What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Suttree]

actually he does have a plan (his old one) so worst comes to worst he can use that again. But what he did was cleverly lit a fire under the AS to get geared up for TG.

 

Except we have his thoughts that the plan was flawed and he can't do it the same way. Unless Min has figured it out, there is no plan...

 

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

[Kudzu]

Work together? Discuss?

 

Have you people been reading the same series as me?

[Durinax]

actually he does have a plan (his old one) so worst comes to worst he can use that again. But what he did was cleverly lit a fire under the AS to get geared up for TG.

 

Except we have his thoughts that the plan was flawed and he can't do it the same way. Unless Min has figured it out, there is no plan...

 

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

no I was just pointing out that if things where at the absolute worst, and they didnt find the key to fixing it, he could do another temp fix like he did before

[Maleshub]

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

 

Work together? Discuss?

 

Have you people been reading the same series as me?

 

 

 

"The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

 

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then . . . well, then we will discuss my terms."

 

Seems like Rand wants Egwene's help in resealing the bore; and that he wants to discuss the issue with them and work together on it!

Edited March 28, 2012 by Theodril

[Elan Tedronai]

There's only one thing that can seal the bore and it aint saidin or/and saidar

Edited March 28, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[Guest PiotrekS]

About the refusal of Latra Posae's faction to participate in LTT-led effort to seal the DO, i think there is a thing everybody is missing here. The difference in the plans did not concern the fact that LTT's involved touching Saidin to the DO and therfore risked getting it tainted. As it has been rightly pointed out, nobody then could foresee what would happen -neither LTT, nor Latra.

 

Her plan as well involved touching the One Power to the DO - the difference was the time (later), place (not straight at the Bore, but around the Shayol Ghul) and the amount of Power used (much more because of the power of sa'angreals). Therefore, even discounting most obvious reasons why it was useless (ter'angreals were lost and there was no time left), the plan would probably have led to equally bad or even worse effects.

 

There is no way to make a barrier with the One Power that the DO wouldn't touch - a barrier must come in contact with the person it is supposed to work against, right? Otherwise it is no barrier.

 

I'm not sure I get your meaning here? Why would the barrier have needed to touch the DO? The only reason LTT's version did is because they needed to touch the bore. LTP wanted to erect a barrier around the bore but was not going to touch it.

 

Wasn't the barrier supposed to stop the DO should he break out through the bore? If so, he would touch it trying to get through it and the effect would be the same as in case of LTT's plan. If not, then what was to be the point of the barrier?

 

He would only touch the barrier if he broke free inside where it had been erected. As long as there wasn't a connection at the exact time that they were actually doing the original weaving it would have been fine.

 

I wan't to make clear I don't think this is a great plan either and while it presents it's own set of problems it mosty certainly wouldn't have led to both Saidar and Saidin being tainted.

 

I think the whole point of rasing the barrier was to isolate the area around Shayol Ghul, where the DO was likely to break free.. Tt was to be created in order to stop the DO and therefore come into contact with him.

 

Your second point is good though - so the problem was that they were actually channeling when the DO touched the weave - they were connected to the Source, so by touching their weave the DO could influence the Source itself...It would seem therefore the solution to the problem would lie in using something like the standing flows to seal the DO...

There's only one thing that can seal the bore and it aint saidin or/and saidar

 

Go on if you please

[Elan Tedronai]

The pattern itself. I thought that would have been clear by now

[Datakim]

sigh,

 

latra's plan was simple

 

create a barrier to stop do influence, reduce his hemorrhaging of the bore, retake the lands held by the shadow and most important of all

 

give the light respite to come up with a real full proof plan of sealing the bore.

 

 

LTT screwedup by assuming humans could fix the bore. That shit is only done by the pattern. Not LTT, not latra and certainly not the one power

 

LPD's idea was to create a barrier around Shayol Ghul itself, while leaving the bore untouched and open inside the barrier, and then use the power of the Choedan Kal to destroy the shadows forces (who at this point massively outnumbered the good guys). This would have given the light more time to research the matter aand try to find out how the bore could be sealed safely. LTT only went ahead with his plan at the end, when the Light was literally moments away from total defeat. It is likely that LTT would have spent more time on research, but as the military leader he could see that there was little hope of ordinary victory and something else would have to be done.

 

LTT apparently was opposed to LPD's plan because it did not touch the bore. Apparently, so long as the bore was open, the DO could actually make it bigger. It had grown since it was first made and was continuing to grow. And LTT (and his allies) felt that even if LPD's barrier could block the DO's touch while he could just barely reach through, the fact that the bore was still growing meant that the risk of the DO actually being able to break free fully would increase every day. And the DO fully released would have torn LPD's barrier apart with ease (and then promptly destroyed the world). This is all in the "Strike" short story. Based on the books, we can also deduce that LTT felt that the Choedan Kal were too dangerous to be used for combat purposes too, and using them in the war against the shadow could lead to destruction (even if only accidentally). It is telling that Rand at his most tainted and evil used the CK constantly, while Rand at his most enlightened destroyed the CK.

 

Both their plans had major problems. LTT's was rushed, while LPD's plan was basically not a "real" plan but merely a plan to give time to make a better "hypothetical" plan. Ofcourse at the end, the Access Keys were lost so LPD's plan stopped being an option. The fact that she still at that point opposed LTT means that either she was incredibly stupid, or more likely, LTT's own ta'veren nature influenced her to continue opposing him so that Saidar would be spared the taint.

[Suttree]

Both their plans had major problems. LTT's was rushed...

 

How so? It had been in the works for quite some time. What was rushed about? The plan was flawed, Rand has admitted as much. LPD was correct that the plan was too dangerous even if she didn't pinpoint the exact reason.

 

Also when you say the Shadow was "moments" away from victory that isn't entirely true. First the Shadow's offensives would have to break through which they hadn't and at that point it says the light would have lost "perhaps" in "months". The situation was dire, but moments away is a bit much. I do like your idea about her being influenced by his ta'veren nature. That makes a good deal of sense.

[Tyzack]

The pattern itself. I thought that would have been clear by now

 

Wheels.

[Thrasymachus]

Was LTT a Ta'veren when he sealed the Bore and during the War of Power? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that for sure, but it has been a long while since I've read the Strike at Shayol Ghul. Just because Rand is ta'veren doesn't meant Lews Therin was, though it doesn't mean he wasn't either. I just don't recall.

[MasterAblar]

Also when you say the Shadow was "moments" away from victory that isn't entirely true. First the Shadow's offensives would have to break through which they hadn't and at that point it says the light would have lost "perhaps" in "months". The situation was dire, but moments away is a bit much. I do like your idea about her being influenced by his ta'veren nature. That makes a good deal of sense.

 

I think it's likely that the pattern was acting in some way. Afterall, Sammael just happened to attack the area where the access keys were kept, even though he no idea they were there.

[Kahsm]

Rand leads Egwene to believe she, and the Aes Sedai, do have a role... since he specifically says he needs them.

 

But yes, there is no actual role because we, as the reader, know there's no actual plan. He's got a hunch that the seals need to be broken, and then it's pretty much blank from there.

 

So why didn't he explain it to Egwene? Likely because he has nothing to explain to her. But instead of telling her that, and maybe using the Tower to help fill in those holes (instead of... you know... Min...). He decided to be all cryptic and vague.

 

I suppose I should reserve ultimate judgement until I see Rand's motivations unfold completely, but any problems this causes from Egwene's side are completely Rand's doing.

 

The DR/CotL is not infallible, we know he can screw up, and that he has in the past. Egwene has zero reason to trust him blindly, and more than one reason not to trust him at all, and I don't think he expects or wants her too. Likely, she's dancing to his tune just as he wants, for whatever reason, and therefore she can't be blamed for it.

 

And don't bring up that Nynaeve BS about, "but Nynaeve told her he was cool!" Egwene's dismissal of that as potential ta'veren influence is completely justified.

[Manscher]

But the thing is, Ta'veren influence is the will of the wheel, so how can Aes Sedai dismiss it? Just because it does not agree with their belief? Ta'veren does not work for your benefit, it works for the wheel. So using that as an excuse to dimiss Nynaeves opinion seems rather silly to be.

[XXX]

But the thing is, Ta'veren influence is the will of the wheel, so how can Aes Sedai dismiss it? Just because it does not agree with their belief? Ta'veren does not work for your benefit, it works for the wheel. So using that as an excuse to dimiss Nynaeves opinion seems rather silly to be.

 

Not sure about that..Rand seems to be able to twist the pattern to his will or almost do so such as his attempt with Tuon or when he was touching the TP and everything was wrapping around him.So crazy things are certainly happening around him.

[XXX]

Rand leads Egwene to believe she, and the Aes Sedai, do have a role... since he specifically says he needs them.

 

But yes, there is no actual role because we, as the reader, know there's no actual plan. He's got a hunch that the seals need to be broken, and then it's pretty much blank from there.

 

So why didn't he explain it to Egwene? Likely because he has nothing to explain to her. But instead of telling her that, and maybe using the Tower to help fill in those holes (instead of... you know... Min...). He decided to be all cryptic and vague.

 

 

Maybe because the AS have shown themselves so incompetent that he does not need their help to reseal the bore?

 

And from Rand's PoV at the end of ToM, he pretty much says that there is nothing to discuss about breaking the seals.He is going to do it anyway. Egwene thinks this is a discussion but it is not, atleast on the seals part.

[Suttree]

And from Rand's PoV at the end of ToM, he pretty much says that there is nothing to discuss about breaking the seals.He is going to do it anyway. Egwene thinks this is a discussion but it is not, atleast on the seals part.

 

Sorry xxx, but you have to provide quotes. We have all seen you twist your interpretations far too many times when stating how something went in the text. Once again here is one provided earlier that would seem to counter your claim.

 

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

As for the one you refer to at the end of ToM he says he is goind to do it "regardless of what Egwene said" which would strongly imply they are going to dicuss it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Suttree

[Tyzack]

No but what you did say is "all have played their roles" as if their job is done. We know this to not be the case. At some point you need to set your peevish fantasies aside. Far better for Rand to be open about what he is doing and discuss his course of action so everyone is on the same page. Yes, we know...Eg might not be directly involved with fixing the prison. That changes nothing.

 

Why should Rand discuss his plans on breaking the seals and resealing the DO with Egwene if she is not going to play any role in the process? To massage her ego? Or because she is the "watcher of the seals"?

 

At FOM he will tell everyone not just Egwene what to do in the meantime when he is resealing the DO.

 

My problem with that whole sceen wasn't really Rand's arrogance - he legitimitely doesn't know what to do. Yes, he probably should have done some brainstorming/ideating/whiteboarding/whatever, but not all leaders are infailable.

 

What I didn't like about it was Egwenes lack of a grasp on the bigger picture, she brought up two points in the meeting, obstensively about re-sealing/undoing the bore, what were they?

 

1.) Some of rand's barely-controller followers bonded aes sedai who went on a foolish trip to try and control them. This event happened 4 books ago and has since widely been established as a bad idea; both sides were at fault, but there are more important things to worry about.

 

2.) Is Rand insane? What effect is the taint having? Well, that's great, but the taint was also removed back in book 8, and the news had to have spread to the Tower, otherwise their vaunted network of informants is, um, useless.

 

Alot of people give rand a hard time for his side of the conversation, by Egwene could have helped out by saying "Hey, Rand, it's great to see you. I hear a lot of bad things are going down in the world right now, so why don't we, as the two most powerful people, work together to get everyone on the same page for TG?"

[Suttree]

2.) Is Rand insane? What effect is the taint having? Well, that's great, but the taint was also removed back in book 8, and the news had to have spread to the Tower, otherwise their vaunted network of informants is, um, useless.

 

The cleansing happened in 9. As has been stated in the books the news spreading and people actually believing it are two very different things.

 

 

Not much different from what his own people did in gentling men, truth be told. “Saidin is cleansed now,” he said to her. “This practice must stop.”

She pursed her lips, regarding him. “Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”

“It is true,” he said firmly.

“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

They hated male channelers. yet, in following Rand, they served one. Did they not see the contradiction? How could he convince them that there was no longer reason to murder men who could touch the One Power?

 

As for Rand himself, yes the taint is removed but that doesn't fix the pre-existing damage. His actions until shortly before arriving at the WT reflect this and that is what Egwene is going off at the time. From Rand's own pov...

 

Light! he thought. I’m losing control. Half the time, I don’t know which voice is mine and which is his. This was supposed to get better when I cleansed saidin! I was supposed to be safe. . . .

[Azrayne]

Sadly people don't go from hating and fearing a certain group to accepting them overnight, the legitimacy of that hate and fear is pretty irrelevant. Having everybody take his word that Saidin is clean would be more than a tad unrealistic.

[muddasssir]

I mean what has LTT or Lpd has got to do with hating Egwene? since, we are on it I am not going to bother with starting another post. What nobody stops to think is that maybe things had to happen like that. In that meeting with borderlanders I thinl BS answered these questions when Tenobia mentioned that how difficult it was for them to find him. I mean in that very scene Rand tells them that only few days ago he would not have known the answer. if someone can make the exact quote that will be very kind. Point I am trying to make here i that most repeated line in the series is "Whwwl weaves as wheel wills". Again Perrin says it to Galad, "You were here apparently because I need you". What the stupid woman should realize that if the wheel wanted someone to oppose Rand. Elaida would have been much better choice. She is there so that she can see past the Dragon Reborn and see Rand. the sheepherder that she can trust but no she has to be the bloody white tower with light shining out of her every mention-able and unmentionable orifice. I have written a very long post somewhere saying that we hate her because she is not very well written. I still stand by my opinion.

[Suttree]

She is there so that she can see past the Dragon Reborn and see Rand. the sheepherder that she can trust but no she has to be the bloody white tower with light shining out of her every mention-able and unmentionable orifice.

 

Errmm that is exactly what she did.

 

ToM

Light, she thought. I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

[Datakim]

How so? It had been in the works for quite some time. What was rushed about? The plan was flawed, Rand has admitted as much. LPD was correct that the plan was too dangerous even if she didn't pinpoint the exact reason.

 

You are right and "rushed" was perhaps not the best word. The point I was trying to make was that it was a plan that had not been sufficiently researched and which carried significant risks (even beyond the unexpected taint). I would presume that if the light had not been under such strain timewise, LTT might well have scrapped that plan and came up with a totally new one which did not carry a chance of ripping the bore completely open and releasing the DO.

 

Also when you say the Shadow was "moments" away from victory that isn't entirely true. First the Shadow's offensives would have to break through which they hadn't and at that point it says the light would have lost "perhaps" in "months". The situation was dire, but moments away is a bit much. I do like your idea about her being influenced by his ta'veren nature. That makes a good deal of sense.

 

Given how long it had been since the bore was opened, I would say "months" are moments. Especially when the text makes it pretty clear that the situation is desperate and that LTT's forces were on the verge of defeat. It says that Sammael, Demandred and Bel'al are all attacking on three separate fronts, and LTT is barely holding back. And that the Light has not managed to force the shadow back at all in over two years. In other words, the situation at that point was hopeless. With Trollocs breeding faster, the DO himself openly attacking via bubbles of evil while the bore is constantly getting larger, with no hope of regaining LPD's Access Keys and the CK statues themselves about to fall to Sammael. At that point, the situation would have been: Do we try something that might save us but might also kill us, OR do we not try it which will definitely kill us. For LPD to still oppose LTT at that point is just plain stupid in my view (from her POV). I mean what would it have mattered anymore if LTT fails and the bore is ripped open. Given the situation, that was what was going to happen ANYWAY, if they did not try his plan. Thats why I think ta'veren had to have been involved, since otherwise LPD would have been so incredibly stupid as to choose certain death over a mere possible death.

 

Oh, and I don't think we know with absolute certainty that LTT was ta'veren, but it seems highly likely given his position and status. We do also get mentions from the LTT in Rand's head that he was ta'veren. I think it was likely anyway.

[Datakim]

But the thing is, Ta'veren influence is the will of the wheel, so how can Aes Sedai dismiss it? Just because it does not agree with their belief? Ta'veren does not work for your benefit, it works for the wheel. So using that as an excuse to dimiss Nynaeves opinion seems rather silly to be.

 

Not sure about that..Rand seems to be able to twist the pattern to his will or almost do so such as his attempt with Tuon or when he was touching the TP and everything was wrapping around him.So crazy things are certainly happening around him.

 

That does not explain the problem away. Even we as readers don't know for certain if Rand can control his ta'veren. He did imply it after channeling True Power and threatening to use it to cause Cadsuane a heart attack. However, the general belief in the world has always been that ta'veren does the will of the pattern. Cadsuane himself thinks that Rand cannot bend the pattern to her will, but panics and does not take the chance. Could Rand have actually done it? I don't know. Rand may have been bluffing or just plain arrogantly wrong. Its possible he was even planning on using True Power against her (avoiding her ter'angreal) while using ta'veren as an excuse to explain it to others who would have seen her die without sensing Rand channeling saidin.

 

The point is moot however, since even if Rand has such control now, Egwene is unaware of it. Everything she and the Aes Sedai know about how ta'veren works states that it is a corrective mechanism of the PATTERN, and that any action taken by ta'veren effect would therefore be directed at making the pattern stronger and correcting errors and problems. Errors and problems that the Dark One is causing. In that sense, one might say that knowingly opposing known ta'veren effects is tantamount to opposing the will of the pattern/Creator, and indirectly helping the Dark One weaken the pattern and reality.

 

Hmm. Could the reason Rand is so obsessed with breaking the seals despite having no plan have something to do with ta'veren? We do know that he can be affected by his own ta'veren effect (its happened a few times in the series), so maybe the new "enlightened" Rand now somehow feels ta'veren compelling him to break the seals, and has chosen to just do it and put his faith into the pattern/Creator, even if he does not fully know what he should do afterwards.

[MasterAblar]

Was LTT a Ta'veren when he sealed the Bore and during the War of Power? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that for sure, but it has been a long while since I've read the Strike at Shayol Ghul. Just because Rand is ta'veren doesn't meant Lews Therin was, though it doesn't mean he wasn't either. I just don't recall.

 

I don't know, but I think it's there's a good posibility that he was. Not only was he pretty much the most important person of the age, but he was supposedly very lucky.

 

I suppose I should reserve ultimate judgement until I see Rand's motivations unfold completely, but any problems this causes from Egwene's side are completely Rand's doing.

 

In part yes, but Egwene is responsible for the problems her actions cause.

 

Egwene has zero reason to trust him blindly, and more than one reason not to trust him at all, and I don't think he expects or wants her too.

 

And why not give him the benefit of the doubt? It's not like he's been an utter failure at his job so far

 

Likely, she's dancing to his tune just as he wants, for whatever reason, and therefore she can't be blamed for it.

 

So because Rand expects her to act in a certain manner, she can't be blammed if that manner of acting is foolish? To me it just means he knows her well. Whether he's right in making her dance to his tune is what has yet to be determined.

 

And don't bring up that Nynaeve BS about, "but Nynaeve told her he was cool!" Egwene's dismissal of that as potential ta'veren influence is completely justified.

 

Potential being the keyword here. Do you think dismissing something entirely just because there's a possibility that it was caused by his taveren influence is a very smart move by Egwene.

 

As for the one you refer to at the end of ToM he says he is goind to do it "regardless of what Egwene said" which would strongly imply they are going to dicuss it.

 

I think Rand will definitely try to get Egwene on his side, but if she remains opposed he'll likely go ahead without her.

 

The point is moot however, since even if Rand has such control now, Egwene is unaware of it.

 

Actually Rand tried to use his taveren influence on her to try and learn where the rebel Aes Sedai were, and it appeared very much like he was controlling it, at least from Egwene's POV.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Master Ablar