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Mat & the Dice Ter'angreal


pepe Al'thor
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That first quote of RJ has always kind of confused me, because the asker seems to talking about the dice rattling around in Mat's head, which don't appear to have anything to do with his luck. The dice start rolling and land when something fateful or important happens to him, and I believe the first time he hears the dice is at the end of TDR, when he does to rescue the girls in Tear (though he doesn't seem conscious of the dice at that point, and it's not quite clear if they actually are rolling or if the phrase was just figurative at that point). Either way, the luck may be tied to the SL dagger, given the timing. But I don't think the dice are; that comes later, after the dagger. That's why I was wondering if it's possible the stolen dice ter'angreal has something to do with the dice rattling in his head (but not his luck, obviously).

 

When was that ter'angreal stolen exactly?

 

Only I've just had a thought.. is someone using it to 'pull Mat's strings'? To manipulate him somehow from a distance?

 

Edit: Of course. TDR 13. Must do some quick reading..

 

Edited again. Twice Mat's luck has failed him quite spectacularly. In another thread, someone pointed out that neither his luck nor his ta'verenism stopped Rahvin from killing him with lightning. In Ebou Dar, a wall fell on him in the Seanchan attack. Neither of those should have been possible. Mat himself says: "What happened to my bloody luck' as the wall comes down (ACoS39).

 

The second of those goes more to prove his taveran nature than anything though. He needed to remain in Ebou Dar to meet Tuon, he was planning on leaving so the pattern stopped him. It's open to debate whether that constitutes good or bad luck :)

 

b3arz3rg3r seems to agree with you.. ;) but it was a bit drastic, wasn't it!!

 

No so sure about the lightning, I think I've seen it debated as to whether this was his die and live again, which would again be required by the pattern.

 

RJ seems to confirm that it did fulfil the Aelfinn prophecy - but what isn't clear is why the Pattern should require him to do so! I said in that discussion that perhaps his 'death' unlinked him from the Horn; but again, why would this be needed? RAFO I have no doubt....

 

When I initially read the books, I assumed that it was about what happened in Rhuidean, after Rand brought him back to life he had all those additional memories, which makes more sense on the part of what was - except he didn't quite die, so it couldn't have been.

 

Very extreme, but Mat is a bit of a showman :)

 

It's a common though people have about Rhuidean but yeah RJ confirmed that the Rahvin part fulfills that prophecy.

 

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Thus spake RJ:

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Mat's amulet blocks both saidin and saidar. Jordan answered this one straight-out when asked. He pointed out that the amulet only blocks actual weavings of the One Power, not the physical effects that could be caused by a weaving. For example, Elayne was able to use the One Power to hurl a rock at Mat. Rahvin was able to create a bolt of lightning which struck Mat. (Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=62#2

 

How might it have unlinked him? That thread segment no londer existed as far as Mat was concerned; but Rand remembered it, and the Aelfinn knew about it. So something still existed somewhere. And the fact that the Aelfinn knew about it sort of indicates that it's significant somehow. But perhaps, as I mentioned, it just shows that someone's using that ter'angreal against him.

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That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

It proves your point to say that every single piece of evidence says you're wrong? He was born. Some years later he becomes ta'veren. Some weeks later he gets the dagger. Then and only then does his luck change. Timing, if nothing else, weighs against it being natural birth or ta'veren. At the very least it had a period of weeks to manifest without the dagger and never did.

 

What did he do in that time however? Did any of their Tav nature show prior to that? Like really show as in to the readers?

 

It's like Perrin's early wish that he never met Elyas, because he never would have become a wolf brother. But did Elyas make Perrin a wolf brother, or would it have happened anyway.

Why would he have to show it to the readers? This extends to a period of time before the series began. He was ta'veren for weeks before we ever met him, and yet noticed no sign. He didn't notice any sign of changed luck until SL. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth".

 

That kinda proves my point. Every piece of evidence for the dagger being the cause could also be attributed to being ta'veren or natural birth. He gets the dagger early in their trip. We see very little of him without its influence.

It proves your point to say that every single piece of evidence says you're wrong? He was born. Some years later he becomes ta'veren. Some weeks later he gets the dagger. Then and only then does his luck change. Timing, if nothing else, weighs against it being natural birth or ta'veren. At the very least it had a period of weeks to manifest without the dagger and never did.

 

Where is the first time we see him gamble? Where is the first time we see him in a situation where his luck would be visible?

 

Your argument is that since we dont find out till now, it wasnt true before.

The first time we see Mat gamble is TGH. And no, my argument is that Mat was around even for times we weren't. He notes he was always lucky, but his luck improved after taking the dagger from SL, and again after being separated from the dagger in TDR. That's based on his won experience. The boys became ta'veren before the series began. During the period between him becoming ta'veren and him taking the dagger, he noted no change in his luck. As we were not there at all, we can only rely on his viewpoint, and those of other people, and there is nothing relevant from other people. So the one source we have says that his luck didn't change until he got the dagger. Ta'veren didn't change his luck. And bear in mind he still consider his luck and ta'veren to be two separate things: "At first, he had believed it was his luck spreading, or perhaps being ta'veren finally coming in for something useful". WH 15. So we have a weight of evidence saying his luck and his being ta'veren are different, and nothing saying they are the same.
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It is unlikely that Mat's luck has to do with being ta'veren. Mat's major gifts are his luck and knowledge of war, as Rand's is his uber channeling and being the Champion of Light and Perrin's is being a wolf brother. Both Rand's and Perrin's gifts are tied to the soul and neither are because of being ta'veren. Rand was going to channel regardless. Perrin only becomes a wolf brother after SL, but he was going to anyway. Mat receives his tactical knowledge from the Finns, so I do not like the idea that he receives his luck from an outside source as well. I believe Mat's luck is his soul trait and would have received a boost whether he picked up that dagger or not.

 

Edit: that last bit is just gut instinct.

Edited by Xo Meltdown oX
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It is unlikely that Mat's luck has to do with being ta'veren. Mat's major gifts are his luck and knowledge of war, as Rand's is his uber channeling and being the Champion of Light and Perrin's is being a wolf brother. Both Rand's and Perrin's gifts are tied to the soul and neither are because of being ta'veren. Rand was going to channel regardless. Perrin only becomes a wolf brother after SL, but he was going to anyway. Mat receives his tactical knowledge from the Finns, so I do not like the idea that he receives his luck from an outside source as well. I believe Mat's luck is his soul trait and would have received a boost whether he picked up that dagger or not.

 

Edit: that last bit is just gut instinct.

 

I like this argument

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Regarding Mat's luck and link to the stolen dice ter'angreal, I just thought that his rescue of Moiraine proves that link is non-existent. It was Mat's luck that saved the day in a domain totally cut off from Randland (evidence Moiraine's link to Lan was cut off when she entered). On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

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Regarding Mat's luck and link to the stolen dice ter'angreal, I just thought that his rescue of Moiraine proves that link is non-existent. It was Mat's luck that saved the day in a domain totally cut off from Randland (evidence Moiraine's link to Lan was cut off when she entered). On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

Finnland is still part of the pattern. Ta'veren affect the entire pattern. People can still channel in Finnland, as exhibited by Moiraine, therefore a Ter'angreal would still be able to affect Finnland.

 

As to the non-deathraging, you are allowed one pass through the gateways. When she "died" it was her second time through, and the finns probably did something nasty to cut break her bond.

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Regarding Mat's luck and link to the stolen dice ter'angreal, I just thought that his rescue of Moiraine proves that link is non-existent. It was Mat's luck that saved the day in a domain totally cut off from Randland (evidence Moiraine's link to Lan was cut off when she entered). On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

Finnland is still part of the pattern. Ta'veren affect the entire pattern. People can still channel in Finnland, as exhibited by Moiraine, therefore a Ter'angreal would still be able to affect Finnland.

 

As to the non-deathraging, you are allowed one pass through the gateways. When she "died" it was her second time through, and the finns probably did something nasty to cut break her bond.

 

The Tear ter'angreal is different from the Rhuidean ter'angreal. Mat's experience proves it. Moiraine passed through the Rhiudean ter'angreal for the first time to kill Lanfear. As soon as she passed through, Lan felt that she died; and we know she didn't physically die, she was just cut off from "Randland."

 

Regarding a ter'angreal in Randland affecting Finnland, your example about channeling proves that Mat's luck is intrinsic, since channeling is a personal trait, and not an item-induced trait (which is the basis of the dice ter'angreal hypothesis).

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On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

 

I'm pretty sure Lan did experience the warder death rage, to some extent. He did not go and get himself killed though because Moiraine arranged for his bond to be passed to Myrelle and he was immediately compelled to seek her out.

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Regarding Mat's luck and link to the stolen dice ter'angreal, I just thought that his rescue of Moiraine proves that link is non-existent. It was Mat's luck that saved the day in a domain totally cut off from Randland (evidence Moiraine's link to Lan was cut off when she entered). On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

Finnland is still part of the pattern. Ta'veren affect the entire pattern. People can still channel in Finnland, as exhibited by Moiraine, therefore a Ter'angreal would still be able to affect Finnland.

 

As to the non-deathraging, you are allowed one pass through the gateways. When she "died" it was her second time through, and the finns probably did something nasty to cut break her bond.

 

The Tear ter'angreal is different from the Rhuidean ter'angreal. Mat's experience proves it. Moiraine passed through the Rhiudean ter'angreal for the first time to kill Lanfear. As soon as she passed through, Lan felt that she died; and we know she didn't physically die, she was just cut off from "Randland."

 

Regarding a ter'angreal in Randland affecting Finnland, your example about channeling proves that Mat's luck is intrinsic, since channeling is a personal trait, and not an item-induced trait (which is the basis of the dice ter'angreal hypothesis).

Oh, i didnt realize that the girls didnt enter the Rhuidean gateway.

 

And the channeling thing was that Ter'angreal could still affect Mat's luck in finnland, because the OP is present.

 

I dont believe his luck is caused by the Ter'angreal, but the finnland example doesnt prove anythign.

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On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.

 

I'm pretty sure Lan did experience the warder death rage, to some extent. He did not go and get himself killed though because Moiraine arranged for his bond to be passed to Myrelle and he was immediately compelled to seek her out.

 

Lan felt Moiraine die when she entered the Rhuidean doorframe ter'angreal at the end of the battle at the docks. Why didn't he feel her die when she entered the Tear doorframe ter'angreal? Or did that happen off screen?

 

I'll move this to the Ask a Simple Question thread so as not to detract the thread further.

Edited by Theodril
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On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.
It likely has something to do with the Doorway being destroyed one time and not the other - the first time she went through there was still a passage between the two worlds. In FoH, the passage was closed, and the bond was cut in the process.
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On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.
It likely has something to do with the Doorway being destroyed one time and not the other - the first time she went through there was still a passage between the two worlds. In FoH, the passage was closed, and the bond was cut in the process.

 

There's a RJ quote stating the above, although it makes 0 sesne considering the tower is still there and anyone who can draw a triangle is free to enter it. But in short, it works for the books, thus we accept it.

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On a side note, I wonder why Lan didn't suffer from warder death rage when Moiraine entered the Tear ter'angreal.
It likely has something to do with the Doorway being destroyed one time and not the other - the first time she went through there was still a passage between the two worlds. In FoH, the passage was closed, and the bond was cut in the process.

 

There's a RJ quote stating the above, although it makes 0 sesne considering the tower is still there and anyone who can draw a triangle is free to enter it. But in short, it works for the books, thus we accept it.

could it also be because the finns started feeding off of her? And I think a good way to cause lots of succulent emotions would be to sever the bond

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There really isn't time for it to be anything other than the Doorway exploding. As for the ToG, if that was a closed passage, then what I said holds true. There are no RJ quotes about why the bond snapped - that why, prior to the release of ToM, the prevailing theory was that the destruction of the Doorway had burnt Moiraine out (we have been told several times that misused ter'angreal can do that). The theory that ultimately proved to be true was seen as not as good, due to there being no real evidence and the existence of the ToG, as well as Verin's disappearance into the Portal Stone in TGH - Tomas was left behind, and despite being frantic with worry at being unable to locate her for a few months, did not have his bond snapped.

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