him he gets out of it. Either something happened during the dagger cleansing apart from the Aes Sedai drawing bits of his old Manetheran soul out into the open with all the old tongue that we saw bits of previously and during the cleansing/healing, or the dice were just a prop in the story.

[Alanna]

Just saw this topic. I had been wondering something about the dice ter'angreal myself. We know they aren't connected to the his luck - as much as that quote from RJ about Mat's luck has always bugged me, I think his luck is mostly likely just a result of his being ta'veren.

 

However, in regard to the dice ter'angreal - is it possible the ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in Mat's head?

 

I was reading on the WOTFAQ that the ter'angreal could maybe be used against something like Mat's luck. And the last we've heard of this ter'angreal, the Black Ajah had stolen it. Maybe someone is trying to use it against Mat? The dice in his head always settle when something fateful or important happens to him, so maybe the Shadow could be trying to steer him off the Pattern's course for him, or something. Don't know if this has ever been brought up before.

 

EDIT: Could be tied into Egwene's dream of Mat dicing with the DO, although I had always just assumed that was reprresentative of his luck.

[Mr Ares]

Just saw this topic. I had been wondering something about the dice ter'angreal myself. We know they aren't connected to the his luck - as much as that quote from RJ about Mat's luck has always bugged me, I think his luck is mostly likely just a result of his being ta'veren.

Weight of evidence connects his luck to the Shadar Logoth dagger - it didn't begin to manifest until he had the dagger, and then the separation from the dagger resulted in his becoming luckier still. Also, he referenced his luck and his being ta'veren as separate things throughout the series. At least as late as CoT, probably KoD as well.

[Byzantine279]

Except we can't be sure of that, Mr. Ares, because their Taveren nature, and other unique talents, only woke up after Moiraine found them. So it could be as simple as Mat always had his supernatural luck, it simply did not manifest until later. (Or perhaps it was present all along and simply acted more subtly to get him in line with what he needed to do).

[Vardar]

Except we can't be sure of that, Mr. Ares, because their Taveren nature, and other unique talents, only woke up after Moiraine found them. So it could be as simple as Mat always had his supernatural luck, it simply did not manifest until later. (Or perhaps it was present all along and simply acted more subtly to get him in line with what he needed to do).

 

Mat actually said he's always been "Lucky" just not quite that lucky.

[Knivy]

I dont recall him gambling much in the first few books anyway, nor has he needed luck to escape this or that danger, so it wouldn't have come up anyway.

[Mr Ares]

Except we can't be sure of that, Mr Ares, because their Taveren nature, and other unique talents, only woke up after Moiraine found them. So it could be as simple as Mat always had his supernatural luck, it simply did not manifest until later. (Or perhaps it was present all along and simply acted more subtly to get him in line with what he needed to do).

It could be he was always insanely lucky but his insane luck just never appeared. It could be that, despite him being ta'veren for a few weeks prior to Moiraine finding him and the gap between Winternight and SL he never notices any strange abundance of luck but does chart the start of his super luck to being right after picks up the dagger. It could be that his thinking of the two things (luck and ta'veren) as separate is a mistake. But weight of evidence suggests that the dagger has something to do with his luck. Either it made him lucky, or it brought out a luck that was already within him. Either way, there's nothing to suggest it's ta'veren.

 

I dont recall him gambling much in the first few books anyway, nor has he needed luck to escape this or that danger, so it wouldn't have come up anyway.

We first see Mat gambling near the start of TGH. He's doing quite well for himself. When travelling to TV in TDR, he gambles with Hurin, but his success leads Hurin to stop gambling more than coppers, and later stop putting up money at all. So it did come up. It was there.

[Knivy]

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

[Vardar]

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

 

Pretty much correct. We'll never know, we know he said he's always been lucky, just not as lucky as he is now, however his comparrison was getting caught doing bad deeds a few times, and losing a silver penny to a guardsman once. Even current Mat doesn't always have things go his way. Maybe his thoughts on the whole thing are skewed.

 

If it was the dagger, why would breaking the bond with it make him luckier?

[Mr Ares]

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

It proves your point to say that every single piece of evidence says you're wrong? He was born. Some years later he becomes ta'veren. Some weeks later he gets the dagger. Then and only then does his luck change. Timing, if nothing else, weighs against it being natural birth or ta'veren. At the very least it had a period of weeks to manifest without the dagger and never did.

[Vardar]

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

It proves your point to say that every single piece of evidence says you're wrong? He was born. Some years later he becomes ta'veren. Some weeks later he gets the dagger. Then and only then does his luck change. Timing, if nothing else, weighs against it being natural birth or ta'veren. At the very least it had a period of weeks to manifest without the dagger and never did.

 

What did he do in that time however? Did any of their Tav nature show prior to that? Like really show as in to the readers?

 

It's like Perrin's early wish that he never met Elyas, because he never would have become a wolf brother. But did Elyas make Perrin a wolf brother, or would it have happened anyway.

[Knivy]

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

It proves your point to say that every single piece of evidence says you're wrong? He was born. Some years later he becomes ta'veren. Some weeks later he gets the dagger. Then and only then does his luck change. Timing, if nothing else, weighs against it being natural birth or ta'veren. At the very least it had a period of weeks to manifest without the dagger and never did.

 

Where is the first time we see him gamble? Where is the first time we see him in a situation where his luck would be visible?

 

Your argument is that since we dont find out till now, it wasnt true before.

[Suttree]

Another quote from RJ that could be a hint...

 

Interview: Nov 11th, 1998

MSN eFriends Interview (Verbatim)

Talisein

 

When was the exact moment Mat would have been able to feel the dice in his head?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Tal, I'm not certain that I understand the question. There seems to be no context?

Talisein

 

We first have the dice rolling around in Mat's head while he's gambling in Tar Valon. Some seem to think that the dice are an after affect of handling the dagger from Shadar Logoth. So, I wanted to know if there was any credence to that idea ;)

Robert Jordan

 

Tal, read and find out....good question though.

 

Wonder if the dice and luck are tied together as they would seem to be?

 

He also seems to confirm the luck started around that time...

 

Interview: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Isabel (Verbatim)

Question

 

In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began, is this a connection or coincidence?

Robert Jordan

 

 

That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

Isabel

 

[Hehe, another theory busted, and a very interesting answer. I am going for Shadar Logoth now.]

 

Also keep in mInd when Mat first learns about his luck while gambling he seems very much surprised. If it had always been that way you would think that wouldn't be the case.

[Knivy]

I dont think those dice have any actual effect on his everyday luck. Those have more to do with the luck of the world based on his decisions, from what I can tell.

[Vardar]

Also keep in mInd when Mat first learns about his luck while gambling he seems very much surprised. If it had always been that way you would think that wouldn't be the case.

 

The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 30:

 

"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. "

 

 

See. He was always lucky. His "luck" is his natural attribute that was enhanced by being a Taveren.

[Suttree]

Also keep in mInd when Mat first learns about his luck while gambling he seems very much surprised. If it had always been that way you would think that wouldn't be the case.

 

The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 30:

 

"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. "

 

 

See. He was always lucky. His "luck" is his natural attribute that was enhanced by being a Taveren.

 

What are your thoughts on the two RJ quotes I posted. They ar both suggestive no? Your quote above shows a distinct change around that time which would seem to lend creedence to the other side in this debate.

[Vardar]

Also keep in mInd when Mat first learns about his luck while gambling he seems very much surprised. If it had always been that way you would think that wouldn't be the case.

 

The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 30:

 

"He knew he was lucky. He could remember always being lucky. But somehow his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving. Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been sure would succeed. "

 

 

See. He was always lucky. His "luck" is his natural attribute that was enhanced by being a Taveren.

 

What are your thoughts on the two RJ quotes I posted. They ar both suggestive no? Your quote above shows a distinct change around that time which would seem to lend creedence to the other side in this debate.

 

I see your quotes, but they're only suggestive. He refuses to give an answer, it makes it seem like something is going to come of his "luck" and it's connections in the end of the series. But the book quote is pretty dang clear. He says he's always been lucky.

 

I personally feel that Mat deludes himself a lot. When he says "Being caught in pranks" and that implies times of not being lucky, I think he's fooling himself. Even now things don't always go his way. Just alot. Everything looks different in hindsight. Bad incidents stick with us more. For all we know, those are a few incidents he's thinking about in his mind, less than 10%. I'd say someone succeeding 90% of the time would be damned unnaturally lucky (Just made up those numbers). We know he was a prankster, known for pulling pranks that no one could pin on him, but they just knew it was him. That says something to me.

[Alanna]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

[FarShainMael]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

[BFG]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

 

The second of those goes more to prove his taveran nature than anything though. He needed to remain in Ebou Dar to meet Tuon, he was planning on leaving so the pattern stopped him. It's open to debate whether that constitutes good or bad luck :)

 

No so sure about the lightning, I think I've seen it debated as to whether this was his die and live again, which would again be required by the pattern.

[b3arz3rg3r]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

 

As for Ebou Dar some people might argue that having a wall fall on top of him and yet surviving without severe injuries and setting in motion the events which lead to him meeting and marrying the love of his life is pretty lucky.

 

Mat's luck has always been rather arbitrary to me. Sure it does fit his character, but why should carrying the dagger make him lucky and why should it make him sensitive to fateful moments and why that sensitivity should manifest in the form of rattling dice in his head? None of that makes a lot of sense from what I can see. Could it have been his ta'veren nature twisting the healing the Aes Sedai performed on him during the tower so that instead of just cutting of his link to the dagger they actually did something they did not intend at all?

[FarShainMael]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

 

The second of those goes more to prove his taveran nature than anything though. He needed to remain in Ebou Dar to meet Tuon, he was planning on leaving so the pattern stopped him. It's open to debate whether that constitutes good or bad luck :)

 

b3arz3rg3r seems to agree with you.. ;) but it was a bit drastic, wasn't it!!

 

No so sure about the lightning, I think I've seen it debated as to whether this was his die and live again, which would again be required by the pattern.

 

RJ seems to confirm that it did fulfil the Aelfinn prophecy - but what isn't clear is why the Pattern should require him to do so! I said in that discussion that perhaps his 'death' unlinked him from the Horn; but again, why would this be needed? RAFO I have no doubt....

[BFG]

That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

 

The second of those goes more to prove his taveran nature than anything though. He needed to remain in Ebou Dar to meet Tuon, he was planning on leaving so the pattern stopped him. It's open to debate whether that constitutes good or bad luck :)

 

b3arz3rg3r seems to agree with you.. ;) but it was a bit drastic, wasn't it!!

 

No so sure about the lightning, I think I've seen it debated as to whether this was his die and live again, which would again be required by the pattern.

 

RJ seems to confirm that it did fulfil the Aelfinn prophecy - but what isn't clear is why the Pattern should require him to do so! I said in that discussion that perhaps his 'death' unlinked him from the Horn; but again, why would this be needed? RAFO I have no doubt....

 

When I initially read the books, I assumed that it was about what happened in Rhuidean, after Rand brought him back to life he had all those additional memories, which makes more sense on the part of what was - except he didn't quite die, so it couldn't have been.

 

Very extreme, but Mat is a bit of a showman :)

[thisguy]

I don't see how it could have unlinked him from the horn, after Rahvin was balefired it's like that part of the thread never existed. But, as you say, RAFO.