A 3rd Sa' angreal?

[Neophyte]

Has SH ever done anything directly that didn't involve the Forsaken?

 

I can't remember, but it seems to me that the only times he interacts with the world physically is to beat on Mesaana, Moghedian and Grendal. He doesn't release Semi himself, he tells Elza to. It might not have been possible for him to take the access key, and Semi taking it on the way to capture Rand would be a pretty stupid idea.

 

He gives Alviarin her special "Property of the Dark One" visible only to Shadowspawn mark. He also picks up a spear in ACoS chapter 40, then burns it to ash with shadowfire. So, it seems like picking up the statue would have been an option. Destroying it probably would have been too - the True Power seems to have very few limits in what it can destroy (the Wondergirls poured saidar into the sad bracelets and couldn't even mark them, but Rand with the TP made short work of them). I just don't think he had any reason to do so.

[BNICK1026]

The other possible reason they didn't just manufacture S'angrel (spelling) could be due to unforseen requirements. What if creating one costs a soul? or one of the creators losing their ability to channel as an offering? Or, there really wasn't a need to S'angreal because they could make circles of larger numbers so more power was already available. So plain Angreal would be more than sufficient for an average individual need.

[clu7ch]

I like to think of it this way: AN angreal is a device that can fill up with the one power. Possibly reality is twisted a bit, but I like to think that within a reasonable margin, the power fills the actual angreal's mass. whereas a sa'angreal such as the wand, or callandor pulls that power to a type of linked area of subreality, allowing for a much greater amount of power to be stored/used. Whereas the choden kal were extremely recent creations in terms of things, is kind of a mixture of the two. the access key gets the wielder to the actual statue, which is massive, and also has a subreality storage tank, making for a bigger boom.

 

This post has no purpose it's just my thoughts.

[cancan4ever]

I have 2 theories on the Eye of the World and one is that its the 3rd sa'angreal.

 

 

"There were only 2 more powerful ever created" This is what we were told upon learning of Callandor. 2 more extremely powerful sa'angreal attuned to men are out there in the world somewhere. We later find and use 1 of these 2, the Choedan Kal. At the time when Lanfear tells of these other 2 she also says that she knows one still exists, meaning the Choedan Kal, this does not have to mean ignorance on Lanfears part as to the 3rd, maybe she says one still exists because she knows the 3rd has been destroyed.

 

1. it was CREATED by Aes Sedai, male and female, as was Callandor and the Choedan Kal and countless more.

 

2. Moiraine thinks the eye has enough POWER to destroy the Dark Ones Prison.

 

3. The Forsaken want it. Lanfear and Asmodean once freed go after the location of the Choedan Kals access keys. Moghedian goes after the stash in Tanchico, Bel'al the stash in Tear, Messanna the White Tower, it appears the Forsaken are seaking out tools of the trade or at the least many of them are seeking out bases of power that just happen to have stashes of long lost items of the power. They canNOT take Callandor, and as of Book 1 have no idea where to find the access keys, that leaves The Eye.

 

4. Aginor litteraly ODs on the One Power when he attempts to channel thru the Eye, what would cause this if it were not a sa'angreal? One too powerful for Aginor to handle.

 

5. The few previous times Rand channels throughout book 1, the most impressive thing he did was a single bolt of lightening in Four Kings. When he channels through the Eye he is able to decimate an entire army of shadowspawn.

 

6. The Eye is gone, used up burned out Just like the female half of the Choedan Kal.

 

I also want to note that many mention the Eyes healing properties and I must say that in my opinion that does not come from the Eye. It comes from the Green Man. Why was the Green Man set to guard this particular sa'angreal? You wouldn't want a tired, weary, angry, crazy male channeler approaching the Eye if it is indeed the most powerful sa'angreal ever created for a man. The presence of the Green Man and his effects on the body and mind are ment to be another line of protection against the taint.

[TootThatHorn]

I have 2 theories on the Eye of the World and one is that its the 3rd sa'angreal.

 

 

"There were only 2 more powerful ever created" This is what we were told upon learning of Callandor. 2 more extremely powerful sa'angreal attuned to men are out there in the world somewhere. We later find and use 1 of these 2, the Choedan Kal. At the time when Lanfear tells of these other 2 she also says that she knows one still exists, meaning the Choedan Kal, this does not have to mean ignorance on Lanfears part as to the 3rd, maybe she says one still exists because she knows the 3rd has been destroyed.

 

1. it was CREATED by Aes Sedai, male and female, as was Callandor and the Choedan Kal and countless more.

 

2. Moiraine thinks the eye has enough POWER to destroy the Dark Ones Prison.

 

3. The Forsaken want it. Lanfear and Asmodean once freed go after the location of the Choedan Kals access keys. Moghedian goes after the stash in Tanchico, Bel'al the stash in Tear, Messanna the White Tower, it appears the Forsaken are seaking out tools of the trade or at the least many of them are seeking out bases of power that just happen to have stashes of long lost items of the power. They canNOT take Callandor, and as of Book 1 have no idea where to find the access keys, that leaves The Eye.

 

4. Aginor litteraly ODs on the One Power when he attempts to channel thru the Eye, what would cause this if it were not a sa'angreal? One too powerful for Aginor to handle.

 

5. The few previous times Rand channels throughout book 1, the most impressive thing he did was a single bolt of lightening in Four Kings. When he channels through the Eye he is able to decimate an entire army of shadowspawn.

 

6. The Eye is gone, used up burned out Just like the female half of the Choedan Kal.

 

I also want to note that many mention the Eyes healing properties and I must say that in my opinion that does not come from the Eye. It comes from the Green Man. Why was the Green Man set to guard this particular sa'angreal? You wouldn't want a tired, weary, angry, crazy male channeler approaching the Eye if it is indeed the most powerful sa'angreal ever created for a man. The presence of the Green Man and his effects on the body and mind are ment to be another line of protection against the taint.

 

Pretty sure the eye was just a well, hence why it has no relevancy anymore, and I would assume a green man was set to guard it because he is able to live for that long when a human can't...I could be wrong but I feel like the eye was built with the foresight, probably from a foretelling, that the dragon would need a clean source of saidin right from the get go, prior to him knowing what it is he was doing with the power...Also I think it was a plot from a proposed 3 book series that exploded...I'm rereading EotW now and so much of it I am just throwing right out the window because of that point, like Moiraine is going to be, and already if you ask me, a completely different character, she was overly dramatic in EotW.

[yoniy0]

First, Lanfear said "one at least, I know, still exists", meaning she didn't know whether the other still existed or not. Secondly, Siuan was unaware of that third sa'angrel - she believed the CK are the only two more powerful that Callandor. Third, Aginor was just a hair weaker than LTT, and he was at his full potential, so Rand's staying healthy while Aginor ODed has to be an early-bookism (though you can explain it in several ways, but all ultimately flawed I believe). All in all, I don't believe the Eye can be considered the 3rd sa'angreal.

[matisawesome]

aybe something happened to the ring at the sealing of the dark ones prison

[XoMeltdownoX]

aybe something happened to the ring at the sealing of the dark ones prison

I do not believe LTT was wearing the Ring of Tamyrlin at the sealing. LTT and the

men who survived the strike at SG went insane instantly, unlike the other male AS. We see Ishy talking to LTT in the prologue of TEoTW after LTT has killed his family and household. It is safe to assume this is shortly after the strike (my assumption). Ishy scornfully says to LTT:

"once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat."

 

To me it sounds like LTT has not been the head of the AS for some time. I believe this is a result of his fall out with the female AS and the Fateful Concord. Perhaps he resigned, or perhaps he was forced out, it does not really matter. The important factor is he did not have the position and therefore did not have the ring.

 

After all of that I do not believe the ring is a SA. I do not think we will see this third SA unless perhaps Ishy has it.

[yoniy0]

It is safe to assume this is shortly after the strike (my assumption).

It doesn't seem safe at all to me. Granted, LTT and the companions were the first to go mad, but in Rand's test we learn that male AS were still wreaking havoc some 70+ years after the Strike. Therefore, it might've been a week after, a year or even ten, and nothing to say which.

[XoMeltdownoX]

It is safe to assume this is shortly after the strike (my assumption).

It doesn't seem safe at all to me. Granted, LTT and the companions were the first to go mad, but in Rand's test we learn that male AS were still wreaking havoc some 70+ years after the Strike. Therefore, it might've been a week after, a year or even ten, and nothing to say which.

Not just the first to go mad. "LTT and the 68 survivors of the Hundred went insane on the instant, perhaps not even knowing that their attempt to seal the Bore had been successful. Within days, these powerful male AS, armed with the One Power and completely out of control, began unleashing their might against anyone and anything that crossed their path or even caught their notice, leaving trails of death and wanton destruction. Thus began the time of Madness." BWB

 

Yes the breaking lasted far longer, but for other reasons. Other male AS did not go insane straight away. Some took to the stedding for many years.

[yoniy0]

Ah, I haven't read that. Thanks, then.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Ah, I haven't read that. Thanks, then.

No worries. I should have put that in the original post. Kind of my fault.

[fuzz1717]

After all of that I do not believe the ring is a SA. I do not think we will see this third SA unless perhaps Ishy has it.

 

If Ishy has it... then isn't Rand completely screwed? LTT and Ishy were approximatly equal in strength, and if the last Sa'angreal is in Ishy's possession then Rand is gonna get owned (unless he is in a circle with Nynaeve and one other, probably Moirane, to use Callandor).

[Mulk]

Ishy was nigh his equal in strength, but strength /= battle prowess, and battle prowess is where LTT/Rand excels everyone. Ishamael was not a warrior, but a philosopher; that's not to say he is useless, mind you. However, if he couldn't beat Rand one on one when Rand was still learning and growing, he likely won't be able to do it now. Be'lal was the swordsman. Sammael and Demandred were generals on the side of the light. I've long thought that the reason Ishamael stands so high in the DO's "good graces" is because he alone truly understands and pushes forward for the DO's true goal. I really think that if most of the rest knew that what the DO wanted was the destruction of reality instead of power, they wouldn't be so quick to side with him. They want power and glory, and to be able to look down on everyone else, not to be destroyed along with all that is.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I am not saying Ishy has it, just that it is unlikely to show up. If it does show up I think Ishy will have it. This does not imply Rand is screwed (any more than he is already). There are other factors. One of which is Rand is linked with two female chandlers.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Ishy was nigh his equal in strength, but strength /= battle prowess, and battle prowess is where LTT/Rand excels everyone. Ishamael was not a warrior, but a philosopher; that's not to say he is useless, mind you. However, if he couldn't beat Rand one on one when Rand was still learning and growing, he likely won't be able to do it now. Be'lal was the swordsman. Sammael and Demandred were generals on the side of the light. I've long thought that the reason Ishamael stands so high in the DO's "good graces" is because he alone truly understands and pushes forward for the DO's true goal. I really think that if most of the rest knew that what the DO wanted was the destruction of reality instead of power, they wouldn't be so quick to side with him. They want power and glory, and to be able to look down on everyone else, not to be destroyed along with all that is.

I do not think Ishmael was trying to kill Rand in these previous encounters, except perhaps in the Stone. The DO, mainly through Ishy has been trying to turn Rand to the "dark side."

[Maleshub]

Going back to Vora's sa'angreal, why doesn't it count? It might not be as powerful as Callandor, but it is still a sa'angreal. And The Great Hunt's glossary indicates that there are only a handful sa'angreal left. Does that mean that the CK don't count in that "handful?" If not, any clue as to other sa'angreal?

[fuzz1717]

Going back to Vora's sa'angreal, why doesn't it count? It might not be as powerful as Callandor, but it is still a sa'angreal. And The Great Hunt's glossary indicates that there are only a handful sa'angreal left. Does that mean that the CK don't count in that "handful?" If not, any clue as to other sa'angreal?

Vora's Sa'angreal is only for women, but why shouldn't it count? And why wouldn't the CK count as one of the handful? surely two more sa'angreal does not make it more than a handful

[yoniy0]

Also, the glossaries vary between incredibly naive and highly informed on different topics. This could be derived simply from what's known to the WT at the time.

[Vardar]

Elayne did study angreal but couldn't work out how to copy them. Making 'angreal is a Talent that apparently none of the Forsaken possessed. (They have other Talents.) RJ said that Callandor's flaw was a manufacturing flaw due to mass production.

 

Ok, Was that Elayne thing mentioned in the Text somewhere, or was it a Quote?

 

That being said, I understand it was a flaw due to manufacturing, however that doesn't add up. If you're creating the 3rd most powerful something ever, why would you rush it?Mass production means it was rushed in some way, why rush something that powerful. Doesn't add up.

[Vardar]

Has SH ever done anything directly that didn't involve the Forsaken?

 

I can't remember, but it seems to me that the only times he interacts with the world physically is to beat on Mesaana, Moghedian and Grendal. He doesn't release Semi himself, he tells Elza to. It might not have been possible for him to take the access key, and Semi taking it on the way to capture Rand would be a pretty stupid idea.

 

He gives Alviarin her special "Property of the Dark One" visible only to Shadowspawn mark. He also picks up a spear in ACoS chapter 40, then burns it to ash with shadowfire. So, it seems like picking up the statue would have been an option. Destroying it probably would have been too - the True Power seems to have very few limits in what it can destroy (the Wondergirls poured saidar into the sad bracelets and couldn't even mark them, but Rand with the TP made short work of them). I just don't think he had any reason to do so.

 

We don't know if what SH uses is really the TP. it's all speculation right now. So in theory, perhaps he couldn't destroy the statue (As only TP can destroy it)

[Neophyte]

Has SH ever done anything directly that didn't involve the Forsaken?

 

I can't remember, but it seems to me that the only times he interacts with the world physically is to beat on Mesaana, Moghedian and Grendal. He doesn't release Semi himself, he tells Elza to. It might not have been possible for him to take the access key, and Semi taking it on the way to capture Rand would be a pretty stupid idea.

 

He gives Alviarin her special "Property of the Dark One" visible only to Shadowspawn mark. He also picks up a spear in ACoS chapter 40, then burns it to ash with shadowfire. So, it seems like picking up the statue would have been an option. Destroying it probably would have been too - the True Power seems to have very few limits in what it can destroy (the Wondergirls poured saidar into the sad bracelets and couldn't even mark them, but Rand with the TP made short work of them). I just don't think he had any reason to do so.

 

We don't know if what SH uses is really the TP. it's all speculation right now. So in theory, perhaps he couldn't destroy the statue (As only TP can destroy it)

 

While it is true that we don't know for certain what power SH uses, the TP is, I think, far and away the most likely candidate available at the moment.

 

Tangential note: We know that unlike other Myrddraal Shaidar Haran has a greater sensitivity to the different "flavors" of the One Power. We also know that Myrddraal in general are "throwbacks" from among the Trollocs to their human DNA. In addition, we know that the ability to channel the One Power has a genetic component. Finally, we know whatever gives the ability to channel the One Power is also what gives the ability to channel the True Power, and that the ability to channel at all makes people vulnerable to the Dark One in unique ways (13x13 turning, mindtrapping, etc.).

 

The point is - what if Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal who got channeling DNA as part of his "human throwback" thing? That might explain a great deal about his abilities ... and would, in my opinion, make it more likely that it is, in fact, the True Power that he uses.

 

Anywho ...

 

Back to the main idea: Regardless of whether or not SH could have destroyed the access key, he certainly could have stolen it, or ordered Semirhage to destroy it - his voice is the voice of the Dark One, so if he gave her permission to use the TP she could have done it. If he wanted to deny Rand access to it, he could have - and he chose not to.

[yoniy0]

The point is - what if Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal who got channeling DNA as part of his "human throwback" thing? That might explain a great deal about his abilities ... and would, in my opinion, make it more likely that it is, in fact, the True Power that he uses.

I find that unlikely, since SH had a prototype (that Fade that threatened Jaichim Carridin in the Fortress of the Light). He was most likely produced rather than simply born. And I personally think that what he does is an extension of the DO's own powers, and not done using the TP per se (that is, the DO is probably the source of the TP, but I hardly think he actually channels it to do what he does).

[Neophyte]

The point is - what if Shaidar Haran is a Myrddraal who got channeling DNA as part of his "human throwback" thing? That might explain a great deal about his abilities ... and would, in my opinion, make it more likely that it is, in fact, the True Power that he uses.

I find that unlikely, since SH had a prototype (that Fade that threatened Jaichim Carridin in the Fortress of the Light). He was most likely produced rather than simply born. And I personally think that what he does is an extension of the DO's own powers, and not done using the TP per se (that is, the DO is probably the source of the TP, but I hardly think he actually channels it to do what he does).

 

Well, it's possible that the "prototype" version just was another Myrddraal with channeling DNA - it pops up in 1% to 3% of humans after all - and the Dark One just hadn't perfected the method of "possession" yet.

 

But I'll freely admit my idea is highly speculative.

[thisguy]

Is that myrdraal a prototype?