So a thought came to me...

[Suttree]

the split into three was totally unnecessary.

this is one of the stupidest things i have read. even if you removed scenes like hinderstrap, there is still too much plot development happening and threads to tie up for it to fit into one book and not read like an outline/summary... unless you think BS had the gravitas to win the fight with tor that RJ hinted would come. Seriously, reread what you said and what it would mean.

 

Reading comprehension much? I said fitting it into one would have been a long shot but the split into three is unnecessary. What does that leave us with? Need help with the math?

it was as unnecessary as the decision to have the series become a series instead of a 12,000+ page novel. the logic and reasoning would be the same. I know you seem to be lacking here, but let me help:

reasons why the three should be as one

1. RJ wanted it that way

2. it is one story (debateable)

- reason against: too much info and too many pages

 

reasons the whole series should be one book

1. it is one story (debateable)

-reason against: too much info and too many pages

 

seriously,to you argue just to argue? do you love the sound of your own voice so much that you love it in print too?

 

What are you even on about with this last post?

 

Ok let's take it slow. The discussion is about how many extra books RJ would have written were he the author. My claim was two as opposed to the three BS did and that a three way split was unnecessary. Not once did I say he could have done it in one.

 

Now not sure why you would presume categorize my post or why my opinion would be any different than any other in this thread?

 

Lastly how come so eggy mate? For some reason you have been personally attackIng me just about ever since I became aware of your existence on these boards. It comes across as exceedingly peevish and small. Stick to the topic please.

[Thrasymachus]

You guys are silly. Everybody knows there are no endings to the Wheel of Time.

[Maleshub]

You guys are silly. Everybody knows there are no endings to the Wheel of Time.

 

Rofl .... seems that debates tend to forget some basic things about the turnings of the wheel!

[Masema]

You guys are silly. Everybody knows there are no endings to the Wheel of Time.

 

Hmm than that means that EoTW wasn't the beginning.

 

 

I'll touch on a few points you guys have made.

 

My opinion on CoT was that while it wasn't filler, it certainly wasn't the most entertaining book. I look at it as an entire book of plot set up.

 

If Jim had stuck to his word (which he very rarely did concerning the length of the series) I think he would have had a very hard time convincing TOR to publish it as one book. The way that he writes would have made it impossible. While he certainly had more say with the publishers than a lot of authors, they still had the final say. It's my personal opinion that it he would have wrote it so long that it would have been stretched into five novels. I don't think that a three thousand page final book would be unrealistic if he had his way. He originally planned it as a trilogy, then as seven books, then as ten. I seriously doubt he could have fit a conclusion into one novel. I personally wouldn't have minded having a few more books until the end. I think it's sad that after this book there will be no new ones. Again, these are only my opinions.

 

I would have liked to read the ones he had planned on Tam, Mat, and the other prequel.

[Thrasymachus]

Hmm than that means that EoTW wasn't the beginning.

Certainly not. Ever hear of New Spring? And prior to that was the Strike on Shaol Ghul.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think a little clarification is needed here before things get too heated.

 

Sutts did NOT say that aMoL could easily be done in one book.

 

What he said was THREE 900 page books were/are unnecessary.

 

The major characters' plotlines could have been done in half the amount they were. Galad gets around 4 chapters worth of material alone in ToM, and we even have Moragse and Alliendre PoV, which are strictly speaking, unnecessary. Egwene Rand and Mat plots also have similar parts that could be reduced. Brandon even gave an example himself, saying that Egwene's dinner with Elaida was originally 1 scene, but he decided to split it into two chapters.

 

There are many possibilities in what Suttree says. IT could have been done in two 1000 page books. Or one 1500 page book and a smaller "ending" which could have come out shortly after. Or some other way. The point being, 3 books of 900 pages were unnecessary, is Suttree's point.

 

I myself have enjoyed how it turned out, I don't mind too much, but there is a case to be made.

 

 

On a different note: CoT may be slow and tedious to some, but to say that it is just filler is simply incorrect. Could it have been reduced in size? Yes. Was it long winded? Yes.

Was the majority just filler? No.

 

If people really can't see the importance of much of CoT, then they are missing or ignoring a whole chunk of the story. Which is fine, if people don't like reading in depth, and read just for the action. But to state that it is mostly filler is just incorrect and I would say missing half of the point of the series.

[thisguy]

Hmm than that means that EoTW wasn't the beginning.

Certainly not. Ever hear of New Spring? And prior to that was the Strike on Shaol Ghul.

 

Is Strike on Shayol Ghul a novel?

[Treebeard]

Personal perspective on plot lines that could have been reduced or deleted all together to trim the series:

- Whole Children of the Light plotline

- Significant parts of Elayne's succession

- All of Masema Dagar and his lunacy

- Significant parts of Valan Luca's circus

- Most of the Faile rescue operation

- Most of Rand's venture into Arad Doman

- Shara and all references to it since it is truly useless to the story

- Padan Fain: the guy should have died in Far Madding, if not before then.

I hope that you are kidding

[Wool-headed lummox]

That is patenetly false. Again not big on forsehadowing, immersive prose and set up are you?

I'm not big on foreshadowing for the sake of foreshadowing, immersive prose for the sake of immersive prose, and set up for the sake of set up. If these things do not move the plot forward, do not tell us anything new about the characters, don't even contain any information whatsoever about the mechanics of the supernatural entities the heroes face - then it doesn't matter and needs to be cut.

 

I'll ask one more time, curious as to what some of your other favorite series are?

Nothing too shocking, ASOIAF, Dune, LOTR, Chronicles of Amber. The classics. Harry Potter as well, although it's a different sort of fantasy.

 

I agree that few shocking or major plot twists happen

No-no, that's not what I said. No plot advancements happen. No major ones. No minor ones. Nothing at all. Egwene gets captured at the end, that's the only thing. There's nothing else to read about in the book. It's 100% filler.

 

It depends on what you call valuable

That which contains events and characters moving forward. Rand's storyline in TGS was packed. In one chapter he's simply sitting around struggling with his sanity, and in the other chapter he gets collared by Semirage, accesses the True Power, destroys her, and grows even more insane than ever. In the third he eradicates Graendal's hideout. In the fourth he fails to establish a truce with the Seanchan, after which Tuon names herself empress. This is good. We see Rand do things that need to be done, and see how his personality evolves (or devolves) under pressure. Most of the exploits undertaken by Rand in TGS were complete and utter failures, which logically follows from the suicidal attitude that he developed in himself over the course of the series. This is important.

 

In CoT we have five chapters devoted to Elaine. At the start of the storyline Elaine sits around in the palace, pondering her queenhood. At the end of the storyline Elaine sits around in the place, pondering her queenhood. Nothing happened in between. She took a bath, saw a midwife, talked with random people, sipped wine. We do not need to see this. It's minutia. If fantasy novels were written that way, the first ten chapters of each book would be devoted to the main character getting off his bed, brushing his teeth, putting on his boots, and eating breakfast. CoT is a written equivalent of 2001: A Space Odyssey, except the space odyssey actually has a segment where things start to happen, progress along unforeseen lines, and reach their logical conclusion (HAL). CoT does not. It's a failure.

[shortkut]

the split into three was totally unnecessary.

this is one of the stupidest things i have read. even if you removed scenes like hinderstrap, there is still too much plot development happening and threads to tie up for it to fit into one book and not read like an outline/summary... unless you think BS had the gravitas to win the fight with tor that RJ hinted would come. Seriously, reread what you said and what it would mean.

 

Reading comprehension much? I said fitting it into one would have been a long shot but the split into three is unnecessary. What does that leave us with? Need help with the math?

it was as unnecessary as the decision to have the series become a series instead of a 12,000+ page novel. the logic and reasoning would be the same. I know you seem to be lacking here, but let me help:

reasons why the three should be as one

1. RJ wanted it that way

2. it is one story (debateable)

- reason against: too much info and too many pages

 

reasons the whole series should be one book

1. it is one story (debateable)

-reason against: too much info and too many pages

 

seriously,to you argue just to argue? do you love the sound of your own voice so much that you love it in print too?

 

What are you even on about with this last post?

 

Ok let's take it slow. The discussion is about how many extra books RJ would have written were he the author. My claim was two as opposed to the three BS did and that a three way split was unnecessary. Not once did I say he could have done it in one.

 

Now not sure why you would presume categorize my post or why my opinion would be any different than any other in this thread?

 

Lastly how come so eggy mate? For some reason you have been personally attackIng me just about ever since I became aware of your existence on these boards. It comes across as exceedingly peevish and small. Stick to the topic please.

if you flat out said 2 books then i apologize. all i saw was you say one book would be unlikely but three was unnecessary. that implies the goal is to squeeze it into one book. my counterpoint was that a split was necessary. the fuller world that we are used to from RJ is only possible in a split book. a small pov from alliandre, while unnecessary is the type of thing RJ has put in earlier books to fill things out and make the world more real

 

everytime we disagree you take small subtle potshots at me "Need help with the math?" and others in the other threads that i will not waste my time trying to find. many times i ignore them, but if you act like a dick or an arrogant prick i will response either in kind or i will treat you like you are one of those adjectives.

[Suttree]

l

we disagree you take small subtle potshots at me "Need help with the math?" and others in the other threads that i will not waste my time trying to find. many times i ignore them, but if you act like a dick or an arrogant prick i will response either in kind or i will treat you like you are one of those adjectives.

 

No no no. Don't even try to go there. When I jumped online last night you had attacked my smarts anD logic in multiple threads. I can pull the time stamps as proof if you like. It was to the point that people were PMing asking what your deal was. In fact going back months to the first time I became aware of your handle you did the same to the point that I've wondered if it were trolling.

 

Even here after I asked you to focus on the books you have come back with more of the same. You know very well the "math" joke(which is the only thing you could spin as a potshot) came well after numerous posts by you across two threads. What is worse you try to blame misconstruing what I said on me(again with presuming to tell me what I am implying even after other posters have explained it to you). That's not how it works.

 

Lastly I have many spirited debates here at DM. some of the people I seem to disagree with the most vehemently I still consider friends. In this thread alone you have proven that how you perceive certain posts isn't necessarily what is being said. It's not up to you to try and be some vigilante. Proving someone wrong is a far cry from posting flat out personnel attacks. You have crossed far over the line.

[Mr Ares]

RJ's stated reason for not wanting to split the book was that he felt that he couldn't write two decent novels out of it. He could write one coherent book and one incoherent book, or two semi-coherent books, but not two coherent books. An exaggeration, perhaps, but I feel that there is some merit to what he says, in regards to TGS and TOM. Take, for example, the Two Tams in TOM. A problem of timelines crossing over despite being out of sync. More of the Perrin stuff should have been in TGS - but that leaves TGS more full, less in ToM, and so on. He didn't see a good way to split the books, and while his view might have changed had he had time to write the story, elements of the split come across as hamfisted and are problematic. Writing it as one book and then splitting the book in two at a convenient point - a decent cliffhanger chapter - might well have been a better solution.

 

Also, saying the only thing that happens in CoT is Egwene getting captured is a ludicrous exaggeration.

[Wool-headed lummox]

saying the only thing that happens in CoT is Egwene getting captured is a ludicrous exaggeration

You're free to provide any other events that happened in CoT.

[Mr Ares]

saying the only thing that happens in CoT is Egwene getting captured is a ludicrous exaggeration

You're free to provide any other events that happened in CoT.

Perrin gave up the axe for the hammer.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

[Agitel]

Crossroads of Twilight is only the first half of a single story that was too big to fit into a single volume. The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart should also be treated as a pair. Considering CoT as a standalone is pointless. The volume itself isn't filler, it just doesn't reach a conclusion, which is a solid complaint. The thought that books need to be bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-BANG (constant plot gratification) is just plain laughable, though. CoT is set up and a novel focused on characters. Jordan could have trimmed the series down but reducing the number of subplots, but that would have to have been done long before CoT was written. Filler is material added in simply to take up space and stretch it out. That's not what CoT is about. Jordan felt these plotlines needed to be fleshed out. Can you criticize him for his story being too bloated? Yeah, that's within your rights and to some degree there's a solid point there. But that's not the same as filler material.

 

Anyway, just to have: http://library.tarva...t:_Plot_Summary

[Suttree]

Crossroads of Twilight is only the first half of a single story that was too big to fit into a single volume. The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart should also be treated as a pair. Considering CoT as a standalone is pointless. The volume itself isn't filler, it just doesn't reach a conclusion, which is a solid complaint. The thought that books need to be bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-BANG (constant plot gratification) is just plain laughable, though. CoT is set up and a novel focused on characters. Jordan could have trimmed the series down but reducing the number of subplots, but that would have to have been done long before CoT was written. Filler is material added in simply to take up space and stretch it out. That's not what CoT is about. Jordan felt these plotlines needed to be fleshed out. Can you criticize him for his story being too bloated? Yeah, that's within your rights and to some degree there's a solid point there. But that's not the same as filler material.

 

Anyway, just to have: http://library.tarva...t:_Plot_Summary

 

Not sure why some people have an issue making that distinction.

[jwood01]

Yeah it seems that after tFoH, RJ started to write longer books, i.e.,

 

LoC+aCoS can basically be viewed as one book.

 

aPoD+WH can basically be viewed as one book.

 

CoT+KoD can be basically viewed as one book.

[shortkut]

l

we disagree you take small subtle potshots at me "Need help with the math?" and others in the other threads that i will not waste my time trying to find. many times i ignore them, but if you act like a dick or an arrogant prick i will response either in kind or i will treat you like you are one of those adjectives.

 

No no no. Don't even try to go there. When I jumped online last night you had attacked my smarts anD logic in multiple threads. I can pull the time stamps as proof if you like. It was to the point that people were PMing asking what your deal was. In fact going back months to the first time I became aware of your handle you did the same to the point that I've wondered if it were trolling.

 

Even here after I asked you to focus on the books you have come back with more of the same. You know very well the "math" joke(which is the only thing you could spin as a potshot) came well after numerous posts by you across two threads. What is worse you try to blame misconstruing what I said on me(again with presuming to tell me what I am implying even after other posters have explained it to you). That's not how it works.

 

Lastly I have many spirited debates here at DM. some of the people I seem to disagree with the most vehemently I still consider friends. In this thread alone you have proven that how you perceive certain posts isn't necessarily what is being said. It's not up to you to try and be some vigilante. Proving someone wrong is a far cry from posting flat out personnel attacks. You have crossed far over the line.

to be honest you started months ago. overall i tend to agree with your theories and your ideas over most people i see here, however, i hate the way you argue or bring about your point. maybe i've been a little stressed the past few days, maybe not, but i don't care enough to even attempt to troll you r anyone else here. there wer ecomments that i felt were subtle shots at me and i felt enough is enough. if you wanted to post like that, then i could join in that dance as well.

 

if you feel i stepped over the line, then fine. i'll try to tone it down.

 

you cannot however ignore my correction of your argument here. i know what you were trying to say, and it is actually my opinion of the WT as well. the WT's mission statement is to prevent the shadow from rising, and there are many examples of them doing so. however, their willful ignorance and denial of the BA has allowed the BA to flourish and to perform evil deeds under the guise of being AS, and as such, the WT is responsible for those actions. any outsider would see those actions as being actions of an AS and that is all that matters. in 10 seconds i made a more concise and less flawed argument of your point. in this thread you were being hypocritical by only allowing actions that were inline with the WT's mission statement and denying the BA as being AS. we cannot have it both ways.

 

tl'dr: i'll tone it down and my only problems are with your arguing style. i even had a disagreement with terez about how she constructed one of her arguments and we seem to have come to an understanding after that.

 

side note: it is nearly impossible for me to post with quotes because i think only 5 posts by me have not been made from a non-smartphone with basic and intermittent internet

[Suttree]

you cannot however ignore my correction of your argument here. i know what you were trying to say, and it is actually my opinion of the WT as well. the WT's mission statement is to prevent the shadow from rising, and there are many examples of them doing so. however, their willful ignorance and denial of the BA has allowed the BA to flourish and to perform evil deeds under the guise of being AS, and as such, the WT is responsible for those actions. any outsider would see those actions as being actions of an AS and that is all that matters. in 10 seconds i made a more concise and less flawed argument of your point. in this thread you were being hypocritical by only allowing actions that were inline with the WT's mission statement and denying the BA as being AS. we cannot have it both ways.

 

Don't worry about it and sorry you've been stressed. Hope whatever it is blows over. As for the above think you meant this to go in the Seanchan and AoL thread. A ton has been posted since then but Mr Ares directly addressed your post here.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/73380-seanchan-and-the-aol/page__st__120?do=findComment&comment=2488837

[shortkut]

you cannot however ignore my correction of your argument here. i know what you were trying to say, and it is actually my opinion of the WT as well. the WT's mission statement is to prevent the shadow from rising, and there are many examples of them doing so. however, their willful ignorance and denial of the BA has allowed the BA to flourish and to perform evil deeds under the guise of being AS, and as such, the WT is responsible for those actions. any outsider would see those actions as being actions of an AS and that is all that matters. in 10 seconds i made a more concise and less flawed argument of your point. in this thread you were being hypocritical by only allowing actions that were inline with the WT's mission statement and denying the BA as being AS. we cannot have it both ways.

 

Don't worry about it and sorry you've been stressed. Hope whatever it is blows over. As for the above think you meant this to go in the Seanchan and AoL thread. A ton has been posted since then but Mr Ares directly addressed your post here.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/73380-seanchan-and-the-aol/page__st__120?do=findComment&comment=2488837

now that that is settled, thanks and i did mean to post there. all these tangents in these threads get confusing

[shortkut]

you cannot however ignore my correction of your argument here. i know what you were trying to say, and it is actually my opinion of the WT as well. the WT's mission statement is to prevent the shadow from rising, and there are many examples of them doing so. however, their willful ignorance and denial of the BA has allowed the BA to flourish and to perform evil deeds under the guise of being AS, and as such, the WT is responsible for those actions. any outsider would see those actions as being actions of an AS and that is all that matters. in 10 seconds i made a more concise and less flawed argument of your point. in this thread you were being hypocritical by only allowing actions that were inline with the WT's mission statement and denying the BA as being AS. we cannot have it both ways.

 

Don't worry about it and sorry you've been stressed. Hope whatever it is blows over. As for the above think you meant this to go in the Seanchan and AoL thread. A ton has been posted since then but Mr Ares directly addressed your post here.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/73380-seanchan-and-the-aol/page__st__120?do=findComment&comment=2488837

now that that is settled, thanks and i did mean to post there. all these tangents in these threads get confusing

[ironisles]

Crossroads of Twilight is only the first half of a single story that was too big to fit into a single volume. The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart should also be treated as a pair. Considering CoT as a standalone is pointless. The volume itself isn't filler, it just doesn't reach a conclusion, which is a solid complaint. The thought that books need to be bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-BANG (constant plot gratification) is just plain laughable, though. CoT is set up and a novel focused on characters. Jordan could have trimmed the series down but reducing the number of subplots, but that would have to have been done long before CoT was written. Filler is material added in simply to take up space and stretch it out. That's not what CoT is about. Jordan felt these plotlines needed to be fleshed out. Can you criticize him for his story being too bloated? Yeah, that's within your rights and to some degree there's a solid point there. But that's not the same as filler material.

 

Anyway, just to have: http://library.tarva...t:_Plot_Summary

 

Alright a few things did occur, mostly it's about Elayne taking baths, Elayne's politics, Aes Sedai politics, Perrin's " Nothing else matters" etc etc. When you wait two years to get a book, and you get CoT, it tends to make one cranky. It was what 4 years between Winter's heart until KoD came out. And the books before that weren't exactly pulitzer prize winner's either.

[Clouded]

Brandon said RJ wrote CoT that way because of catching so much grief on Mat not being in tPoD.

 

Brandon explained the decision to split the books this way came about between Harriet and him, in part to avoid the "Crossroads of Twilight trap". Apparently, RJ went that way in Winter's Heart/Crossroads of Twilight mostly because he had been affected by all the grief he got for keeping Mat out of The Path of Daggers. He decided to try to put all the main characters in the next books, even if it meant all the story lines would advance more slowly if they were all told in parallel like this. He very much regretted this after Crossroads of Twilight, for which he got even more grief than for The Path of Daggers, and decided to return to his more organic/uneven approach for Knife of Dreams and A Memory of Light. The original plan for The Gathering Storm was to develop all the story lines in parallel again, but Brandon and Harriet had qualms about this and Brandon came up with an alternative to focus on two story lines in one and three in the other.

 

Link

[shortkut]

CoT is a book that is importamt to read the first time and if you are trying to look for clues. if you are on a speed reread of the series most can be safely skipped. while PoD is also the first half of a book, it gets better on subsequent rereads. CoT gets more frustrating