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A 3rd Sa' angreal?


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So to start off I have no idea whether this has been mentioned before. I only remember hearing about the two statue sa' angreal and callindor, but as I was re-reading the shadow rising, when Lanfear visits Rand's rooms in the stone of tear she mentions that she knows of only two sa' angreal more powerful than Callindor; so the statue and... what? I might just be not remembering something, as I read the series a little while ago, but I thought I would have remembered something like that, so correct me if I'm wrong, but was there another sa' angreal and is it important or mentioned again?

Edited by Brendan2499
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You are correct in what she said Brendan, additionally she said "One, I know, still exists" referring to the male Choden Kal. As far as I know, it's never been brought up again in the books. This passage has brought no small speculation. Some have speculated that the "Ring of Tamyrlin" is/was the other sa'angreal. The ring, supposedly named after -or created by - the first person who discovered how to channel, was a symbol of office in the AoL for the leader of the Aes Sedai, last known wearer was LTT.

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Probably not related but I've always wondered what item in the WT storage room that first need search(before Elayne & Nyn found the BoW) took them to.

That's a good one there Suttree. I'd forgotten about that. Considering Egewne needed another sister to help her identify items that could be of use during the Seanchan raid, it certainly doesn't seem very organized and who knows what migh be down there.

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When Egewne first visits Tanchico in the dream she is drawn to what apears to be, to the reader, a reflection of another female "access key" ter/sa'angreal. The way it is described - she feels pulled towards it, like the link that she witnessed in the healing of Mat, or Rand when he first walked by the sa'angreal outside cairhien.

 

Has that passage ever been cleared up?

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As I recall wasn't it assumed by most that the sa'angreal in question was the ring of Tamyrlin?

Maybe so, but I think it's more likely to be the stone ring ter'angreal.

That's a new one, for me. Why, do you figure?

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I have always found the idea that the ring of tamyrlin would be this other superstrong sa'angreal quite absurd. Because Why would an object that is the symbol for an office that can be held by two genders at the same time be an object that can only be used by one of those?

 

If there indeed was anything special about this ring, at the most it should have been a ter'angreal that could be used by both men and women.

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As I recall wasn't it assumed by most that the sa'angreal in question was the ring of Tamyrlin?

Maybe so, but I think it's more likely to be the stone ring ter'angreal.

That's a new one, for me. Why, do you figure?

 

It's just barely too large for a finger ring...for young girls. Probably perfect for a man's finger. Not saying it's necessarily true, but it fits.

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When Egewne first visits Tanchico in the dream she is drawn to what apears to be, to the reader, a reflection of another female "access key" ter/sa'angreal. The way it is described - she feels pulled towards it, like the link that she witnessed in the healing of Mat, or Rand when he first walked by the sa'angreal outside cairhien.

 

Has that passage ever been cleared up?

That was a damaged access key to the female Choden Kal on display in the Panarch's palace, it would have been extremely dangerous to use, and now that the female sa'angreal melted down on Tremalking even an intact access key would be useless, or even worse, potentially fatal to attempt use.

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I can see why the Ring of Tamyrlin is thought of, but I agree, it doesn't make sense.

 

Tamyrlin is supposedly the person who discovered channelling(of course, in this turning of the wheel). How on earth would they be able to a) even make an angreal and b) one of the most powerful sa'angreal at that! I mean, channelling was just discovered. I would think that they would be one of the crappiest channellers around. Learning how to channel consistently is hard enough when you do have a teacher, I don't see how they possibly could have created an angreal, let alone a sa'angreal or even ter'angreal.

 

This is, of course, assuming that the stories about the Ring and Tamyrlin are true. And I suppose it need not have been created by Tamyrlin, they could have found it, a relic of another age.

 

The Glossary of Eye of the World: To the Blight does hint at the possibility though....

 

 

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): (TTB) A legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal orter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the True Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

 

And, LTT died with the Ring on, and Rand, with LTT memories was at Dragonmount...

 

 

Still, I do think it is not the case. Although I wonder why nobody has thought it might have been found by the Shadow, or by someone else hiding it? I'll agree that the best chance is that it is one of the unknown objects that no AS has figured out yet, or in a stash somewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if Moridin had found it. He would have reason not to be using it, since he isn't involved in the actual fighting, and doesn't want Rand dead just yet. He certainly wouldn't give it to Demandred to kill Mat or Perrin. Demandred would just as likely kill Moridin and the other Forsaken and Rand while he is at it. (Although, on an aside, Mesaana says she knows Demandred hasn't found any angreal, or else he would have "launched himself" at Rand by now. Could be a sneaky forshadowing? not likely)

 

It would actually make sense for the Shadow to have this. Rand has Callandor which is a head above every other angreal/sa'angreal we know of. In a circle, nobody could match him. They would have to try sneak attacks. But if the Shadow had their hands on the one remaining (male) sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor....

 

Edit: Just editing "male" in, something came to mind. What about female sa'angreal, could there be a few stronger than Callandor? There is no reason to think that sa'angreal work like channelling, that males are on average stronger than female. Maybe Lanfear, Graendal or Moggy get their hands on one? Or Moiraine knows of one (a question from the finns?) Or one of the wondergirls finds one?

 

I suppose I am just hoping the Shadow does something awesome. I am content with the fact that the Shadow has been holding back, letting the Lord of Chaos Rule for the previous books, but now that it is full scale war, I expect the Shadow to live up to its expectations.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I can see why the Ring of Tamyrlin is thought of, but I agree, it doesn't make sense.

 

Tamyrlin is supposedly the person who discovered channelling(of course, in this turning of the wheel). How on earth would they be able to a) even make an angreal and b) one of the most powerful sa'angreal at that! I mean, channelling was just discovered. I would think that they would be one of the crappiest channellers around. Learning how to channel consistently is hard enough when you do have a teacher, I don't see how they possibly could have created an angreal, let alone a sa'angreal or even ter'angreal.

 

This is, of course, assuming that the stories about the Ring and Tamyrlin are true. And I suppose it need not have been created by Tamyrlin, they could have found it, a relic of another age.

 

The Glossary of Eye of the World: To the Blight does hint at the possibility though....

 

 

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): (TTB) A legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal orter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the True Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

 

And, LTT died with the Ring on, and Rand, with LTT memories was at Dragonmount...

 

 

Still, I do think it is not the case. Although I wonder why nobody has thought it might have been found by the Shadow, or by someone else hiding it? I'll agree that the best chance is that it is one of the unknown objects that no AS has figured out yet, or in a stash somewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if Moridin had found it. He would have reason not to be using it, since he isn't involved in the actual fighting, and doesn't want Rand dead just yet. He certainly wouldn't give it to Demandred to kill Mat or Perrin. Demandred would just as likely kill Moridin and the other Forsaken and Rand while he is at it. (Although, on an aside, Mesaana says she knows Demandred hasn't found any angreal, or else he would have "launched himself" at Rand by now. Could be a sneaky forshadowing? not likely)

 

It would actually make sense for the Shadow to have this. Rand has Callandor which is a head above every other angreal/sa'angreal we know of. In a circle, nobody could match him. They would have to try sneak attacks. But if the Shadow had their hands on the one remaining (male) sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor....

 

Edit: Just editing "male" in, something came to mind. What about female sa'angreal, could there be a few stronger than Callandor? There is no reason to think that sa'angreal work like channelling, that males are on average stronger than female. Maybe Lanfear, Graendal or Moggy get their hands on one? Or Moiraine knows of one (a question from the finns?) Or one of the wondergirls finds one?

 

I suppose I am just hoping the Shadow does something awesome. I am content with the fact that the Shadow has been holding back, letting the Lord of Chaos Rule for the previous books, but now that it is full scale war, I expect the Shadow to live up to its expectations.

 

LTT did not have the ring on when he died. Ishmael when confronting him in the prologue, says "once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin..." Not that I believe that it is a SA.

Edited by Xo Meltdown oX
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ha, you are right, it has been ages since I read EotW, all I remembered of the prologue was LTT=RoT, obviously not in the way I thought.

 

Well, if the ring is anywhere, it would be in the White Tower. I think that such a legendary and important thing would be among the first and foremost to be safeguarded, even if the AS have forgotten why or what they are guarding.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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ha, you are right, it has been ages since I read EotW, all I remembered of the prologue was LTT=RoT, obviously not in the way I thought.

 

Well, if the ring is anywhere, it would be in the White Tower. I think that such a legendary and important thing would be among the first and foremost to be safeguarded, even if the AS have forgotten why or what they are guarding.

 

You mean like Callandor and the Choden Kal were in Tar Valon?

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1. They intentionally placed Callandor in the Stone as per prophecy.

 

2. It would be a bit hard to move two massive statues such as the Chodean Kal, and getting near them would be constantly dangerous.

 

But seriously, they hid the access keys from the Shadow, for fear of someone actually using them. (they were only built to contain the DO, not any other use, as they were too powerful) The ones that hid them didn't dare tell anyone where they were hidden, in case the Shadow got a hold of them.

 

It is explained in the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

According to the manuscript pages, all of the agents responsible for this smuggling were caught, though that was not known until events had far outrun anyone's plans. They were brave men and women, for although those who were not killed outright were tortured, and though some revealed the purpose of their mission, none betrayed the location of any of the access ter'angreal. Still, the only real result was that the ter'angreal were widely scattered across areas held for the Shadow, their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia.
Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I also think it unlikely the ring of Tamyrlin was a sa'angreal.

 

I must say, I'd never considered the idea that the Twisted Ring was the Ring of Tamyrlin, but I like it. Firstly, it explains why of all the Dream ter'angreal it alone works perfectly. Secondly it allows for conversation and organisation (as well as exploration) which as a tool of the office of First Amongst Servants makes a lot of sense, as too does its value to Tamyrlin originally--possibly the way in which channelers came to know one another and unite. Channelers, especially those strong in Spirit, touch the Dream World heavily. It also makes an interesting fact of Egwene being a Dreamwalker and the 'Amyrlin' to bring the Tower back on path.

 

I like this thought.

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1. They intentionally placed Callandor in the Stone as per prophecy.

 

2. It would be a bit hard to move two massive statues such as the Chodean Kal, and getting near them would be constantly dangerous.

 

But seriously, they hid the access keys from the Shadow, for fear of someone actually using them. (they were only built to contain the DO, not any other use, as they were too powerful) The ones that hid them didn't dare tell anyone where they were hidden, in case the Shadow got a hold of them.

 

It is explained in the Strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

According to the manuscript pages, all of the agents responsible for this smuggling were caught, though that was not known until events had far outrun anyone's plans. They were brave men and women, for although those who were not killed outright were tortured, and though some revealed the purpose of their mission, none betrayed the location of any of the access ter'angreal. Still, the only real result was that the ter'angreal were widely scattered across areas held for the Shadow, their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia.

 

And after the war was over they apparently gathered them again and entrusted them to the Aiel. Well, be that as it may, my point remains the ring of Tamyrlin could just as easily have been in the Stone or in Rhuidean or as small as it is really anywhere as in Tar Valon.

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And after the war was over they apparently gathered them again and entrusted them to the Aiel. Well, be that as it may, my point remains the ring of Tamyrlin could just as easily have been in the Stone or in Rhuidean or as small as it is really anywhere as in Tar Valon.

 

They didn't. Not intentionally. "their locations and even their existence to remain hidden for millennia."

 

But yeah, I get your point.

 

Anyway, point being, there were good reasons for not storing Callandor and the CK in TV, and it would be valid for them to make sure such an important item as the RoT was safe in the Tower, specially since it was the Ring of the 2nd age First Among Servants (unless, of course, it has some super-power, in which case it may be the same as the CK, and they had to hide it, but I believe it doesn't have any extraordinarily dangerous power)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I don't think the Aiel smuggled the Access Keys out, I rather suspect they were placed there after Rhuidian was built, otherwise all those random Aes Sedai who raided the caravans for Angreal and Sa'Angreal would have taken them.

 

Also I would think the Ring if it was the actual Ring of Tamyrlin would just be a ring and be nothing actually special, just a sign of office for whoever is the First Among Servants.

 

Also the guy who mentioned the quote from Ishmael about how Lews HAD worn the Ring of Tamyrlin I think it was more referring to the office, since the order was broken up he was no longer the leader of anything even if he still had the physical Ring.

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Probably not related but I've always wondered what item in the WT storage room that first need search(before Elayne & Nyn found the BoW) took them to.

 

I'm very suspicious they were taken to the Oath Rod. If I recall correctly, they were concentrating specifically on the need for something to MAKE the Hall not go back to Elaida (with the obvious end of coming out to support Rand more openly I guess). The next jump took them to something having absolutely nothing to do with that need because they decided to focus on "needing a ter'angreal not in Tar Valon". If I'm right about them being led to the Oath Rod, then it would make for a nice bit of early book foreshadowing of the Aes Sedai swearing fealty to Rand at the end of the book. :wink:

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