Will somone please balefire...

[Jonn]

THE SPAM!

Lately there have been quite a few of these stupid spam posts about pharmacy deals and online dating cr@p. Will the mods please jump on this. It's simply annoying. thank you.

 

OK, now the real topic:

 

If you could balefire any particular part of the series and have it redone or if there's a particular person or plot point that you think the story could do without, post it here. Or not. You could balefire this thread. Just balefire the spam as well while you're at it please.

 

My pick for balefire change would be to trim the seafolk thread. I really don't care for it at this point. The death of the Amayar didn't really pay off as it should have because the Seafolk culture and storyline is so laborious and unnecessarily irritating.

 

I remember liking the seafolk when Elayne learned from one of their windfinders how to weave thick flows.

 

If I could change something about the books it would be the portrayal of the Seafolk upper hierarchy. The higher up the ranks they go the more unlikeable the character is. It was such a change from how sweet the brief relationship was between Elayne and that windfinder.

 

So, I'd balefire the whole feuding windfinder sisters stuff. That's pointless. We get it, when you gain rank, things get competative amongst the Seafolk. The sniffing of scentboxes and the whole, I outrank you and my daughter her neice is such a powerful chaneller deal...The dual Queens of the Seafolk thread. Unnecessary. You could have cut out the overcomplexities of these threads and introduced a little bit of some actual Amayar stuff and then maybe we would have given a carp when they all died.

 

I love the stuff when they show their courage against the Seanchan. When Mat freed the windfinders in Ebou Dar. I liked Nesta, The Shipmistress, before she got her head on a pike. I like that they refer to their ships and craft as male. There are a lot of things I like about the Seafolk, it's just ruined by the threads I mentiond. So balefire that stuff.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

I'd balefire that whole Perrin/Faile rescue bit, or at least burn it's thread back a book or so. It completely put me off Perrin, and he was my favourite character.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I recently had another thought on what the "GASP!" moment might have been.

 

What about the trap that Mat laid to cover Tuon's escape back to Ebou Dar?

 

If you think about it, 10,000 soldiers so consumed by greed that they all persist in an utterly hopeless attack until the last of them is dead is pretty shocking. Self preservation should have kicked in at some point.

 

Equally shocking is that the Band was willing to kill every last one of them. That's incredibly savage if you think about it.

[Thor]

gasp moment is definitely amanyar suicide, I certainly gasped and i didn't know that i was supposed to until after i finnished the book.

 

Mat's trap is perfectly reasonable.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The idea of the trap is certainly reasonable. But nothing is ever reasonable about total annihilation.

[Narg]

you have to remeber exactly how much 10k gold crowns can buy you in wot. its like equivelint to millions id risk my life for millions.

[Guest Majsju]

I recently had another thought on what the "GASP!" moment might have been.

 

What about the trap that Mat laid to cover Tuon's escape back to Ebou Dar?

 

If you think about it, 10,000 soldiers so consumed by greed that they all persist in an utterly hopeless attack until the last of them is dead is pretty shocking. Self preservation should have kicked in at some point.

 

Equally shocking is that the Band was willing to kill every last one of them. That's incredibly savage if you think about it.

 

Except the little tiny detail that Mat lays the trap in KOD, and the gasp moment is supposed to be the horrible consequence of something we cheered in an earlier book.

 

And 10000 dead seanchan is rather an event worth cheering in itself than gasping about. It is a war, they are an enemy almost as evil as the shadow itself.

 

There is simply no other possibility than the Amayar mass suicide. Nothing comes even close.

[Jonn]

It was the greed of the soldiers that lead to their annihilation. There's nothing surprising about that. Tragic, certainly, but not surprising.

 

I also think the Faile rescue was a bit labored. I think it would have been possible to accomplish its completion faster. It's important though becasue it resolved the Shaido thread and the Prophet thread. It also had a lot of Perrin in it. Galina also got her repayment for her part in Dumai's Wells and Rand's kidnapping. Aram was killed and we finally had acknowledgement of Rand's true identity by Tam.

 

The meandering about with the seafolk is pretty unecessary though. They're basically very reluctantly fulfilling what they should already accept according to prophecy. The problem with the Jendai Prophecy is that we don't even know what it is. We know of He Who Comes With the Dawn. We know of the Dragon Reborn, but I think the inclusion of the Jendai prophecy has been too cryptic. We already had a culture who based everything on bargaining in the Domani, and making the seafolk the uber-bargainers was just too much.

 

I don't like how bewildered they are that no one understands their chain of command culture. If no one knows your culture and you don't bother explaining it EVER, how the hell can you expect everyone to respect it let alone adhere to it in your presence?

 

It's tiring really.

 

There's a couple hundred of pages of this carp that I think could have been cut out of the series.

[Guest Majsju]

I don't think the rescue of Faile could have happened earlier, as it most likely must happen at a point in time where it fits with other plotlines. I think we can easily assume that Perrin must be at a certain place at a certain time, so if he had rescued Faile earlier, he would more or less have been forced to sit around for weeks just twiddling his thumbs for the timing to work. Which obviously does not fit with the need he feels to go search out rand, with faile free he would not have an excuse to dismiss that.

 

And if the rescue had happened earlier, so would other things. Like taking away most of the seanchans forkroot stash, something that might prove crucial later on.

 

But a few chapters of Perrins bloody whining could have been cut out without anyone missing much.

[Kaznen]

Majsju is right. I think that the Seanchan losing all of their forkroot is going to put a damper on Tuon's plans. With the way crops are growing it douptful that the nearly three tons of the stuff will be replaced soon.

[Wonga]

O.k I'm only part way through LoC but so far the part that annoys me the most is when Perrin wanted to get to Emonds field and Faile acted the brat. I can't believe she would do that to someone she loves. I know Faile is head strong and all that but knowing Perrin's family and friends were in danger why would she hurt him so just to prove a point? And using Loial like that, it was cruel.

[Mercer]

Come on, no one wants to balefire Cadsuane? Lord knows I do. She may be neccessary, and even slightly humourous in her insane hubris at points, but she is so goddamned arrogant it makes me want to pull my hair out while reading her parts. And to call Rand arrogant at the same time. Sheeeesh.

[PrinceOfRavens]

O.k I'm only part way through LoC but so far the part that annoys me the most is when Perrin wanted to get to Emonds field and Faile acted the brat. I can't believe she would do that to someone she loves. I know Faile is head strong and all that but knowing Perrin's family and friends were in danger why would she hurt him so just to prove a point? And using Loial like that' date=' it was cruel.[/quote']

 

absolutly agree with that one... maybe his family would still be alive. IMO faile is way worse then cadsuane, who really tries to do best for the world, while faile only does whats best for her own little arrogant self.

[Mardragon]

I think Cadsuane is one of the most interesting characters in the story. She does come across kind of arrogant, (although most of that stems from her sterness and self assurance), but this is balanced by her ability to face up to reality- something many of the other Aes Sedai seem to lack.

 

As for arrogance, if anyone is arrogant it is Rand in the last few books. And who is the one to give him a clip round the ear and set his feet back on the ground? Cadsuane.

 

I actually rather like Faile as well, although I understand why others do not. She has been rather infuriating in the past, although a lot of that is cultural. She is a strong woman though, and I find them interesting to read about.

[Wonga]

It's not that I don't like Faile, it's just that particular part. It was completely unnecessary for her to do that no matter how proud she is. I haven't come across Cadsuane yet so I won't comment.

 

Oh... and yes I totally agree about the spam, that sort of thing has been popping up on a few sites I visit. Maybe it's me!?

[Guest Majsju]

If Faile had not "acted the brat", and made sure she could tag along, Perrin would be dead by now, and Emond's Field destroyed.

 

And with Perrin dead, Rand would be doomed to lose TG, if he had even made it that far.

[racha_giurgiu]

I would balefire Bob T Dwarf and CrazyMike. Because as much as I love a good debate about the series it has to use logic and some intelligence.

[Jonn]

Actually, yeah, despite use of the term balefire, this is not a flame thread against other members of the board, so please do us a favor and delete your message. thanks

[racha_giurgiu]

I will not delete my post, instead I will expand upon it.

 

I should have in the first place included my agreement that I do not appreciate the Faile/perrin storyline. NOt that I doubt its necessity, I just find it tedious as it is written. I've never really been a fan of either character and I could do without.

[Mercer]

I think Cadsuane is one of the most interesting characters in the story. She does come across kind of arrogant, (although most of that stems from her sterness and self assurance), but this is balanced by her ability to face up to reality- something many of the other Aes Sedai seem to lack.

 

As for arrogance, if anyone is arrogant it is Rand in the last few books. And who is the one to give him a clip round the ear and set his feet back on the ground? Cadsuane.

 

She has her moments, and is a neccesary character, sure; she's still easily the most annoying and arrogant character. Really, self assurance in her case is her arrogance. It goes beyond assurance into "Hey, who are thesechildren- who have done ten times what I have in recent memory towards fighting the shadow, have so far managed to maintain a semblance of order in the territories THEY have taken and rules - compared to ME, the great Cadsuane? Rand of course has his little tizzy moments, dude's 20 years old. Mostly, his IS the fact that he IS the Dragon Reborn, and you don't run around asking people politely if they might possibly do something; you order it. Mostly he's been paranoid.

 

(I mean, even her less annoying moments...slapping Rand for using balefire? Really, it's harmful to the pattern? Wouldn't have known that, thanks. You know, only trying to stay alive here.)

 

I don't get most of the "Rand is arrogant" bits. He rules half the known world, and easily the largest armed forces...he has no choice but to be firm and fairly remorseless. It's war! "Oh please rand, don't be so amazing at killing people, it's not like you are the poster child for prophesized dark-killer's everywhere. He barely even shows up in recent books, anyhow.

[Jorik Alarin]

Mercer, just stop, trust me you'll save yourself acres of headaches...these people worship Cadsuane, they cannot even contemplate the idea of Cadsuane being anything other than the Goddess mothers will on earth to keep the spoiled manchild under control. You cannot reason with them, you cannot use facts, you cannot use logic, they simply refuse too see it. And they will attempt to equate Cadsuanes plot value with Rand's, (he has to learn something from her)and her power with that of the creator. (ter'angreal,angreal, and possibly sa'angreal, "oh my!") She saved his life,(healing skill, crappy as that is) she is the only female he respects(because of her "forceful will", arrogant condescension), shes the only one with the power(because of her uber ter'angreal, not her personal ability) to stand up to Rand, the only person he should trust,(shes a 400 year old nanny, that although she can't do what he can, she can still tell him how to go about doing it) etc.......all their blather and fawning adoration for this "strong female character", it cannot be fought against, accept it and get on with your life. You will find no converts, there are only adversaries here.

 

Edit:

 

Obviously yes, Cadsuane is the "thread" i would balefire out, and i would replace her with Verin, a much more palatable alternative. Who without the plot exploitation of Far Madding could do everything that Cadsuane has, and probably have done it with less than half the shego. (hmmm...i think ill copyright that phrase.....Shego....)

[Wonga]

If Faile had not "acted the brat", and made sure she could tag along, Perrin would be dead by now, and Emond's Field destroyed.

 

And with Perrin dead, Rand would be doomed to lose TG, if he had even made it that far.

 

Yeah, point taken but did it really have to be written in such a way? She was cruel and manipulative she could have told him to stuff it and just followed him rather than using Loial and hurting Perrin just because she's annoyed about Berelain. Maybe she should try showing some trust in Perrin.

[SinisterDeath]

Yeah, point taken but did it really have to be written in such a way? She was cruel and manipulative she could have told him to stuff it and just followed him rather than using Loial and hurting Perrin just because she's annoyed about Berelain. Maybe she should try showing some trust in Perrin.

 

Think about that time in the series, They hadn't really even hit first base yet, they were more or less 'travelling companions'. so how could she hurt perrin? And if she did, don't you think he hurt her even more by escentially saying 'screw you, i'm going to be berlains sex slave!'?

 

Also mind you, Faile acts the way she does due to her culture. Perrin comes from a culture thats 'male dominated' in the aspect that politically, males have more power then women, *except in the role of 'queen'.* and 'women' in emonds field, were the 'power behind the throne'. So while the men had the final decision, women still held power.. only in a different manner.

 

Faile came from not only a nation thats female dominated, but part of the 'royal family', so while the nation at large amongst everywhere else may not be nearly as female dominated, at the head of state, its very much so. Theres a reason why the women go to battle with the men in that country.

 

So now just imagine a guy from Texas marrying a person from India. IT would be a cultural marriage nightmare. Thats escentially what RJ has done with perrins marriage, and exactly what he wanted to do.

 

Rand? He's got it so easy, he's got 3 women.

 

Perrin? He's got it so tough his wife actually wants him to yell at her!!

 

Mat? He married a women he doesn't even know, doesn't even 'want' to get married but knows he has to, and she 'springs' the marriage upon him with little warning. Each person has there issues...

How can rand love 3 women equally?

How can perrin communicate with his wife and not get cold shouldered, and not just by his wife!

And hth can mat be 'mat' when he's married to someone who can kick his ass?!

[Mr Ares]

Mercer, just stop, trust me you'll save yourself acres of headaches...these people worship Cadsuane, they cannot even contemplate the idea of Cadsuane being anything other than the Goddess mothers will on earth to keep the spoiled manchild under control. You cannot reason with them, you cannot use facts, you cannot use logic, they simply refuse too see it. And they will attempt to equate Cadsuanes plot value with Rand's, (he has to learn something from her)and her power with that of the creator. (ter'angreal,angreal, and possibly sa'angreal, "oh my!") She saved his life,(healing skill, crappy as that is) she is the only female he respects(because of her "forceful will", arrogant condescension), shes the only one with the power(because of her uber ter'angreal, not her personal ability) to stand up to Rand, the only person he should trust,(shes a 400 year old nanny, that although she can't do what he can, she can still tell him how to go about doing it) etc.......all their blather and fawning adoration for this "strong female character", it cannot be fought against, accept it and get on with your life. You will find no converts, there are only adversaries here.

 

Edit:

 

Obviously yes, Cadsuane is the "thread" i would balefire out, and i would replace her with Verin, a much more palatable alternative. Who without the plot exploitation of Far Madding could do everything that Cadsuane has, and probably have done it with less than half the shego. (hmmm...i think ill copyright that phrase.....Shego....)

 

Interestingly, most of what you say could be turned back against you - some people just won't accept that she is not arrogant, won't use logic, etc. to them she is Shai'tan incarnate and nothing anyone can say will change their mind. Why not actually try pointing out some examples and at least trying to debate. IT would at least allow you to take the high ground rather than slagging off people who have opinions that differ from yours, which is what comes accross even if it was not what was meant.

[Jorik Alarin]

Mr. Ares please see the following thread, i believe the discussion you seek lies therin.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6443