A 3rd Sa' angreal?

[Stone Rocks Hold]

I've got to think that Ishamael (with all of 3,000 years to go looking) might have found the 3rd sa'angreal. Maybe he's waiting to use it (or waiting for someone else to use it) to maximize its surprise factor.

 

Besides, from a literary standpoint, should all three of the most powerful sa'angreal end up on the side of the Light?

[FarShainMael]

Here's a summary of what happened when Elayne and Nyn used Need:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/loc/ch13.html

 

That night Elayne and Nynaeve go to sleep.

 

They are standing by their beds. They hold hands and think of Need.

 

They are standing in a square in Tar Valon. They use Need again.

 

They are standing in a hall in the White Tower. Elayne spots Egwene down the hallway. They use Need again.

 

They are in a storeroom. It is a storage place for *angreal. They open the door and find a guardroom. Evidently the place is heavily guarded in the real world.2 They realize that there is no way they can ever access whatever is in the room, so they concentrate on Need, a ter'angreal, not in Tar Valon.

 

There is a note:

 

2.This is the same room where Fain found the ruby dagger and where the most dangerous One Power objects are stored. It is never revealed exactly what object drew them to this room.

 

They then go on and locate the BoW.

 

@GB: I hope Avi will have time, she's quite busy ATM.

@Stone Rocks Hold: That's a heavily guarded storeroom. I've no doubt Ishy has been searching, though.

 

The Light has them now, but there is speculation that the FS may grab Callandor - see Min's Viewing of it being gripped in a 'black hand'.

[yoniy0]

No, they weren't even tested during the War of Power. The access keys were made so that they could be accessed from anywhere; they weren't made as an extra buffer. At least, not according to the BWB. The Forsaken could have used them, but only at the site, and judging by their reactions to learning that the statues still existed, they might have been scared to try.

I'm less certain of this. That's not necessarily to say that I disagree, just that I'm... less certain.

Yeah, you guys both know I haven't read the BWB, so I was going by The Strike:

both so powerful that using them required special ter'angreal

[...]

The side of the Light still had the sa'angreal, but no safe way to access them; without the ter'angreal it was certain that even the strongest Aes Sedai would be burned out instantly by the huge flow of the One Power.

[FarShainMael]

In TSR26, there is a reference to an AS who left Jonai's group with 'some of the sa'angreal' We only know of two portable ones, Callandor and the white fluted wand. This suggests that there are more, both in the Rhuidean stash (which Moiraine removed) and elsewhere (Tear? Mayene?).

[GB]

Here's a summary of what happened when Elayne and Nyn used Need:

 

http://encyclopaedia...s/loc/ch13.html

 

That night Elayne and Nynaeve go to sleep.

 

They are standing by their beds. They hold hands and think of Need.

 

They are standing in a square in Tar Valon. They use Need again.

 

They are standing in a hall in the White Tower. Elayne spots Egwene down the hallway. They use Need again.

 

They are in a storeroom. It is a storage place for *angreal. They open the door and find a guardroom. Evidently the place is heavily guarded in the real world.2 They realize that there is no way they can ever access whatever is in the room, so they concentrate on Need, a ter'angreal, not in Tar Valon.

 

There is a note:

 

2.This is the same room where Fain found the ruby dagger and where the most dangerous One Power objects are stored. It is never revealed exactly what object drew them to this room.

 

They then go on and locate the BoW.

 

@GB: I hope Avi will have time, she's quite busy ATM.

@Stone Rocks Hold: That's a heavily guarded storeroom. I've no doubt Ishy has been searching, though.

 

The Light has them now, but there is speculation that the FS may grab Callandor - see Min's Viewing of it being gripped in a 'black hand'.

 

yep i hope so too would be good for her to at least identify the ones which can be used in battles

[Woolheaded]

This wasn't planned originally, but was done to fix the huge continuity error that was the Dream Battle. I sympathise with Maria on that one--nothing short of a massive re-write would have fixed that mistake adequately, which was out of the question. Maria simply did the best she could with what she had.

 

This is probably the strongest reason for me to support the delay for extra revision with aMoL.

Is there a place where all of the discontinuities are addressed? I personally would like to know, as I near tGS and ToM in my reread. If not... I'd really like to see one. I just have not invested the time into this series to be able to really see all the discontinuities. I know most have been discussed with Brandon at some point, and even just a collection of those interviews would be grand.

 

On topic, though, I don't know if that third sa'angrael will come into play. If anything, it would just be to make for some epic battles (assuming the Shadow has it, otherwise just easier for the Light to win and therefore not as interesting). In the end though I don't think it will matter really. The Last Battle isn't going to be fought how we think it will be fought, I don't think. Partially because Verin said it, and partially because the best endings are the ones you don't expect.

 

I do like the dream ter'angrael being the Ring of Tamyrlin though. Verin <3

[Vardar]

In TSR26, there is a reference to an AS who left Jonai's group with 'some of the sa'angreal' We only know of two portable ones, Callandor and the white fluted wand. This suggests that there are more, both in the Rhuidean stash (which Moiraine removed) and elsewhere (Tear? Mayene?).

 

Yep.

 

Random musing: Why did they ever make Angreal if they could make San'Angreal (Easily enough that Jonai thinks another Aes Sedai left with yet more of the San'Angreal) That made it seem like they were pretty damn common back then. If you can make something that increases your power by 800 (Just using made up numbers) but you don't have to use all 800, why would you make something that can increase it up 200 at max?

[yoniy0]

Why do we manufacture heatsinks from Aluminum, when copper would do much better? Why fill your tank with 85-octane gasoline?

[Luckers]

I suspect making sa'angreal is a lot more difficult. There were likely also restrictions placed on their use--akin to how we see the use of small explosives in everyday life--demolition etc--but not nuclear devices. Or perhaps repeat that with generators and nuclear powerplants.

 

And finally in the BWB it actually states that alot of Power isn't always preferable--this is in relation to forming circles, but it holds true with angreal and sa'angreal.

[Vardar]

Why do we manufacture heatsinks from Aluminum, when copper would do much better? Why fill your tank with 85-octane gasoline?

 

Money reasons. Or in the case of gas, some cars take certain octanes. But there was no money back then right?

 

I suspect making sa'angreal is a lot more difficult. There were likely also restrictions placed on their use--akin to how we see the use of small explosives in everyday life--demolition etc--but not nuclear devices. Or perhaps repeat that with generators and nuclear powerplants.

 

And finally in the BWB it actually states that alot of Power isn't always preferable--this is in relation to forming circles, but it holds true with angreal and sa'angreal.

 

So, some Angreal and such can use different powers differently?

[yoniy0]

My point was, having the ability to manufacture something doesn't make it as cost-effective as simpler alternatives. Whether that cost is measured in required skills, production-time, natural resources or money doesn't really make a difference.

[Vardar]

My point was, having the ability to manufacture something doesn't make it as cost-effective as simpler alternatives. Whether that cost is measured in required skills, production-time, natural resources or money doesn't really make a difference.

 

Oh I know what you're aiming at, but it seems like it would be worth the extra effort since you have a greater range with San'Angreal to stop making Angreal once you know how to make the San.

 

Bigger isn't always better, but if bigger can cover the whole spectrum, then it does make it better.

 

Unless of course Angreal can be made solo and San'angreal require groups, then it gets sketchy, unless you can make an angreal, then use that to boost your power to make a San'angreal

 

I'm just tossing out random musings here.

[FarShainMael]

Why do we manufacture heatsinks from Aluminum, when copper would do much better? Why fill your tank with 85-octane gasoline?

 

Money reasons. Or in the case of gas, some cars take certain octanes. But there was no money back then right?

 

There is money. Coins are frequently mentioned - Tar Valon marks, and the like. There are also numerous references to 'coffers' containing the wealth of a country, or of an army: in KoD25 'the Band's coffers hold a year's pay and more'.

[Luckers]

So, some Angreal and such can use different powers differently?

 

What?

[TristanWebb]

Why do we manufacture heatsinks from Aluminum, when copper would do much better? Why fill your tank with 85-octane gasoline?

 

Money reasons. Or in the case of gas, some cars take certain octanes. But there was no money back then right?

 

There is money. Coins are frequently mentioned - Tar Valon marks, and the like. There are also numerous references to 'coffers' containing the wealth of a country, or of an army: in KoD25 'the Band's coffers hold a year's pay and more'.

That was in reference to the AoL.

[yoniy0]

This is all a matter of degree. It might be that strength in the OP wasn't that big of a deal (in fact, we know that to be true, as Luckers said), for every-day purposes. It might be that whenever something complicated came along, they used to employ circles, again making individual strength negligible. It might be that most researchers lacked the skills to make sa'angreal. It might be that manufacturing one consumed about the same amount of resources as ten or twenty angreal. Or that much more time. Either way, it's a question of cost-effectiveness, and we have enough of that in our own world to appreciate these concerns.

[FarShainMael]

Why do we manufacture heatsinks from Aluminum, when copper would do much better? Why fill your tank with 85-octane gasoline?

 

Money reasons. Or in the case of gas, some cars take certain octanes. But there was no money back then right?

 

There is money. Coins are frequently mentioned - Tar Valon marks, and the like. There are also numerous references to 'coffers' containing the wealth of a country, or of an army: in KoD25 'the Band's coffers hold a year's pay and more'.

That was in reference to the AoL.

 

OIC. Well, even if there was no money as such, there would still have been scarceities - of skills required to make sa'angreal, if not materials.

[Vardar]

So, some Angreal and such can use different powers differently?

 

What?

 

You said: And finally in the BWB it actually states that alot of Power isn't always preferable--this is in relation to forming circles, but it holds true with angreal and sa'angreal.

 

Well, power isn't always preferable because someone relatively weak can be strong in one aspect (Androl, Samistu etc), and you said it holds true with Anreal and Sa'angreal. Well, I was asking are you implying some Angreal/San can just multiply one particular power or something of that sort?

 

In otherwords I was requesting you expand upon that idea.

[Neophyte]

So, some Angreal and such can use different powers differently?

 

What?

 

You said: And finally in the BWB it actually states that alot of Power isn't always preferable--this is in relation to forming circles, but it holds true with angreal and sa'angreal.

 

Well, power isn't always preferable because someone relatively weak can be strong in one aspect (Androl, Samistu etc), and you said it holds true with Anreal and Sa'angreal. Well, I was asking are you implying some Angreal/San can just multiply one particular power or something of that sort?

 

In otherwords I was requesting you expand upon that idea.

 

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

[Vardar]

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

 

yYa but that was kinda my point. You can choose to pull less thru an Sa'Angreal or more. You can't pull more than it allows you to pull, but you can use less. So if less power is good, a Sa'angreal accomplishes both.

[thisguy]

My point was, having the ability to manufacture something doesn't make it as cost-effective as simpler alternatives. Whether that cost is measured in required skills, production-time, natural resources or money doesn't really make a difference.

 

Oh I know what you're aiming at, but it seems like it would be worth the extra effort since you have a greater range with San'Angreal to stop making Angreal once you know how to make the San.

 

Bigger isn't always better, but if bigger can cover the whole spectrum, then it does make it better.

 

Unless of course Angreal can be made solo and San'angreal require groups, then it gets sketchy, unless you can make an angreal, then use that to boost your power to make a San'angreal

 

I'm just tossing out random musings here.

 

It seems that there's some correlation between size of the angreal and power. Callandor is bigger than any other angreal we've seen. The giant spheres are, obviously, even bigger. Both Moiraine's new bracelet angreal and the bracelet Lanfear used are supposed to be very power angreal and they are larger than the small woman the Moiraine used from the outset of the book. I'm sure there's a bit of discrepancy - maybe because they learned how to make more powerful angreal in smaller sizes at different points - but I'd bet dollars to donuts that size does matter. ;)

[thisguy]

I actually get what you're saying Vard. My guess is what I said above and that the more powerful the angreal or serangreal is the more time it takes to create. While there must have been far more people who could create them back then who knows how many there really were?

[Vardar]

My point was, having the ability to manufacture something doesn't make it as cost-effective as simpler alternatives. Whether that cost is measured in required skills, production-time, natural resources or money doesn't really make a difference.

 

Oh I know what you're aiming at, but it seems like it would be worth the extra effort since you have a greater range with San'Angreal to stop making Angreal once you know how to make the San.

 

Bigger isn't always better, but if bigger can cover the whole spectrum, then it does make it better.

 

Unless of course Angreal can be made solo and San'angreal require groups, then it gets sketchy, unless you can make an angreal, then use that to boost your power to make a San'angreal

 

I'm just tossing out random musings here.

 

It seems that there's some correlation between size of the angreal and power. Callandor is bigger than any other angreal we've seen. The giant spheres are, obviously, even bigger. Both Moiraine's new bracelet angreal and the bracelet Lanfear used are supposed to be very power angreal and they are larger than the small woman the Moiraine used from the outset of the book. I'm sure there's a bit of discrepancy - maybe because they learned how to make more powerful angreal in smaller sizes at different points - but I'd bet dollars to donuts that size does matter. ;)

 

Cad's angreal is supposed to be pretty powerful and was small. The Rod was fairly small and was the most powerful Sa'angreal the tower has right. I would agree with you normally, but I get the suspicion size doesn't matter that much, they just had fancies about what to make it as. I mean why would you make Callendor a sword? What purpose would it serve?

 

And how much bigger than the palm of your hand is a bracelet (wasn't Moraine's angreal like the size of her palm?) Her new bracelet is nearly a Sa'angreal (Which leads me to wonder what the cut off is and how it's measured)

 

I actually get what you're saying Vard. My guess is what I said above and that the more powerful the angreal or serangreal is the more time it takes to create. While there must have been far more people who could create them back then who knows how many there really were?

 

I would assume that to be the case, however at some point, it would just make more sense to stop manufactoring Angreal and just do Sa'Angreal, since they fufill more than one need, pool resources and make some for everyone.

 

Again, just thoughts.

[Neophyte]

I think he is saying that being able to use a greater raw amount of the One Power is not always helpful. There are some tasks which are better accomplished with small amounts of the Power.

 

I don't think that there are any angreal or sa'angreal that boost a channeler's ability with a Talent, or with, for example, Spirit. There may be some ter'angreal that have that sort of effect, but angreal and sa'angreal simply seem to make a greater total amount of the One Power available - and that isn't always helpful.

 

Think of it as being analogous to using a sledgehammer to tap a tiny wood chisel. Sometimes more isn't better.

 

yYa but that was kinda my point. You can choose to pull less thru an Sa'Angreal or more. You can't pull more than it allows you to pull, but you can use less. So if less power is good, a Sa'angreal accomplishes both.

 

Yes, having a sa'angreal still leaves you the option of using less Power. I guess it's a balance between "How often am I going to need the amount of Power that a sa'angreal provides?" and "How difficult is it to make a sa'angreal?" I mean, having a helicopter, two different sized trucks, a sports car, a speed boat, and a hovercraft in my garage along with my normal car would give me a lot more options, but the effort required to make them all would not be worth the payout ...

 

... unless I'm Batman ...

 

But seriously, I think the rarity of angreal and sa'angreal speaks to the difficulty of their manufacture relative to their everyday usefulness. Even in the Age of Legends, I doubt that your everyday Aes Sedai needed such tools on a regular basis - or even occasionally. Remember that there were things called "standing flows" ... I don't think we're sure exactly how those worked, but they seemed to provide Power-based energy to many well-engineered ter'angreal that did the big stuff that might otherwise have needed an angreal or sa'angreal.

 

So, there isn't really any situation in which having an angreal or sa'angreal available is a problem, much in the same way that having a full range of vehicles available would never stop you getting in your normal car and driving. But the effort of making a hundred thousand of them would not be worth the payoff, because 99% of the time, you just don't need them. Not many people have lives like our heroes, or their enemies.

[thisguy]

My point was, having the ability to manufacture something doesn't make it as cost-effective as simpler alternatives. Whether that cost is measured in required skills, production-time, natural resources or money doesn't really make a difference.

 

Oh I know what you're aiming at, but it seems like it would be worth the extra effort since you have a greater range with San'Angreal to stop making Angreal once you know how to make the San.

 

Bigger isn't always better, but if bigger can cover the whole spectrum, then it does make it better.

 

Unless of course Angreal can be made solo and San'angreal require groups, then it gets sketchy, unless you can make an angreal, then use that to boost your power to make a San'angreal

 

I'm just tossing out random musings here.

 

It seems that there's some correlation between size of the angreal and power. Callandor is bigger than any other angreal we've seen. The giant spheres are, obviously, even bigger. Both Moiraine's new bracelet angreal and the bracelet Lanfear used are supposed to be very power angreal and they are larger than the small woman the Moiraine used from the outset of the book. I'm sure there's a bit of discrepancy - maybe because they learned how to make more powerful angreal in smaller sizes at different points - but I'd bet dollars to donuts that size does matter. ;)

 

Cad's angreal is supposed to be pretty powerful and was small. The Rod was fairly small and was the most powerful Sa'angreal the tower has right. I would agree with you normally, but I get the suspicion size doesn't matter that much, they just had fancies about what to make it as. I mean why would you make Callendor a sword? What purpose would it serve?

 

And how much bigger than the palm of your hand is a bracelet (wasn't Moraine's angreal like the size of her palm?) Her new bracelet is nearly a Sa'angreal (Which leads me to wonder what the cut off is and how it's measured)

 

I actually get what you're saying Vard. My guess is what I said above and that the more powerful the angreal or serangreal is the more time it takes to create. While there must have been far more people who could create them back then who knows how many there really were?

 

I would assume that to be the case, however at some point, it would just make more sense to stop manufactoring Angreal and just do Sa'Angreal, since they fufill more than one need, pool resources and make some for everyone.

 

Again, just thoughts.

Yeah, no worries. I like to throw these thoughts around, too. It's all good.

 

Who knows? We know so little of the AOL. Since there was no war before breaking the seal, angreal may have been used in hospitals and what not. The two most powerful sa'angreal we know about were created after they began battling the DO. Maybe the didn't create what they didn't need.... They may have also started to experiment even more after the battle began so maybe they learned how to make them even more powerful those last few hundred years before the Age ended.