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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Transcript of Chapter One Reading From ComicCon


Luckers

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How it happened? That's obvious enough, isn't it? Shadowspawn came out of the Waygate and set it on fire. Perhaps Darkfriend set it on fire. It's not a big mystery.

 

The whole "Shadowspawn army travelling through the ways when we've been told for how many books that they have to travel in small packs, not to mention how small the actual gate is and what a chokepoint it would make for an army trying to get through it into a well populated city" bothers me. A lot.

 

I argued the same as vociferously as anyone before TOM, at which point I bowed to the arguments that channelers have ways to control Machin Shin, as Liandrin implied in TGH. Slayer did not, and Fain did not, but they are not channelers. Fain eventually developed his own way of dealing with Machin Shin, but he didn't have that ability when he originally brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers, and he was not the one bringing them in TSR.

 

Liandrin was black ajah, and lied, imo. Moriene said the same thing though, channeling in the ways i tainted. The only onscreen example we have of channeling in the ways came out tainted.

 

And regardless it still ignores the physical limitations of the act. So while I concede that some new way of controlling Machin Shin could have been discovered (Maybe even just using True Power vs OP), I still don't get the whole city burning from them running in through a doorway wide enough for what, 2 of them at once. (I look at how long it takes to evacuate my office building and shake my head, and we have multiple doors)

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How it happened? That's obvious enough, isn't it? Shadowspawn came out of the Waygate and set it on fire. Perhaps Darkfriend set it on fire. It's not a big mystery.

 

The whole "Shadowspawn army travelling through the ways when we've been told for how many books that they have to travel in small packs, not to mention how small the actual gate is and what a chokepoint it would make for an army trying to get through it into a well populated city" bothers me. A lot.

 

 

Your point about the gate being small is valid...It makes me think maybe the shadow used some beings other than trollocks,creatures that could cause big damage...that combined with darkfriends in Caemlyn could cause a lot of trouble...

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The size of the gate doesn't matter much either. And they might have learned something from Bashere's and Mat's plan for the raid on Illian. They got thousands of Saldaean horse through a single 4pc-by-4pc gateway in minutes.

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How it happened? That's obvious enough, isn't it? Shadowspawn came out of the Waygate and set it on fire. Perhaps Darkfriend set it on fire. It's not a big mystery.

 

The whole "Shadowspawn army travelling through the ways when we've been told for how many books that they have to travel in small packs, not to mention how small the actual gate is and what a chokepoint it would make for an army trying to get through it into a well populated city" bothers me. A lot.

 

I argued the same as vociferously as anyone before TOM, at which point I bowed to the arguments that channelers have ways to control Machin Shin, as Liandrin implied in TGH. Slayer did not, and Fain did not, but they are not channelers. Fain eventually developed his own way of dealing with Machin Shin, but he didn't have that ability when he originally brought the Trollocs to the Two Rivers, and he was not the one bringing them in TSR.

 

Liandrin was black ajah, and lied, imo.

 

And yet, she seemed reasonably confident about it, and they never encountered Machin Shin.

 

Moriene said the same thing though, channeling in the ways i tainted.

 

It's tainted, but it works.

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Machin Shin- I dont think this is an oversight or change of the rules. Two theories-

 

1.Machin Shin is still following Rand around, so the Ways are safe unless you blunder into whichever gate Rand is nearest to or have extraordinary bad luck to meet it in transit.

 

2.The Dark does have some kind of control over Machin Shin, and has been careful to avoid tipping its hand on that waiting for just this moment when nobody thinks its possible (well, Rand in fact did. Rather bad luck that he trusted to some bricks and a few guards instead of trapping the waygate like he did so many others).

 

On the wine- pick 10 wine experts and you'll get 10 different reactions to 10 different bottles of wine (at least if the label isnt shown).

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How it happened? That's obvious enough, isn't it? Shadowspawn came out of the Waygate and set it on fire. Perhaps Darkfriend set it on fire. It's not a big mystery.

 

The whole "Shadowspawn army travelling through the ways when we've been told for how many books that they have to travel in small packs, not to mention how small the actual gate is and what a chokepoint it would make for an army trying to get through it into a well populated city" bothers me. A lot.

 

I quite agree. Neither does it agree with what Talmanes saw when he looked at Caemlyn after Olver read Verin's note.. merely a bigger red haze. (ToM Epilogue).

 

Talmanes said the city was burning, and there was never any good reason to doubt that was exactly what he saw.

 

Only the actual text..

 

Compare

 

Talmanes stood just outside the tent, looking eastward. Toward Caemlyn. A reddish haze hung on the horizon, a glow over the city. One larger than had been there on other nights.

 

"Light preserve us," Talmanes whispered. "It's burning. The city is burning."

 

with

 

As the wind approached the grand city of Caemlyn, it turned northward, away from the burning city — orange and red, violent, spewing black smoke toward the hungry clouds above. 

 

Not a lot of resemblance there..

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It doesn't matter. Talmanes saw it just as it had begun burning, and he was far away. And he said it was burning, and he's a battle leader, and he should know what things on fire look like, and we should take his word over our impressions of what a burning city ought to look like.

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He was no more than a league away (ToM8). That's four miles in our units.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Measurement

 

I am using not my impressions of what a burning city should look like, but my own direct experience of what a burning stretch of land looks like from a distance of about five miles. Last year a wooded area near where I live caught fire. The smoke was clearly visible. I didn't see it by night but that smoke would have been well lit by the flames. Talmanes saw none of that. I think his interpretation of what he saw was influenced by Verin's letter; he was expecting to see a burning city - something which, despite his battle experience, he has never in fact seen.

 

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2091922_motorists_urged_to_avoid_roads_near_forest_fire

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It doesn't matter. Talmanes saw it just as it had begun burning, and he was far away. And he said it was burning, and he's a battle leader, and he should know what things on fire look like, and we should take his word over our impressions of what a burning city ought to look like.

 

Bingo. The city is in the process of getting wrecked by Shadowspawn. Arguing over semantics makes this no less true.

 

As for the rest, wine is all about personal taste. Nothing worth nitpicking there. As for Perrin sharing his story of the Two Rivers, that doesn't bother me either.

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I'm going to have to look tonight because I can't remember the timeline but isn't Olver opening Verin's letter a couple weeks beyond when she intended Mat to open it? Its possible the dark forces have been spilling through the Waygate and running roughshod in Camelyn for a couple weeks now.

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Talmanes said the city is burning. The Opening to AMoL says it is burning. Are we really going to nit-pik the colors of the sky?

 

Taren Ferry must had rioting and fires break out as food grew short. It said that people were going east to Andor for food or north to the Last Battle.

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My first thought reading this, "Why is Perrin chatting so casually with Rand and not checking the Dreamspike around the BT?" Not a complaint; but my wish for things to start being resolved from the get go!

I agree, there is so much that needs to fit in this book, although my hopes for it being split again are gone...I have faith in BS cause when it comes to BS he does not bs around...........
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I like the scene, but if Rand and Perrin are going to be catching up, it seems that there are some more relevant specifics they could be discussing.

 

Like, "...she was hiding as your serving woman the whole time, and you didn't know?!" or, "Mat and Thom went to save who???!!!!"

 

Or they could get right to business, "hey, Perrin, how is that new hammer with cuendillar?"

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Woods burn more than a city would. Leaves in the forest would create excess smoke. When a blaze is starting you will sometimes see the glow, especially from a distance, before you see the smoke. At night, the black smoke would only really be visible from close up. I think you are coming up with the flimsiest reasons to justify your initial impression because for some reason you cannot have misinterpreted something. It is ok if the city really is burning and you thought there was some kind of mistake

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I like the scene, but if Rand and Perrin are going to be catching up, it seems that there are some more relevant specifics they could be discussing.

 

Like, "...she was hiding as your serving woman the whole time, and you didn't know?!" or, "Mat and Thom went to save who???!!!!"

 

Or they could get right to business, "hey, Perrin, how is that new hammer with cuendillar?"

I think a lack of communacation has always been the biggest problem for everyone in WOT....and coincedently Rand and Perrin being the biggest culprits.....
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I like the scene, but if Rand and Perrin are going to be catching up, it seems that there are some more relevant specifics they could be discussing.

 

Like, "...she was hiding as your serving woman the whole time, and you didn't know?!" or, "Mat and Thom went to save who???!!!!"

 

Or they could get right to business, "hey, Perrin, how is that new hammer with cuendillar?"

I think a lack of communacation has always been the biggest problem for everyone in WOT....and coincedently Rand and Perrin being the biggest culprits.....

 

Perrin won't tell Rand about Moraine, he has already considered it. He doesn't want to give Rand any false hope.

 

However, other things could be discussed, I agree. But really, it is a few lines out of the first chapter, give them a break.

 

I think the scene is actually perfect, Rand has just woken up from his Cyndane-filled dream. Perrin (according to ToM eoiclogue) was going to check the BT dreamspike. It is possible that he saw or experienced something intense.

 

So they both are a bit shaken, so they take comfort in talking to each other about the "good old days" while not really actually focusing, but using it as a way to keep their mind distracted.

 

Re: Shadowspawn - Gateway. It has been discussed before. There has been no such method we have seen yet, true. However, I would hardly call this development unexpected or irrational.

 

- As mentioned, Liandrin brings it up in tGH, she seems confident she can avoid Machin Shin.

- Machin Shin is acting up and following Rand.

- Fain isn't devoured by Machin Shin (not that it has any real bearing on Caemlyn attack, but just a note of the oddities that have been happening)

- Rand starts sealing waygates to avoid Shadowspawn surprise attacks.

- Someone is moving large forces of Shadowspawn through the Ways (according to Moridin)

- Huge force attacks Rand at Manor (could be via other methods, but still unsure)

- Trollocs randomly turn up near Ebou Dar (again, could be portal stone or something else)

 

It is hardly something I would consider an absolute mockery of the WoT world. Rand cleansed the Taint. The DO brings back his Chosen from the dead. It is not hard to believe that one of the Chosen, or even Black Ajah could have studied and developed a way to move safely through the Ways.

 

Re: width of Gateways etc... Terez has already replied with a valid answer. Also, perhaps it might be easy to guard and hold back a few Trollocs. However, if say, the soldiers were faced with Moghedien or Demandred, it might be a bit harder.

 

I don't know how, and it may be some silly reason that turns out stupid, however, there are plenty of perfectly good reasons.

 

Re - Caemlyn - I agree with Sam.

 

Talmanes says it is burning, Wind says it is burning. back of book says it is overrun. I am sorry, but there is no doubt that Caemlyn has been attacked and at least partially destroyed by Shadowspawn, no matter any inconsistancy there may be with the sky/fire.

 

I would also point out that the sky is not exactly normal at the moment in any case. Besides around Rand and a few select others, who are not in or near Caemlyn at the time, the sky is dominated by DO-induced shadow-cloud. I am not sure if this even matters, but it seems that it would make some difference to the sight of a fire. Like it would be harder to spot smoke on a rainy day than in clear blue sky. (I would say, I have no real experience with fires of this magnitude)

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SamVines - thanks for the opinion on Taren Ferry. Does anyone else have any?

 

I really read it as TF having been wasted in the Book Four "Two Rivers" SL. Which certainly contradicts the thriving TF post-Book Four that was previously mentioned.

 

Also. I cant help but agree with Pilz. Shouldn't the first things out of Perrins mouth upon seeing Rand be:

 

1 Moir.

 

2 Morgase.

 

3 Tuon (being Mats wife).

 

4 The Dream Spike/Events concerning the Black Tower

 

????

 

 

Fish

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And as benevolent cow pointed out, he has been lord for a while now. New things could be ingrained in his head. Complaining over little tiny things that do not really contradict what is always in the books is why i almost never posted even though i lurked a long time before a registered 3 years ago and then after. It takes all the low out of reading and discussing the books. "Ny sniffed twice before tuggni her braid. Normally she only sniffs once. What going on? Is she extra upset? Does BS not understand the character well enough? RJ never would have made a mistake like that"

 

wasn't disagreeing with it coming natural after being a Lord, I was just stating how some people would expect it to still be ingrained a certain way, but I totally agree on the nit picking

 

Yeah... Isn't reading aMoL supposed to make us super happy? Well, I am extatic, forget the wine, Marin or whatever. Rand is back, his thoughts are back, I can enter his head again - that's all that matters :biggrin: Thank you Brandon!

 

this a million times over

 

Talmanes said the city is burning. The Opening to AMoL says it is burning. Are we really going to nit-pik the colors of the sky?

 

Taren Ferry must had rioting and fires break out as food grew short. It said that people were going east to Andor for food or north to the Last Battle.

 

I could write at the end of my first book the sky is blue, and then at the beginning of my second book that it is pink does that mean the second book is wrong? the first book is wrong? both or wrong? not at all, thank you sam for summing that up nicely

 

I like the scene, but if Rand and Perrin are going to be catching up, it seems that there are some more relevant specifics they could be discussing.

 

Like, "...she was hiding as your serving woman the whole time, and you didn't know?!" or, "Mat and Thom went to save who???!!!!"

 

Or they could get right to business, "hey, Perrin, how is that new hammer with cuendillar?"

 

1 I'm sure the Morgase thing is mentioned at some point

2 Rand knowing about Moiraine before seeing her face to face is a really bad idea

3 Perrin's hammer is not cuendillar it is a power wrought hammer as Lan's sword, the Aes Sedai did not lead the weave, so did not break an oath in helping to create it unless you are now claiming that all the ancient power wrought swords are cuendillar which is complete bull as the blades are not white, the ONLY exception to white cuendillar we ever have reference to is the seals half being black and my theory on that is the difference between a male and female making it, but the hammer is power wrought, all (insert correct Ashaman's name here) did was keep the metal at the ideal temperature from the discription, if he had been turning it into cuendillar it would never have been marked with the wolf because I'm pretty sure Perrin does that after completeing it?

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And as benevolent cow pointed out, he has been lord for a while now. New things could be ingrained in his head. Complaining over little tiny things that do not really contradict what is always in the books is why i almost never posted even though i lurked a long time before a registered 3 years ago and then after. It takes all the low out of reading and discussing the books. "Ny sniffed twice before tuggni her braid. Normally she only sniffs once. What going on? Is she extra upset? Does BS not understand the character well enough? RJ never would have made a mistake like that"

 

wasn't disagreeing with it coming natural after being a Lord, I was just stating how some people would expect it to still be ingrained a certain way, but I totally agree on the nit picking

 

Yeah... Isn't reading aMoL supposed to make us super happy? Well, I am extatic, forget the wine, Marin or whatever. Rand is back, his thoughts are back, I can enter his head again - that's all that matters :biggrin: Thank you Brandon!

 

this a million times over

 

Talmanes said the city is burning. The Opening to AMoL says it is burning. Are we really going to nit-pik the colors of the sky?

 

Taren Ferry must had rioting and fires break out as food grew short. It said that people were going east to Andor for food or north to the Last Battle.

 

I could write at the end of my first book the sky is blue, and then at the beginning of my second book that it is pink does that mean the second book is wrong? the first book is wrong? both or wrong? not at all, thank you sam for summing that up nicely

 

I like the scene, but if Rand and Perrin are going to be catching up, it seems that there are some more relevant specifics they could be discussing.

 

Like, "...she was hiding as your serving woman the whole time, and you didn't know?!" or, "Mat and Thom went to save who???!!!!"

 

Or they could get right to business, "hey, Perrin, how is that new hammer with cuendillar?"

 

1 I'm sure the Morgase thing is mentioned at some point

2 Rand knowing about Moiraine before seeing her face to face is a really bad idea

3 Perrin's hammer is not cuendillar it is a power wrought hammer as Lan's sword, the Aes Sedai did not lead the weave, so did not break an oath in helping to create it unless you are now claiming that all the ancient power wrought swords are cuendillar which is complete bull as the blades are not white, the ONLY exception to white cuendillar we ever have reference to is the seals half being black and my theory on that is the difference between a male and female making it, but the hammer is power wrought, all (insert correct Ashaman's name here) did was keep the metal at the ideal temperature from the discription, if he had been turning it into cuendillar it would never have been marked with the wolf because I'm pretty sure Perrin does that after completeing it?

 

Yes, I understood the chapter on Mah'alleinir. I meant, "Perrin, is your new hammer good at breaking cuendillar seals?"

 

I see now that it would be better if Moiraine surprises Rand at a key moment.

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Shouldn't the first things out of Perrins mouth upon seeing Rand be:

 

1 Moir.

 

How many times does this have to be explained (in this very thread!) before people stop asking the same question?

 

1. It would be idiotic, storywise, if one of the biggest scenes in the series is destroyed by Perrin saying "so... Moiraine's gonna come back soon, Rand..."

2. It would be idiotic, logically, for Perrin to mention it. There is no way in hell, upon hearing that Mat is attempting to rescue Moiraine, that Rand wouldn't Travel there immediately and try to "help" him. Perrin is smart enough to know that he shouldn't tell Rand. There's a reason Moiraine only told Thom about it.

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i like that scene, the wine part fits with how LTT character would have been in the AoL, he could have been very particular about his wines, who knows.

 

and caemlyn burning for me makes sense, Talmanes saw it already glowing and fire would have spread quickly with Shadowspawn I assume making their best to help it spread, the confusion would help them attack Caemlyn easily.

 

and i think rand already knows about Morgase being alive at this point, and Perrin made it clear he wouldn't give Rand any hope about Moiraine in case he goes off trying to help.

 

and perrin might not have had time to go to sleep yet to check on the BT, we will have to wait and find out.

 

overall good teaser for me :)

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