Callandor, Lanfear, The Great Lord and other theories.

[Owayn The Traveller]

And he is no better reborn. Wasn't reborn with a dress sense now was he? Would ya look at the state of him in lord of chaos. He's wearing a puffy pirate shirt and skinny jeans!

 

Mister high and mighty coming down from the mountain top making the apples grow. La de da look at me all zen and Buddha like and all lolly pops and rainbows. And the sun even shines outta his arse.

 

Smug git.

 

His friends are as bad. That head band wearing, knot tying, axe throwing, slow witted, scroll reading, too big for his horse, take down those banners, evil eyed, two bit son of a gun, running around in the snow jackdaw! Perrin Goldensquats Abarya

 

And the other one. Mister Matrim bloody Cauthon. That dice throwing, scarf wearing, tower heist planning, dumb lucked, I'm so cool in my hat, horse dealing, pink clothing wearer, toe tappin dancer, i know the old tongue, dagger caressing, suspicious minded, Aes Sedai spanking, ponce of the ravens that can't see any 3D films.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Thanks, Owayn. I needed a good laugh.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Much obliged.

I liked Drekka post as well. Short concise and witty. However it took a Perrin age to get the shoelace joke.

 

What was this thread about again?

 

Ah heck the sooner college starts back up and I can read all that lovely Irish history circa 1450-1710 is the sooner I can get some sleep again.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Jeez. Some folks just can't handle the existence of threads where people might hold Unapproved Views . Suttree, Drekka, Owayn, Bob, I don't think you folks appreciate just how off-putting it is to casual users like me for you to come in and make several posts mocking us. That doesn't just give me a low opinion of you. That hurts my interest in using these forums at all. I left this site for months because of pretty much the exact same thing last year--even the same people in some cases, ahem, Suttree. It's almost harassment. Maybe the moderators ought to decide if that's the kind of atmosphere they want to have on a board like this one. Is this a place for everyone? Or is it a place for the popular kids and their prevailing opinions? Luckers, I'm looking at you to set a good example here...

 

The fact of the matter is that we don't really know much about who the real LTT was. There's plenty of room for speculation. That's one of the things I like about WoT: RJ left us some room to interpret the characters ourselves. Maybe we're supposed to automatically conclude, for instance, that Lews Therin Telamon was the Bestest Dude Ever, a real red-blooded male who could do no wrong, like some folks are saying. And maybe we're supposed to automatically conclude that Mierin Eronaile was just some dumb loser who happened to be one of the best channelers alive. Maybe those are the "right answers" that RJ intended for us. But he never said that himself, and Brandon hasn't come out and told us either, so why are some folks so unhappy about a fan community where the characters are complex enough for different people to see them in a different light? Huh? It makes no sense.

[UncleButcher1980]

I've seen you give as good as you get, so I don't see the need to play the victim.

[Luckers]

From my perspective both sides have stepped over the line in this conversation, and I want everyone back across those lines right now.

 

Or, put another way, the next aggressive, condescending or personally dismissive comment from anyone will see this thread locked, and more than probably a temp ban for the person who said it.

 

Alright? Alright.

 

*nods to himself, and wanders off*

[Owayn The Traveller]

It was only meant to be a bit of light hearted fun. I sorry if I caused offence.

[Suttree]

Apologies to anyone who took offense, I truly look forward to a continued debate. Actually very interested in this topic and have often asked for textual evidence as to how this viewpoint is shaped. I truly would like to study/discuss it further if anyone would be so kind as to provide it.

[lord of madness]

The latter! I hate that smug Lews Therin and I can't wait, CANT WAIT! For him to get his come up ens! Two of the Saharows generals don't hate him for nothing. There's no smoke without fire. Him with his singing and his drawing and his pretty boy looks. Makes me sick it does.

Nothing but a big show off with a fathead.

 

And now hes all like "Eeew look at me with my red hair and special crying power! Arent I perfect?"

 

The churl. Cant tie his own shoelaces NOW can he?

 

 

And he is no better reborn. Wasn't reborn with a dress sense now was he? Would ya look at the state of him in lord of chaos. He's wearing a puffy pirate shirt and skinny jeans!

 

Mister high and mighty coming down from the mountain top making the apples grow. La de da look at me all zen and Buddha like and all lolly pops and rainbows. And the sun even shines outta his arse.

 

Smug git.

 

His friends are as bad. That head band wearing, knot tying, axe throwing, slow witted, scroll reading, too big for his horse, take down those banners, evil eyed, two bit son of a gun, running around in the snow jackdaw! Perrin Goldensquats Abarya

 

And the other one. Mister Matrim bloody Cauthon. That dice throwing, scarf wearing, tower heist planning, dumb lucked, I'm so cool in my hat, horse dealing, pink clothing wearer, toe tappin dancer, i know the old tongue, dagger caressing, suspicious minded, Aes Sedai spanking, ponce of the ravens that can't see any 3D films.

 

thanks I needed a good laugh

 

hope that padin fain is used in closeing the bore since his power does not really like the DO that much

[Suttree]

And maybe we're supposed to automatically conclude that Mierin Eronaile was just some dumb loser who happened to be one of the best channelers alive. Maybe those are the "right answers" that RJ intended for us.

 

For the record has anyone mentioned anything even close to this concerning Lanfear? What has been said is in addition to her strength in the OP she was egotistical, selfish and power hungry. She demanded a right to any thing she wanted, all the more so if it had been denied her. All of those things are clearly supported through the text, BWB and author quotes(so yes RJ has told us his thoughts on who Lanfear is as a person). They also provide a strong answer to the question of why she had not earned a third name.

 

If others believe it was not that and some sort of political conspiracy designed to hold her back from the rightful achievements she had earned, all I ask is that they provide support for their interpretation. It is very fair to counter and ask how they have come to reach that conclusion. It is done every day in every other topic here on DM.

[Randommer]

I don't doubt the quote; I'm just saying that it's odd. Rand definitely did have a memory in TSR of being with her when they were both young,

 

Yeah I recall a quote to that effect, would be interested to read what it actually says. Any idea what chapter of TSR it is in?

Actually it was TFoH, Chapter 6: "He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power."

 

But even from other quotes in that chapter, I've concluded that the timing might just be bonkers. Either that, or they really were together for hundreds of years. Which...yeah. Whoa.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

 

We never see The Lews Therin who won his third name. The foremost philosopher of his Age ( which is why Elan Morin Tedronai hates him so. ) The sportsman, who along with Duram Laddel Cham aka Bel'al, reinvented the sport of fencing. The Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn. The foremost Singer. The foremost Channeler. The man who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and commanded the Nine Rods of Dominion.

 

 

It was called Swords and LTT and Bel'al taught people how to play it to kill. Reinvented fencing / taught people to kill.

 

That's when Rand confronts Bel'al in the stone. In TSR we get a tiny perspective on LTT through Churin(sp?) when Rand is in getting his two dragons. He reminisces about how there was a time when no one killed, there were no soldiers and also says he'd rather have served LTT than Lanfear.

 

Not huge points I'm making here by any means I just thought I'd share a little.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

LTT was alive for hundreds of years. If I live til 60 spending20 years married and prior to that spent 2 years going out with a different girl I'd look back at two years as being a short time. Now if I lived till 600 and spent 20 married and 2 with another girl I'd call the 20 short and the 2 minuscule.

 

LTT could have gone out with Lanfear for longer than the average marriage in the uk lasts for and still looked at it as a short time. This appears to have been entirely overlooked.

 

Another thing, they all lived ten times longer than those who could not channell, they were served by non channeling humans, probably outliving five or six of them each.... Do you not see how society was completely different in the AOL, these people were far more like deities or gods than 'current' a.s.

 

LTT was arrogant and full of self importance, backed up in no small part by the fact that of all the god like a.s he was top dog. I'm not saying he wasnt a cool guy and blah blah blah but he has attributes to his personality which in the aol were non issues yet today, so to speak, would cause serious problems in almost all walks of life. The worlds, ages if you will, we're different. Look at the reaction of the forsaken to the noobies when they discover new tricks with the power, albeit they're forsaken but I think this is representative of a.s rather than forsaken. Their arrogance would make rands arrogance now look like total humility. This is all relative, however, as they were all bloody arrogant so it's not like anyone ever said 'oh that LTT is just too arrogant to hang around with' cause they wouldn't have noticed.

[Leyrann]

Too lazy to read everything if this is said already, but with help of his "My rule is secure", RJ saying we could figure out who he was after Winter's Heart (maybe before), and BS saying he did not appear in the first 11 books, and later that he did not appear in ToM, we can almost be sure he is Demandred. The man in Seanchan was not mentioned in or before Winter's Heart, and Jarid Sarand appeared in FoH and LoC.

[WhiskyJack]

This thread...... Strong doesn't mean "better". Lanfear clearly was an underachiever. She probably did nothing remarkable in her life. Few of the forsaken were like her.

 

Also, people stop over-thinking.

[WhiskyJack]

Too lazy to read everything if this is said already, but with help of his "My rule is secure", RJ saying we could figure out who he was after Winter's Heart (maybe before), and BS saying he did not appear in the first 11 books, and later that he did not appear in ToM, we can almost be sure he is Demandred. The man in Seanchan was not mentioned in or before Winter's Heart, and Jarid Sarand appeared in FoH and LoC.

 

 

RJ(BS) said we have not yet seen Demandred's alter ego on-screen. Big difference.

[Bob T Dwarf]

This thread...... Strong doesn't mean "better". Lanfear clearly was an underachiever. She probably did nothing remarkable in her life. Few of the forsaken were like her.

 

Also, people stop over-thinking.

 

Lanfear didn't really have the chance to be anything but an underachiever. She was stronger and more adept with the power than almost anybody else, but the "Laws of the Circle" ( for lack of a better term ), dictated that for most of the important work that was being performed with the One Power, the size of the Circle needed meant a man had to lead. And, thus, he got the notoriety for whatever was achieved.

 

What attracted her to the "True Power" was it was usable equally by either sex and it contained no rules of precedence about who got to lead what size Circle. She would no longer have been forced to take a backseat to anyone at ( nearly ) any time.

 

The problem was that True Power didn't appeal to her for reasons of equality but because it fed her unhealthy need for recognition and fame. It allowed her to impose her will on others. To order and direct rather than collaborate. It was those factors that made it so attractive to her and made her so ripe for embracing the Dark.

 

LTT, may have been arrogant, possibly short-tempered, or dismissive, probably intimidating. But, he almost certainly also possessed the ability to seek consensus, act cooperatively, listen carefully, and make others feel important because of the degree to which he succeeded within his society. We never see LTT at anything but his worst, yet he remains a sympathetic character. Even though we never actually see it, we are convinced there is something good and wholesome at his core.

 

There is no evidence that Asmodean was anything but a musical prodigy of great talent. His lack of success stemmed from his unwillingness to share the spotlight with anyone else. To jealously dismiss the talents of everyone but himself. Thus his own character flaws are what led him to the Dark and made him such a slimy weasel, and led to his lack of success within the society into which he was born. We primarily see Asmodean at his best, yet he is never a sympathetic character. There is nothing good or wholesome at his core. He even recognizes it, as demonstrated by his last mental monologue as he walked to that anonymous door within the Caemlyn Palace.

[bbarrett90]

Lets see now... yes back to what I was saying, it doesn't matter if it only takes one loss for the game to be over, the idea that one side has never lost a single game for enumerable times is just plain ridiculous. Again, unless it is part of The Great Lords nature to always lose in the end... he should have won long ago. he has all these ages of experience and memories and knowledge an power but he can't win a single time?

 

In my understanding, the DO has won, as evidenced by when Rand uses the portal stone and experiences countless other lives, "I have won again, Lews Therin." Because of this, I believe that the Creator essentially has an infinite amount of times to learn how to "win." The DO may have won in other worlds, but, and i believe it was stated in one of the books, that as long as there is one timeline in which the DO remains in prison, he remains in prison in all timelines. So really, the DO can never win because trial and error is greater than evil. As long as Rand gets it right in one timeline, the pattern is preserved. I like to think it's quite similar to the multiverse theory that many scientists are beginning to accept nowadays.

[Skeeve the Great]

In my understanding, the DO has won, as evidenced by when Rand uses the portal stone and experiences countless other lives, "I have won again, Lews Therin." Because of this, I believe that the Creator essentially has an infinite amount of times to learn how to "win." The DO may have won in other worlds, but, and i believe it was stated in one of the books, that as long as there is one timeline in which the DO remains in prison, he remains in prison in all timelines. So really, the DO can never win because trial and error is greater than evil. As long as Rand gets it right in one timeline, the pattern is preserved. I like to think it's quite similar to the multiverse theory that many scientists are beginning to accept nowadays.

 

In the same place Verin was saying that if DO is free in one world, he is free in all worlds.

[Kudaran Dragon Blooded]

Alll of these ideas are very good, I could never have come up with them myself.

 

I just have one comment on teh Dark One needing balefire to unravel the pattern... I remember in one of the books that both sides in the War of Shadow just stopped using it to not unravel the pattern.

It was too dangerous. The Dark One probably wouldn't have given that order if he wanted to use it to unravel the pattern.

[Jak o' the Shadows]

B. Callandor, 2 women and 1 man.

 

 

There is also speculation that Moraine may have a part to play here...

[Random Man]

Alll of these ideas are very good, I could never have come up with them myself.

 

I just have one comment on teh Dark One needing balefire to unravel the pattern... I remember in one of the books that both sides in the War of Shadow just stopped using it to not unravel the pattern.

It was too dangerous. The Dark One probably wouldn't have given that order if he wanted to use it to unravel the pattern.

 

I could see the Dark One not wanting to scare off his minions; Moridin did say in TGS that the vast majority of the Shadow's side were fools led to believe there would be anything left to rule after the Dark One wins. I could imagine it would not help his cause for his side to see what was in danger of happening and say, "UM YEAH...KEEP DOING THAT." Lots of his followers would probably wisen up quickly at a point where he still needed assistance to escape his prison.

 

Also, nothing says he told them to stop; I would speculate seeing how well the War of Power was going for him, the Dark One just remained silent on the matter and led his followers to believe, in the interest of their own self-preservation, it was a good idea to stop using balefire.

 

I don't necessarily think that balefire is needed by the Dark One but it could be a way to accomplish his objective.

[Simpleman2012]

1. Trollocs burst out from all lands through the Olger gateways that were not closed. All nations were fully engaged fighting with the massed trollocs, inclding Seanchan held lands.

 

2. Rand's own combined legion facing the last battle, has no reserves. Just as the battle begins, the border region troops in the lines turn sideways and destroy the other combined forces, while the facing trollocs enmassed keeps still. Demandred's work, for he had made use of elements in the borderland troops to break oaths and turn against each other.

 

As the struggle was amongst massed troops, Rand and the other channelers could not do anything for fear of harming their own people. He and other commanders on the high ground rushed down to stop them physically.

 

Pada Fain appears and rushed up behind him, and with his swirling cloudy miasma, it swept up and killed the Rand forces. Fain plunged at Rand with the poison knife, but was speared by Rand's maidens. However, the knife sliced Rand's eyes, and blinded him.

 

As the miasma receded, the trollocs rushed forth to destroy whatever that remained of the dragon forces. Nynerve draged Rand away upslope and hid amongst the trees, while the trollocs were busy hauling the remaining dragonforces into cookpots.

 

3. Moridin then appeared before Rand, pitying him, and tells him - " You never had a chance. The Pattern has to be destroyed, and is what the Dark One wants. I am tired of humanity, rebirths and the constant struggle, thus I support the end of the Pattern.

 

The Forsaken, too, know of the end. Thus their corrupted ways and high living, without a care for humanity, as all life will end once the pattern is destroyed.

 

Lanfear's research team thought they had found a new form of energy when they drilled the bore during the Age of Legends. It certainly is true power, for what they had found was a BLACK HOLE source. The energy is awesome, for black holes are suns that had collapsed, sucking everything in, including light. Nothing escapes a dark hole, which was where BALEFIRE energy came from.

 

Just as the Creator creates, the Dark One destroys. A natural balance. When the seal breaks in a few hours time, everything will be sucked into that hole, even the Pattern."

 

He then walked away, for believing that Rand was defeated.

 

4. Rand sought Nynerve's help using a gateway to get to the Seanchan palace for troops, but Tuon had none avaliable for all were fighting trollocs. There he reunites with Moraine, who knew from the aelfin on how to defeat the Dark One with her price being strung up in the Ghenji Tower, and Mat, whom were abducted by Tuon. He kneels before Tuon, and seeks for a raken to fly him and Moraine to the BORE. Tuon gaved her blessing.

 

Reaching there, Moraine and Rand combined - Saidin and Saidar, to create Balefire, but reversing the energy flow, at the bore just as the last seal broke. By reversing the flows, it destroys the black hole that could not accept reversed flows - positive energy to negative, destructing the system that the black hole operates upon.

[dileeph]

just plain spooked that Dollhouse says "Great Lord" in all her posts.

[Byzantine279]

Admitting to being a darkfriend in front of everyone? Bold. Hand over a medal, then procede with the execution.