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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Guest Egwene

one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

spigots or caudrens  

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  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28


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120 pages! Wow. This is a crazy popular topic of discussion I have learned since finding these boards.

 

I've read the books 3 or 4 times and always thought it was one of the Forsaken who did it. The thought of Moiraine or LF doing it has never even occured to me.

 

But then I've never cared at all. It's one of those (many) things in the books that didn't seem to matter. He needed to exit the storyline and so he did. I wonder if RJ was even sure who he had do it when he wrote it?

 

That's it! I know for sure who did it. RJ said it was obvious. It is. RJ killed Asmo :lol:

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Actually Lanfear has STATED her motive in the books. She specifically says that she will kill Asmodean once he has taught Rand enough. I think that there is about equal amounts of "invention" to get Lanfear out of Finnworld as there is for Graendal to be skulking around

 

She said that in a completely different context. When Lanfear said she would kill Asmo' date=' her plan to have Rand join her and take out all the other forsaken was still in play.

 

When Asmo dies, that plan is dead and buried, Lanfear thinks Rand has betrayed her with Aviendha, she has tried to kill him very recently, and as we see later in WH, her vacation in finnland has not cooled down her hatred for Rand one bit.

 

Asmo would at best be #3 on Lanfears list if she had the opportunity to go out on a killing spree, Rand and Avi are far, far above Asmo.[/quote']

 

Context does not matter much. Lanfear wanted to kill Asmodean after teaching Rand at the point at which he would be powerfull but still behind her. After he held her off at the docks, Rand was certainly at that point and if she wanted to kill Randstep 1 would be to make sure Asmodean was dead. Imprtantly though, her declaration goes a long way to the "obvious" argument that we all cling to.

 

Here's the thing. It may turn out to be Graendal. But to get to Graendal requires just as many shaky assumptions as it being Lanfear. I believe that most people immediately -first read- think Lanfear in that scene, not Graendal. She is purely a elimination suspect. But her being the killer also provides no dramatic punch, and keeping her identity secret does nothing to protect any suprises later in the story. But Lanfear does. I will believe it is Lanfear until Jordan tells me otherwise. And if he does I will be disappointed because the arguments and logic used for her being the killer are just mundane.

 

Couple interesting other points:

 

When I listened to the books the last time, I got the distinct impression that Sammael was the kille, and not Graendal.

 

If Taim were Demandred, he would be a logical and easy choice for the killer.

 

All arguments against either Moiraine (which I don't get-her letter I feel eliminates her) and Lanfear with the premise that they are dead make no sense whatsoever. We know that Moiraine survived. Lanfear died, but no where is it stated that she died in Finnland, how or when.

 

Also, time does not necessarily have to pass in the same way in Finnland. Lanfear could have been held for months in Finnland and left just a few minutes or hours later. It is consistent with many of the themes and constructs Jordan has used.

 

Final thing: I think that the story of what happens to Moiraine and Lanfear after the doorway is a critical piece of the overall narrative that can only be revealed towards the end. Since that narrative includes Lanfears escape, if she is the killer there is a lot of good reasons to not come out and say she is the one.

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Ah, but there you go Johnny. We know more about Lanfear at this point than we do about Moiraine. Lanfear has come back as Cyndane and in her POV she makes no mention of Asmodean or what occured after she was "held" by the Eelfin. The fact that she has made her reappearance kind of shakes the grounds that her revelation as the killer is what kept her from being revealed in the first place.

 

Moiraine on the other hand...the circumstances surrounding her predicament keep her in play.

 

As for the letter. Lots of people use the letter as a way to eliminate her because she supposedly capitulates and gives Rand permission to learn from Asmodean.

 

My only advice is to read the letter again. It says no such thing. Her comments really just point to the fact that Rand is going to do what he's going to do, and she might as well forgive him for it, because she supposes that it may be the only way. MAY BE.

 

Read the letter again.

 

If you do, it actually reinforces suspicion that she had Asmodean in mind even towards the end when she was ready to die on the docks.

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Hey guys I've been thinking, (dangerous I know) but Asmo...

 

well to start at the begining, I started my most recent re-read (so to speak) of the wheel of time by signing up to audible.com and getting the audiobooks, 2 a month, until i had the full set. I thought what the hey, i've got them on paper and my dyslexia makes it a pain in the arse to read sometimes so this way when i'm having a bad day i just have to pick up my ipod Smile anyway I digress, I just got up to asmo's death and I started thinking... Eurika!

 

Now this isn't a fully fleshed out theory, and someone may (and probably will) be able to pull a quote out of the air and blow my plan out of the water within 20 seconds of posting, but here goes.

 

To quote the WOT FAQ, the killer must meet the following criteria,

 

Means: he must be able to kill Asmo (a channeler) near-instantaneously

 

Motive: he must have a reason to want asmo dead

 

Opportunity: he must be able to be in the Caemlyn palace at the time of the murder

 

He must be a person who Asmodean recognized, who he didn't expect to see, and of whom he was terrified

 

He must be able to dispose of the body

 

He must know Asmodean's fate

 

There must be a reason why it's kept a secret, by the author and the killer

 

He must be "obvious" from the instant asmo died

 

_______________________________________________

 

Now lets start by saying that everyone points at the forsaken, or shadowspawn, or aes sedai, slayer or fain, but I can't remember seeing anyone point a finger at Rand!

 

Now lets start with point 1, Means...

 

Pretty easy, rand could balefire asmo in seconds, he could use as much power as he wanted too as... why not (demandred, samael etc can be ruled out because rand could sense if they used a lot of power near him, but if rand's the killer, why not just blast away for all he's worth)

 

Point 2, Motive...

 

Again, easy, lanfear is gone now, the leash that rand had around asmo's neck is gone. With lanfear out of the way rand would have to be always on his toes as asmo would gradually be getting stronger, and with him being so close all the time a knife in the back would be a permanent threat.

 

Point 3, Opportunity...

 

Erm, well we kinda know rand was about, nice easy one.

 

Point 4, Recognition...

 

Well asmo knows rand's face well enough, and if I saw the balefire weave pointing at me i'd be bloody terrified too!

 

Point 5, Must be able to dispose of the body...

 

*cough* balefire *cough*

 

Point 6, He must know asmodeans fate...

 

I can't remember a single point in the later books where in one of rand's POVs he's worried about asmo turning up again, he doesn't even think about him again! Rand never really trusted asmo, so even though he can worry about sammael or demandred, he never includes asmo as a potential threat. I can understand him not mentioning asmo to anyone but he doesn't even think about him again!

 

Point 7, Secrecy...

 

Nobody knew who asmo was, people may wonder why rand's gleeman vanished but rand wouldn't need to run around yelling "I killed asmodean!"

 

point 8, Obvious...

 

When you think about it, rand does make sense, we've seen him lots, he has every reason to kill him, the opertunity, and everything seems to match up!

 

enough of the forsaken said that rand killed asmo, maybe they were right?

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Guest Majsju

Did you by any chance miss that Rand has POVs where he wonders what happened to Asmo?

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in a word... yes :P

 

but even if there are quotes all over the place saying how rand didnt do it, it does look quite tidy :lol:

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Guest Egwene

Thanks for the effort, Slothman :D and thanks for the weblink you quoted. I have been thinking of audiobooks for ages... might follow you on that trail...

 

As for Rand being the killer... I just can't reconcile his persona with an assasination. If Rand wanted Asmo dead, he would kill him face to face and tell him what he had done that made up his mind on the matter.

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And the fact that Rand was off dealing with another Forsaken at the time.

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Guest cwestervelt
And the fact that Rand was off dealing with another Forsaken at the time.

 

He was not dealing with another Forsaken, he was meeting Bashere. Given how Rand was watching Mat and Aveindha in the garden when Bashere arrived, and Asmodean just left that same garden because Mat and Aviendha weren't appreciative of his musical contributions, it is safe to say that Rand was still meeting with Bashere when Asmodean was executed.

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oh yeah.... I've forgotten those little facts... well still Rand didn't do it. Why would he kill the only person that could teach him things from the AoL about channeling?

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You know i find this really funny, and have a feeling that RJ is going to reveal asmodeans death with just one sentence in the next book, like a POV of a character saying "thank god i killed Asmo", and thats it, no big reason, no big bang, excited to see that.

LAZ

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Guest cwestervelt
oh yeah.... I've forgotten those little facts... well still Rand didn't do it. Why would he kill the only person that could teach him things from the AoL about channeling?

 

How much did Rand really learn from Asmodean? It was only a couple months time, and lots of references to Lanfear choosing Asmodean because he wasn't a good teacher. Rand appears to have learned far more from Lews Therin.

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OK...completely new thought that I have never seen on the Asmodean killer:

 

What if he was not killed in the Palace at all. There is always a lot of assumptions about the body and cleanup etc....which generally leads to the use of balefire, but what if there was no need for cleanup because he was not there.

 

We know the 'finn can transport people out of their world, so it seems logical that they can transport people people TO their world.

 

What if, instead of some complicated story of how Lanfear got out and went to the Palace to kill Asmodean, blah blah, what we have is the Finn bringing Asmodean to their world.

 

One step through a door looking for a pantry, but instead of staying in the palace his step finishes in the Finn world staring straight at Lanfear, who he was sure was dead and was just thinking that.

 

This removes quite a bit of the difficulty and assumptions with Lanfear.

 

Just a new thought to throw out there, that is a possibility.

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I say it was Bella with the candle stick in the wine cellar. That would explain his surprise for sure. Not to mention that takes care of the cleanup... she... Ate him.

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How much did Rand really learn from Asmodean? It was only a couple months time, and lots of references to Lanfear choosing Asmodean because he wasn't a good teacher. Rand appears to have learned far more from Lews Therin.

 

I don't know what weves and exac things he learned from Asmodean but it's said that he gained significant skill during the time that Asmodean. I believe is was Asmodean that taught how to know if a woman was channeling. And the only way that he learns from Lew Therin is to let him take over. Rand definatley doesn't like that and fights it as much as possible. I don't think that there have been more than 1 or 2 times where that has happened because Rand fights it.

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he learn't some other quite useful stuff as well, like how to skim properly and how to make weaves invisible. I've always presumed Rand also learnt more about the forsaken and the Age of Legends which could be useful at some point. i think asmodean also could have taught him more about shadowspawn, such as gholam and darkhounds.

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Guest Egwene

hmmm....maybe we should start a petition and dump the hundreds of thousands of signatures on his doorstep :D

 

*notices that someone has voted for Moiraine and does a little happy dance*

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*notices that someone has voted for Moiraine and does a little happy dance*

It's nice that you're happy about that...but I'm pretty sure she was busy dealing with Lanfear. The portal they go through reminds me of the same place that Hopper warns Perrin about in the Wolfdream...so if it is there, how in the world did Moiraine get out?

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Guest Egwene

Treeofcalm, the door is the same one that Mat went through in Rhuidean, so we know what lies on the other side. If you have a look at the new Asmo thread over on the structured WoT board, it will give you the theories on why some of us think that Moiraine is a resonable suspect as well as of course those of the people that think it must have been Graendal.

 

Thanks everyone for still voting in this poll :P

 

Edir: For those interested in statistics, 26 votes where placed since the end of december. The votes were distributed as follows...

 

+ 15 Graendal

+ 3 Lanfear

+ 2 Moiraine

+ 3 Shadar Haran

+ 2 Moridin

+ 1 another forsaken

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Guest Fire Lord

I've voted, and for Moiraine of course, if only to make Egwene (boards, not books) smile and do a 'little happy dance...' :D

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