What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Edynol]

Yep. And I think they were all there at Tear as well in TDR. They may not have all been together, but they were all there at the same time at the end. So either one could be Min's viewing. See at SL, everyone had a part to play. Mo and Lan met up with Ny and showed her she could channel, which set her on her path. Thom led Rand and Mat to from Whitebridge and without him they might not have escaped the Myrddraal. And without Perrin, Ellyas probably would've never even bother with Eggy thus leading to her getting lost.

 

At Tear, We know what Mo, Lan, and their group needed to be there for. We know what Rand needed to be there as well as Mat. As for Thom, if he didn't get sick, Mat never would've took him to the wise woman and learned what happened to the girls. So we got two instances here where in some way, big or small, all of them, including Thom, needed to be there.

 

Edit: Personally, I think Min was talking about the whole enchilada, the whole series. Because everyone has had a major part to play.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Edynol

[Barid Bel Medar]

Thanks suttree, I do enjoy this thread, good posts all round for the most part anyway.

 

 

 

I think this shows that she knows she has no part in the actual sealing of the bore. She knows her job will be to save as many people as she can, and rebuild afterwards.

 

 

 

this is the part I disagree with as we know since first book she is going to be one of the people who are going to be present at the sealing of the bore. There was a MIN's viewing to this effect. As an aside Barid you are such a nice person and I respect you immensely for your niceness and positive outlook but if you are trying to sell me eggy ? I am not buying

 

I doubt you will change your mind, no matter what happens, even if she throws herself at Rand's feet and begs his forgiveness, it is not one of my priorities to convince you.

 

I don't really mind if anyone actually buys it, I am just presenting my opinion.

 

I don't see why it is "selling" Egwene? Most of what I said (most) just states that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for her actions.

 

As for the "evidence", well, I would hardly say that really affects anything in my statement, but perhaps I should rephrase it to make it clearer.

 

Egwene knows that she cannot understand or find out how to re-seal the bore. Or, she doesn't think so. It is something virtually impossible for her to contemplate, let alone solve. Now, as for her not setting people to research, that is another matter, something which we do not have enough information on.

 

The quote, as supplied, says nothing about sealing the bore. This could refer to any number of things as explored. Personally, I agree with Edynol that this refers to TG in general.

 

Assuming you are correct and that Egwene will be present at the actual re-sealing, it still does not actually refute anything I have said.

 

1."We all know". This is the main problem. Egwene does not have access to the novels, nor does she know everything that happens. Has SHE heard this vision? (honestly, I can't remember )

2. If she did, did she interpret it the same way you did?

3. Does she even remember?

4. Being "present" does not mean she needs any actual knowledge or idea of what she is doing.

 

On a related note, but not actually a reply to this comment, here is a quote that is interesting.

 

 

 

Towers of Midnight: Chapter Three: The Amyrlin's Anger

 

Light, she thought. I am wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I am here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

.......

Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Bold is of course mine.

 

It helps with my assessment of the situation. Now, as we know, when Rand says he is going to break the seals, this type of thinking goes out the window, as it would, she would be damn shocked.

My point is, when the shock has worn off, Rand's Ta'veren effect isn't pulling at her, and she is not facing off with the Dragon Reborn in front of the Hall of the Tower, she would have time to think.

 

She is already halfway towards realising what Rand is about. They are both there for a reason. She has to trust Rand. You could trust him with anything.

 

These thoughts reflect my theory, once she had time to think about it, these thoughts come back and putting 2 and 2 together....

[Kahsm]

Thanks suttree, I do enjoy this thread, good posts all round for the most part anyway.

 

 

 

I think this shows that she knows she has no part in the actual sealing of the bore. She knows her job will be to save as many people as she can, and rebuild afterwards.

 

 

 

this is the part I disagree with as we know since first book she is going to be one of the people who are going to be present at the sealing of the bore. There was a MIN's viewing to this effect. As an aside Barid you are such a nice person and I respect you immensely for your niceness and positive outlook but if you are trying to sell me eggy ? I am not buying

 

I doubt you will change your mind, no matter what happens, even if she throws herself at Rand's feet and begs his forgiveness, it is not one of my priorities to convince you.

 

I don't really mind if anyone actually buys it, I am just presenting my opinion.

 

I don't see why it is "selling" Egwene? Most of what I said (most) just states that there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for her actions.

 

As for the "evidence", well, I would hardly say that really affects anything in my statement, but perhaps I should rephrase it to make it clearer.

 

Egwene knows that she cannot understand or find out how to re-seal the bore. Or, she doesn't think so. It is something virtually impossible for her to contemplate, let alone solve. Now, as for her not setting people to research, that is another matter, something which we do not have enough information on.

 

The quote, as supplied, says nothing about sealing the bore. This could refer to any number of things as explored. Personally, I agree with Edynol that this refers to TG in general.

 

Assuming you are correct and that Egwene will be present at the actual re-sealing, it still does not actually refute anything I have said.

 

1."We all know". This is the main problem. Egwene does not have access to the novels, nor does she know everything that happens. Has SHE heard this vision? (honestly, I can't remember )

2. If she did, did she interpret it the same way you did?

3. Does she even remember?

4. Being "present" does not mean she needs any actual knowledge or idea of what she is doing.

 

On a related note, but not actually a reply to this comment, here is a quote that is interesting.

 

 

 

Towers of Midnight: Chapter Three: The Amyrlin's Anger

 

Light, she thought. I am wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I am here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

.......

Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Bold is of course mine.

 

It helps with my assessment of the situation. Now, as we know, when Rand says he is going to break the seals, this type of thinking goes out the window, as it would, she would be damn shocked.

My point is, when the shock has worn off, Rand's Ta'veren effect isn't pulling at her, and she is not facing off with the Dragon Reborn in front of the Hall of the Tower, she would have time to think.

 

She is already halfway towards realising what Rand is about. They are both there for a reason. She has to trust Rand. You could trust him with anything.

 

These thoughts reflect my theory, once she had time to think about it, these thoughts come back and putting 2 and 2 together....

 

While I agree with just about everything here. I'm not convinced she'll change her position until she's given more of a reason to do so. And that will be up to Rand. Of course, we're assuming he wants her to change her position... I believe he only asked Nynaeve to temper her temper, not to change her mind.

[Barid Bel Medar]

While I agree with just about everything here. I'm not convinced she'll change her position until she's given more of a reason to do so. And that will be up to Rand. Of course, we're assuming he wants her to change her position... I believe he only asked Nynaeve to temper her temper, not to change her mind.

 

I agree with you, I seem to explain myself poorly.

 

I am NOT saying that she has changed her mind. I am saying she is trusting Rand will give her an explanation. If he doesn't she will oppose him. But I AM saying that she is not blindly opposed to him as it seems.

 

The difference I am seeing is this.

 

What it seems like Egwene is thinking: Rand wants to break seals. Bad idea. Stop Rand.

 

What I propose she is thinking: Alright, I see what you did there. Done what needed to be done, now Rand better have come up with those answers or I will be forced to act.

 

As for Rand not wanting to change her position, I don't think he wants to really. Or, he does want to, but he just doesn't care one way or another. But not really important to my point, just what Egwene is thinking, not Rand.

 

Oh, on another note with regards to Nynaeve, of course he didn't want her to change her mind then. She wouldn't have any reason to gather everyone like he wants her to, he wants Nynaeve to "temper her temper" so it is easier on him when the time comes.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Manscher]

As Randsc said, none of us really denies Egwene or the WTs importance in TG, but they kinda need to get knocked down a few pegs.

 

Dude seriously what books have you been reading? How much lower can they go? They quite obviously have bottomed out.

 

Yes they have been trashed pretty badly, but problem just is, those blasted Aes Sedai haven't actually learned a SINGLE thing yet. The Sitters are still talking about guiding(Read: Control) Rand, and they are still outragous about the fact that Asha'man have bonded Aes Sedai, yet completely oblivious to the opposite happening as well.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Manscher

[Edynol]

Just nit picking, but it was Siuan he asked to temper her temper, Nynaeve wasn't there yet. lol.

 

Anyways, I agree with Barid. We do not know if Eggy will be there at the sealing. While I think she will be, I could also see her doing something else, like dealing with the Seanchan at the WT or one of the Forsaken. All we got right now are theories, no one knows except those working on the book.

[TommyRocker]

She is arrogant, self-righteous, hypocritical, and a bully. She has seen what "modern" Aes Sedai really are (self-righteous, schoolgirl style bullies who believe in their natural born superiority over lesser beings) and has decided that, since she fits in and is in a place of power now, she will work to further their cause. Now that she recognizes just how incompetent, childish, cowardly, and useless Aes Sedai really are, she had a chance to really turn it around, but isn't. She brow-beats those who don't agree with her, she belittles those who have proven more capable and more useful than herself for anything they mess up. She is pushing the mentality that these women who are born with this ability are superior beings to all others even though they prove time and again that they aren't. This is similar to the KKK believing that whites are superior to all others, regardless of true merit, because they were born white. She has first hand experience showing the superiority of the Aiel wise ones in every way except some weaves, but she still works to push HER sect into the supreme position of power in the world, manipulating her former teachers and friends into a position of servitude to the tower under the guise of mutual respect and fellowship. For all her strength in the power(which she was born with and didn't have to earn) and her title(which was thrust upon her and then really secured by Siuan) and her apparent ability to scheme and manipulate people, she is still just a teenaged girl with a lot of power, and she regularly shows how inexperienced and childish she really is.

 

And then, to make matters worse, she fights Rand and refuses to listen to opposing opinions or to see reason, based solely on the fact that she feels the need to further the Tower's influence on the world and to dominate the Dragon because she knows best(naturally, all teenaged girls know what's best). She refuses to truly acknowledge that the taint is healed, still insisting that male channelers must be controlled like pets. She is a dictator. A schoolyard bully given the reigns of one of the most powerful and influential societies in the world. While all the other Emond's Fielders (possibly with the comical exception of Matrim) have been humbled and bettered by their newfound positions of power and responsibility, Egwene has turned from the beautiful girl next door to a power hungry tyrant. For the greater good...

 

 

The saddest part of this is that I think she may be the most realistic character.

 

 

EDIT TO ADD: Even though she had posibly the greatest of modern Aes Sedai as her mentor, she turned into all the worst they have to offer, and everything the rest of the world distrusts and despises about the organization.

Edited April 20, 2012 by TommyRocker

[MasterAblar]

I agree with you, I seem to explain myself poorly.

 

I am NOT saying that she has changed her mind. I am saying she is trusting Rand will give her an explanation. If he doesn't she will oppose him. But I AM saying that she is not blindly opposed to him as it seems.

 

The difference I am seeing is this.

 

What it seems like Egwene is thinking: Rand wants to break seals. Bad idea. Stop Rand.

 

What I propose she is thinking: Alright, I see what you did there. Done what needed to be done, now Rand better have come up with those answers or I will be forced to act.

 

The problem is that the the second option isn't supported in the book, whereas the first is. Egwene's thoughts on the matter match her words and her acts. She has never actually considered that Rand might be right. While she seems to have figured out that Rand intended that she gather the various armies, she thinks that he did so that she could stop him, a subconscious plea for help from him. She's already come up with an explanation for why Rand wanted her to gather the armies. The problem is she's assigned a reason to his actions that fits with her view on the matter, instead of re-examinating her own view on it. She's not expecting answers from him because she already thinks he's wrong.

 

You've said that she has not bothered with learning more about how the bore must be sealed because she doesn't think she has enough time to do so. However that has not stopped her from claiming that Rand should be able to seal the DO without breaking the seals. If she were really waiting for Rand to explain himself to her before deciding whether or not to oppose him, then why make that claim, and why base her opposition to Rand on it?

 

As for Rand not wanting

to change her position, I don't think he wants to really. Or, he does want to, but he just doesn't care one way or another. But not really important to my point, just what Egwene is thinking, not Rand.

 

Oh, on another note with regards to Nynaeve, of course he didn't want her to change her mind then. She wouldn't have any reason to gather everyone like he wants her to, he wants Nynaeve to "temper her temper" so it is easier on him when the time comes.

 

Rand asked Nyneave to convince Egwene, after Nyneave said that she believed him. So he'd rather she be on his side, but as we saw in the epilogue, he's going to go ahead with his plan no matter what she says.

[kght22]

heh, if suian stopped acting like a lovestruck girl at her 15th bel'tine she could likely explain the situation to egwene. egwene thinks she knows the game because of her success with the aes'sedai, suian is a true master only surpassed by morgause, moiraine, and thom. maybe dylin(?) as well, elayne wouldn't have survived without her. even elayne is still pretty inexperienced in the game, though damn good. rand dropped a bomb, but a bomb that can be understood when you read between the lines. egwene clearly understands part of it, but she is missing the biggest part, it is a meeting he didn't need to have to do what he intended, he needs armies, and she knows that, he needs a plan, and she knows that, something she doesn't seem to know is that he needs support. not her support in specific, but the support of the people who will be fighting for him, because that support will strengthen those who fight for him, his people need a cause. that is what the meeting is about, and she is skipping over it because it is too glaringly obvious. but where does an aes'sedai hide something? right in front of your face.

[Kahsm]

"I'm happy for you, Elayne," Egwene said. "And for Rand. I'm not certain what I think of the timing. You should know that Rand is planning to break the remaining seals upon the Dark One's prison, and in so doing, risk releasing him upon the world."

Elayne pursed her lips. "Well, there are only three seals left, and they're crumbling."

"So what if he is running that risk?" Nynaeve said. "The Dark One will be freed when the final seal crumbles; best if it happens when Rand is there to battle him."

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

"Maybe you're right," Nynaeve said.

 

 

Nynaeve frowned. "But Rand, if you let him free, won't that make it even worse?"

"Perhaps for a short burst," Rand said. "Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, though it will give him more strength. It must be done regardless. Think of our task as climbing a tall stone wall. Unfortunately, we are delaying, running laps before attempting the climb. Each step tires us for the fight to come. We must face him while still strong. That is why I must break the seals."

"I . . ." Nynaeve said. "I think I actually believe you." She was surprised to realize it.

"Do you, Nynaeve?" he asked, sounding oddly relieved. "Do you really?"

"I do."

"Then try to convince Egwene. She will stop me, if she can."

 

You are correct. Though I added the first one just because in my search I found it first, and it's interesting that Nynaeve saw Egwene's point originally too. But it's still completely unreasonable despite the fact that Nynaeve, Elayne, and the Wise Ones all agreed with Egwene when they were first told?

 

And the of course Nynaeve very well could have been Ta'veren influenced. I mean it's almost silly of Rand to have appeared "oddly relieved". You'd think he'd wonder the same thing, he knows what he does to people.

 

And if Rand himself is oddly relieved, the man who supposedly knows that he's right can't trust himself completely, why should Egwene be expected to?

[randsc]

Note that neither Nynaeve nor Elayne committed themselves to Egwene's position...

[Kahsm]

Note that neither Nynaeve nor Elayne committed themselves to Egwene's position...

Nor did they have the visceral reaction some readers have, since they know she has good reason, given what she knows. Even Rand knows it.

[randsc]

Rand knows that she will react as she did "good" reason or not. He is counting on it, in fact. Ironically, if she knew that, she might re-examine her position.

[MasterAblar]

Ironically, if she knew that, she might re-examine her position.

 

That what you'd expect, but Egwene has not done so inspite of the fact that she has come to the conclusion that Rand wanted her to gather the armies. Instead of re-examining her position she's decided that he subconsciously wants her to stop him, which, shockingly, happens to be quite fortunate for her, since that's precisely what she is trying to do.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Suttree]

She has first hand experience showing the superiority of the Aiel wise ones in every way except some weaves, but she still works to push HER sect into the supreme position of power in the world, manipulating her former teachers and friends into a position of servitude to the tower under the guise of mutual respect and fellowship.

 

While your interpretation of AS seems very extreme, you are of course welcome to it and I won't get into all of your points. The WT as an institution has of course failed but this is a fallen world. We have seen AS be awesome, we have seen them be awesomely terrible and then there are the average ones just out doing work in the world. Bottom line they have been the major force against the shadow for 3,000 years.

 

I assume by the above you are referring to the channeling exchange program? This program will foster cooperation and understanding, it is one of the single most important reforms she has instituted so far. I have seen comments such as yours a couple times but maybe you can be the first person in the history of DM to be able to explain how this deal is unfair and gives the AS any advantage in being able to control the other groups? Not to say all the groups will not be jockeying for position, you would be extremely naive to think the WOs and WFs won't be looking to their best interests(hence the "play best" quote). Regardless sending accepted to live with the other cultures will do more than anything to change the attitude of the WT for the better. The deal does not in any way put the WT in a position to enforce "servitude" from the other groups, that is just a ridiculous claim. As was stated Egwene said flat out the WT needs to change and can't hold to the old ways. She has already done more with her reforms than any Amrylin since the Trolloc Wars.

 

And then, to make matters worse, she fights Rand and refuses to listen to opposing opinions or to see reason, based solely on the fact that she feels the need to further the Tower's influence on the world and to dominate the Dragon because she knows best(naturally, all teenaged girls know what's best). She refuses to truly acknowledge that the taint is healed, still insisting that male channelers must be controlled like pets.

 

As has been pointed out numerous times there has been no "reason" offered. Rand has no idea how he will seal the bore and refused to discuss the situation with her. He purposely antagonized her to get this reaction, we just don't know why yet.

 

As for the taint Egwene & the AS do believe it has been cleaned, that is made clear IIRC. Per Rand though the majority of the world does not which is very realistic. You don't change 3,000 years of prejudice over night.

 

TGS

 

Not much different from what his own people did in gentling men, truth be told. “Saidin is cleansed now,” he said to her. “This practice must stop.”

 

She pursed her lips, regarding him. “Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”

 

“It is true,” he said firmly.

 

“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”

 

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Wanted to chime in on some posts couple of pages back that Egwene and the AS will play the most crucial role in the world post last battle. If you think about it, in a medieval world which is the third age where physical strength is important, women naturally should not be leaders to the extent that they are in Randland. If you look at our own history women have largely played a secondary role to men upto after the second world war when the explosion of technology made physical strength not that much of a factor in daily life thus allowing women an equal footing.

 

So coming back to the third age where physical strength is crucial, the only reason women are predominant is that they can access the OP safetly. The dominance of the OP wielding AS has filtered into society thus giving women an unnaturally greater role than they would have in a low technology world. After the LB, men will start wielding the OP and as the world will still remain a low tech world largely(after all steam engines are just getting developed),the women role will fall back to their more suitable position in such a world. I doubt any woman or a woman's organization will do much leading in such a scenario.

[Kahsm]

Ironically, if she knew that, she might re-examine her position.

 

That what you'd expect, but Egwene has not done so inspite of the fact that she has come to the conclusion that Rand wanted her to gather the armies. Instead of re-examining her position she's decided that he subconsciously wants her to stop him, which, shockingly, happens to be quite fortunate for her, since that's precisely what she is trying to do.

 

What? You are suggesting that because she thought he wanted her to oppose him she should change her mind? That would be opposition for opposition's sake, and exactly what she is accused of and what she is not guilty of. She should not deviate from what she believes, logically and responsibly, is right, just because Rand might be pulling strings.

[Feanor-X]

Would it be OK if I dislike her because of her obvious ADD?

Every single time Egwene comes across something that would benefit her personally more than the task she was doing at the time, she immediately changes courses, and promptly dumps whatever she had been doing up until that point. (And occasionally proceeds to mentally or verbally crap all over it as well)

 

1. When we first meet her, she's training to become a wisdom. Apparently something she believes is important and puts a great deal of time into. By the time the party has crossed the Taren, she has utterly abandoned the idea in favor of becoming an Aes Sedai. More frustrating is her attitude regarding her former passion when, after ending up in Tear chasing the Black Ajah, she calls Nyneave down for wasting time talking about herbs. Even later, after Nyneave's confession about having been drugged with forkroot, she complains how Nyneave used to 'drone on and on about herbs', because obviously medicinal knowledge is useless.

 

2. At the beginning of the tSR, instead of continuing on the hunt for the black ajah (an immensely important task assigned to her and Nyneave personally by the Amyrlin Seat) she decides that she'd much rather make Nyneave and Elayne shoulder the burden, while she takes off to study dreamwalking with the Aiel.

 

3. When she's summoned to salidar, she instantly drops what she's been putting her heart and soul into for months and goes off to "Help Rand" in some why by doing this. That is, until the new and much more shiny Amyrlin's Stole is waved in front of her face. From then on it's 'screw all those other stupid things everyone else is doing (fighting wars, hunting black sisters, fighting forsaken, trying to save the world) this is what I'm doing now.

 

4. As Amyrlin she seems to be doing a fine job of attracting recruits, new novices, securing herself as an actual political power, and actually making the first actually offensive move in her campaign (sealing the harbors) is finally convinced that she will have forcibly remove Elaida... and then she gets captured. She forbids any rescue attempts because... AH HA! She will undermine and bring down Elaida from within.

 

From then on she changes directions so rapidly that it becomes almost dizzying

- No, don't bring the tower down, keep it from falling apart.

- (After the seanchan attack) Really gonna take Tar Valon by force.

- No wait, since the Tower Aes Sedai want me to be Amrylin I will castigate the rebels for... being rebels! (She was a rebel too, but that was two whole hours ago, so that doesn't count.)

[elric]

since it 23 long thread pleae forgive me for not reading the entire thread before posting.

 

there 2 things the bug me about Egwene

1 her fault the other is circumstencial.

 

the first is her arrogence.

one of the scene that reaaly annoy me was in Salidar, Suian the former Emiralin, Egewene mentor, the woman who is legendary in politic and intrigue, tell Egwene that there a strange pattern in salidar sitter choosing , and the mighty baby from her vast experiment of 18/19 years and months of starting to learn politic not only dismiss this but literally thnking about ordering Suian what to think.

personally i found it as the height of arrogence.

 

the second is:

i reaaly dont like how the AS was written down to protrait Egwene as so mighty, woman who have centuriews of political experiment acting like blind idiots without any shred of logic just so Egwene simple solutions will shine brightly.

[muddasssir]

@Feanor welcome to Dm and just a word to wise you have kicked hornets' nest literally. Any way enjoy your stay and have a great time righ tup to the release of AMOL and beyond

[Saken]

I am trying to figure out how Egwene is going to oppose Rand. The only way is with words or does she plan to use her army. If she does, then the Dark One will win for sure. She isn't focused on the good of the world, she is focused on healing the White Tower and how she can't seem subservient to anyone. I am the Amyrlin, and I am the most important person in the world. I must guide the DR and that means he must be brought to task, he must do what the AS feel is the proper course of action.

 

It is strange that all of the Two River's crew is following Rand's lead except Egwene.

 

In short, I do not like Egwene but my dislike for her fails to compare for my dislike of Elayne.

[Suttree]

I am trying to figure out how Egwene is going to oppose Rand. The only way is with words or does she plan to use her army. If she does, then the Dark One will win for sure. She isn't focused on the good of the world, she is focused on healing the White Tower and how she can't seem subservient to anyone. I am the Amyrlin, and I am the most important person in the world. I must guide the DR and that means he must be brought to task, he must do what the AS feel is the proper course of action.

 

It is strange that all of the Two River's crew is following Rand's lead except Egwene.

 

In short, I do not like Egwene but my dislike for her fails to compare for my dislike of Elayne.

 

To the contrary the reason she feels the need to heal the WT is for the greater good. We are told time and time again the responsibility she feels to make it whole and have it ready to help the world be ready for TG. One can argue whether the WT is stil the group best equipped to deal with the situation but you can't question her intentions. In addition she was forced to consolidate her power due to others attempting to make her a puppet. She doesn't think only the AS are correct, she calls them fools and says they must change. In short she has done more to change the culture of the WT during her reign than just about any other Amyrlin in history.

 

As for Rand as has been discussed ad nauseuem she really had no other choice here as Rand purposely antagonized her to get that opposition. It was all part if his plan to get her to gather the forces. She tried to discuss it with him and plan but Rand refused. We as readers know he doesn't have an idea of what to do after he breaks the seals, he is hoping Min finds the answers for him. It is her duty to question him until he has a rational course of action. As for the question posed above I suggest you read the advance materials for AMoL. They shed some light on this topic...

 

- No wait, since the Tower Aes Sedai want me to be Amrylin I will castigate the rebels for... being rebels! (She was a rebel too, but that was two whole hours ago, so that doesn't count.)

 

It seems as if you are missing the point here. As Amyrlin she could not seem to be taking sides and we see her paint a picture to BOTH sides of why they went wrong in the conflict. It was an extremely savvy political move and very much needed in order to not have the new reign begin fractured. Further you act as if she played a role in the initial decision. This was a move to show she played no favorites, nothing more.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Suttree

[Saken]

I think my problem with the whole story is the lack of communication between all of the characters. If they would just sit down and have a meeting, all of the frustration and mistrust could be avoided. Of course, that might ruin the story, I don't know...

 

I realize that Rand's plan was to get the WT to show up and that he knows it will take both Male and Female halves of the power to seal the DO's prison. The point that irritates me is Egwene has to know that whatever Rand decides to do, she has to back him. That is not to say she shouldn't question him but regardless of what he decides, she must go along with it. What other choice does anyone have. Of course, the authors could have put a twist that in Egwene defying Rand while he is attempting to do whatever it is he intends to do, she somehow cues him in to what he really must do. In that case Egwene would be right in defying him and that is probably what will happen, irritating me to no end.

 

I think on a greater scale, most of the women in the story irritate me, perhaps because I am a dude. Most of them think that men have to be guided to do the right thing and that they should be kept on a very short leash with very important matters. However, most of the female characters came back into my good graces as the story progressed except for Elayne and Egwene. My overall feeling is if Rand said, "Egwene the sky is blue." She would say with exasperation, "No it is not Rand, it is green. Rand are you sure you're alright. The taint hasn't made you perceive colors the wrong way, has it? I have some sisters that will talk to you about and maybe even give you some ideas about how to defeat the Dark One. "

 

Perhaps that was a little much, but it's just my opinion.

[Suttree]

I think my problem with the whole story is the lack of communication between all of the characters. If they would just sit down and have a meeting, all of the frustration and mistrust could be avoided. Of course, that might ruin the story, I don't know...

 

I realize that Rand's plan was to get the WT to show up and that he knows it will take both Male and Female halves of the power to seal the DO's prison. The point that irritates me is Egwene has to know that whatever Rand decides to do, she has to back him. That is not to say she shouldn't question him but regardless of what he decides, she must go along with it. What other choice does anyone have. Of course, the authors could have put a twist that in Egwene defying Rand while he is attempting to do whatever it is he intends to do, she somehow cues him in to what he really must do. In that case Egwene would be right in defying him and that is probably what will happen, irritating me to no end.

 

I think on a greater scale, most of the women in the story irritate me, perhaps because I am a dude. Most of them think that men have to be guided to do the right thing and that they should be kept on a very short leash with very important matters. However, most of the female characters came back into my good graces as the story progressed except for Elayne and Egwene. My overall feeling is if Rand said, "Egwene the sky is blue." She would say with exasperation, "No it is not Rand, it is green. Rand are you sure you're alright. The taint hasn't made you perceive colors the wrong way, has it? I have some sisters that will talk to you about and maybe even give you some ideas about how to defeat the Dark One. "

 

Perhaps that was a little much, but it's just my opinion.

 

No I get it and you have some very valid points. I think when Rand lays out a rational course and better explains why things need to happen it will be fine. Again when you get around to reading Ch. 1 it touches on this topic.

 

 

Think you might feel better about the situation. We get to see Egwene has had AS researching the problem and now agrees with Rand that the seals must be broken. She just thinks they have to wait for the right moment.

 

Edited October 16, 2012 by Suttree

[Saken]

OK, getting ready to download it now.