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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Salidar


bigWalt
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Can somebody explain to me why in Salidar that the women Aes Sedai are so selfish in that they note the shortage of lamp oil but ignore the simple solution of creating light and tying off the weaves and attaching it to a wick of a lamp? Is this a writer blunder?

 

Do the Aes Sedai consider themselves above such menial tasks? If so then they could assign the task to novices. They have been using the power to make products and sell for profit to keep the revenue coming to keep the coffers with money to cover the expenses. They could sell the lamps at market. they could start a business and name it Rebel LLP.

Edited by Bolt Walt
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I wouldn't call it selfishness, myself. I'd refer to it as a combination of arrogance and ignorance that characterized the WT and help speed along the breaking. These women didn't stop being Aes Sedai just because they're rebels, and didn't achieve some higher level of insight and inspiration by becoming such. It took a bunch of younger people not bound up in the forms and ideas of how things are run to kick them out of that broken mindset.

 

Why would they even think of to make light-weaves? They're handling more important things, like conducting a rebellion.

 

Note: That's not a justification, that's my understanding of why they are written the way they are. They are dysfunctional to the point of not even using their greatest resource to their benefit.

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Not to mention that the Power is addictive. Why close a door, tie your shoelaces, scratch your behind, why do these things manually when the Power is there waiting to be used? The one thing I think the Aes Sedai do right is not using channeling for absolutely everything. I like that the Ashaman do, but I also like that the Aes Sedai do not.

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Tying off weaves isn't a skill known by all AS. Of those who did know how to do it, it likely didn't occur to try it.

 

I am not seeing that as the reason. Tying off the weaves is relatively common knowledge in my opinion. For example, I remember some discussion about tying off a fire could be dangerous because it would constantly burn and create an inferno. When Rand was kidnapped, one of the keys to him breaking out was when the shield weaves were tied off to make hard points which he could attack, instead of the soft points when someone was holding the shield.

 

I could understand that tying off a weave that would be "mobile" might be too difficult. Like creating a light sphere in a lantern, and then the lantern is carried around. I could see that being more difficult than someone tying off a light sphere in a street light post which would be stationary.

 

The Black Tower has it right. Use the power as a tool.

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A couple of things that I think might interfere with mass-producing permanent, mobile lights using tied off weaves:

 

As mentioned previously, tying off a weave that involves fire is incredibly dangerous. Where there's light, there's usually heat as well, and since heat disperses much less slowly than light, I can easily imagine such a light eventually getting hot enough that it burns up anything combustible that touches it or comes too close.

 

Second, afaik, we've never seen a channeler permanently tie off a weave. Even the ones intended to last a long time, like the shield of that former Black Aes Sedai who's now a da'covale who's name escapes me, are usually mentioned as if they will eventually disintegrate or unravel. The only exceptions I can think of are the Tower's wardings against rats and other vermin or the keeping weaves. It may simply not be possible to permanently tie off the weaves that create light, or at the very least, extremely inadvisable. Difficulties in tying off weaves are mentioned in other places as well, for example, gateways. Why not create permanent, large gateways, tied off of course, between the major cities, or perhaps with Tar Valon as a hub? But we hear from Grady that tying off the weaves for a gateway are difficult in their own way, maybe as difficult as holding it open. What you gain in the strength to use other weaves later, you lose in the level of mental concentration required to tie it off at all, and thus the mental exhaustion that results from the attempt. Tying off the weave for a gateway permanently may simply be too complex for any human mind to accomplish, no matter the amount of power they wield, and tying off the weave for a light, as simple as that weave is, may be similarly complex. I think it's likely that the longer you want your tying off to last, the more effort you have to put into it. We never see the sisters put up permanent wardings, though we know that such things are supposed to be possible, so it may be that to create a permanent tie-off of virtually any weave would require such effort as to be fatal or nearly so to the weaver. While sisters might go to that level of effort to ward the Tower from the Dark One's eyes and to protect the food supply and overall structural stability of Tar Valon, I can't see them doing that just to make a few permanent lights they can sell for profit, or to save a bit of lamp oil.

 

Ter'angreal seem to me to be not about tying off the appropriate weaves within the material substrate, but about laying weaves on and within that substrate to change it's underlying structure and function. Elayne isn't described as "tying off a weave" when she's finished creating the ring ter'angreal or the foxhead, rather, she seems to be weaving to alter the structure of the material, and releasing her weave when that alteration is completed. It seems to me to be likely that present day Aes Sedai, ignorant as they are at creating ter'angreal at all, simply do not know how to create ter'angreal lights.

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Thats kind of small compared to other inconsistancies I've noticed. Like why none of the aes sedai with mat learned travelling after meeting verin.

That's only an inconsistency if it's stated that they learnt it. Did they learn it from Verin?

 

 

Tying off weaves isn't a skill known by all AS. Of those who did know how to do it, it likely didn't occur to try it.

 

I am not seeing that as the reason. Tying off the weaves is relatively common knowledge in my opinion.

But it's not known by all, as I stated. Some know it, others don't. That's not really any basis for establishing how well known it is.

 

Second, afaik, we've never seen a channeler permanently tie off a weave.
That's not true. Tying off permanently is the default way of tying off. It will only unravel if you tie it off in such a way that it will. I don't reall any mention of Liandrin's shield being impermanent, quite the reverse.

 

Why not create permanent, large gateways, tied off of course, between the major cities, or perhaps with Tar Valon as a hub?
Because Gateways involve either making a hole through the Pattern, or changing a part of it. This might be extremely inadvisable long term.
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Tying off permanently is the default way of tying off. It will only unravel if you tie it off in such a way that it will. I don't reall any mention of Liandrin's shield being impermanent, quite the reverse.

I understand it differently. Tying a weave is not permanent. you can control how long it'll last, there are mentions of tying a weave "loosely" or "tightly" to control how long till it unravels. But, the only mention of long lasting weaves are AOL power-objects who support "standing weaves", but even those fade eventually without maintenance.

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Tying off permanently is the default way of tying off. It will only unravel if you tie it off in such a way that it will. I don't reall any mention of Liandrin's shield being impermanent, quite the reverse.

I understand it differently. Tying a weave is not permanent. you can control how long it'll last, there are mentions of tying a weave "loosely" or "tightly" to control how long till it unravels. But, the only mention of long lasting weaves are AOL power-objects who support "standing weaves", but even those fade eventually without maintenance.

You misunderstand. Here's RJ to explain further: Week 7 Question: I would like to ask about knotting a weave. Does a channeler determine how long it will last when she knots it or is it dependent on her strength? If a channeler who knotted a weave died, would the weave dissipate immediately?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

 

Note the bolded. Unless you tie it off in such a way as to make it unravel, it will last indefinitely. Tying it off to unravel is a choice, not a default setting.

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  • 1 month later...

Not to mention that the Power is addictive. Why close a door, tie your shoelaces, scratch your behind, why do these things manually when the Power is there waiting to be used? The one thing I think the Aes Sedai do right is not using channeling for absolutely everything. I like that the Ashaman do, but I also like that the Aes Sedai do not.

Brilliant use of the source to be able to scratch your ass in relative anonymity well when not around others who can sense the source. Even around them, who can tell why you just used the source?

Edited by Bolt Walt
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Tying off permanently is the default way of tying off. It will only unravel if you tie it off in such a way that it will. I don't reall any mention of Liandrin's shield being impermanent, quite the reverse.

I understand it differently. Tying a weave is not permanent. you can control how long it'll last, there are mentions of tying a weave "loosely" or "tightly" to control how long till it unravels. But, the only mention of long lasting weaves are AOL power-objects who support "standing weaves", but even those fade eventually without maintenance.

You misunderstand. Here's RJ to explain further: Week 7 Question: I would like to ask about knotting a weave. Does a channeler determine how long it will last when she knots it or is it dependent on her strength? If a channeler who knotted a weave died, would the weave dissipate immediately?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

 

Note the bolded. Unless you tie it off in such a way as to make it unravel, it will last indefinitely. Tying it off to unravel is a choice, not a default setting.

 

I'd have to think that there is some kind of decay factor to the weave, but for all intents and purposes I'm fine with it lasting an incredibly long length of time.

 

Anyway, as an answer as to why the Aes Sedai don't do this, it may very well be a religious reason. The Aes Sedai essentially consider the One Power to be sacred, to be the Light, and to use it for such menial tasks is considered improper. They cheat, of course, but that seems to be the general doctrine, at least for life around the Tower.

Edited by Agitel
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There is a part, after a bubble of evil, a few books ago.

 

Rand collaps and they need to get him to a town somewhere. A man have to carry Rand through the forest and whenever he is about to trip and fall, a flow of Air keeps him up.

They reach a road, a farmer with a wagon appear and they go Grand Theft Wagon on it. RJ note that they clear the wagon from stuff using the One Power and that they do it with distaste as if it was beneth them or that it was somehow rude towards the Power to use it for tasks like that.

 

Very vague here, sorry :P

Just about how the Aes Sedai feel about channeling and the One Power.

 

 

And about tying off gateways, there is something special about it that make the waygate shrink over time and I think there was a mention that only someone really skilled could "strengthen" a tied off gateway.. Ahh here is the quote:

 

Traveling is done through the use of gateways. A gateway appears as a thin vertical line in the air, then expands into a rectangular portal. The weave holding the gateway open can then be tied off, after which the portal can be used by anybody in the area. If the weaves are left to dissipate, the gateway will shrink back to a single vertical line and eventually disappear. Using the One Power, it is possible, though difficult, to stop this process after it has started. Asmodean claims that of the original Aes Sedai, only Demandred, Semirhage and Lews Therin Telamon could prevent a gateway from closing.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Gateway

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Thats kind of small compared to other inconsistancies I've noticed. Like why none of the aes sedai with mat learned travelling after meeting verin.

That's only an inconsistency if it's stated that they learnt it. Did they learn it from Verin?

 

Well, they saw her make a gateway and they went through it. There was a bit with Sorilea where she showed someone how to make the weave even though she wasn't strong enough to actually use it to make a gateway and all the Aes Sedai are far more skilled with the Power than she is, so it can't be all that complex to see how it works.

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I'm pretty sure the completely idiotic behavior of the Aes Sedai was intentional and used to represent a culture of women with near absolute power that are not balanced by men. So yes, they were absurd and the way they behaved was completely retarded. I doubt it was a messup by RJ.

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Thats kind of small compared to other inconsistancies I've noticed. Like why none of the aes sedai with mat learned travelling after meeting verin.

That's only an inconsistency if it's stated that they learnt it. Did they learn it from Verin?

 

Well, they saw her make a gateway and they went through it. There was a bit with Sorilea where she showed someone how to make the weave even though she wasn't strong enough to actually use it to make a gateway and all the Aes Sedai are far more skilled with the Power than she is, so it can't be all that complex to see how it works.

Doesn't follow. The Aiel way of training their students involves them picking up weaves first time - if they have to ask to see it again, they are punished. The AS take much longer to train their students and expect them to do the same thing over and over, so just because an Aiel (even a very weak one) can pick up a complex weave on first sight doesn't mean that an AS will get everything they need in that one glance.
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