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Callandor, Lanfear, The Great Lord and other theories.


Dollhouse
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A. Where has Demandred really been all this time?

 

B. Callandor, 2 women and 1 man.

 

C. Cyndane, Mierin's fate, where she is now and her bargain.

 

D. The truth about the Great Lord, his prison and the Creator.

 

E. Balefire, the only reason

 

F. Padan Fain and his hate.

 

G. His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul

 

 

 

A.

Where has Demandred really been all this time?

 

Every theory I have read all say that Demandred is/was with the Borderlanders... but that thing is just far to simple. I mean we have seen Sammael think that what was happening in the Borderlanders was something done by Demandred... so it would just be to obvious. Him wearing a furrbrimmed coat also would suggest hat he was in the borderlanders... but... no.

 

Jordan mentioned that we hadn't seen Demandred's disguise yet... and I think it is obvious why. Demandred was NEVER on the mainland. With almost all the other chosen running around there they would just disrupt his chances of gaining control of a giant army.

 

So Demandred's location is now obvious. He was and IS in Seanchan. Seanchan was said to suddenly have broken out in civil war and a man had taken the throne. In other words, Demandred is coming to Tarmon Gaidon with the rest of the Seanchan forces. (his furrbrimmed coat? Don't forget that when the mainland was suffering under the eternal heat, Seanchan was suffering a sudden eternal winter)

 

 

 

B.

Callandor, 2 women and 1 man.

 

Rand wants to use Nyanave and maybe Avendia when using Callandor but Nyanave already has a large role to play in the final book. So who will control Rand with Callandor? One of them has been an obvious choice ever since she first appeared... Alivia. But who is the other one and why would this use of Callandor lead to the seeming death of Rand?

 

Cyndane is the answer. My theory is that it will be Cyndane and Alivia that will control Rand. Cyndane however loves Lews and wants to usurp the Great Lord... so instead of doing what she should will do her own thing which will force Rand to make Alivia kill Cyndane and/or himself.

 

 

 

C.

Cyndane, Mierin's fate, where she is now and her bargain.

 

Lews/Rand claimed that the only thing Mierin ever loved was power but as was revealed when "Lews finally became one with Rand", it turns out that Lews was everything that Demandred and Sammael said. he was haughty, obnoxious and a huge jerk. That he also just happened to be brilliant doesn't excuse anything.

 

We know that Lews decided to marry Ilyena. We know that Lews and Mierin were an item and that somewhere down the line he decided to break up with her. His reason being that she was ambitious? So Mierin causes the opening of the bore and is afterwards quite possibly facing some sever punishment such as stilling. (Not saying this was the only reason but It certainly should have been a factor)

 

Lews never understood women, he just thought of them as 'pretty'. So yeah, I think that he is wrong. I believe that Mierin really do/did love him for real. Of course such love would quickly grow selfish like any other so...

 

Now Lanfear has been turned into Cyndane. When she first appeared Jordan seemed to make a point of calling her "girl" and "young". Sanderson did not when he showed her to Rand, but Sanderson reason for not doing this might be because Rand himself is still fairly young an would not seen her as a girl but a young woman.

 

Mierin's wish? I believe her name itself is not only a great joke as far as Moridin is concerned, I think it it relates to her wish. Without even having to give it any great thought I believe we can easily determine at least two of Mierin's wishes/things she asked of the Finn.

 

1. That Lews/Rand would belong to her again.

2. One more/last chance!! (possibly begging)

3. ???profit???

 

the first wish would of course go nicely in hand with her helping wield Callandor... and the second wish would be typical of the Finn... fulfilling a wish that wasn't a wish in the nastiest way possible.

 

 

D.

The truth about the Great Lord, his prison and the Creator.

 

The Great Lord is God. A being of pure energy exactly equal in power to that of the creator. The Great Lord himself would BE the Creator yet at the same time not. The "Creator" would be/is Saidar+Saidin. Saidar+Saidin however has no will since humans and every other living creature would have free will. As a direct opposite of "Saitan" (the Great Lord) who did have a will.

 

The Great Lord himself can never ever touch the pattern directly. Using his own existence against the pattern would neutralize both as they are equal in power. Therefor the Great Lord needs the pattern to destroy itself. Every single living being and thing in the universe are part of the pattern itself. The pattern IS the prison the Great Lord is trapped inside.

 

Consider the pattern a giant cage. Outside of there is NOTHING. Inside of it there is nothing+the Great Lord. The pattern itself is where everything (the universe) exists.. meaning that humans live/are a part of the cellbars. So when a human is burned out of the pattern the Great Lord can't bring them back because the pattern would be between him and the other nothingness.

 

 

E.

Balefire, the only reason

 

So what The Great Lord wants and the only reason why he simply doesn't swarm humanity with monsters and kill everyone... that is because he needs humans to use balefire. The Great Lord can never EVER destroy the pattern if it isn't unraveled by balefire.

 

 

 

F.

Padan Fain and his hate.

 

So what is Fain? And that miasma? why does he hate the dark one? (Aside from the torture.) This is another simple one I think. Jordan was early on inspired by Tolkien (Padan Fain being Ghollum) but as Wheel of Time grew and changed Jordan couldn't simple just write Padan out of the story and pretend he never happened. So he had to come up with something important for him... something similar to Ghollum... and viola... he had his answer in the miasma.

 

The Miasma at Shaddar Logoth eats everything and we saw what happened when it came in direct contact with a part of the Great Lord. The Miasma is something the people of Shaddar Logoth were able to conjure from their hate for the Shadow. Something like that need to have been something that was in opposition of the Great Lord even before that I think. Something that took shape as it was born from those humans hate. Now... we know that the only way to remove anything fro the pattern is by balefire and even then this part of the pattern just floats outside somewhere in the nothingness... So if you think about it... what they did when creating the bore... what happened to the thin part of the pattern that had been there? I mean it couldn't have just disappeared... it must have just been sent somewhere else in the pattern right? So.. the miasma that follows Faine is that part of the pattern! The angry part of the pattern! That part will be used to reseal the bore again...!

 

 

G.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul

 

Now this last one is a bit more iffy since it is very recent and isn't something I normally would study and give some thought. It concerns exactly what Rand's blood flowing on the steps of Shayol Ghul means. It will be a very painful and horrible thing but it is said that it is the only thing that can save them. But by them are we really talking about the last battle? We already have all these other prophecies. Is it logical that all of them concerns the actual last battle's battle?

 

To me I feel I finally understood the truth when I read about Aviendha realizing what would happen with her descendants. In those visions of the future Aviandha knows that there is nothing she can do to stop it from happening. Her descendants are mainly to blame for the destruction of the Aiel. So... Aviandha will stab herself in her stomach to kill her children before they are even born.

 

 

Anyway, those are some of my theories. Please discuss.

Edited by Dollhouse
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A few thoughts.

 

I like your idea about Demandred and the Seanchan. It fits well with Semirhage being part of his little group for the cool kids. Plus a male channeler could exploit the crap out of the Seanchan.

 

Im partially with you about saidin+saidar and the Prison. My personal belief is that the Creator IS the True Source, because if it were so, each name validates the other; the Creator made the world, therefor he is the True Source. But the Dark One is not the True Power, both because of an RJ quote (:D) and because him being the True Power would in a way validate the statement that would come with it, if you know what I mean. Its an Alpha Omega thing, the Dark One would have people think his is the real power over creation despite him being trapped, whereas the Creator would have people think his power IS creation. Which, ironically, I think is true.

 

The Pattern is the prison, agreed... but because everything and everyone has a thread, and because everything in the world helps create the Pattern... the WORLD is the prison. I think the Pattern is a Creator level shield, the Wheel is the equivalent of it being tied off, and because the Dark One is not of the world he has no thread, thus no physical presence in the world... making possessing True Power users(read: Ba'alzamon) his only way in, out, through, whatever.

 

But I dont think balefire is the only way to break it free. I think Rand could do it with his thoughts if he went as dark as Moridin (somebody snap Alannas Warder bond and 13x13 him!)

Edited by Drekka Mort
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So when a human is burned out of the pattern the Great Lord can't bring them back because the pattern would be between him and the other nothingness.

 

The only reason someone balefired cannot be brought back is a time issue. They are effectively dead before the DO knows they are. As for them being reborn eventually balefire does not stop that.

 

We know that Lews decided to marry Ilyena. We know that Lews and Mierin were an item and that somewhere down the line he decided to break up with her. His reason being that she was ambitious? So Mierin causes the opening of the bore and is afterwards quite possibly facing some sever punishment such as stilling. (Not saying this was the only reason but It certainly should have been a factor)

 

Lews never understood women, he just thought of them as 'pretty'. So yeah, I think that he is wrong. I believe that Mierin really do/did love him for real. Of course such love would quickly grow selfish like any other so...

 

 

Few things about Lanfear.

 

TSR

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even try to deny it. She is just shocked that he remembers.

 

Also we have RJ

 

Letter to Carolyn Fusinato from RJ - 1 February 1994

Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

In addition we have a quote stating that she was in no way twisted to the Shadow by her involvement in drilling the bore.

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

Every theory I have read all say that Demandred is/was with the Borderlanders...

 

On the contrary most people seem to think he is King Roedran of Murandy.

Edited by Suttree
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As to part A, the three major camps are that Demandred is either Roedrin, Jared Sarand, or the one sitting on the Seanchan Crystal Throne and commander of the army of the red-sailed ships. Sub-camps/ school of thought place him on the Isle of Madmen, in Shara, Borderland Army, or elsewhere.

 

My only other comment on Lanfear/Cyndane is that if I was mindtrapped and the connection wasn't broken like Moiraine and Lan's warder bond, wish #1 would be remove the mindtrap! I keep seeing people bringing up the possibility of Cyndane and Lanfear being two different people, but that died down with the explanation of the Finns draining her too fast and possibly reducing her abilities attached to her soul so that when transmigration occurred, she was less powerful.

 

Just my thoughts.

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the Dark One is not of the world he has no thread, thus no physical presence in the world... making possessing True Power users(read: Ba'alzamon) his only way in, out, through, whatever.

But physical presence...? That reminds me of the whole 2d dimensional beings not being able to understand 3d dimensional beings... The Great Lord would not have a physical presence since there is nothing but a will?

 

But That wasn't what I meant. But about your idea, imagine the Great Lord breaking out and remaking the world in his own presence? Does that mean he would use the actual pattern? his prison? No it said his own image/presence so the new pattern would be The great Lord and reality would be inverse placing "the creator" inside of the pattern and trapping "him" instead. Unless "always losing" is what makes the Great lord what he is, I find the concept that he never wins to be very strange. If he wins and destroys the pattern... then why is there a new struggle? I mean everything should be destroyed right?

 

So the idea gos that when the Great Lord wins, then the creator becomes the new Dark One and people being reborn in the pattern will see the former Creator as the big evil because it would be the creator trying to win and break out of the prison.

 

The only reason someone balefired cannot be brought back is a time issue. They are effectively dead before the DO knows they are. As for them being reborn eventually balefire does not stop that.

No, The great Lord specifically explains that balefire has placed them where he can no longer reach. So even if they will be reborn, for the moment he wouldn't be able to reach them since it will take some time for them to realign into the pattern again. While Balefire doesn't cause souldeath, it was said that it pulls people's threads out of the pattern.

 

 

TSR

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

 

Notice she doesn't even try to deny it. She is just shocked that he remembers.

Lews Therin was insane and by extension so was Rand so we can't take what he felt rang true as at the time as evidence. Also, I pointed out that Lews Therin was a jerk that didn't understand women to begin with. He only thought of them in terms of sex.

 

As for Mierin being startled if I recall correctly didn't she make some small speech about him starting to recall things after his little outburst?

 

Rand feels the word ring true because this was how he had sen it as Lews Therin. He did break up with her in the past right? And he did so because he felt she was to ambitious... I.E a woman that was as ambitious as him... So when he broke up with her he probably woudl have flung those exact words in her face.

 

"You don't love me! You only love power!"

 

Trying to make her feel bad for wanting to make something of herself. So yeah, I would imagine she would be shocked to hear almost the exact same words spoken by Lews reincarnation again.

 

 

Also we have RJ

 

"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

Yeah I've read that but nothing Jim says there really makes what I said any less true... besides, as far as "word of god" goes, he has been known to change things around a bit to make them fit. RJ somewhat even admits it with his Aes Sedai... spinning the truth.

 

But that is irrelevant, so I'll respond more directly to the specific of this post of Jim's.

 

First of all lets get things clear... we should be very careful when talking about Lanfear, Cyndane and Mierin. Notice that I very specifically refer to her as Mierin in all posts where I talk about her 'love' for Lews. Mierin was greedy and ambitious... but 'Lanfear'? No... Lanfear was what Mierin made herself into. I guess you could say that 'Lanfear' was Mierin's coveted third name?

 

love love love...

 

I specifically mentioned that love is very selfish right? That's what love is! That other kind isn't something real... it's something we just see in fantasy novels.

 

So if Lanfear could gain even more power from doing something she wanted to do anyway, why would this be a bad thing? delivering Lews as a servant to the Great Lord? Why not? If she served the Great Lord then they would be on the same side... so what would be bad about that?

 

And then there is Cyndane...

 

I believe it was Shadar Haran that explained it when he mentioned that the body would adjust to the mind but that the mind would also start adjusting to the body. So Mierin/Lanfear's mind should have been affected slightly by her new smaller body and loss in strength. As of yet we can't say for sure exactly how her mind has changed, but her mind SHOULD have changed.

 

In one of her povs we are shown that she actually was planning to usurp the Great Lord. That's a given but she also shows that she really had planned to allow Lews to rule by her side. Not under her, but by her side. So even if she was selfish and powerhungry, I believe that this shows that she wanted him to really love her. Not some puppet but the real him.

 

 

In addition we have a quote stating that she was in no way twisted to the Shadow by her involvement in drilling the bore.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

In The gathering Storm it was mentioned that Semirhage was the ONLY one of the chosen that freely went over to the shadow because she was already corrupted even before the Great Lord's prison was opened. I don't know if this was something Sanderson came up with or if it was Jim having made a mistake, changed his mind... or worded it in a circumspect way... It is however an interesting tidbit that supports my idea.

 

I didn't write that she didn't do it for power, I wrote that I can't see how it possibly couldn't have been an aspect of what made her make that decision. Mierin was greedy... as greed as Lews Therin ever was... but she wasn't a criminal before she actually joined the Shadow.

 

Oh... and the genius that bored the hole together with Mierin? he commuted suicide after having been blamed and ostracized for years. Are you suggesting that she wasn't subjected to the same thing? You're trying to tell me that somebody with her personality would have allowed herself to be on the 'losers side' and always be blamed when she had a chance to gain power instead?

 

She really only had three choices.

 

1. suicide

2. be a loser and blamed for the bore and hated/punished for the rest of her life. (never achieve greatness)

3. Get love, incredible power, glory and fame and everything else she wanted.

 

Yeah, the choice seems pretty easy to me.

 

 

On the contrary most people seem to think he is King Roedran of Murandy.

Yeah, this was based on what people wrote like 2007 or so which was last time I checked these boards. You have to excuse me... the last time I wrote and mentioned any of my theories on the Internet was 2001.

 

 

My only other comment on Lanfear/Cyndane is that if I was mindtrapped and the connection wasn't broken like Moiraine and Lan's warder bond, wish #1 would be remove the mindtrap!

Asking the Finn's about a future connected to anything about the shadow would most likely not have been answered... so I think the possibility that Mierin knew ahead of time about the Mindtraps would be very small. If she didn't know about it then how could she have wished for a way to get out of it?

 

 

Dollhouse, this is one of the best-reasoned and creative theory posts I have read in a long time. Bravo! I hope that at least half turns out to be true.

Well... I must admit that it was close to 10 years since I read most of the books which means my memory of names and exact scenes are a little sketchy at times. So my theories are actually based on fragments of the theories I had back in 2001. I could have explained it better back then... in fact I did. If you look at some of the REALLY old Wheel of Time boards you might be able to find them. I think I even got an account on "Dragonmount" back when it started. (the other boards were older) I think I was number 15 that joined or something? I can't recall what name I used though. Edited by Dollhouse
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TSR

You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!”

“And you loved power!” For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true—he knew they were true—but where had they come from? Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly.

Notice she doesn't even try to deny it. She is just shocked that he remembers.

Lews Therin was insane and by extension so was Rand so we can't take what he felt rang true as at the time as evidence. Also, I pointed out that Lews Therin was a jerk that didn't understand women to begin with. He only thought of them in terms of sex.

 

As for Mierin being startled if I recall correctly didn't she make some small speech about him starting to recall things after his little outburst?

 

Rand feels the word ring true because this was how he had sen it as Lews Therin. He did break up with her in the past right? And he did so because he felt she was to ambitious... I.E a woman that was as ambitious as him... So when he broke up with her he probably woudl have flung those exact words in her face.

 

"You don't love me! You only love power!"

 

Trying to make her feel bad for wanting to make something of herself. So yeah, I would imagine she would be shocked to hear almost the exact same words spoken by Lews reincarnation again.

That's how I read that passage. Mierin is startled because Rand is speaking from a perspective he shouldn't have. "Lews Therin" is beginning to seep into his thoughts. As far as I'm concerned it isn't controversial anymore (and hasn't been ever since WH) that Mierin was being honest when she said she loved him.

 

At the same time, LTT was kind of a jerk. We have hints of it from LTT himself in the prologue at the beginning of the series, and also in terms of how the other Forsaken describe him and how Rand himself struggles with his growing darkness through most of the series. If there's any great criticism I would make of Mierin, it's not that she's a liar, but that she has poor taste in men. She's also a wishful thinker. In that same scene she tells Rand twice that the Dark One had told her that if she would deliver Rand to him he would place him above all the other Forsaken and she and Rand could rule the world together. Rand doesn't believe it, talking about the "Father of Lies" and in this case I think he was right. The Dark One was almost certainly just telling Mierin what she wanted to hear.

 

Also, with regard to the claim by some (like Suttree) that Mierin's lack of objection to Rand's outburst is proof that he was telling the truth, Rand was making a claim distinct of love. He said that Mierin loved power, which was absolutely true--but not exclusive to the claim that she loved LTT himself. Human mateship works when people find common ground or admiration in aspects of each other's personalities. If you're attracted to a sense of humor...you'll seek out funny people. If you're attracted to an athletic lifestyle...you'll seek out athletes and outdoorspeople. And if you're attracted to power...you'll seek out powerful people. It's arbitrary and unsupportable to claim that the latter is any different from the others. Mierin was always a creature of power--so much so that in this same scene she gets dreamy-eyed just thinking about bathing in the power of the Dark One at the Pit of Doom. She doesn't care where power comes from. She cares only for what power can do for her. LTT was very powerful, so she was naturally and honestly drawn to him. To tear her affections apart, to claim that she loved the trait and not the person who held the trait, is laughable.

 

I've made the argument a few times on these forums that the real Lews Therin Telamon was very similar to Mierin Eronaile. They were both ambitious, both powerful, and both shared some of the same weaknesses. I'm not doubting that he went on to genuinely love Ilyana, nor am I implying that Mierin was anything other than a fool to continue to pursue him relentlessly, but I do think that people don't go far enough to recognize just how much LTT contributed to his relationship with Mierin not working out. He was probably an insecure person. He was probably emotionally immature. He had this thing about women, for one thing. For another, the Lews Therin in Rand's head also spoke of giving honor and acclaim to his colleagues, only to see them go over to the Shadow. There are many little such clues peppered throughout the series.

 

But most impressively of all, Lews Therin in the prologue--the only direct appearance of LTT in the entire series--talks exactly like Mierin talks, except he went mad after the Counterstroke, killed his family, and now is healed back to sanity only to bear witness to his crimes. So, of course he expresses regret at what he conceives of in that occasion as his folly. But it wasn't a folly, as we see in WH when Rand & Co. actually do clear the taint on Saidin, and as we are likely to see in AMoL with the creation of a new prison for the Dark One. Rather, LTT's point of view was incorrect. Mierin was right; it turned out to be within human power to counter the work of the Dark One and therein challenge the Creator. Indeed, she's right more often than a lot of other people in the series.

 

We have never had a POV from a sane Lews Therin Telamon. We had the grief-stricken LTT in the beginning, and the mad voice in Rand's head, and a lot of secondhand accounts from the Forsaken and Rand himself. I think there is more than enough ambiguity to conclude that he and Mierin basically had the same kind of personality back in the AoL. Indeed, that may be what ultimately drove them apart. Sometimes very similar people with big glaring weaknesses will perceive the weakness in the other person but not in themselves, and that creates a huge faultline.

 

Also we have RJ

 

"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

Yeah I've read that but nothing Jim says there really makes what I said any less true... besides, as far as "word of god" goes, he has been known to change things around a bit to make them fit. RJ somewhat even admits it with his Aes Sedai... spinning the truth.

Indeed. Suttree likes to post those quotes often, as if no one else has ever seen them. But they do not support the conclusions that he thinks they support. RJ clearly wanted us to think that Mierin is a nasty person...and frankly the Lanfear/Cyndane of the Third Age probably is a nasty person. More importantly, RJ probably thought that way about her himself. But at the same time, he never came out and gave us the kind of decisive "Sammael is toast" statements that would clear up this decades-old ambiguity about her true nature. All RJ really says here is that Mierin wanted power, that (in a turnabout) LTT never loved her, and that Mierin felt entitled to claim what she desired. All of the other Forsaken--every single one of them, including Asmodean whom many people are fond of--is unambiguously shown to be evil. With Mierin it's still a question mark. I don't doubt that she's been playing a different game this whole time and AMoL will reveal her either to be not evil at all, or more evil than all the rest. She's not like the other Forsaken.

 

First of all lets get things clear... we should be very careful when talking about Lanfear, Cyndane and Mierin.

Yeah, I take the same care. "Mierin" is who she is all throughout the series. "Lanfear" is her chosen name as a Forsaken, and "Cyndane" has yet to be fully explained but goes along with her new body. I talk about Mierin "as Lanfear" or "as Cyndane," but they're all the same person. I've actually gotten grief for being meticulous and thorough about this, so it's always nice to come across other people who appreciate the importance of taking care.

 

I guess you could say that 'Lanfear' was Mierin's coveted third name?

Back in the AoL Mierin was a researcher at one of the world's premiere research laboratories. Her project of uniting the sexes through the use of a new power source, had it not turned out to be the Dark One, would have made her the most important person in an Age of Legends (hence my sig). Yet Mierin is one of the few Forsaken who didn't have a third name. In the Third Age she has performed some of the most beautiful and complicated weaves in the series. She is the strongest female channeler alive, and probably the most dexterous channeler of either sex alive...and thus she is probably a better overall channeler than anybody but Rand, who has Jesus cheat codes going on.

 

In other words, given the contradiction of someone as accomplished as Mierin Eronaile not having a third name, I'm considerably likelier to place the blame on the politics behind the awarding of third names than I am to place the blame on Mierin herself for failing to distinguish herself.

 

I always wondered, though, why she chose "Daughter" of the Night rather than "Mother," given her role as Bore creator. Maybe she meant something more by it. Maybe it was a commentary on what the world drove her to become.

 

In one of her povs we are shown that she actually was planning to usurp the Great Lord. That's a given but she also shows that she really had planned to allow Lews to rule by her side. Not under her, but by her side. So even if she was selfish and powerhungry, I believe that this shows that she wanted him to really love her. Not some puppet but the real him.

And that's her only POV in the whole series, by the way (if you count all her POVs in that chapter as part of the same one). To Mierin's credit, she recognizes that there's no pleasure in being all-powerful alone. You gotta have somebody else who is all-powerful come along with you for the ride.

 

In addition we have a quote stating that she was in no way twisted to the Shadow by her involvement in drilling the bore.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

In The gathering Storm it was mentioned that Semirhage was the ONLY one of the chosen that freely went over to the shadow because she was already corrupted even before the Great Lord's prison was opened. I don't know if this was something Sanderson came up with or if it was Jim having made a mistake, changed his mind... or worded it in a circumspect way... It is however an interesting tidbit that supports my idea.

Mierin was ripe for the plucking because the Dark One only seems to know of two ways to persuade people: bribe them, and terrify them. Power-hungry Mierin was seduced by the offers of power showered upon her by the Shadow, and as someone who had already been spurned by LTT at that point she was seduced in particular by the prospect of using the Shadow's power to get him back.

 

So, she was naive a bit, and gullible, but not evil or even particularly corrupt. Mainly she was opportunistic and pragmatic.

 

Oh... and the genius that bored the hole together with Mierin? he commuted suicide after having been blamed and ostracized for years. Are you suggesting that she wasn't subjected to the same thing? You're trying to tell me that somebody with her personality would have allowed herself to be on the 'losers side' and always be blamed when she had a chance to gain power instead?

 

She really only had three choices.

 

1. suicide

2. be a loser and blamed for the bore and hated/punished for the rest of her life. (never achieve greatness)

3. Get love, incredible power, glory and fame and everything else she wanted.

 

Yeah, the choice seems pretty easy to me.

I've made that argument too. Through no fault of her own Mierin unleashed pure evil onto the world. RJ stressed that she was the only one who went over to the Shadow among her research team, but he conveniently (and probably deliberately) ignored the fact that there was no good alternative. Those people were hounded and shunned. They all either committed suicide, tried to live in obscurity, or faced harassment, persecution, and possibly prosecution by the whole world. Mierin chose another way. She was no doubt aware of the risks of doing so, and no doubt counted on her power to help her survive life among the Shadow under a boss that wanted them all dead. The only real question is whether she understood the Dark One's ultimate goals as well as Ishamael did.

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Unless "always losing" is what makes the Great lord what he is, I find the concept that he never wins to be very strange. If he wins and destroys the pattern... then why is there a new struggle? I mean everything should be destroyed right?

 

The DO has never won, but it only takes once for it to be game over...

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 1997

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.

 

 

No, The great Lord specifically explains that balefire has placed them where he can no longer reach. So even if they will be reborn, for the moment he wouldn't be able to reach them since it will take some time for them to realign into the pattern again. While Balefire doesn't cause souldeath, it was said that it pulls people's threads out of the pattern.

 

No as I said it is a time issue...in addition it doesn't pull their thread out it burns the thread back. Imagine lighting your shoelace.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

Lews Therin was insane and by extension so was Rand so we can't take what he felt rang true as at the time as evidence. Also, I pointed out that Lews Therin was a jerk that didn't understand women to begin with. He only thought of them in terms of sex.

 

So according to you we can't talk anything LTT says as correct because he is insane? That's funny, wonder if you could go back and let us know how many times LTT has told us something that is actually flat out false? Btw what would ever make you think all LTT did was focus on women for sex? That is never mentioned once and certainly wasn't the case with Ilyena. He enjoys looking at pretty women but that is a pretty large jump from one to the other.

 

 

As for Mierin being startled if I recall correctly didn't she make some small speech about him starting to recall things after his little outburst?

 

No she didn't. She attempts to sway him to the Shadow focusing on what she really cares about. How she would be set above the other Forsaken if she was the one to turn him. Which just happens to match up perfectly with the RJ quote about her true motivations. If she truly loved him she would have denied that claim up and down. Instead all she does is focus on what really matters to her.

 

 

Rand feels the word ring true because this was how he had sen it as Lews Therin...

 

He feels they ring true because they are, just like the vast majority of info passed on from LTT to Rand.

 

Trying to make her feel bad for wanting to make something of herself. So yeah, I would imagine she would be shocked to hear almost the exact same words spoken by Lews reincarnation again.

 

Wanting to make something of herself? She never truly loved him, she just loved power/prestige of being with him and attempted to use LTT as a shortcut to gain more. Her greed/thirst for power was likely the character flaw that held her back from earning a third name. Once again RJ's quote matches what Rand says, hence Word of God backing up what was written in the text.

 

Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

First of all lets get things clear... we should be very careful when talking about Lanfear, Cyndane and Mierin.

 

Why? They are all three the same. Lanfear was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before drilling the bore and was not twisted by her involvement in it. This is spelled out fairly clearly.

 

Are you suggesting that she wasn't subjected to the same thing? You're trying to tell me that somebody with her personality would have allowed herself to be on the 'losers side' and always be blamed when she had a chance to gain power instead?

She really only had three choices.

 

1. suicide

2. be a loser and blamed for the bore and hated/punished for the rest of her life. (never achieve greatness)

3. Get love, incredible power, glory and fame and everything else she wanted.

 

No I'm suggesting that "of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow." If it was such an obvious choice why did no one else involved make it? Her personality is exactly the problem as she has major flaws. She could have dedicated her life to helping the light in attempting to make things right. Instead she took the easy way out and grabbed a shortcut to power which is perfectly inline with the character traits we are told she always had.

 

One thing I would like to add when people discuss how much their relationship contributed to her future. The fact is they dated for a very short time, she didn't drill the bore until years later and LTT didn't marry Ilyena until 50 years later. The character portrait RJ paints in his quotes and all that is written in the BWB both back up what we have in the text about her not truly loving Rand. People are free to have their own interpretations on the topic but when the text, BWB and the author align in this fashion it is pretty much a slam dunk. There is really no reason to fabricate convoluted excuses for her actions. Lanfear saw LTT as a path towards a third name, power, acclaim and the world wide renown she did not have. When he realized this in the short time they dated he ended things. This by any sane measure should not have driven her to do anything along the lines of the actions she takes. That combined with her not being twisted by the bore project tells us all we need to know. She had personality defects in greed and a thirst for power(we know this for fact instead of some fabricated political agenda) that contributed to her not earning a third name and made her predisposed towards the Shadow.

 

Edit: Ahh Emu, was wondering how long it would take you to join the fray. Still fighting the good fight I see. It looks like you finally might have a comrade to take up the torch with you on this topic. As always you do a very good job of laying out your perspective. Not going to respond as we have already covered all the ground on the topic and would just be repeating passed discussions.

 

Second Edit: I haven't seen you mention these before so I will touch on it.

 

I've made that argument too. Through no fault of her own Mierin unleashed pure evil onto the world. RJ stressed that she was the only one who went over to the Shadow among her research team, but he conveniently (and probably deliberately) ignored the fact that there was no good alternative. Those people were hounded and shunned. They all either committed suicide, tried to live in obscurity, or faced harassment, persecution, and possibly prosecution by the whole world.

 

If true please provide support for these claims. Yes the team was blamed and rightly so but we are told of only one person who ended up committing suicide(Beidomon). The rest as far as I know is a total fabrication on your part. All we are told about the others on the research team is that not even one of them aside from Lanfear went over to the shadow. They continued fighting for the light. Also keep in mind the quote does not end there. It goes on to say that she was ripe for the Shadow long before the project. The two parts when taken together do not add up to the last desperate resort of someone with no other options. RJ was giving a clear explanation about Lanfear's personality to people attempting to claim she was influenced towards the Shadow by her involvement with the project. He was setting the record straight.

 

I always wondered, though, why she chose "Daughter" of the Night rather than "Mother," given her role as Bore creator. Maybe she meant something more by it. Maybe it was a commentary on what the world drove her to become.

 

Why don't we go with the reason we are told. She chose it because she claimed Tar and other peoples dreams as her domain. She used her skills in that area to commit more atrocities than any other forsaken and in the areas she governed she terrified the populace through dreams causing already large suicide rates to spike "extremely high". So yeah either that or some obscure commentary on how unfair the world is. It's a coin flip really. :rolleyes:

Edited by Suttree
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Generally it's a very bad idea to make predictions off half-remembered things. Characters say and think things that just aren't so and some of what they think they see turns out wrong too. This isn't to say that there isn't lots to like about the OP in topics I don't see discussed enough.

 

Anyway, I must have read the polls wrong and missed the memo on whom I'm supposed to think that Dem is :) By what the other Forsaken describe as his methods, it's stupid for him to have an alter ego. Then putting in the time to be Roedran gets him what exactly that he doesn't already have already except more and better?

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The DO has never won, but it only takes once for it to be game over...

I'll just ignore you quoting Sanderson and Jim since they really didn't have any relevance whatsoever to what I was saying. But that's what you get you you try to quote somebody out of context.

 

Lets see now... yes back to what I was saying, it doesn't matter if it only takes one loss for the game to be over, the idea that one side has never lost a single game for enumerable times is just plain ridiculous. Again, unless it is part of The Great Lords nature to always lose in the end... he should have won long ago. he has all these ages of experience and memories and knowledge an power but he can't win a single time?

 

No, The great Lord specifically explains that balefire has placed them where he can no longer reach. So even if they will be reborn, for the moment he wouldn't be able to reach them since it will take some time for them to realign into the pattern again. While Balefire doesn't cause souldeath, it was said that it pulls people's threads out of the pattern.

 

No as I said it is a time issue...in addition it doesn't pull their thread out it burns the thread back. Imagine lighting your shoelace.

I know... you say a lot of things.

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul.

Lets just stop here a bit and absorb this information for a bit.

 

Souls = part of the threads that make up the pattern

 

So the longer a thread floats around the further it would be buried among other threads. You can still find it after a lot of digging but it will take longer the further it is buried.

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

And there you have it. You highlighted the wrong part.

 

if you die naturally then you then the longer time you wait the further down your thread would be buried in the pattern. But Balefire does the opposite, instead of burring the thread it pulls it away from the pattern. If it is pulled away just slightly then you might be able to reach it, but not if it is fully pulled out and thrown into the air. Of course sooner or later even that thread would fall down and land on the pattern,... which would allow you to grab it again.

 

 

So according to you we can't talk anything LTT says as correct because he is insane?

Are you suggesting we should take a madman's ravings seriously?

 

No, I'm saying that anything Lews said when he was in a state of insanity can't fully be trusted since it is colored by that said madness. This is why I specifically mentioned Lews/Rand's now sane state where he is aware of his shortcomings an can start admit to them.

 

 

if you could go back and let us know how many times LTT has told us something that is actually flat out false?

Oh I don't think I need to actually quote an actual page... but I think maybe something like this would suffice?

 

"Oh!! I must kill them kill them all! burn them! kill them before they kill me! Yes that is right oh Ilyena!!!"

 

Lews in his mad ravings was very selfish. He saw everyone as enemies and believed everyone was betraying him. Any kind gesture or truly good actions by other people were viewed by him with suspicion. He believed they were all scheming and they always had an ulterior motive with everything.

 

 

Btw what would ever make you think all LTT did was focus on women for sex? That is never mentioned once and certainly wasn't the case with Ilyena. He enjoys looking at pretty women but that is a pretty large jump from one to the other.

Because Lews has shown no indication of anything else. Every time Lews even notice women he either thinks of them as sex objects or as people that are bad because they aren't doing things the way he want things to be run. I.E if a woman isn't a sex object then she is against him.

 

 

If she truly loved him she would have denied that claim up and down. Instead all she does is focus on what really matters to her.

What would denying it really achieve? Rand seemed to be sure of what he claimed so her denial would just have been seen as a lie. Also, how would denying something have proven that she loved him?

 

 

Wanting to make something of herself? She never truly loved him, she just loved power/prestige of being with him and attempted to use LTT as a shortcut to gain more. Her greed/thirst for power was likely the character flaw that held her back from earning a third name.

idle speculations...

 

Once again RJ's quote matches what Rand says, hence Word of God backing up what was written in the text.

It does? Non of the ones you have posted so far hasn't. RJ said Mierin wanted power and wanted Lews Therin. Lews Therin said all she ever loved was power.

 

See? Those are two completely different things.

 

 

First of all lets get things clear... we should be very careful when talking about Lanfear, Cyndane and Mierin.

Why? They are all three the same.

I already explained in my reply why they weren't exactly the same as have others.

 

 

I'm suggesting that "of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow." If it was such an obvious choice why did no one else involved make it?

We can only speculate since as far as I know RJ never mentioned their individual fates. "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" seem to strongly suggest that everyone but Mierin died when the bore was created but I really wasn't all that surprised when I read RJ saying that Beidomon had commited suicide later. I mean, it would have been odd if Mierin was the only survivor. Still it gives us a predence and a model to work with.

 

Why was Beidomon blamed? RJ's response suggests that it was because he was one of the front figures. Using this logic it is safe to assume that that all the front figures where held accountable and blamed. This does not tell us if the ones that didn't have a prominent role was subjected to the same scorn.

For the sake of the argument lets say the lesser member of the team was not blamed.

 

Among these people that were front figures was Mierin so she at least would have suffered the same scorn. Again, assuming that other front figures had survived there is no reason to believe that the wouldn't have been subjected to the same thing Beidomon was. If you ask yourself why Mierin went over to the dark side while the others didn't then you have to ask yourself... if Beidomon committed suicide... why didn't the others? What were their exact circumstances? had they support from their friends? ect ect

 

...and that is again, assuming that they didn't commit suicide or get killed by some vigilante. No it is still just idle speculation, conclusions drawn only from the few facts we have. But that is why it is called theories. We deal in theories on this forum.

 

 

Her personality is exactly the problem as she has major flaws. She could have dedicated her life to helping the light in attempting to make things right. Instead she took the easy way out and grabbed a shortcut to power which is perfectly inline with the character traits we are told she always had.

Shotrcut? So if you work you butt off in a company for years and never get a raise or promotion (whole others that do less do) and you one day get an off to join a company that would actually pay you better and give you an executive position... would you call that taking a short cut? Why should you continue working for a company that didn't give a crap about you?

 

Why should Mierin have worked for the light? Why should she be nice to people that had scorned her? I know many people see this as a bad character trait but I really don't.

 

 

One thing I would like to add when people discuss how much their relationship contributed to her future. The fact is they dated for a very short time, she didn't drill the bore until years later and LTT didn't marry Ilyena until 50 years later.

No, there is nothing that indicates that his relationship with Mierin was short; at least not by our definition of short.

 

 

Edit: Ahh Emu, was wondering how long it would take you to join the fray. Still fighting the good fight I see. It looks like you finally might have a comrade to take up the torch with you on this topic. As always you do a very good job of laying out your perspective. Not going to respond as we have already covered all the ground on the topic and would just be repeating passed discussions.

Getting personal? oh dear... well it is simple really. You are wrong Suttree, and if that was everything there was to it we could have all gone home by now. Sadly you chose to continue a discussion you had already lost which brings us to where we are. Please try to keep it civil and I will try to as well.

 

 

If true please provide support for these claims. Yes the team was blamed and rightly so but we are told of only one person who ended up committing suicide(Beidomon). The rest as far as I know is a total fabrication on your part.

No, I would call it idle speculation...

 

All we are told about the others on the research team is that not even one of them aside from Lanfear went over to the shadow. They continued fighting for the light.

Ah more idle speculation on your part. You make a big production about how RJ didn't say anything about them not committing suicides and then make wild claims that they fought on the side of the light? For all we know they were killed long before they had a chance to do anything... or they could have just remained on the sidelines not taking any side. Or maybe you consider "not doing a damn thing" is fighting for the light?

 

Also keep in mind the quote does not end there. It goes on to say that she was ripe for the Shadow long before the project.

She was an ambitious woman that had been held down by politics and denied the prestige an power she should by all accounts should have been given long ago. Again, that is what "ripe for the plucking" meant in Mierin's case. It's nothing special, certainly not anything that made her an evil person or even really a bad person.

 

RJ was giving a clear explanation about Lanfear's personality to people attempting to claim she was influenced towards the Shadow by her involvement with the project. He was setting the record straight.

No, he was saying that the bore wasn't the reason why she joined the shadow. He was saying that Mierin was greedy and ambitious before the bore was drilled. But we knew all this already. He never said anything about exactly what had caused her to be ready for the plucking. Remember that his response was to "Was the drilling of the bore the cause why Mierin joined the shadow?". It was never a question that asked; how did Mierin's ambition make her join the shadow?

 

I always wondered, though, why she chose "Daughter" of the Night rather than "Mother," given her role as Bore creator. Maybe she meant something more by it. Maybe it was a commentary on what the world drove her to become.

Why don't we go with the reason we are told. She chose it because she claimed Tar and other peoples dreams as her domain. She used her skills in that area to commit more atrocities than any other forsaken and in the areas she governed she terrified the populace through dreams causing already large suicide rates to spike "extremely high". So yeah either that or some obscure commentary on how unfair the world is. It's a coin flip really. :rolleyes:

Actually, the reason you state isn't really an exact explanation. She COULD have gone with "mother of the nigh" but she didn't. But I wont claim that her name had any real meaning to it. In my opinion I think in the case of her name it was "the rule of cool". Because I mean... "mother of the night" doesn't really have that same knack to it. So it was either "Daughter of the night" or "queen of the night". I think it is fairly obvious why Jim didn't go with the later. Edited by Dollhouse
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Lets see now... yes back to what I was saying, it doesn't matter if it only takes one loss for the game to be over, the idea that one side has never lost a single game for enumerable times is just plain ridiculous. Again, unless it is part of The Great Lords nature to always lose in the end... he should have won long ago. he has all these ages of experience and memories and knowledge an power but he can't win a single time?

 

Sigh. As with many of your responses you have a flawed understanding of the situation. The quotes were relevant in understanding the bigger picture and here is another for you. Their are degrees of victory for the DO. It's not that he has lost totally every time, he has just not had a complete victory and those times he won lesser victories it resulted in a draw with the light.

 

Rothaar: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight the Dark One. It's never simple.

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul.

Lets just stop here a bit and absorb this information for a bit.

 

Souls = part of the threads that make up the pattern

 

So the longer a thread floats around the further it would be buried among other threads. You can still find it after a lot of digging but it will take longer the further it is buried.

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

And there you have it. You highlighted the wrong part.

 

if you die naturally then you then the longer time you wait the further down your thread would be buried in the pattern. But Balefire does the opposite, instead of burring the thread it pulls it away from the pattern. If it is pulled away just slightly then you might be able to reach it, but not if it is fully pulled out and thrown into the air. Of course sooner or later even that thread would fall down and land on the pattern,... which would allow you to grab it again.

 

Dollhouse, maybe you should take some time exploring the site and reading up on things before you offer such strong opinions. It is well established that balefire burns a thread back and the DO being unable to resurrect those killed with it is a time issue. It's not even open for debate. Balefire burns a thread back far enough that the person is gone before the DO knows they died. RJ plainly states it being a time issue in the quote above and flat out says it burns a thread back in the one below. Exactly how I described it in my post.

 

Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?

RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out.

 

"Oh!! I must kill them kill them all! burn them! kill them before they kill me! Yes that is right oh Ilyena!!!"

 

Lews in his mad ravings was very selfish. He saw everyone as enemies and believed everyone was betraying him. Any kind gesture or truly good actions by other people were viewed by him with suspicion. He believed they were all scheming and they always had an ulterior motive with everything.

 

Sorry, not going to let you wiggle away from the issue that quickly. I ask you for proof that just one thing LTT has told us about his old life or the other forsaken is false. You offer ravings that have no bearing on the topic. Again if LTT is in the habit of giving us lies in his madness it should be easy for you to do. Go ahead just give us one to cast doubt on what he says here.

 

Because Lews has shown no indication of anything else. Every time Lews even notice women he either thinks of them as sex objects or as people that are bad because they aren't doing things the way he want things to be run. I.E if a woman isn't a sex object then she is against him.

 

Errmmm don't even know what to say to this. He didn't like Lanfear because she wanted the prestige and power of being with him more than she wanted him. It is a fallacy on your part to jump from him enjoying looking at pretty women to your blanket condemnation above. According to you Ilyena was a sex object and nothing more?

 

What would denying it really achieve? Rand seemed to be sure of what he claimed so her denial would just have been seen as a lie. Also, how would denying something have proven that she loved him?

 

The natural response in that situation if the claim is untrue would be to set the record straight. It certainly wouldn't be to accept it and then prove it even more right by attempting to sway one to the DO and speaking of the power she wants. her response validates everything he had just thought about her.

 

idle speculations...

 

Perhaps but we know she was a brilliant researcher and the most powerful a women could be in the OP. What then would hold someone like that from being world renowned and earning a third name? In the AoL were unselfishness and self sacrifice earned the greatest respect you can certainly see how that would have held her back. It is far more plausible than some shadowy political plot against her that is never even hinted at in the slightest.

 

 

It does? Non of the ones you have posted so far hasn't. RJ said Mierin wanted power and wanted Lews Therin. Lews Therin said all she ever loved was power.

 

See? Those are two completely different things.

 

Actually RJ said she may have wanted LTT but she wanted power more and that is the difference.

 

"Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha!"; "Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her"; "but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance."

 

Do those sounds like the actions of someone that truly loved him? She loved power & prestige more than she loved him and was using him to get it. LTT knew this and that is why he said and "and you loved power" Instead of guessing as to why he broke it off(her not running things how he wanted or some such nonsense) let's go with the reason given.

 

BWB

Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

 

Since you sidestepped the question I will ask again. What about his relationship with Ilyena is indicative of the portrait you try to paint of how he deals with women? She was just a sex object and nothing more?

 

I already explained in my reply why they weren't exactly the same as have others.

 

You have explained a number of things and the majority of them have been proven wrong.

 

As have others? You mean in addition to you, Emu has as well. That would be one person, one person who just happens to be the a member of the very rare group that supports this interpretation.

 

"The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" seem to strongly suggest that everyone but Mierin died when the bore was created but I really wasn't all that surprised when I read RJ saying that Beidomon had commited suicide later. I mean, it would have been odd if Mierin was the only survivor. Still it gives us a predence and a model to work with.

 

No it doesn't, not even slightly. I suggest you go back and reread the section as it says nothing of the sort. Let's not speculate and stick with the one fact that we know. RJ said others survived and none of them went over except for Lanfear. We also know she had character traits that would predispose her towards the Shadow. The two pieced together while not conclusive present a suggestive picture.

 

Shotrcut? So if you work you butt off in a company for years and never get a raise or promotion (whole others that do less do) and you one day get an off to join a company that would actually pay you better and give you an executive position... would you call that taking a short cut? Why should you continue working for a company that didn't give a crap about you?

 

Please provide any evidence that shows that is the case with Lanfear. IRC nothing like that is mentioned ever in the series.

 

No, there is nothing that indicates that his relationship with Mierin was short; at least not by our definition of short.

 

Sigh. See a pattern here. Yes the relationship was short.

 

BWB

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time

 

Getting personal? oh dear... well it is simple really. You are wrong Suttree, and if that was everything there was to it we could have all gone home by now. Sadly you chose to continue a discussion you had already lost which brings us to where we are. Please try to keep it civil and I will try to as well.

 

I have lost? :rolleyes: Look noob(assuming you havent changed your handle), you really should get over yourself. Try to get to know the posters and read up on the subject matter before jumping into a topic like this. It will help not having to repeat basics such as the balefire subject. Also you do realize you just saying I'm wrong and I have lost doesn't make it so? You have to actually win the debate and so far your record on that has been abysmal. You have been consistently off when discussing the cosmology of the series and as for the topic at hand, now that you are on the boards that makes exactly two of you taking this stance on Lanfear. You both hold to an interpretation of her character that is very rare and mostly unsupported in the text. It's been funny actually seeing you get eggy and trying to make snide remarks. Just take a deep breath and try to keep your head above water, it'll be ok.

 

As for Emu and I, we have discussed the topic many times hence my reply, nothing more to it than that. She has indicated in the past that she feels the same way unless their is new ground to cover.

 

She was an ambitious woman that had been held down by politics and denied the prestige an power she should by all accounts should have been given long ago. Again, that is what "ripe for the plucking" meant in Mierin's case. It's nothing special, certainly not anything that made her an evil person or even really a bad person.

 

Where is this coming from. What politics? What was she denied? It was very difficult to earn a third name. There were a few rare people the world over who had achieved it. All we know for fact is that she was not renowned enough to have earned it and she had character flaws that certainly would have held her back from doing so. A thirst for power and someone who claims a right to anything they wanted(especially that denied to her), would not have gone over well in that society in which unselfish service brought honor.

 

No, he was saying that the bore wasn't the reason why she joined the shadow. He was saying that Mierin was greedy and ambitious before the bore was drilled. But we knew all this already. He never said anything about exactly what had caused her to be ready for the plucking. Remember that his response was to "Was the drilling of the bore the cause why Mierin joined the shadow?". It was never a question that asked; how did Mierin's ambition make her join the shadow?

bvious why Jim didn't go with the later.

 

Actually it was in answer to "As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore". His answer was that she was not twisted and had character traits that would make her predisposed to the Shadow already.

Edited by Suttree
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I'm too lazy to quote, but on the above BWB quote: that's odd. I specifically remember reading a quote that said they were lovers for 'some years'; maybe it was an RJ quote but I thought it was the BWB. I remember cos I read it and thought how strange that was. But then maybe 'some years' is classed as a short time when you have a lifespan of 800 years. It definitely was quite a long time though, because Rand has a memory of her in his arms when they were both 'young and just learning what they could do with the power'. Since they both would have started channeling in their late teens (RJ was very specific about that) then they probably weren't older than thirty. She apparently stayed with him long enough for him to become 'the great Lews Therin' and the if he broke up with her...let's say fifty years before the bore was drilled (since the BWB says 'some years before the Bore was drilled'), then that's still...at least two hundred years???? Ok there's definitely been a mistake here somewhere. :blink:

Edited by Randommer
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As to point E.

 

Didn't the Shadow and Light agree in the past to cut out the use of balefire because of the complications it caused? If the Dark Lord wanted them all to use it why didn't he allow this deal to brokered?

 

Hasn't there also been shock shown by Forsaken when Rand used balefire against them?

 

The only time I can think of where the shadow encouraged the use of balefire was when Moridin and Rand had their little pow wow in tGS. Moridin let's it be known that to defeat a forsaken balefire must be used. That's for his benefit in dwindling his rivals down and to push Rand further along in his madness/ turning to the shadow.

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I'm too lazy to quote, but on the above BWB quote: that's odd. I specifically remember reading a quote that said they were lovers for 'some years'; maybe it was an RJ quote but I thought it was the BWB. I remember cos I read it and thought how strange that was. But then maybe 'some years' is classed as a short time when you have a lifespan of 800 years. It definitely was quite a long time though, because Rand has a memory of her in his arms when they were both 'young and just learning what they could do with the power'.

 

Here is the link so you can brush up on it mate. As far as I know there is no RJ quote stating what you say above.

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wheeloftime/Chapter%206.htm

BWB

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself. Mierin was never willing to accept that break and continued a determined pursuit of him.

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I'm too lazy to quote, but on the above BWB quote: that's odd. I specifically remember reading a quote that said they were lovers for 'some years'; maybe it was an RJ quote but I thought it was the BWB. I remember cos I read it and thought how strange that was. But then maybe 'some years' is classed as a short time when you have a lifespan of 800 years. It definitely was quite a long time though, because Rand has a memory of her in his arms when they were both 'young and just learning what they could do with the power'.

 

Here is the link so you can brush up on it mate. As far as I know there is no RJ quote stating what you say above.

 

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wheeloftime/Chapter%206.htm

BWB

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself. Mierin was never willing to accept that break and continued a determined pursuit of him.

 

I don't doubt the quote; I'm just saying that it's odd. Rand definitely did have a memory in TSR of being with her when they were both young, and they certainly weren't young by the time they broke up, not when he had already gained a deal of power in an environment where people lived for hundreds of years. Remember that RJ specifically said the BWB was not 100% accurate in all things. Tbh, I think RJ might have gotten a few things off time-wise with the AoL Aes Sedai's crazy lifespans. For example, why did LTT have young kids in the prologue when he was 400 and had been married for sixty years? They were never mentioned after that.

Edited by Randommer
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As to point E.

 

Didn't the Shadow and Light agree in the past to cut out the use of balefire because of the complications it caused? If the Dark Lord wanted them all to use it why didn't he allow this deal to brokered?

 

Hasn't there also been shock shown by Forsaken when Rand used balefire against them?

 

The only time I can think of where the shadow encouraged the use of balefire was when Moridin and Rand had their little pow wow in tGS. Moridin let's it be known that to defeat a forsaken balefire must be used. That's for his benefit in dwindling his rivals down and to push Rand further along in his madness/ turning to the shadow.

I always wondered why Moridin let that slip. He didn't particularly need his rivals to be whittled down at that point - he was already Nae'blis, and it would be unlike Moridin to go against the DO like that. Not to mention very dangerous for him. I sort of thought it was just supposed to show that he was thrown by Rand's presence, but that was always a meh explanation.

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As to point E.

 

Didn't the Shadow and Light agree in the past to cut out the use of balefire because of the complications it caused? If the Dark Lord wanted them all to use it why didn't he allow this deal to brokered?

 

Hasn't there also been shock shown by Forsaken when Rand used balefire against them?

 

The only time I can think of where the shadow encouraged the use of balefire was when Moridin and Rand had their little pow wow in tGS. Moridin let's it be known that to defeat a forsaken balefire must be used. That's for his benefit in dwindling his rivals down and to push Rand further along in his madness/ turning to the shadow.

I always wondered why Moridin let that slip. He didn't particularly need his rivals to be whittled down at that point - he was already Nae'blis, and it would be unlike Moridin to go against the DO like that. Not to mention very dangerous for him. I sort of thought it was just supposed to show that he was thrown by Rand's presence, but that was always a meh explanation.

 

Well he was fatigued at the time as well but I still think to whittle down the others, who arent really a true believer like Moridin. Also he might be Naeblis but that won't stop the others from jockeying for position, didn't one or two povs shown this.

Been a while since I read the book but did the he not balefire Semirhage not long after? And it did appear to me that she was sacrificed. My patchy memory could show me up here.

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I don't doubt the quote; I'm just saying that it's odd. Rand definitely did have a memory in TSR of being with her when they were both young,

 

Yeah I recall a quote to that effect, would be interested to read what it actually says. Any idea what chapter of TSR it is in?

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So Demandred's location is now obvious. He was and IS in Seanchan. Seanchan was said to suddenly have broken out in civil war and a man had taken the throne. In other words, Demandred is coming to Tarmon Gaidon with the rest of the Seanchan forces. (his furrbrimmed coat?

 

That civil war that's broken out in Seandar isn't really sudden unless a very short period of time has passed between the prologue of KoD and the beginning of ToM. I get the impression that people overlook the first mention of that war two books back... I certainly did. How much time exactly elapsed in Randland between the two? A couple months?

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So Demandred's location is now obvious. He was and IS in Seanchan. Seanchan was said to suddenly have broken out in civil war and a man had taken the throne. In other words, Demandred is coming to Tarmon Gaidon with the rest of the Seanchan forces. (his furrbrimmed coat?

 

That civil war that's broken out in Seandar isn't really sudden unless a very short period of time has passed between the prologue of KoD and the beginning of ToM. I get the impression that people overlook the first mention of that war two books back... I certainly did. How much time exactly elapsed in Randland between the two? A couple months?

 

Correct and maybe a bit longer, according to Steven Cooper it was over two months from KoD to the end of TGS...

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It's getting just about as welcoming as Theoryland around here lol. Dollhouse, I see plenty of good insight in your posts that should see further discussion, but you do need to check what's in the books too, I vaguely recall doesn't cut it :) Off the cuff author responses you probably don't have to bother with, but the Question of the Week segments and RJ blog entries (both archived here) should be checked out.

 

As to point E.

 

Didn't the Shadow and Light agree in the past to cut out the use of balefire because of the complications it caused? If the Dark Lord wanted them all to use it why didn't he allow this deal to brokered?

 

Hasn't there also been shock shown by Forsaken when Rand used balefire against them?

It wasn't a parley type of thing they just stopped using it (Dem in KoD prologue, I think mentioned in similar wording with Aes Sedai expository dialog in a few places). I think it was more shock that Rand or an Aes Sedai could do something they would fear--Rahvin used it but there was a time skip in that fight, Moggy threw it, others too...wait, who hasn't by this point?

Edited by Cybertrolloc
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Some interesting conclusions being reached using the wrong, or rather no evidence here.

 

We have no idea what kind of person Lews Therin Telamon was. We've only ever gotten to see him as a shattered man, wandering through the wreckage of his life, so stunned by grief that he is in total denial of what he sees, or as a strange, often paranoiac voice in Rand's head.

 

We never see The Lews Therin who won his third name. The foremost philosopher of his Age ( which is why Elan Morin Tedronai hates him so. ) The sportsman, who along with Duram Laddel Cham aka Bel'al, reinvented the sport of fencing. The Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn. The foremost Singer. The foremost Channeler. The man who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and commanded the Nine Rods of Dominion.

 

That man we never get to see. He was certainly not many of the things he is accused of. Nor did he hold many of the attitudes some are ascribing to him. Had he been the person they describe, he never could have accomplished the things that he did. He never could have been proclaimed The Dragon, nor accepted as his Champion by the Creator.

 

So, he enjoys the sight of a pretty woman. So does every other heterosexual male. Just looking at a pretty woman releases endorphins that make men feel better. Doesn't mean he is incapable of love. Nor does it mean that he only sees women as sexual objects. All it proves is that he is a heterosexual male.

 

Ease up on the sexual politics, folks. This is a forum to discuss a book, not anybody's personal, private agendas.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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We have no idea what kind of person Lews Therin Telamon was. We've only ever gotten to see him as a shattered man, wandering through the wreckage of his life, so stunned by grief that he is in total denial of what he sees, or as a strange, often paranoiac voice in Rand's head.

 

We never see The Lews Therin who won his third name. The foremost philosopher of his Age ( which is why Elan Morin Tedronai hates him so. ) The sportsman, who along with Duram Laddel Cham aka Bel'al, reinvented the sport of fencing. The Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn. The foremost Singer. The foremost Channeler. The man who wore the Ring of Tamyrlin and commanded the Nine Rods of Dominion.

 

That man we never get to see. He was certainly not many of the things he is accused of. Nor did he hold many of the attitudes some are ascribing to him. Had he been the person they describe, he never could have accomplished the things that he did. He never could have been proclaimed The Dragon, nor accepted as his Champion by the Creator.

 

Indeed. I wonder if those accusing him of these things find it ironic that in a society that honored self sacrifice and service above all else, LTT was the most acclaimed man of his age while Lanfear was not world renowned nor earned the third name. In addition she just happens to have character defects that give us a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why she never did so in that setting. So yeah, it was either that or some shadowy political conspiracy that is never even remotely hinted at designed to hold her down. :rolleyes: Which sounds more realistic to you?

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The latter! I hate that smug Lews Therin and I can't wait, CANT WAIT! For him to get his come up ens! Two of the Shadow's generals don't hate him for nothing. There's no smoke without fire. Him with his singing and his drawing and his pretty boy looks. Makes me sick it does.

Nothing but a big show off with a fathead.

Edited by Owayn The Traveller
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The latter! I hate that smug Lews Therin and I can't wait, CANT WAIT! For him to get his come up ens! Two of the Saharows generals don't hate him for nothing. There's no smoke without fire. Him with his singing and his drawing and his pretty boy looks. Makes me sick it does.

Nothing but a big show off with a fathead.

 

And now hes all like "Eeew look at me with my red hair and special crying power! Arent I perfect?"

 

The churl. Cant tie his own shoelaces NOW can he?

Edited by Drekka Mort
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