My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[Treebeard]

I don't know if it's in lack of taste or superfandom ( i am shamed to admit i hasn't re-read it a single time) but if it had not stood on the front page Brandon Sanderson I would not have notice that the series had two writers , because i thought that the increased tempo was/is due to shortage of space , i mean even with this ( as some say) more skimming style of telling ToM is on forth place on the word count so don't tell me that he is just skipping deep character studies for the fun of it. BTW you try to follow/write in another mans footstep's especially a man who had 11 books to build up the narrative style, so stop complaining and be lucky that someone did take the job otherwise we would be left with 1000 monkeys to write it and it would take an eternity .

[Suttree]

so stop complaining and be lucky that someone did take the job otherwise we would be left with 1000 monkeys to write it and it would take an eternity .

 

See. Right here. This is what I don't understand. How did we reach a place in that reasoned critique of a literary work turns into disrespect for the author or complaining. That stance just blows my mind.

[A. Pseudonym]

Because they're emotionally invested in their point of view and take such criticism personally. This is not at all limited to a fanbase. It permeates everything.

[Maleshub]

But the series is so long because RJ liked to ramble on about stuff that was not so important.

 

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

That reminds me of reading 3 paragraphs (in WH I think) where Elayne dismounts and takes off her riding gloves. Couldn't figure out any purpose for those three paragraphs except that I learned Elayne got off a horse and then took of her gloves.

[avernite]

But the series is so long because RJ liked to ramble on about stuff that was not so important.

 

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

That reminds me of reading 3 paragraphs (in WH I think) where Elayne dismounts and takes off her riding gloves. Couldn't figure out any purpose for those three paragraphs except that I learned Elayne got off a horse and then took of her gloves.

 

It was symbolic for Elayne's need to get off her high horse, so to say?

 

And of course, she'd have to get her own hands dirty for a change. This, my friend, is deep literature ;)

[David Selig]

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

The circus plotline in TFOH is the funniest part of the whole series by a mile for me. It's probably the part I've reread the most, it's pure comedy gold. Pretty good character development for the Supergirls too.

 

Plus a lot of things happened during it so plotwise it's not bad at all in this respect. Birgitte and Nynaeve's confrontation with Moggy in TAR, Birgitte's bonding, the meeting with Galad and Masema, the riots in the city.

[Suttree]

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

The circus plotline in TFOH is the funniest part of the whole series by a mile for me. It's probably the part I've reread the most, it's pure comedy gold. Pretty good character development for the Supergirls too.

 

Plus a lot of things happened during it so plotwise it's not bad at all in this respect. Birgitte and Nynaeve's confrontation with Moggy in TAR, Birgitte's bonding, the meeting with Galad and Masema, the riots in the city.

 

Agreed. The plotline was comedy and a number of cool things went down during that time.

[Maleshub]

But the series is so long because RJ liked to ramble on about stuff that was not so important.

 

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

That reminds me of reading 3 paragraphs (in WH I think) where Elayne dismounts and takes off her riding gloves. Couldn't figure out any purpose for those three paragraphs except that I learned Elayne got off a horse and then took of her gloves.

 

It was symbolic for Elayne's need to get off her high horse, so to say?

 

And of course, she'd have to get her own hands dirty for a change. This, my friend, is deep literature ;)

 

ROFL! You, my esteemed colleague, are an astute literary critic! Next time I read those previously-perceived useless paragraphs, I shall remember your wise words... and appreciate Elayne getting off her horse and taking off her gloves!

[safwd]

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

The circus plotline in TFOH is the funniest part of the whole series by a mile for me. It's probably the part I've reread the most, it's pure comedy gold. Pretty good character development for the Supergirls too.

 

Plus a lot of things happened during it so plotwise it's not bad at all in this respect. Birgitte and Nynaeve's confrontation with Moggy in TAR, Birgitte's bonding, the meeting with Galad and Masema, the riots in the city.

 

Agreed. The plotline was comedy and a number of cool things went down during that time.

 

A lot of cool things did go down during that time. They just could have gone down with alot less pages.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

The circus plotline in TFOH is the funniest part of the whole series by a mile for me. It's probably the part I've reread the most, it's pure comedy gold. Pretty good character development for the Supergirls too.

 

Plus a lot of things happened during it so plotwise it's not bad at all in this respect. Birgitte and Nynaeve's confrontation with Moggy in TAR, Birgitte's bonding, the meeting with Galad and Masema, the riots in the city.

 

Agreed. The plotline was comedy and a number of cool things went down during that time.

 

A lot of cool things did go down during that time. They just could have gone down with alot less pages.

 

I quite enjoyed Cirque du Elayne. I thought it was comedy gold.

[Luckers]

Again let me say that I love this series and i truely enjoyed each book in it, including the last 2.

And i would read this series if 10 more books were scheduled.

But the series is so long because RJ liked to ramble on about stuff that was not so important.

 

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

Yeah, admittedly the arc between Tarabon and Salidar makes me struggle every re-read, and I'm the guy who maintains that you should pay attention to the parts your didn't like during a re-read because you can get some real gems from it--for instance there is so much subtle leg work in CoT that just makes KoD shine. But yes, that particular arc... ick.

 

As for who does like those portions... Dida.

 

Edit: Cirque de Elayne made me laugh.

[Suttree]

As for who does like those portions... Dida.

 

[XoMeltdownoX]

Again let me say that I love this series and i truely enjoyed each book in it, including the last 2.

And i would read this series if 10 more books were scheduled.

But the series is so long because RJ liked to ramble on about stuff that was not so important.

 

Show of hands here:

Who really gives two shits that Elayne learned how to tightrope walk (kind of) and has some sudo creepy daddy issues with Thom.

 

Hey, we'll escape with this traveling circus. Great idea, lets go. The end.

I havent read that portion of the books in awhile but did anything really important happen while they were with Luca's traveling band that we had to spend so much time with it?

Yeah, admittedly the arc between Tarabon and Salidar makes me struggle every re-read, and I'm the guy who maintains that you should pay attention to the parts your didn't like during a re-read because you can get some real gems from it--for instance there is so much subtle leg work in CoT that just makes KoD shine. But yes, that particular arc... ick.

 

As for who does like those portions... Dida.

 

Edit: Cirque de Elayne made me laugh.

 

I suppose it really should have been Cirque du S'elayne:)

[Luckers]

Aaaand I laughed again.

[SuperFade]

As for who does like those portions... Dida.

 

You act smug now, but what about when Valan Luca is revealed to be Demandred and Rand is denounced as the last False Dragon by Cyndane and Lanfear together? Which is, of course, the only way these books can be read.

 

...

 

[Axon]

Damn op, it ain't that big a deal. Just enjoy the books and be happy we got a talented author to finish them.

[rettus]

Yes Brandon does not do as good of a job as RJ did, but that is a given. RJ is the Author who came up with the story of course he would do better. The thing that helps me when reading these books is to just look at the whole thing as a story. This may not make sense, of course we would look at it as if it is a story. But people tend to tear apart every small detail of the books. Stop paying attention to the small detail and just see the tale unfold. Mat may be slightly of key, but for the most part the key Matness is still there. He may be a little different but it is easy to see RJ's version doing some of the same things as BS's (maybe not as elaborate) but if you look at it on the whole you can get past it. If you are not happy with the books stop reading them. Don't say you would rather the series have not been completed and still buy the book. I think brandon is doing a great job and deserves some credit for filling RJ's shoes as best as he can.

[Mr Ares]

The thing that helps me when reading these books is to just look at the whole thing as a story. This may not make sense, of course we would look at it as if it is a story. But people tend to tear apart every small detail of the books. Stop paying attention to the small detail and just see the tale unfold.

The small details are one of the great joys of the series. They make the tale being told that much richer. For the reader to ignore them is to do him or herself a disservice.

[TristanWebb]

The small plot details are what makes for a fanatical fanbase. Look at BSG, Game of Thrones and Lost for recent examples. If you want to get your fanbase excited, you put in the small details and let the fans build them into something big. The downside of this is that you have to actually have something big that the small details fit into, which the three I mentioned don't (aSoIaF is arguable, but I don't believe it has a endgame that it is building to, and interviews with GRRM and his gardener authorship lend credence to it). RJ was a genius in that everything he put in is directly related to something he had planned and if he was alive to finish the series (and didn't want to finish in one book) would of been explained.

[Suttree]

If you are not happy with the books stop reading them.

 

That is utterly ludicrous. Readers, some of which have been reading the series since the 90s should all of a sudden stop because of the drop in quality?

 

Don't say you would rather the series have not been completed and still buy the book.

 

Might have missed it but who said that?

[jedman67]

just my 2 cents. I think BS did a fantastic job considering whose shoes he was trying to fill. I felt the whole ToG bit was a little rushed, but at the end of the day, it was vintage Mat - rushing to save the life of someone he pretends to hate, for the sole reason that he can't stand to see her killed and theres no one else to do the job. "I'm no bloody hero" - he can't stand to think of himself as anything but a troublemaker. But at last he realizes that in order for the world to survive the last battle, Mat needs to become General Cauthon, Hero Extraordinaire. I did have a huge issue with Thom being in love with Moiraine, there was never (as far as i can tell) any romantic development between the two of them at any time in the series except for the letter.

 

If you were just saved from certain death by your beloved, or just separated from your love for a long time, wouldnt you want to express as much affection upon seeing him/her again? I know i would want to.

 

Rands being Anointed In The Light was a little difficult for me. But i can rationalize that as well: He held as much as saidin in him as was humanely possible and not die/get burned out. Just that much of the power alone must have some sort of healing effect; or alternitvely he created an essence of saidin inside his head, protecting himself, or perhaps warding himself, from the encroaching darkness. This allowed him to not only achieve clarity in his current life, but to also break through the bonds of the madness - if he Healed himself of the madness he would lose LTT and his knowledge. Rather he warded the madness, so he can keep only the memories, the full life of LTT but not the voice, which you saw coming as early as KoD.

 

Nynavae HAS grown. If she had been tested for the shawl instead of accepted in TDR (or TSR cant remember) she would have ignored the crying children, ignored Lan, and followed the test precisely. she would have hated herself for doing it, but she would have followed the rules. She would not have been able to send Lan to his death. In a nutshell, she would still believe that SHE knew best. Her transformation started in Ebou Dar, when she finally lost her block by surrendering to saidar, she was able to learn how to surrender to the will of others, even if she disagreed. The Wisdom Nynavae would have switched Lan for wanting to ride to Tarwins Gap, the Aes Sedai Nynavae in TGS+ would never have tried to stop him. A true Aes Sedai serves all - serves the world - this was the lesson she showed the others during her test. She could let others die for the greater good, even though she would die a little inside herself each time. She couldn't let others die for no purpose, hence why she traveled all over the borderlands, gathering an army to meet the trollocs in Tarwins Gap.

 

The biggest transformation was Perrin. Perrin's growth was so powerful because it was so subtle. He needed to master himself, not the wolf inside him, but the man. His coming into himself, finally, was long overdue and well read.

[Cybertrolloc]

If you are not happy with the books stop reading them.

 

That is utterly ludicrous. Readers, some of which have been reading the series since the 90s should all of a sudden stop because of the drop in quality?

 

That was the only part of his post I agreed with, and I would like to know the reasons you would find it ludicrous. Do you have "please, shit on me" tattooed to your forehead?

 

Biggest problem I had with his post was reading for the story: I find the chosen Mary Sue saves the world story dull (there's some interesting things, but if you reduce the story down to that, bleh). I can accept that some people like such, so you don't need to justify that.

 

There's some things I enjoy about WoT still, but most of what I liked about it was RJ's writing. The things I complain about r.e. BS are mistakes that no one who calls himself a writer should be making. ETA: even with the special circumstances of continuing the series, that's after giving him a lot of slack.

[Kahsm]

The Wheel of Time is not really an exemplar of either characterization OR plot. Many of the characters are rather flat, and many others are extremely familiar archetypes. To be honest, characterization was a weakness of Jordan's, not a strength. And the plot is derivative even by the standards of genre fiction.

 

Where Jordan excelled was in world-building. And, the world having been built, another author could (and is) ably completing the series.

 

I agree with randsc. And in pains me to say that, so you know what he said must be simple fact..

 

I'm afraid I agree with Xeratul regarding the lack of re-readability of Brandon's works. Whilst, yes, the plot gratification that came through the first reading of tGS and TofM held them, and held them very well, it was the quality and layering of the prose that lent RJ's works their re-readability. When it comes down to it, whatever flaws RJ had and whatever skills Brandon has, does not change that the writing of both books is unpolished, clunky, and superficial.

 

Plot-gratification will suffice the first read. Maybe the second... Brandon's work does not hold up to the third.

 

That about sums it up. I have said much the same in various threads in the past. I do have hope for AMoL however. Team Jordan seems to be aware of at least some of the issues. The extra polish and Jordan's finish will hopefully be enough to make this a great book. RJ certainly deserves more than what he got with the last two.

 

As an aside when people talk about the increased pace you do realize that this is just where we are in the arc of the books correct? Yes 8-10(they would have been regardless of who wrote them

) were slow but KoD showed clearly that RJ had things pointed in the right direction. it's not as if these last two books would have been similar to CoT as we are in a vastly different part of the story. The argument that they would have suffered in pace if RJ had been the author is absurd.

 

 

You know there has to be an end right? A lot more threads are going to end than new one starting. It seems like you and Luckers expect the books to keep bringing more and more to the table the way the first bunch did and never actually wrap anything up. I mean the last book is not going to have massive character development and RJ's subtle flash-forwards to.... nothing... most of the dangling threads will be solved (or left dangling) and many fewer, if any, started. That's the way it'd be with RJ too. That's the way the last book of such a long series almost has to go down. It's not like your typical trilogy where you can fit near-complete stories into each volume. WOT got far too wide for that.

 

So you can rail on us uncouth louts for being cowed by "plot gratification" but what we're cowed by is the realism that things need to wrap up... the plots need to end. I mean Luckers basically said it himself defending CoT, it's a great setup book right? Well AMoL can't be a great setup book. It will and should be the exact opposite.

 

I would rather reread "See Spot Run" than reread CoT which if i recall correctly was 100% RJ and zero BS.

 

I just found that funny. Hehe. But of course lets trash BS for ruining WOT under the guise of "author critique", because it's for Brandon's own good that Suttree makes sure everyone know's how terrible an author he is. Gotta make sure people know exactly why they're wrong to like his books!

 

I also love "Team Jordan seems aware". As if they didn't have any say in the first two books the guy wrote. Or if those books didn't have the same editor as all the others. But it's ALL BS's fault!

 

so stop complaining and be lucky that someone did take the job otherwise we would be left with 1000 monkeys to write it and it would take an eternity .

 

See. Right here. This is what I don't understand. How did we reach a place in that reasoned critique of a literary work turns into disrespect for the author or complaining. That stance just blows my mind.

 

See above.

 

And I thought I multi-quoted some stuff about the circus being "Comedy Gold" but it's not here and i'm too lazy to go back. So I'll just add that the Circus was in no way funny. Nynaeve's whole thing about Egeanin "attacking" her was tragic, not funny. It showed the worst of Nynaeve. A hypocrite many times over who couldn't even admit truth of things to herself in her own PoVs. Thank god Egwene kept her thumb on her. That whole section was surely Nynaeve's lowest point. That said, she has come around greatly since then.

 

Oh and it was lame too.

[Maleshub]

In the same vein that Traveling and the Ways were used to speed events, Valan Luca's Traveling Show was a method to slow down certain aspects. It was part of Mat's "left hand stays" technique. And that is what might make Luca unpopular. He slows things down even more!

[Terez]

I wouldn't say characterization was a weakness of RJ's at all, though I understand why some people say that. He uses a caricaturish sort of characterization. It doesn't make the characters shallow, but it does make them seem a bit stereotypical sometimes, or in some cases archetypical. That's only the surface, though. It annoys the hell out of some people, and for those people it can be distracting, but the caricature aspect doesn't diminish the fact that his characters are well-developed.

 

The same goes for the plot. Parts of it are derivative, yes, but again, it's only the surface, and the way that he organized his derivations into a complex plot was a feat I doubt any other contemporary author could have managed. And it still manages to be incredibly original.