one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Graendals favourite]

Jonn, you found one parcel of wisdom there, it does not change facts that one repeats something endlessly. The truth, on the other hand, stands out when it is only stated once, though of course the listener must listen and be attentive.

 

You speak of subjective truth when you say truth requires a form of acceptance, but I am not particularly interested in that. Objective truths are so much better if they can be found. It goes beyond the possibilities of human communication to have someone accept a proposed truth; one can only say how things are, and it is up to the listener to decide what they think of it. When one has some experience, one is not dependent on the crowd to distinguish what is right and wrong, however, and ultimately, not to be a sheep, one must judge things for himself. The collective seldom acts very wisely, or comes up with much, there must be people who think for themselves to achieve things.

 

So, I could go on and on with this without anyone becoming the wiser, but I do not meet your arguments Jonn because they are unfounded and I've heard them many times before. Building arguments that are solid is a skill of its own. How about this answer: the murder is solved, RJ has noted a some people have figured it out. Why should he make the solving easier now that he has proof it can be done? That would just negate the purpose of having a mystery, why must it be made easy?

 

Anyway, I explained the case before, to a good enough extent, you failed to understand it so... I think it's a fun thing to think about, so let other people go at it if they wish. If they wish to read ideas for solving it, they can read them here, but getting help is not the point, one must still think about it well to get anywhere.

 

Arrogant, huh? I feel disinclined to acquiesce to your request to further expound on the straws you grasp... Anyway, folks can read my thoughts, and fill out if it's incomplete somewhere, if they wish to, I am content to say it is so once here. Perhaps you will, Jonn, find the truth one day...

[Mr Ares]

I'll be more than happy to go after your whole scoring system and Graendal (again) some other time. I have for been examining the Graendal thing for years now, so it's not that big a deal to me.

We've all been over this again and again, but you're welcome to try arguing against those points.

 

The point I'd like to make now is about what a reader is supposed to think when they read the words on the page. Now, a writer has to obsess over this very thing over and over when they write because it is the nature of the medium. You are trying to, as a writer, send a message that other people can interpret and relate to to such a degree that you almost share the same thought. The point is that there is always a reason to write something in a certain way for a certain reason. There is no "I wrote it like that because I felt like it, that's why." Even doing it for that reason implies that the author wants to be selfish and is challenging the reader in a way that basically amounts to telling them; "Eat sh*t, I'm doing it this way and that's that, jerk." In RJ's case this is totally opposite from the way he usually writes which is very detailed and almost longing to give the reader a totally immersing experience. It's out of character and it bothers me as a reader.

 

I don't believe that he just wrote it that way thinking we could just figure it out and be done with it. He can spend two paragraphs describing the tea people are drinking, and that is all by design. If he can leave out enough details to create such doubt as to who killed Asmodean, there is a reason behind it and not just because he felt like laughing at us.

 

Now, you don't write the sum total of two lines about Graendal prior to Asmodean getting offed and then expect the readers to make a character decision about her and make this vague connection linking her as the murderer. That makes even less sense than RJ's breaking of character. It's not funny, nor is it clever. It's bad storytelling.

 

Some people liken the situation to a minor "niggle". Not a big deal. It's just a minor detail. We create the obsession. I disagree. If we were watching a movie and there was a dinner scene in the movie, a minor lack of detail would be if there was a cup on the right side of the table when the scene began and in the next frame it was on the other side of the table. Well, it's an editing mistake, it's a directing mistake, a simple small mistake, period. People are acting like Asmodean's death is like that little mistake, a tiny detail. I actually think it's closer to the main characters in a movie are in a dinner scene and in one frame all of a sudden that tablecloth is gone, or suddenly all of the silver ware is gone. It's so distracting that the characters in the film in a puzzled manner, mention it, as if they don't know they're in a movie...all of a sudden this element of reality is just abruptly removed...minor as it is to not have a tablecloth, this detail draws notice and it could mean many things, none of which is very comforting. Just as Rand and several of the Forsaken mention Asmodean (including Moiraine), before and after his death and disappearance, all wondering what became of him, they are like the people in the movie we're watching wondering where the tablecloth went. Well, the audience watching that movie would be confused as well. Let alone being curious as to why the tablecloth is gone abruptly, they are even more baffled when even the characters on screen cannot say.

 

I don't know if you get my point or not, but what I'm trying to say is, there is a valid reason to have doubt. It's written that way. For a reason.

I get your point. What I think is that RJ wrote a mystery, with enough clues to figure it out. In following books, he decided to provide further clues to help people work it out, even though it was of no further relevance to the story, or more accurately, not a huge part of the story. he has so far withheld the answer, not because hiding the answer is of some huge relevance to the story, but because the answer is trival, but he enjoys watching people argue over it. A couple of lines in AMOL to solve the whole thing is all that's necessary. Just a Graendal POV (or from whoever, if it's not her) saying that she killed him, or referencing killing the traitor in Caemlyn, or some such. He could give away the answer right now, for all the relevance, but he chooses not to. It is not like the example you give, of a huge glaring fault, of the table cloth going missing, because as a recent thread shows, not everyone even noticed he was dead. While we all argue, he decides whether or not now is the time for the big reveal, and decides to wait. It would be like some minor detail in a film, that some people wouldn't notice, and others see as just a minor plot hole, not really of huge relevance, but in the last act, a throwaway line solves the mystery, for anyone interested and paying attention. Yes, there is valid reason for doubt - we cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was Graendal, but then again, we can say with a great deal of certainty that she is the best candidate put forward so far, with the best supporting arguments, and is certainly the most likely, but RJ could always do the blatantly unreasonable thing and have a killer lacking in means, motive, and opportunity, or say that someone who requires masses of assumptions to make a viable case for is in some way obvious. We are given enough for an answer. RJ simply decided that rather than give it away in the next book, he would hold back the answer for a bit, and that bit has so far stretched to book 12, from book 5. If he gives us an answer before the end, is it really that important that he could have given us the answer at the time, or in WH, or whenever, without making the slightest difference to the story?

 

Refuse to examine other theories or thoughts.

Pot, kettle and black are all words that spring to mind here, although we are all guilty to one extent or another.

You have no proof of whether or not Graendal was in the right place at the right time.

You have no proof of any of your assumptions about Moiraine, of which there are substantially more than in Graendal theory.

You have no proof of her having enough information to even figure out that Asmodean was going to be on the crime scene.

Again, for Moiraine, look at your own assumptions. How did she get there, how can she still channel, why was she a prisoner, why did they trade with a prisoner, why is Cyndane weaker, all these and more are all tied together with the Moiraine case. How aout she had a pre-arranged meeting with Rhavin, and he had agreed to meet on his turf, and she arrived and found Asmo, so she killed him and ran. Satisfied?

The entire thing sounds nothing like her MO, which points to her using Compulsion rather than killing the man.

Really? She wouldn't make him her pretty, as that would be counterproductive, unless she kept him a secret from the others (no point highlighting that you are spending a lot of time with a traitor and not handing him over), and if she took him to Shayol Ghul he would probably die anyway, so she could just kill him as that is easier than taking him. Unless you mean she would use Compulsion but leave him there. So is he an assassin or a spy? Spy leaves problems such as what if he is found out, and leads back to her, and the difficulties of sending information back without getting found out, and the possibility of Asmo shrugging off the Compulsion, and the fact that it won't work on men holding the OP and so on, so that leaves her with making an assassin, and again, if he is already holding the OP (which she couldn't know until she tried to shield him) he is immune, or he could get found out and stopped - the easiest course of action is kill him and get out. No more worries about the traitor, and her base remains as secret as ever.

We have no proof that she would even dare to use balefire, which is the likely weapon that totally erased any trace of the man.

We have no proof that Moiraine can even channel, and more evidence against than for. The evidence for is that she was a channeler, and we don't know she was stilled. The evidence against is that Cyndane is weaker, and the only thing we know of that can do that is severing and same sex Healing, and Lan is now bonded to Myrelle, something that was supposed to happen if Moiraine died, and severing having the same effect upon the bond as death, and we know she is held, and thus did not channel her way out of Finnland, and she was caught in the vicinity of an exploding ter'angreal, something dangerous, which can cause stilling. She may or may not be willing to use balefire, but if not she may have another killing weave she can use - there's more than one way to skin a cat Hadnan Kadere

 

Arguments against eagerly awaited

Yours Argumentatively,

Mr Ares

[Child of Lir]

Yes, RJ is only keeping us waiting for the "OK, I'll admit it. I did it" moment because he enjoys watching us squirm (his words).

Yes, RJ has given us the rules for solving the murder if we need help - immediately obvious to even the casual reader (implying no deep thought or complex theorising required); and all the clues in the first five books (ruling out anyone who appears afterwards).

Yes, some of us did find an immediately obvious answer on first reading and can't see why others fail to find it obvious.

 

But, there are still many people who are going to be way off the mark, or even just slightly off the mark - either because they haven't got under the skin of RJ's writing style, or they can't make sense of the answer, or they're looking too deeply into it, or they're looking for clues that aren't there, or for hundreds of other reasons....

 

Therefore, I for one think it is prudent to avoid stating categorically that X or Y is the murderer because not everyone can be right and some will end up looking rather foolish. This is especially the case when it deteriorates into a slanging match. It's fine to present your theories, with accompanying facts to support them, but to say "X did it. I'm right; you're wrong" is not only rather rude, but also rather risky.

 

We've got to remember that RJ is the author - he can make anything happen in the story that he wants to. He's surprised us before and no doubt will again, so just because we may believe we have all the facts about the case, doesn't mean that we do have. Certainly there are many unanswered questions surrounding the murder, which don't preclude arriving at a culprit, but they do preclude us having all the details of the "how". RJ still has to give us those remaining facts and, until he does, anything can be possible (within the deduction boundaries he has already given us).

[Despair]

I still think it is Taim. I still think Taim/Demandred are very interwoven.  When it comes to moving around, Taim is the best at just popping up.  Best male character who can open gateways while still picking his teeth.  Or it could be anyone.  We will see.

[Graendals favourite]

Child of Lir, I think it goes, yes it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, but the murderer can be figured out by the time of the murder, and there are also clues in later books. So you can solve the puzzle, and there are also clues to solving it later on. So, looking for a solution, a solution that doesn't hold water with only the first five books is no solution.

 

I see your point of categorical statements, but I have been certain of this for over a year, and put my head on the block as long. I will look incredibly, 200 pages worth of threads, foolish were I wrong with the Travelling. Plus I promised to eat a hat early in this thread. So I might as well not squirm about it.

 

And yet even before that I knew I was no the right track, when I only thought the coincidence of the murderer meeting Asmodean in such a good ambush location by chance virtually impossible. I think we debated that shortly two years ago, I couldn't really pull it through then. Anyway, I should thank you, as I remember, you were the one who asked, "what was Graendal, one of the Forsaken, doing hiding in a cupboard in Caemlyn?" or something similar, which got me to agree that it made no sense. Well, here I am at reactions and surprises, but it must be so.

[Despair]

Egwene.

 

I have been certain also for the last 5 years. But the more we read this thread, the more it makes us doubt.  I am with you 99% on Graendal.  The evidence is huge.  I am starting to let the Taim/Demandred thing in now though because if Taim is not Demandred, who the hell knows where/what Demandred has been doing up to that point in the book.  RJ has some leeway on that.

[Nostalgic Song]

I have changed my mind. I have concluded that the most likely/obvious killer is indeed Lanfear. For a long time I considered it to be Graendel, but we didn't know much about her then, and it wouldn't be an "obvious" conclusion. In the book, LoC, Lanfear had just "died", and wasn't Asmodean just thinking that he was safe from her now? I now truly believe that Aelfinn-land time flows faster then Randland time. I believe Lanfear was severed when she went through the doorway, and I believe she was killed by the Ael-Elfinn immediately because she is a Forsaken. She was brought back as Cyndane rather quickly by DO and the first thing she went to do was get her revenge on Asmo. (I'm sure Lanfear told DO that Amsodean is a traitor and was allowed to go to kill him.) She used the Mask of Mirrors so Amsodean would know who was killing him (Lanfear is an arrogant one. She likes having power to instill fear in people. She'd want Amso to know who was killing him.) Amsodean, feeling completely safe from her because she had just "died" a few days ago would've have been shocked, and knew he was about to die. I honestly believe all evidence ESPECIALLY RJ's "the killer should be obvious to the most casual reader" points to Lanfear.I don't think Graendal is at all an obvious candidate at THAT point in the story. I think that later in the books Graendel starts to seem like a more likely candidate, but in the end of book 5 there's little evidence pointing to her. Even though Lanfear was "dead" then, she's a Forsaken. How's and why's aren't as necessary for them since DO is bringing them back to life and everything. But if you have evidence to pove my theory wrong (I'm sure I've overlooked a few details) tell me. But I honestly believe that even if I'm off about how she did it, she still is the killer.

 

 

Can anyone tell me what the hell spigots/caudrens/washerwoman thing is? >_>; Unless those are code names for suspected killers I am confused.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Even though Lanfear was "dead" then, she's a Forsaken. How's and why's aren't as necessary for them since DO is bringing them back to life and everything.

 

Actually, the Dark One hadn't brought anyone back by the end of TFoH, which is the book in which the murder occurred, not LoC.

 

She was brought back as Cyndane rather quickly by DO and the first thing she went to do was get her revenge on Asmo.

 

Within hours?  Come on man ...

 

For a long time I considered it to be Graendel, but we didn't know much about her then, and it wouldn't be an "obvious" conclusion.

 

Yeah ... except that we knew she was in the middle of the Forsaken plot that framed the whole book in which the murder occurred.  ::)

 

[Nostalgic Song]

Even though Lanfear was "dead" then, she's a Forsaken. How's and why's aren't as necessary for them since DO is bringing them back to life and everything.

 

Actually, the Dark One hadn't brought anyone back by the end of TFoH, which is the book in which the murder occurred, not LoC.

 

She was brought back as Cyndane rather quickly by DO and the first thing she went to do was get her revenge on Asmo.

 

Within hours?  Come on man ...

 

For a long time I considered it to be Graendel, but we didn't know much about her then, and it wouldn't be an "obvious" conclusion.

 

Yeah ... except that we knew she was in the middle of the Forsaken plot that framed the whole book in which the murder occurred.   ::)

 

 

Well, it was worth a shot. I still believe Lanfear somehow managed to do the deed. Obviously, it's something that you can't figure out easily, look who wrote the book. ;) I'm sure we'll see some kinda twist in the end.

[Child of Lir]

 

Well, it was worth a shot. I still believe Lanfear somehow managed to do the deed. Obviously, it's something that you can't figure out easily, look who wrote the book. ;) I'm sure we'll see some kinda twist in the end.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself. The point of my post was, whilst most of us believe we know the answer (albeit that it's different for different people), the only person who actually does know is RJ. As I said earlier, he's left so many questions unanswered about the whole thing and the possible protaganists that it is unwise to be categorical in one's assertions. A great many people are going to be surprised by the answer - which of us they are remains to be seen.

 

Graendal's Favourite - sorry, I don't remember asking that question about Graendal and the cupboard etc., although it would have been at least two years ago, if not more, so I might have forgotten... Good for you if you are firm in your belief. I for one don't find her obvious or that there is any evidence pointing towards her other than circumstantial things, but we are all entitled to our own opinion and have seen that one person's definition of obvious is as clear as mud to another, so stand by your belief. I just advocate caution...

 

I will also eat my hat if I am wrong, so perhaps a new thread is required for hat recipes.  ;)

[Graendals favourite]

No worries  :D, the cupboard question was in the last major common Asmo thread on the previous version of Dragonmount, late summer early autumn I think, when everyone was basically waiting for KoD and had to pass the time somehow. I remember it because, though I was pretty new to the Graendal-camp, I thought I had a breakthrough going on, and realised I was going to have to think on it long as well as research whether anyone else had thought of this, and if I made progess at some point start arguing against all the other Graendalists. As I remember, Crystal there convinced me in the same thread that Graendal had motive enough to carry through the ambush given chance, after this I guessed I was on the right track. After all, arriving at Graendal is very straightforward once it is clear it was an ambush, all questions find answers as though through magic. I still have my original introduction-thread post, though it is very incomplete:

 

Asmodean's death, by Graendal. (Version from 2005, incomplete)

What Graendal did (the most likely scenario):

1.

Graendal has reason to be in the Palace. The four Forsaken plotted against each other even as they went along with the plan Lanfear introduced to them. There is reason to suspect even that Graendal was aware of the change of plans, i.e. that the attack would be on Rahvin instead. Whether or not Graendal was in the Palace when Rand attacked Rahvin, she was going to be there later, to find what happened (e.g. who killed who) and to rummage through Rahvin's apartments as she later did with Sammael.

 

2.

She does what she is there to do. Since the palace is near-empty, it is even easier to walk about, but masked with the power as Moghedien in Salidar, as long as she is careful not to draw attention,  there is no risk of detection. So she goes about removing evidence, checking if Rahvin had anything useful, and spying what happened.

 

3.

While walking the central parts of the Palace, near the throne room, she comes upon a view of a garden, where three people sat. One, Matrim Cauthon whom she recognises, one the Aiel woman who can channel quite strongly and who always seems to be near Rand, and playing the harp, Asmodean, whom she of course recognises immediately.

 

4.

Graendal realises that killing Asmodean would be a great trophy to present to the Dark One, very useful in becoming Nae'blis. Also, since Rand had yet again defeated another Forsaken, Rahvin, she knew Asmodean had to be eliminated before Rand grew any stronger. Graendal naturally wants Rand dead lest he threaten her Nae'blis chances. Lastly, Graendal must be aware that Asmodean knew Graendal was in Arad Doman. She will want to kill him before he could draw Rand to her there. So, she decides to kill him if possible. She sets herself to spying on the three from a place where she will not be noticed, just like Rand did.

 

5.

Asmodean suddenly stops playing, and wanders off out of the garden. Graendal follows him with the intention of killing him should the opportunity arise. To his doom, Asmodean walks further away from the fountain into more empty parts of the Palace.

 

6.

Further off, Asmodean finally approaches a small door, that obviously leads to a more secluded space behind it, with the obvious intention of opening it. This presents Graendal with a perfect ambush opportunity. She is wary of attacking him otherwise, since that might result in a duel, which would give her away. She cannot be sure, whatever Lanfear might have said, that he is shielded. Graendal Travels behind that door, before he can open it, and readies herself to attack Asmodean. She is able to use Asmodean's surprise at suddenly finding Graendal behind a random door, to eliminate the chance that Asmodean could fight back. For this reason, Graendal unmasks after Travelling behind that door. It is to be noticed that Travelling such a short distance, Graendal does not need to know the place she Travels from, as with Rand in Illian. Also, Aviendha is not so experienced a channeller that she should notice the channelling.

 

7.

When Asmodean comes through the door, Graendal allows him to recognise her, but without hesitation kills him with the most efficient weave she knows. It is to be remarked that even should Graendal have desired to use Compulsion, according to Sammael, a man holding saidin cannot be compelled. The surest way was to kill, and also the simplest. After this, if she did not balefire Asmodean, which is probable considering how the Forsaken thought of balefire before LoC, she was likely to have skimmed off with the body, though she could have remained, disposing off the body somehow. Soon after she was surprised at Moghedien's absence, talking to Demandred, and going to Shayol Ghul in whichever order those happened.

 

This is a likely chain of events. It should be noticed, that it allows a lot of freedom for how the events took place exactly.

 

 

What Asmodean did (the proof):

I.

The stroke of luck of Asmodean accidentally stumbling on the killer is too big, especially in such a good ambush position. The killer would have had to be pretty much prepared to kill everyone coming through the door (the whole time the killer was there). *

 

II.

The fact that the door was random, states that whoever the killer was, had to see Asmodean approaching it. Otherwise they might as well still be waiting there. This tells us that it had to be a woman** who could Travel and whom Asmodean recognised. No one else could have gotten there fast enough, except perhaps Myrddraal, and Myrddraal Asmodean wouldn't recognise as a person.

 

III.

That the killer (woman channeller whom Asmodean recognises and who can Travel = female Forsaken) saw Asmodean approaching the small door, she had to have at some point noticed him for the first time, and followed him. While it is possible that she saw Asmo while he was walking, more probable was that he was seen in the open place that could be seen from many places where he also played music a long time, and sat around interesting (= Rand-related) people.

 

IV.

For the female Forsaken to be in Caemlyn, she had to know there was something interesting there. But only Graendal, Lanfear and Moghedien could have known something particular had happened earlier that day. They had in fact known it would happen. However, Lanfear was trapped by the Finns and Moghedien by Nynaeve.  So it had to be Graendal who spotted Asmodean.

 

V.

Graendal indeed did have good reason to be in Caemlyn.

 

* Since we didn't see the killer, I cannot prove that Graendal hadn't slipped on her soap in Arad Doman in the morning, and while she was unconscious, an alien who looked like Asmodean's mother had teleported into that room, and killed Asmodean for fun.

 

** A man cannot Travel into the room Asmodean is approaching, when he can see him, because if Rand doesn't notice that, then Asmodean surely will. It is after all different for a male forsaken to perhaps not feel a woman channeling, than to somehow miss a man channelling 10-20 metres from him, and enough for a Gateway. The goose bump sense is limited in range.

 

This is proof of why things happened as in the scenario above, and why Graendal was the killer. It should be noticed here, that the proof can be used as an explanation for other things as well. For one it appears to be evident that Graendal knew a lot of what was happening in Cairhien. One can also draw the conclusion, that a possible explanation for Graendal saying to Sammael "Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too," is that Graendal was sure Moghedien had died because she was certain Moghedien would be scavenging there also that day, or meeting her to share information or the like.

 

 

Conclusion:

Graendal is proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. While it is not possible to go beyond that, it should be intuitively obvious that Graendal indeed did kill Asmodean, in a way very similar to the one in the scenario.

 

Mmm, that might be a good idea. Now there's two, at least someone is going to eat their hat ;D.

[Mr Ares]

I still think it is Taim. I still think Taim/Demandred are very interwoven.  When it comes to moving around, Taim is the best at just popping up.  Best male character who can open gateways while still picking his teeth.  Or it could be anyone.  We will see.

The problem with Taim is that the killing took place on the day Rand initially announced his amnesty. When Taim shows up in LOC several days (about 18 IIRC) have gone by, and Taim appears several years older because of the harsh conditions he has been living in. So for it to be him, he would need to show up in Caemlyn, get in the palace, and then go into the country and live in a ditch for a couple of weeks, when he could be taking advantage of the amnesty. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility, as he could have been ordered to live in a ditch for several days by his Darkfriend superiors, but how likely is that? also, he hadn't been introduced.

 

Egwene.

 

I have been certain also for the last 5 years. But the more we read this thread, the more it makes us doubt. I am with you 99% on Graendal.  The evidence is huge. I am starting to let the Taim/Demandred thing in now though because if Taim is not Demandred, who the hell knows where/what Demandred has been doing up to that point in the book. RJ has some leeway on that.

If your suggesting that Deamndred may have been involved, don't forget that he wasn't introduced until LOC, and in his first appearance Asmo's death is news to him. If you're not suggesting that, then just ignore this. And what Demandred is doing is still shrouded in mystery, almost as much as what he was doing at this point in the books.

 

And Child of Lir and GF, I hope neither of you will cheat on the hat eating front by purchasing or making a hat purely for the purpose of being eaten, for example out of cake. I demand that whichever of you is required to eat a hat should eat a real hat, the type of hat to be determined by a vote of board members. My vote would go to the top hat. It's got class. Now let's see if this can be side tracked into a discussion of what sort of hat should be eaten.

[lou]

i find it interesting that at first read that it was assumed that lanfear and moiraine survived the battle. i didnt get that impression at all.please, enlighten me with the insight, because i fail to see it.(this is not sarcasm, i am curious is all)

[Artred]

I haven't been on here in awhile and I didn't feel like reading all 187 pages, but has anyone considered Dashiva(Osan'gar)? He was not dead(Correct me if I'm wrong here, It's been about a year since I read through the first time, and I just finished reading 1-4, so I haven't came to the part where Asmo is murdered, yet. I can't remember if aran and osan are reborn as they are yet). But anywho, He was not dead(as Osan'gar) but not with Rand as Dashiva(I don't think, again correct me if I'm wrong.) So couldn't it be a possibility that he done it himself?

[BrainFireBob]

Asmo wouldn't recognize Dashiva unless he used a Mask of Mirrors to make himself resemble Aginor. The only reason to do this is a deliberate, cat playing with mouse cruelty only characteristic of Semirhage or Moridin (neither of whom did it) or someone using a psychological advantage ploy- only characteristic of Graendal.

[Majsju]

Osn'gar is not introduced yet, we first see him in LOC. So as far as we know at the moment Asmo dies, Aginor is stil very much dead.

[Mr Ares]

I find it interesting that at first read that it was assumed that Lanfear and Moiraine survived the battle. I didnt get that impression at all. Please, enlighten me with the insight, because I fail to see it.(this is not sarcasm, I am curious is all).

Apparently, some people assumed at the time that M&L were not dead, merely cut off from the world. Asmo's murder was taken by some as proof that they didn't die - they jumped to the immediate conclusion that this meant they were alive. While this was subsequently proved to be correct (of them being alive, if not of their involvement with the murder) it is very flimsy evidence at the time. This only goes on to prove my point that every possible killer is "intuitively obvious" to someone, and so saying "it was intuitively obvious to me" actually gets us no closer to an answer, and we must look for a different interpretation of RJ's words. At the time of the battle I didn't get the impression they were dead, but at the time I read the battle I had already read what the Guide had to say on Lanfear and the glossary entries to LOC and COS(naughty, naughty, I know *slaps own wrist*), which gave the impression of a "they must be dead" followed by subsequent reappearance. Sammael's death also gave that impression though, so, shows what I know. By the time I was disproved on Sammael I had finished the series, so knew I was right about the others. If I didn't have that measure of foreknowledge it probably would have seemed counterintuitive to me to assume that they were alive as of the end of FOH, although we did start getting hints to the contrary in later books. So really, it's just some people having completely different interpretatins of what they have read to other people.

[Child of Lir]

Actually, I knew pretty much straight away that Moiraine wasn't dead, simply because both she and Lan used the word "gone", rather than "dead". Now, although Lan believed she was dead, he didn't actually use that word so we couldn't later accuse RJ of lying to us through Lan and ask questions like "Well, if she wasn't dead, then why did Lan say she was?"

 

I know some people will say that's just semantics, but semantics are very important to RJ, as are his characters' misinterpretation of things, and it was enough to convince me she was alive...

 

Anyway, in real response to Mr Ares, I think a top hat is an excellent suggestion. They are quite hard though, so I suggest perhaps slow roasting or braising it - in claret of course - would be the best, perhaps accompanied by mashed potato to soak up the juices...

[Graendals favourite]

That sounds good. If the hat is very tough, one could try a stew recipe, too, something with potatoes and vegetables along with the hat.

[robcar71569]

I just started on this site but when I read about this specific topic I came up with a couple of conclusions.  One about what happened with Asmodean, I think he did die, but at the hands of one of the Forsaken's creations, the "thing" (I can't remember what it's called right now) that attacked Mat that was injured by his medallion.  The reason I believe this is because Asmodean didn't bother even trying to defend himself as if he knew it would do no good anyway.  The second conclusion I came to was about Moiraine and Lanfear.  If you all remember, in one of the previous books Min had a viewing on Thom where he pulled the jewel that Moiraine wears many times out of a fire.  This indicates to me that Thom plays a major role in bringing Moiraine back from the dwelling of the Aelfin/Eelfin.  I don't think RJ would give such a hint at that type of outcome without following through.  I also believe that Lanfear is also alive in that world though both MIGHT even be stilled from the amount of power involved when they went through the doorway.  Just food for thought there  ;)

[lou]

it was called a gholem, and it was a thought about 100 or so pages ago. the problem with this creature was it was not introduced at the time of asmo's demise. the killer has to be intuitively obvious ???

[Mr Ares]

I just started on this site but when I read about this specific topic I came up with a couple of conclusions.  One about what happened with Asmodean, I think he did die, but at the hands of one of the Forsaken's creations, the "thing" (I can't remember what it's called right now) that attacked Mat that was injured by his medallion.  The reason I believe this is because Asmodean didn't bother even trying to defend himself as if he knew it would do no good anyway.  The second conclusion I came to was about Moiraine and Lanfear.  If you all remember, in one of the previous books Min had a viewing on Thom where he pulled the jewel that Moiraine wears many times out of a fire.  This indicates to me that Thom plays a major role in bringing Moiraine back from the dwelling of the Aelfin/Eelfin.  I don't think RJ would give such a hint at that type of outcome without following through.  I also believe that Lanfear is also alive in that world though both MIGHT even be stilled from the amount of power involved when they went through the doorway.  Just food for thought there

Lanfear is not alive in the world of the Finn, she is free and reborn as Cyndane. We know Thom will play a large part in Moiraine's rescue because he, Mat and Noal all agreed to go and rescue her (just those 3). And, as Lou has alread pointed out, it wasn't the Gholam because what killed Asmo had to have been introduced as of the end of TFOH. Care to make another attempt? It's far from the worst opening we've seen someone make on the boards. It is at least well thought out, if lacking a few facts

[robcar71569]

I had a feeling a few months ago that Cyndane was Lanfear but having just started rereading for something like the 8th time, I had forgotten about cyndane at all.  Also now that you mention it I can see your point about Asmodean...

[Nelal Hurcran]

Am I the only one who thinks that this could make a great Clue edition?

 

("Greandal with bailfire in the pantry.")

 

Someone call Hasbro.

[bjclinton]

i haven't reread the series in a long time (just started again, but i'm only on TDR), but was SH introduced at this point? if so, that solves all of our problems:

 

it would explain how he could have appeared randomly- he has the ability to travel through shadows and seems to be able to find anyone he wants if they're a darkfriend

 

it would explain why asmo didn't even try to embrace the source...SH could have blocked his ability

 

it would also explain why noone felt anyone channeling

 

SH has powers that that other fades don't have- whats to stop him from destroying a weakened asmo that is training the Dragon Reborn and has effectively become a traitor to the DO? If you ask me, his reaction was the reaction of someone that got BUSTED!!! and who better to bust him than the hand of the dark one????

 

the more i think about it, his reaction- the one of surprise- seems to be the reaction that everyone has when they run into SH.....he just creeps up on you! thoughts?