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Jonn, despite atrocious manners you've displayed in this thread, it seems you want to actually figure this out. So on Moiraine:

 

- How does she get there?

o Does she know anything about the Eels? She would have to know this before the night she goes to the Aels as the next day they go into the Waste.

o How does she get to treat with them (Lanfear and her blowing up their portal)?

o Is there enough time (several hours, Finn time could be normalish time, Mat mentions he was held too)?

o How are the Finn able to put her there?

 

- Why kill Amso?

o She seems resigned to him in her letter, she doesn't approve though.

o Why tell Rand to keep an eye on him if she has foreknowledge of taking him out? (Min viewing, prophecy, Aels' answers, Rings terangreal though knowledge gained there fades per Avienda.)

 

- How does she kill Asmo in a way that the "how and where" prevents DO from ressing him (not Balefire)?

o Probably the biggest sticking point. Mystery Blue weave we haven't seen? Moiraine did come up with Balefire, Keepings and a useful spying weave that we know of.

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Guest Majsju
Lanfear and Graendal...any of the Forsaken really would not prompt a question as to what was about to happen to him let alone who they were, and why they would be there.

"You?"

 

The question mark is not about what's going to happen, it's a sign of surprise at seeing that particular person in that particular place.

 

Now, look at what has just happened. There has just been a huge battle, yet another forsaken has died as a result of going up alone against Rand, the place is crowded with Aiel. Not exactly a place where anyone would expect to stumble upon a forsaken not even wearing a disguise. Especially not behind a door picked at random. Asmo would have been less surprised if he had found a forsaken waiting for him in his bedroom, or some other place where he can be expected to be at some point. But this is such a random encounter at such an odd time for him to be anything but surprised at seeing Graendal standing there.

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Lanfear and Graendal...any of the Forsaken really would not prompt a question as to what was about to happen to him let alone who they were, and why they would be there.

"You?"

 

The question mark is not about what's going to happen, it's a sign of surprise at seeing that particular person in that particular place.

 

Such reasoning works as well for Moiraine if not better even.

 

Whatever time to meet one of the Forsaken is most likely, the man was JUST THEN thinking about how the forsaken would love to kill him. He opens a door and one of the Forsaken is there...Surprise.

 

I somehow don't see him saying something dumb like "You?" after he just got done thinking about the Fosaken killing him at the first chance.

 

Frankly, the natural reaction would be more along the lines of:

 

There should be some wine- He took one step and stopped, the blood draining from his face. "Oh $#1+! No!"

 

Let's break his response down here.

 

First there's startlement mixed with a bit of shock because a) He's surprised to open the door to find someone right there, and b) He recognizes the person and they should't be there.

 

Next you have confusion represented by the question, "You?" This should be confusion over who he's seeing because the question is about the person NOT THE SITUATION. Startlement at running into someone has already been expressed by the blood draining from his face and him stopping abruptly.

 

Last, you have recognition of his doom with "No!" This is key as it is a sequence.

 

1 Startlement because of the incident (boo someone was behind the door) He took one step and stopped

2 Startlement because of recognition The blood drained from his face

3 Confusion "You?"

4 Recognition of doom "No!"

 

The fact that he was startled was a given. There's no need to elaborate that he was surprise at seeing someone behind that door. That was obvious when he's described as opening the door and then the blood draining from his face as he stopped. There's the surprise. His dialogue is separate from this surprise. He asks a question: "You?"

 

That's "You?" as in I'm surprised to see you, or I'm surprised that it's you behind this door. This rolls from recognition of the person which happened at the same time or a split second after he sees the person. The dialogue, though, expresses confusion more than surprise. There is a difference.

 

Simple surprise could be expressed by "You!", with just the exclamation, but intstead there is a question mark as if he's at first unsure what this person's intention is, or why/how they are there. For one of the Forsaken, there should be little question. They are one of the Forsaken and they're there to kill him.

 

Finally (this is important) recognition that he's about to die comes AFTER with,"No!" He's startled, then scared, then confused THEN he knows that he's going to die. He doesn't know he's going to die until he says "No!"

 

Now, look at what has just happened. There has just been a huge battle, yet another forsaken has died as a result of going up alone against Rand, the place is crowded with Aiel. Not exactly a place where anyone would expect to stumble upon a forsaken not even wearing a disguise. Especially not behind a door picked at random. Asmo would have been less surprised if he had found a forsaken waiting for him in his bedroom, or some other place where he can be expected to be at some point. But this is such a random encounter at such an odd time for him to be anything but surprised at seeing Graendal standing there.

 

I have to disagree with you here. Asmodean was just thinking about how dangerous his situation is at the moment. He was worrying over it just then. He knows he's in danger, in fact VERY aware that he could be killed at any moment.

 

You said it yourself. There was just a big battle and while he tries to appear casual, he's a nervous wreck, looking for some wine to take the edge off. He'd probably give a start if he opened that door and a Tinker was standing there.

 

If instead it were a Forsaken, having just been thinking about them and how they'd kill him on sight, why would he ask a question? He recognized them, but surely if it was a Forsaken there is no question. He's just dead. He'd know it too. Immediately. "No!" would be the first thing he would say.

 

Now there's the second part of your scenario. How to explain the randomness of the encounter. Graendal skulking about the site of a major battle with some not so negligible channelers around, with nothing to gain from doing so...That's TOO random.

 

Rahvin had no angreal or terangreal that he advertised. He pretty much implied that anyone sneaking about his territory was asking to get melted. Why would anyone want to go to Caemlyn to risk looking around? No one but Moghedien suspected that Rand would attack Caemlyn. How can you explain Graendal's random appearance there? She couldn't have had orders, not that soon. Even so, no one tipped off Rahvin or Sammael, so why would Graendal be the only one to get the order to go to Caemlyn just to kill Asmodean?

 

If she could get that close to kill Asmodean, she could have taken a shot at Rand as well.

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" was given after the murder and to Demandred first. So, there was no restriction on killing Rand before that. Demandred had called the meeting after his trip to Shatol Ghul so that he could spread the Dark One's word. No evidence to support that Graendal received such orders from anyone besides Demandred himself.

 

It's just not working with the timeline to have Graendal getting orders to seek out Asmodean especially, and not Rand. It also makes no sense for her to have any motivation to decide to do it on her own incidentally or to even know where to find Asmodean. The meeting was way too random for it to be an accident, and that still begs the question why she was in Caemlyn in the first place. If she could figure out Rand would be in Caemlyn, she could have tipped off Rahvin and or Sammael and Rand would have been toast.

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So moiraine used the power as a weapon, aginst the 3 oaths (asmodean might not be a nice person, but he was not a df/forsaken any longer)

 

Well, if so, for there to be even a chance of it to be moiraine, when she apears again she must be free of the 3 oaths.

 

//dyring

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Jonn, despite atrocious manners you've displayed in this thread, it seems you want to actually figure this out.

 

Admittedly, I can get a bit worked up, but that's how it goes in a debate sometimes. If something doesn't make sense to me or if I think it's wrong, I'm going to be honest about it. At times I'll even go on the attack to break down a statement. I'm not the kind of person who is nice all the time. It's fine to disagree with me, but please make sense if you are going to do so. If you're not making sense to me, I will tell you so and why.

 

I'm not going to make a fake comment, just to appease everyone...

 

So on Moiraine:

 

- How does she get there?

o Does she know anything about the Eels? She would have to know this before the night she goes to the Aels as the next day they go into the Waste.

o How does she get to treat with them (Lanfear and her blowing up their portal)?

o Is there enough time (several hours, Finn time could be normalish time, Mat mentions he was held too)?

o How are the Finn able to put her there?

 

The Finn can do a lot of things. They can give you abilities. they can provide you with things. They can put you in places, in certain situations. It all depends on the bargain you make. This is all in Shadow Rising when Mat makes his bargain.

 

Time, I would guess, works differently with the Finns. In Tear, the Doorway there allowed for three different people to enter it at separate times and never did those people run into one another. They didn't really spend a long time in there though. I suspect that any alternate reality is going to have time anomalies. There really is no limit to how time could work in this situation, except perhaps Moiraine being place back in time perhaps. This isn't the case though, as Asmodean's murder took place after she and Lanfear disappeared.

 

There is no indication of the Finns feeling anything about the doorway being destroyed. As it stands, it's simply a means for people in Rand's reality to visit theirs. It is rather hard for humans or anyone to get there, so how are they to get people there to make a bargain? They have treaties in play that stop them from just coming out and snatching people I would imagine. Someone has to have the knowledge and desire to treat with them in order to take the next step and make an actual visit. As it was, not that many were visiting them anyhow so I don't suppose losing the doorway would be too much of a bar to dealing with Moiraine. There is also the Tower of Ghengei for humans to come to them. Theres nothing that says that they are unable to come to us whenever they choose. The source of ther power, I imagine, comes from their realm, so why would they stray too far from their home? It doesn't mean they cannot touch us though, or affect us shoud they choose to. Mat hanging from Avendesora and Hopper and Birgitte's warnings about the Tower of Ghengei imply that the Finn can put you in danger even outside of their realm.

 

It is rather assured that Moiraine must know somethig of the Eelfin. She seemed to know something of the Aelfin when she was in the Stone. She also went through the Rings within Rhuidean that show her things in her future. Some things she can remember, many things she forgets. Anyhow *spoiler*

 

She reveals in KOD that she indeed does see things within the realm of the Finns.

 

How did she get there? Any number of ways that she could have appeared outside while still being bound. Ishamael proved that this concept shouldn't be outrageous. The most logical guess is that she wished to appear at the scene, but chose to stay or return to the Finn realm as part of the price.

 

In Shadow Rising, Mat learns quite harshly what happens when you fail to bragain with a price in mind. The price must be equal to what is given most likely. Moiraine's return to reality from Finnworld is most likely a wish she'd rather not pay for at the moment.

 

- Why kill Amso?

o She seems resigned to him in her letter, she doesn't approve though.

o Why tell Rand to keep an eye on him if she has foreknowledge of taking him out? (Min viewing, prophecy, Aels' answers, Rings terangreal though knowledge gained there fades per Avienda.)

 

- How does she kill Asmo in a way that the "how and where" prevents DO from ressing him (not Balefire)?

o Probably the biggest sticking point. Mystery Blue weave we haven't seen? Moiraine did come up with Balefire, Keepings and a useful spying weave that we know of.

 

Balefire seems likely, as the scene mirrors that of when she killed Be'lal with balefire.

 

She says leading up to her disappearance and even afterwards in the letter in KOD, that some things she can remember, and some things have gone away. Remember, she has seen every choice and every outcome in her life's paths. It's impossible to remember them all. Some things must be. Some things might be or could be. Asmodean's fate may be one of those things that are very fragile, and it's not always guaranteed to turn out the way she saw it. Hence, she must be very careful about what she reveals in such situations. Certain bits of information must be revealed in a certain way or else things could change and not for the better.

 

Why warn Rand to keep an eye on Asmodean? Well..First, he's one of the Forsaken. That should be obvious why she would warn Rand about him. She knows who Asmodean is. Also, she may not be absolutely sure how things will turn out with Asmodean and Rand more specifically. Again, the fragments she saw, must have varied greatly. Again this ties in with her comment in her first letter to Rand. Nothing in that letter absolves her of her motive to kill Asmodean. She simply absolves Rand of taking him in in the first place. She promised to kill Rand first before letting the Shadow have him, way back in the eye of the World. Her feelings are most likely the same. She is Aes Sedai, and that was the truth of the matter to her. She said that she cannot approve, and most likely that is a sign that she would do something about Master Natael as soon as she could manage it, and after she gets rid of the primary threat of Lanfear.

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So moiraine used the power as a weapon, aginst the 3 oaths (asmodean might not be a nice person, but he was not a df/forsaken any longer)

 

Well, if so, for there to be even a chance of it to be moiraine, when she apears again she must be free of the 3 oaths.

 

//dyring

 

The 3 Oaths depend on what the person who is bound to them believes. If Moiraine believed that Jasin Natael was one of the Forsaken (which he still was despite what he would have people believe) then attacking him would be as easy for her to do as when she attacked Aginor and Be'lal. If she believed it, then she can act.

 

If you've read Knife of Dreams, then you know how easy it is for an Aes Sedai to convince herself of something.

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Thou I would be of the belief, that she´d have acted before if she truly believed the bard to still be a forsaken. Considering the effort she´s put into finding the dragon, and the custom she´s broken before when she felt it needed(balefire for one, but there are lots of them), She would have killed him before if she still believed him a df.

 

I don´t have that book here, but, If my memory is correct, one of her quotes is something to the effekt that he is still the man who sold himself to the shadow. If she thought he was still serving the do as opposed to still being able to do atrocities to serve himself, she´d said so in the letter methink. She´s rather frank with some other things there afterall.

 

 

//dyring

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Guest cwestervelt

Here it is again...

 

Moiraine was barred from taking previous action against Asmodean by the visions she was shown in Rhuidean. The scene at the docks needed to play out precisely. Any mistakes, or alterations, and Rand either died, or became Lanfear's love slave.

 

Moiraine knew from her vision in Rhuidean who needed to be present at the docks. There are at least 2 ways we know this to be true. The first is that, prior to going to fetch Rand, she had already requested the necessary horses be saddled. She singles out Mat with a "just in case" type comment, but implicit in the statement is that Asmodean's horse was readied as well. The second reason is the nature of the visions she was show in Rhuidean. We know that they show the results of all decisions that are made, regardless of how unlikey. For those visions to be of any value or accuracy as a guide they would need to show the people present during the event. Moiraine would have been shown Asmodean's presence at the docks. If Asmodean were unable to attend, the scene could not have occurred. That would either make one of the other 2 possibilities a default, or leave everything to random chance. Those are not options Moiraine would have been willing to choose.

 

That Asmodean's presense was required is further evidenced by the fact that Rand was talking to Asmodean, and not Moiraine, when Lanfear blew the wagon to bits.

 

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 52: "Choices"

"Well, I mean to find out now. Natael, go tell Bael I'll be with him in--"

 

At the otherend of the line, the side of Kadere's wagon exploded, splinters scything down Aiel and townsfolk.

 

We know from her letter to Rand that she only knew one other thing that might happen after the docks, and that it didn't concern Rand. Knife of Dreams reveals that this "one small thing" is most likely her possible rescue by Thom Merillin. She doesn't dare do anything about Asomean before the docks, and she doesn't know that she will be able to anything about him after the docks. All she can do is warn Rand to be careful.

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Admittedly, I can get a bit worked up, but that's how it goes in a debate sometimes...

You can be considerate of the person who you feel is misreading or whatever, it's probably stated in the board FAQ to do so.

 

The Finn can do a lot of things. They can give you abilities. they can provide you with things. They can put you in places, in certain situations. It all depends on the bargain you make. This is all in Shadow Rising when Mat makes his bargain.

There are no examples of giving abilities. They gave Mat memories, presumably from those who had entered Eelfinn-land in the past (either their real memories or Finn visions of possible futures for them). Jordan mentions that they can drop you off in different worlds, not that they can put them into any given place in that world. His QotW reads as him trying to lower expectations of what the Finn can do.

 

Time, I would guess, works differently with the Finns. In Tear, the Doorway there allowed for three different people to enter it at separate times and never did those people run into one another. They didn't really spend a long time in there though.

Spatially it's weird--look back and a doorway you just walked through is gone. Time...I don't think we know enough to make a determination.

 

There is no indication of the Finns feeling anything about the doorway being destroyed. As it stands, it's simply a means for people in Rand's reality to visit theirs. It is rather hard for humans or anyone to get there, so how are they to get people there to make a bargain? They have treaties in play that stop them from just coming out and snatching people I would imagine. Someone has to have the knowledge and desire to treat with them in order to take the next step and make an actual visit. As it was, not that many were visiting them anyhow so I don't suppose losing the doorway would be too much of a bar to dealing with Moiraine. There is also the Tower of Ghengei for humans to come to them. Theres nothing that says that they are unable to come to us whenever they choose. The source of ther power, I imagine, comes from their realm, so why would they stray too far from their home? It doesn't mean they cannot touch us though, or affect us shoud they choose to. Mat hanging from Avendesora and Hopper and Birgitte's warnings about the Tower of Ghengei imply that the Finn can put you in danger even outside of their realm.

We have no idea that they aren't irate about the door being crashed. They like having people stop in, now it's likely that there won't be even so few visitors as they've had. Personally, I suspect that the doorway terangreal are part of the bargain in some fashion, but there's no support for/against that in the books.

 

It is rather assured that Moiraine must know somethig of the Eelfin. She seemed to know something of the Aelfin when she was in the Stone. She also went through the Rings within Rhuidean that show her things in her future. Some things she can remember, many things she forgets. Anyhow *spoiler*

 

She reveals in KOD that she indeed does see things within the realm of the Finns.

 

How did she get there? Any number of ways that she could have appeared outside while still being bound. Ishamael proved that this concept shouldn't be outrageous. The most logical guess is that she wished to appear at the scene, but chose to stay or return to the Finn realm as part of the price.

Aes Sedai studied the Aelfinn doorway, that's how Rand find out about it. At the time I don't know if there even was an Eelfinn mention outside of Birgitte.

 

In Shadow Rising, Mat learns quite harshly what happens when you fail to bragain with a price in mind. The price must be equal to what is given most likely. Moiraine's return to reality from Finnworld is most likely a wish she'd rather not pay for at the moment.

Well Moiraine does have knowledge of Manatheron, so she might know about Tower of Ghenjei. The Fox door passed out of knowledge though.

 

Balefire seems likely, as the scene mirrors that of when she killed Be'lal with balefire.

Doesn't address Jordan's where and how, both being important. This is the sticking point with any theory, unfortunately, so far as we know, Balefire works the same in TaR and real world...it's tough to assign a where component to it that matters (balefired in the junk?) ;)

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Admittedly, I can get a bit worked up, but that's how it goes in a debate sometimes...

 

You can be considerate of the person who you feel is misreading or whatever, it's probably stated in the board FAQ to do so

 

See, that's an example right there of editing a statement and then going off.

 

Again, I would rather be honest than to sugar-coat my feelings about things. I am about as considerate as the person I'm talking to most of the time. If someone gets short with me, gets rude, I fire back, man. I'm not going to smile and joke around with someone who thinks they can be condescending towards me. Essentially, that is being considerate. I consider how I'm being treated and act accordingly.

 

The Finn can do a lot of things. They can give you abilities. they can provide you with things. They can put you in places, in certain situations. It all depends on the bargain you make. This is all in Shadow Rising when Mat makes his bargain.

 

There are no examples of giving abilities. They gave Mat memories, presumably from those who had entered Eelfinn-land in the past (either their real memories or Finn visions of possible futures for them). Jordan mentions that they can drop you off in different worlds, not that they can put them into any given place in that world. His QotW reads as him trying to lower expectations of what the Finn can do.

 

Gaining the memories of master generals is not gaining abilities? What we know about the limitations of the Eelfin is well...limited. A lot of the statements that RJ has made seem counter-intuitive to what we've seen. RJ also mentions that the Finn cannot affect the outside world at all, yet, they have a tendency to hang people from trees and let people out of their realm with tools to affect the world outside. So, which is true?

 

Time, I would guess, works differently with the Finns. In Tear, the Doorway there allowed for three different people to enter it at separate times and never did those people run into one another. They didn't really spend a long time in there though.

 

Spatially it's weird--look back and a doorway you just walked through is gone. Time...I don't think we know enough to make a determination.

 

We can go by what we've seen already in the books. That's a big deal to me when it comes to theories. If there is some precedent set, we can look at those as guidelines.

 

the precedent set in this case is based on Mat's trip to Finnworld and the trips made in Tear.

 

Based on those encounters it's quite apparent that there is time to make a deal and gain something within a few hours...or a few days. There is a workable range, and it allows for a short transaction as easily as a long one.

 

There is no indication of the Finns feeling anything about the doorway being destroyed. As it stands, it's simply a means for people in Rand's reality to visit theirs. It is rather hard for humans or anyone to get there, so how are they to get people there to make a bargain? They have treaties in play that stop them from just coming out and snatching people I would imagine. Someone has to have the knowledge and desire to treat with them in order to take the next step and make an actual visit. As it was, not that many were visiting them anyhow so I don't suppose losing the doorway would be too much of a bar to dealing with Moiraine. There is also the Tower of Ghengei for humans to come to them. Theres nothing that says that they are unable to come to us whenever they choose. The source of ther power, I imagine, comes from their realm, so why would they stray too far from their home? It doesn't mean they cannot touch us though, or affect us shoud they choose to. Mat hanging from Avendesora and Hopper and Birgitte's warnings about the Tower of Ghengei imply that the Finn can put you in danger even outside of their realm.

 

 

We have no idea that they aren't irate about the door being crashed. They like having people stop in, now it's likely that there won't be even so few visitors as they've had. Personally, I suspect that the doorway terangreal are part of the bargain in some fashion, but there's no support for/against that in the books.

 

Yes, exactly. So, there's really no point in arguing whether or not they would care. A bargain is a bargain. If Moiraine indeed made a bargain, the Finn may or may not add the damage to the door to the price paid. No way of knowing that yet so there's little point in pondering it right now.

 

It is rather assured that Moiraine must know somethig of the Eelfin. She seemed to know something of the Aelfin when she was in the Stone. She also went through the Rings within Rhuidean that show her things in her future. Some things she can remember, many things she forgets. Anyhow *spoiler*

 

She reveals in KOD that she indeed does see things within the realm of the Finns.

 

How did she get there? Any number of ways that she could have appeared outside while still being bound. Ishamael proved that this concept shouldn't be outrageous. The most logical guess is that she wished to appear at the scene, but chose to stay or return to the Finn realm as part of the price.

 

Aes Sedai studied the Aelfinn doorway, that's how Rand find out about it. At the time I don't know if there even was an Eelfinn mention outside of Birgitte.

 

In Shadow Rising, Mat learns quite harshly what happens when you fail to bragain with a price in mind. The price must be equal to what is given most likely. Moiraine's return to reality from Finnworld is most likely a wish she'd rather not pay for at the moment.

 

Well Moiraine does have knowledge of Manatheron, so she might know about Tower of Ghenjei. The Fox door passed out of knowledge though.

 

You've forgotten her trip to Rhuidean?

 

Balefire seems likely, as the scene mirrors that of when she killed Be'lal with balefire.

 

Doesn't address Jordan's where and how, both being important. This is the sticking point with any theory, unfortunately, so far as we know, Balefire works the same in TaR and real world...it's tough to assign a where component to it that matters (balefired in the junk?) ;)

 

Asmodean was cut off from the Dark One, so he cannot be claimed as easily. He'd have to be in a particular place at a particular time for the Dark One to make a grab at him the normal way.

 

That's the "where".

 

The "how"... Again, my guess is balefire.

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Guest Majsju
Simple surprise could be expressed by "You!", with just the exclamation, but intstead there is a question mark as if he's at first unsure what this person's intention is, or why/how they are there. For one of the Forsaken, there should be little question. They are one of the Forsaken and they're there to kill him.

 

You found the key without realizing it. "Or how/why they are there".

 

Why are they there? A forsaken would not be there to kill him, as they would have no way of knowing that he would stroll off at that particular moment, then pick that particualr door at random. If a forsaken were there with the purpose to kill him, they'd be waiting in his bedroom or somewhere else where they knew they would eventually find him.

 

4 Recognition of doom "No!"

 

Or a start of a plea. "No! Please don't kill me, I can explain..." Connect this with his story about the man he saw falling off a cliff. He knows there's nothing he can say that will save him, but he will try anyway. Only, Graendal doesn't wait for him to say more than "No!"

 

Now there's the second part of your scenario. How to explain the randomness of the encounter. Graendal skulking about the site of a major battle with some not so negligible channelers around, with nothing to gain from doing so...That's TOO random.

 

Rahvin had no angreal or terangreal that he advertised. He pretty much implied that anyone sneaking about his territory was asking to get melted. Why would anyone want to go to Caemlyn to risk looking around? No one but Moghedien suspected that Rand would attack Caemlyn. How can you explain Graendal's random appearance there? She couldn't have had orders, not that soon. Even so, no one tipped off Rahvin or Sammael, so why would Graendal be the only one to get the order to go to Caemlyn just to kill Asmodean?

 

Who knows why forsaken do some of the things they do? Graendal would have little to fear from eventual traps set by Rahvin, if there's been a battle most of them should have gone off by then. And we've seen both in the attack on Rahvin and the attack on Sammael that once a trap has gone off it must be reset. And she has little to fear from other channelers, since she can mask her ability. None except Rand and Asmo could possibly recognize her, and the location indicates that she's trying to stay far away from where those two can be expected to be.

 

If she could get that close to kill Asmodean, she could have taken a shot at Rand as well.

 

Of course. The guy who just toasted Rahvin. The guy who defeated Ishy three times. Of course Graendal would jump on him and think she would do better.

 

It's just not working with the timeline to have Graendal getting orders to seek out Asmodean especially, and not Rand. It also makes no sense for her to have any motivation to decide to do it on her own incidentally or to even know where to find Asmodean. The meeting was way too random for it to be an accident, and that still begs the question why she was in Caemlyn in the first place. If she could figure out Rand would be in Caemlyn, she could have tipped off Rahvin and or Sammael and Rand would have been toast.

 

She could have tipped off rahvin, but why would she? If Rahvin wins, the Dragon Reborn is dead, and their job would be much easier. If Rand wins, well that's one strong competitor out of the way. The forsaken are not exactly friends, if she can have Rahvin killed without having to lift a finger, no way she would interfere unless there was something to gain from it.

 

The Finn can do a lot of things. They can give you abilities. they can provide you with things. They can put you in places, in certain situations. It all depends on the bargain you make. This is all in Shadow Rising when Mat makes his bargain.

 

Where do you get that from? It's not in the books, not in any interview with RJ. The only time we've seen them "put" someone in some place was when they hung Mat, which was only a few meters from the doorway. Ok, so they can walk outside for a few moments.

 

But to have Moiraine as the killer, they would need an ability that has not even been hinted at: the ability to teleport a person to a particular place, and then teleport them back again.

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On Jonn's last response:

 

Let's start at the beginning. Mat's taveran, you can't automatically take what happens to him as typical. The only firsthand view into FinnLand is from him, with a touch from Rand, who's an even worse example of a typical Finn experience. I find it probable that his taveraness shows only in his unwittingly making a bargain with the Foxes though, the Snake trip...well the place was falling apart from both of them being there at the same time (taveran).

 

The important thing about both Finn is their Treaty, and what else it could entail besides the ground rules from getting wishes or answers. I submit that Lanfear and Moiraine going through the doorway together is abnormal, melting it certainly is. That's why I think it important to establish whether or not the Foxes will care about this, and I wonder if the Treaty isn't tied to the Doorways in some fashion, though they aren't the only way to get to Finnland.

 

Mat's memories are also not straightforward--he had some of them before he went into Rhuidean. They're not solely from the Foxes.

 

My point about Moiraine is that what she knows about the Foxes she needed to know before they left Tear. In Tear, I imagine she looked up what was available about the Snake doorway before going through, but what she shares says comes from Aes Sedai study of that door. It's not that implausible that she knows something of the Foxes, but there's not much she can pick up outside the Rings, and she says there's not much she remembers after the Docks in her letter. (Moiraine's days of having knowledge from nowhere hopefully ended in tDR.)

 

Jordan's been funny about the Black Cords. Presumably they have to do with Taint protection, but I don't think he's allowed that they do much else. They aren't necessary for Transmigration, he made that clear. That's why I don't think you've expressed a good answer to the how and why of Asmo's death yet that satisfies RJ's latest criteria.

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Guest cwestervelt

RJ has implied that the cords do more than that, including allowing the Dark One to know when the Foresaken are using the One Power and maybe what they were doing with it. That was part of the reason RJ gave for Aginor's desire to get the Eye when he was already protected from the Taint. It isn't unreasonable to suspect that DO can also tell where the Foresaken are and if they are alive or not.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

Week 20 Question: Why was Aginor so interested in the Eye of the World? He could channel clean Saidin anyway so it shouldn't have been an issue?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: He was able to channel clean saidin, true, but only through the "filter" which had been provided by the Dark One just a short time previously, which meant the Dark One would be aware of him channeling wherever he was. Remember, Aginor was the creator of the Trollocs; he is quite able to reason things out clearly, at least in a scientific sense. Also, he wasn't certain whether or not the Dark One also would know what he was doing when he channeled, too. For someone as secretive, competitive, and generally untrustworthy as the one of the Forsaken, the Eye of the World amounted to a valuable asset if it could be secured. To put it simply, Aginor saw a means of channeling without the Dark One looking over his shoulder, and maybe a way to increase his own power at the expense of those who didn't have that advantage. Balthamel might well have been for the long drop, administered by Aginor, if things hadn't worked out differently.

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Guest Majsju

On the other hand...

 

Tamyrlin: I’m trying to verify Rand’s impression he has at the end of book four, regarding the connection he cuts of Asmodean to the Dark One. He seemed to believe it was the connection directly from that individual to the Dark One. So what I am wondering is, is that connection key to transmigration?

 

Jordan: No, because what you are thinking of wasn’t a connection, Rand thought it was.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

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I'm quite tired of the Asmodean topic, but still... RJ said it should be obvious to us to know who had killed him. I may be sounding absurd, but it was Mazrim Taim. Think - we know that he's a 'bad' guy, he arrived just after Asmo died and the main thing - Asmo was plainly surprised when he met an old 'acquaintance'. :? that should sound obvious

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I've got a very wild guess, but I just re-read tFoH and I was thinking about how RJ said Asmodean can't be resurrected because of how and where he died. Nynaeve had Moghedien on a leash in TAR right before Asmo died, do you think maybe Nynaeve did it after she made Mog drink the forkroot and wake up? I know, logically, there's alot of Nynaeve POV later on that she should have at least thought about it somewhere, but like I said, it's a WILD guess.

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Guest Majsju
I've got a very wild guess, but I just re-read tFoH and I was thinking about how RJ said Asmodean can't be resurrected because of how and where he died. Nynaeve had Moghedien on a leash in TAR right before Asmo died, do you think maybe Nynaeve did it after she made Mog drink the forkroot and wake up? I know, logically, there's alot of Nynaeve POV later on that she should have at least thought about it somewhere, but like I said, it's a WILD guess.

 

Well, for starters there's the tiny detail of Nynaeve not knowing how to Travel at this point, so it would have been physically impossible for her to get to Caemlyn and back in a few hours.

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Guest Egwene

Glad to see people are still voting and also posting... the view counter seems to indicate, that whilst some are bored with this discussion... there are still plenty of people that check out the latest thoughts that are being put about.

 

Cybertrolloc, I don't see any problem with putting Moiraine with the Foxes without much knowledge. If she had been in Mat's shoes... she wouldn't have just babbled along. She would have been extremly careful with every word she said and would have weighed up the implications of the responses. I am sure that as you read the section, you too could see what Mat didn't wait to figure out. I am sure Moiraine would only have needed one 'Done' to work out how to phrase things here...

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I don't see any problem with Narg surviving his wounds, learning to channel, having a reason to kill Asmodean and being able to find out where Asmodean is. Case closed ;)

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I use to firmly believe it was Taim, but that was when I still believed that Taim was Demandred. Now that we know he isn't (which BTW was really stupid of RJ, it made so much sense) I just can't buy the idea that Taim is a powerful enough darkfriend that he would go after Asmodean to keep him from talking. There are so many potential flaws that it just sounds hollow to me.

 

As for Graendal, I have the same basic problem. I just don't buy the idea that:

A) She was anywhere in the vicinity of the Dragon Reborn while he was going postal on Rahvin. She's way too cautious for that.

B) She cared about getting rid of Asmodean at all.

C) She would hide in a closet waiting for him to show up.

 

It just plain doesn't match up with her character in my eyes. So for me, the only person that still makes sense is Lanfear.

 

The unfortunate point about her being in Finnland is hard to refute, but I'm willing to believe that the 'finns have more power than has been shown to this point. I know there's no evidence, but it seems a lot cooler to me. And there's no one that wanted Asmodean dead to anywhere near the same degree that Lanfear did. I just don't think anyone else would go to all the trouble.

 

I imagine Lanfear in Finnland, really pissed off, and saying (without realizing the consequences) that she wished she could kill Asmodean. *poof* She's in a closet, surprises the hell out of Asmo and balefires him, and just when she thinks it can't get any better, *poof* she's back in Finnland and gets killed for their price.

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1st, (if I remember right) Finnland is not for wishes. They answer 3 questions. 2nd, Moiraine warned of harshness for questions that touch the shadow...Lanfear is the shadow for all practical purposes. I'm sure the Finns dealt with her swiftly. And, Moiraine wouldnt be allowed to get wishes or ask questions since she was already been there once.

 

I really need to get my books out of storage.

 

I believe Lanfear did something to Asmo after his power got restricted so she could find him anywhere. She point blank said she would kill him if he became too close to Rand. So everything leads to her doing it.

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Guest cwestervelt

The Aelfinn (Stone of Tear Doorway) answer three questions. The Eelfinn (Rhuidean Doorway) grant 3 wishes.

 

Asking the Aelfinn questions concerning the Shadow can have dire consequences. There isn't anything that says the same is true with the Eelfinn. When dealing with the Finns you can't assume that what applies with one group is true with the other. That was the mistake Mat made when going through the Doorway in Rhuidean, and he almost died for it.

 

The Eelfinn did not deal with Lanfear quickly. From her later PoV as Cyndane, we know that she was held by them for some time before she died and became available for resurrection. I suspect that she ended up dead because, like Mat, she didn't know the rules and failed to make a good bargain, but we don't know for certain that it was the Finn's that killed her.

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Guest Egwene

wow... 98 pages!! And Moiraine has picked up another vote!! YES!!

 

well, if you haven't already... please do vote in the poll, even if you aren't posting. Thank you. :P 8)

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wow... 98 pages!! And Moiraine has picked up another vote!! YES!!

 

. :P 8)

 

Yeah but I can't believe that Shadar Haran has so many votes. He didn't even freaking exist until book 6 people...And why would Asmodean address a myrdraal as "You?" when Demandred had never seen him before, a book later?

 

Basic logic eliminates this guy. It goes to show how either confused or cluless people are regarding the topic.

 

To me, the only people who can make any kind of sense are Lanfear, Graendal or Moiraine.

 

Moiraine just feels like the right answer. Graendal is pretty bleh, thematically and dramatically. Lanfear, although a nice twist, has all but eliminated herself by her appearance as Cyndane and her lack of mention of having a shot at Rand and settling on Asmodean instead.

 

We'll have an answer by the last page of the last book though.

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