Looking for a quick explanation on the Eye of the World.

[Morsker]

Interesting theory...but how/why would a collected lot of pure saidin (collected almost like a well ter'angreal...without the actual well) be able to 'unlock' the memories of Lews Therin? My impression was that it was just pure saidin, and moiraine was taking the fellars there to see which one of them could channel it, or did i miss something?

I know know why, but the Choden Kal let Rand do it on Dragonmount. Integration with LTT may have been more psychological than metaphysical, but it's not all that happened. Rand got access to all his past lives, and it was channeling huge amounts of power through the CK that did that.

[DaoineSidhe]

** Clarification: I read the original thoughts behind this theory on DM awhile ago, but cannot find that post atm. Apologies for not giving credit for the genesis of the idea to the proper person, although I have added my own thoughts and details behind the theory.**

 

Outside of holding and keeping safe certain important relics like the Horn, the Banner, and a Seal, the Eye of the World is actually an early indication of how to re-seal/re-build the DO's prison. We have seen from Rand Sedai's thoughts that the primary problem with LTT's plan was that they had to touch the DO with saidin directly. As a result, this gave the DO a direct conduit, from the weaves touching him, through the 100 Companions channeling those weaves, and into the entire pool of saidin, allowing him to cause the taint. This is the problem that Rand Sedai is currently trying to tackle, to figure out what to touch to the DO's prison.

 

Now let's go back to the past, to when the some of the last remaining AoL Aes Sedai (meaning both male and female) decided to make the Eye of the World. We know that these Aes Sedai already had some notion of what the world would face in the future, given the creation of the Stone/placing Callandor there, to the sending away of the Aiel, and to the creation of the Eye of the World. Now obviously, one reason for the creation of the Eye was to keep two important relics safe until needed, and just as importantly, keep them together. The Horn doesn't work without the Banner there, and so given what happened to the other Seals (lost during the Trolloc Wars for the most part), it seems that it would have been paramount to find a way to keep these safe, and together, for when they were needed. By storing them within the Eye, which would presumably not be used until the time of the Last Battle, they ensured both their safety and that they stayed together, thus fulfilling one important, if only tertiary, role of the Eye of the World.

 

In addition, I would say that its quite probable that one of the biggest priorities for the AoL Aes Sedai would have been to figure out 1)what caused the taint, and 2)how to fix it. From all evidence, they were unable to come up with a way to fix it (given that saidin is still tainted during Rand's Age). However, I do think they figured out what exactly caused it (not just the 'DO did it', but the actual mechanism of the tainting), and knowing that his prison would weaken again, worked on a way to counter/solve this problem. Eventually, I think they solved this problem. The solution? Creating a “pool” of the One Power, and use this “reserve” source of the One Power to weave the DO's prison shut again. This would stop the DO's taint from reaching the overall source of the One Power, thus keeping the True Source clean. Of course, the person channeling will still feel the impact of the DO's counter-stroke, but let's be honest, Rand isn't really expected to come out of this battle alive, now is he? Great, you AoL Aes Sedai have figured out what caused the taint, and how to stop it from happening the next time! Hindsight really is always 20/20.

 

But wait a minute? They haven't solved the immediate problem of the taint, they've only solved a long distant problem. Important, of course, but one that they won't be asked to solve, either.

 

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

 

It appears that the Shadow did eventually figure out the Eye's true purpose, because Ishamael's primary goals in Book 1 seem to be turning the ta'veren (necessary for total victory of the DO), and as he states himself, “blinding the Eye of the World”. The problem is, the Dragon Reborn saw the Eye, and used it, before the Shadow was able to blind it. Now all that is needed is for Rand Sedai to think of the Eye, and his use of it, for him to realize that it is the key to sealing the Bore. Moraine seems like a likely candidate to remind Rand Sedai of this, but that's just me. I also tend to think the introduction of Nynaeve and Cadsuane's “wells” into the story, and their use while unable to access the True Source (overall pool of One Power), is a further hint by the author to indicate this.

[mwayneknight]

** Clarification: I read the original thoughts behind this theory on DM awhile ago, but cannot find that post atm. Apologies for not giving credit for the genesis of the idea to the proper person, although I have added my own thoughts and details behind the theory.**

 

Outside of holding and keeping safe certain important relics like the Horn, the Banner, and a Seal, the Eye of the World is actually an early indication of how to re-seal/re-build the DO's prison. We have seen from Rand Sedai's thoughts that the primary problem with LTT's plan was that they had to touch the DO with saidin directly. As a result, this gave the DO a direct conduit, from the weaves touching him, through the 100 Companions channeling those weaves, and into the entire pool of saidin, allowing him to cause the taint. This is the problem that Rand Sedai is currently trying to tackle, to figure out what to touch to the DO's prison.

 

Now let's go back to the past, to when the some of the last remaining AoL Aes Sedai (meaning both male and female) decided to make the Eye of the World. We know that these Aes Sedai already had some notion of what the world would face in the future, given the creation of the Stone/placing Callandor there, to the sending away of the Aiel, and to the creation of the Eye of the World. Now obviously, one reason for the creation of the Eye was to keep two important relics safe until needed, and just as importantly, keep them together. The Horn doesn't work without the Banner there, and so given what happened to the other Seals (lost during the Trolloc Wars for the most part), it seems that it would have been paramount to find a way to keep these safe, and together, for when they were needed. By storing them within the Eye, which would presumably not be used until the time of the Last Battle, they ensured both their safety and that they stayed together, thus fulfilling one important, if only tertiary, role of the Eye of the World.

 

In addition, I would say that its quite probable that one of the biggest priorities for the AoL Aes Sedai would have been to figure out 1)what caused the taint, and 2)how to fix it. From all evidence, they were unable to come up with a way to fix it (given that saidin is still tainted during Rand's Age). However, I do think they figured out what exactly caused it (not just the 'DO did it', but the actual mechanism of the tainting), and knowing that his prison would weaken again, worked on a way to counter/solve this problem. Eventually, I think they solved this problem. The solution? Creating a “pool” of the One Power, and use this “reserve” source of the One Power to weave the DO's prison shut again. This would stop the DO's taint from reaching the overall source of the One Power, thus keeping the True Source clean. Of course, the person channeling will still feel the impact of the DO's counter-stroke, but let's be honest, Rand isn't really expected to come out of this battle alive, now is he? Great, you AoL Aes Sedai have figured out what caused the taint, and how to stop it from happening the next time! Hindsight really is always 20/20.

 

But wait a minute? They haven't solved the immediate problem of the taint, they've only solved a long distant problem. Important, of course, but one that they won't be asked to solve, either.

 

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

 

It appears that the Shadow did eventually figure out the Eye's true purpose, because Ishamael's primary goals in Book 1 seem to be turning the ta'veren (necessary for total victory of the DO), and as he states himself, “blinding the Eye of the World”. The problem is, the Dragon Reborn saw the Eye, and used it, before the Shadow was able to blind it. Now all that is needed is for Rand Sedai to think of the Eye, and his use of it, for him to realize that it is the key to sealing the Bore. Moraine seems like a likely candidate to remind Rand Sedai of this, but that's just me. I also tend to think the introduction of Nynaeve and Cadsuane's “wells” into the story, and their use while unable to access the True Source (overall pool of One Power), is a further hint by the author to indicate this.

 

Dude thats pertty sweet. Thanks

[TLHansum]

Also the eye ('pure saidin') is foreshadowing the possibility of cleansing saidin, and is where Rand probably originally started thinking 'How did they clean that bit of Saidin, and how can i do that to all Saidin?"

[Knivy]

That solves the taint, but not the weakening of the patch....

[Agitel]

Isn't the simplest explanation that the Eye was intended to be used to train the Dragon Reborn? The relics left there imply that it was intended for his use. With saidin tainted, the Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that it could be catastrophic if the Dragon was driven mad before he could complete his duty. Using the Eye, he'd be able to train with pure, untainted saidin and not be driven mad.

[thisguy]

Sorry, I haven't finished what you wrote up there yet but - I don't believe that LTT's Dragon Banner needs to be with the Horn for the Horn to work - at all.

[thisguy]

Isn't the simplest explanation that the Eye was intended to be used to train the Dragon Reborn? The relics left there imply that it was intended for his use. With saidin tainted, the Aes Sedai of the Breaking era knew that it could be catastrophic if the Dragon was driven mad before he could complete his duty. Using the Eye he'd be able to train with pure, untainted saidin, and not be driven mad.

 

That sounds about right.

[mwayneknight]

Sorry, I haven't finished what you wrote up there yet but - I don't believe that LTT's Dragon Banner needs to be with the Horn for the Horn to work - at all.

 

In The Great Hunt didnt Hawkwing say something about that they can not move forward if the Dragon banner was not there?

[Zorlon]

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

They couldn't leave a note at the bottom of the well? They left a horn and a flag, would it have been so hard to scribble a few instructions?

 

I mean yeah getting lucky and having the Dragon possess the benefit of past knowledge would make it more likely to be deciphered, but you know what would have made it even more likely than that? A #%@$ing note.

[thisguy]

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

They couldn't leave a note at the bottom of the well? They left a horn and a flag, would it have been so hard to scribble a few instructions?

 

I mean yeah getting lucky and having the Dragon possess the benefit of past knowledge would make it more likely to be deciphered, but you know what would have made it even more likely than that? A #%@$ing note.

 

This is hilarious. "You couldn't leave us maybe a little note, maybe a nice piece of pie. You know we've traveled far to get here. Why not some pie?"

I agree with you, and thanks for the laugh.

[Agitel]

Sorry, I haven't finished what you wrote up there yet but - I don't believe that LTT's Dragon Banner needs to be with the Horn for the Horn to work - at all.

 

In The Great Hunt didnt Hawkwing say something about that they can not move forward if the Dragon banner was not there?

 

The need for the Dragon Banner was part of the Wheel's demand for that particular moment, not for every use of the Horn. Well, it's hard to say, as the Horn's purpose was not always what it is now, and we don't know what's happening next time it's blown, but Hawking was talking about that particular moment in time, because it was when the Wheel first recognized the Dragon Reborn, and the Wheel cast the false ones down.

[TommyRocker]

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

Question

 

New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

Robert Jordan

 

In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

Did anyone bother telling Nynaeve about this?

[Suttree]

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

Question

 

New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

Robert Jordan

 

In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

Did anyone bother telling Nynaeve about this?

 

I see it as a technical difference. "Removing" the taint with the op is different than "healing" insanity.

[MasterAblar]

Interview: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

Question

 

New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

Robert Jordan

 

In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

Did anyone bother telling Nynaeve about this?

 

Nyneave cares not for the Creator's rules.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

They couldn't leave a note at the bottom of the well? They left a horn and a flag, would it have been so hard to scribble a few instructions?

 

I mean yeah getting lucky and having the Dragon possess the benefit of past knowledge would make it more likely to be deciphered, but you know what would have made it even more likely than that? A #%@$ing note.

LOL. Those old AS remind me of my wife.

[Vardar]

The problem now is, how to communicate that solution to the necessary generation when the world faces this problem again? All organizations within their society are disintegrating, with overal civilization about to enter into a steep decline for a llooooonnnggg time. Any written records would be dubious to survive the immediate cataclysm occurring at the time, much less the ensuing years until the world faced this issue again. This is too important, and could fall into the wrong hands too easily, to communicate it that way. What if they created a “prototype” though? And then set a nigh-immortal being to guard it for future generations, hopefully ensuring that it isn't “used up” before its time? A few would know that it contained “pure saidin”, but not its purpose. This would hopefully keep the Shadow from realizing what exactly it was for, allowing it to continue to survive and not be the #1 priority target for the Shadow between the War of Power and Tarmon Gai'den.

 

In addition, if, as seems somewhat likely, those Aes Sedai knew that the Dragon Reborn would have the memories of LTT synched into his own (which is shown by the Borderlander Prophecy), then this would make it more likely that the Dragon Reborn would be able to “decipher” the meaning of this prototype, and figure out how to seal the DO's prison shut without a backlash.

They couldn't leave a note at the bottom of the well? They left a horn and a flag, would it have been so hard to scribble a few instructions?

 

I mean yeah getting lucky and having the Dragon possess the benefit of past knowledge would make it more likely to be deciphered, but you know what would have made it even more likely than that? A #%@$ing note.

 

Crap that's epic!!!

 

 

The Horn doesn't work without the Banner there, and so given what happened to the other Seals (lost during the Trolloc Wars for the most part), it seems that it would have been paramount to find a way to keep these safe, and together, for when they were needed. By storing them within the Eye, which would presumably not be used until the time of the Last Battle, they ensured both their safety and that they stayed together, thus fulfilling one important, if only tertiary, role of the Eye of the World.

 

No the horn works without the banner. If the banner is there with the horn is blown, they have to follow the banner. I took that to mean if a DF had blown the horn, and Rand and the banner were present, they'd still follow Rand.

[Morsker]

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

...

In the Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity.

Did anyone bother telling Nynaeve about this?

I could make excuses for it. The quotes from RJ are paraphrased, so it's possible he gave an Aes Sedai answer that went over the reporter's head, and the subtleties of it weren't reported.

 

But I think Brandon changed this, as part of changing Compulsion. Brandon lets the Compulsion weaves themselves carry instructions, while RJ only had the weave create an emotional and cognitive bias that the channeler then exploited, in a manner like post-hypnotic suggestion. When RJ-Graendel destroys someone's mind, it's like a permanent drug overdose. When Brandon-Graendel destroys someone's mind, it's like Babylon 5 Psi Corp.

 

It could be both. Maybe RJ wanted madness healed, but didn't say how, and Brandon knew readers would be disappointed without a "how" so he kludged in the Compulsion parallels.

[Clouded]

I don't think Brandon would retcon such a major rule of the book without RJ's approval. I don't think Team Jordan would approve such a change without evidence. My guess is that there is notes hinting that RJ wanted taint-induced insanity healed.

 

Plus, as Suttree said, it could be a distinction. The One Power cannot heal insanity, but it can remove the taint affliction, which causes insanity.

 

Edit: Always double check your posts to make sure they make sense, people.

[TristanWebb]

Ishamael says in the EotW prologue that the sisters might be able to give him a few minutes if it didn't destroy him first, so from the start taint insanity could be somewhat healed, but with the taint still on Saidin it would just come rolling back.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Plus, as Suttree said, it could be a distinction. The One Power cannot heal insanity, but it can remove the taint affliction, which causes insanity.

That's like saying "you can't cure infection, but you can kill off the bacteria that cause the infection". Removing the cause of the affliction is tantamount to removing the affliction, there is no distinction.

 

Brandon lets the Compulsion weaves themselves carry instructions, while RJ only had the weave create an emotional and cognitive bias that the channeler then exploited, in a manner like post-hypnotic suggestion

I'm not sure that this is true. Verin used a weak, makeshift version of the Compulsion weave that she scrambled on her own, not the same one that the Forsaken use. I don't remember if Jordan ever described somebody use Compulsion properly, but I think he didn't, and the difference between Verin's Compulsion and Graendal's compulsion are intended.

[Clouded]

Plus, as Suttree said, it could be a distinction. The One Power cannot heal insanity, but it can remove the taint affliction, which causes insanity.

That's like saying "you can't cure infection, but you can kill off the bacteria that cause the infection". Removing the cause of the affliction is tantamount to removing the affliction, there is no distinction.

 

Ehh, if you want to take it that way, feel free. I'm just trying to reconcile RJ's quote with what has happened. I view it more as, "You can't cure the symptoms, but you can cure the cause."

 

Another way to reconcile the RJ's quote, that I've heard from others, is to say the Nyneave technically did not use the Healing weave. So, technically, the One Power was not used to Heal insanity.

[Suttree]

Plus, as Suttree said, it could be a distinction. The One Power cannot heal insanity, but it can remove the taint affliction, which causes insanity.

That's like saying "you can't cure infection, but you can kill off the bacteria that cause the infection". Removing the cause of the affliction is tantamount to removing the affliction, there is no distinction.

 

Ehh, if you want to take it that way, feel free. I'm just trying to reconcile RJ's quote with what has happened. I view it more as, "You can't cure the symptoms, but you can cure the cause."

 

Another way to reconcile the RJ's quote, that I've heard from others, is to say the Nyneave technically did not use the Healing weave. So, technically, the One Power was not used to Heal insanity.

 

She ia removing magical hooks from their brain. No sense trying to use a real world analogy and that would presumably be far different from using a healing weave to cure insanity.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Ehh, if you want to take it that way, feel free. I'm just trying to reconcile RJ's quote with what has happened. I view it more as, "You can't cure the symptoms, but you can cure the cause."

If Robert Jordan wanted to say "you can't cure the symptoms of insanity, but you can cure the cause", he wouldn't have said "We saw True Power used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity". He didn't refer to any specific way of healing insanity, he simply ruled out the concept in a general way.

 

That's just simple logic. If someone says "I don't have a driver's license", you don't take it to mean that they don't have an automobile driver's license, but can drive a motorcycle. If no specific category is mentioned, the statement simply means "I can't drive any sort of vehicle", period. If RJ didn't specify which aspect of insanity can't be healed with the One Power (the symptom or the cause), then no aspect of insanity can be healed with the One Power. He either changed his mind later on, or Brandon Sanderson changed it for him. Fanwanking isn't helping anyone, authors make mistakes and change their minds just like all people do.

 

Another way to reconcile the RJ's quote, that I've heard from others, is to say the Nyneave technically did not use the Healing weave. So, technically, the One Power was not used to Heal insanity.

This logic doesn't work even on a purely technical level. Nyneave didn't use the healing weave (neither the traditional air+water+spirit weave, nor her own all five powers weave) to restore Logain's, Suian's and Leane's channeling ability, she used a weave of fire and spirit. Does that mean the One Power can't be used to Heal gentling/stilling? The actual weave used is unimportant, what's important is that someone had an affliction, and Nyneave healed it. With the One Power. The books even used Healing with a capital H, referring to healing both the madness, and the severing.

[Agitel]

There's also the possibility that the attributed quote, which is only a paraphrase, is poorly paraphrased.