The Horn of Valere and Jain Farstrider

[FarShainMael]

Why are the memory and Mat speaking the old tongue tied together? I was under the impression that the Old Tongue came from Mat's blood. Couldn't the memory come from the Dagger? Didn't Aridhol fight trollocs?

 

No, Mat was shouting those OT battle cries before the party entered Aridhol / Shadar Logoth. It was as though he was remembering something that had happened a long time ago:

 

Egwene sniffed as if to show what she thought of that. “I wasn’t talking about that. What . . . what were you shouting, Mat?”

 

Mat shrugged uncomfortably. “I don’t remember.” He stared at them defensively. “Well, I don’t. It’s all foggy. I don’t know what it was, or where it came from, or what it means.” He gave a self-deprecating laugh. “I don’t suppose it means anything.”

 

“I . . . I think it does,” Egwene said slowly. “When you shouted, I thought—just for a minute—I thought I understood you. But it’s all gone, now.” She sighed and shook her head. “Perhaps you’re right. Strange what you can imagine at a time like that, isn’t it?”

 

“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”

 

Mat and Egwene looked at each other, while everyone else looked at them both. Egwene’s eyes were wide, and her mouth kept quirking into a smile that she bit back every time it began, as if she was not sure just how to take this talk of the old blood. Mat was sure, from the scowling frown on his face.

 

Rand thought he knew what Mat was thinking. The same thing he was thinking. If Mat was a descendant of the ancient kings of Manetheren, maybe the Trollocs were really after him and not all three of them. The thought made him ashamed. His cheeks colored, and when he caught a guilty grimace on Perrin’s face, he knew Perrin had been having the same thought.

[Taryn]

Not that this will be exactly accurate, but here goes:

 

In the WOT roleplaying game, with which RJ had a very very strong creative hand, the old blood is considered to be a talent in the same category as sniffing (Hurin), Dreaming, Dreamwalking, and Foretelling among other things. Sorry, don't have the book with me right now, but I'm thinking that the Old Blood and the things it allows Mat is completely separate from what he gained from the Finns. However, some of the abilities from his Old Blood (knowledge from ancestors) may have been replicated in his 'gift of memories' gained from the Finns. Just something to chew on.......

[Majsju]

The ch 18 quotes most likely would not have been Aemon, Aemon was married to an Aes Sedai so why he would yell like that towards Aes Sedai?

 

Well, the Amyrlin at the time, Tetsuan, betrayed Manetheren, so that the nation stood alone at the final battle. So even if Eldrene herself were Aes Sedai, Aemon certainly had cause to be somewhat upset with WT politics. especially since he could not know that it was Tetsuan personally, and not the WT that stood for the betrayal, and Tetsuan would be stripped of the stole when her betrayal was discovered.

 

Regarding Mats memories, there are three separate issues that should be treated as such.

First, him shouting random phrases of the Old tongue. clear example of the old blood being string in him, as it is in all the Two Rivers people.

Second, the flashback when he is healed in the WT. We can not be sure what the deal here is, but i would argue that it could just as well be one of Mats ancestors, rather than one of his previous incarnations. This might be what sets off his increasing ability to understand the Old Tongue. It could be the dagger, but that seems unlikely considering that mats ability does not really kick off until he is separated from it.

And third, the memories given by the finns. We know, thanks to a straight answer from RJ, that these memories are not from mats previous incarnations, but from a bunch of random peoplewho visited the the finns.

[jsbrads]

Twilight deeds don't matter, just the hour of death. eg Intar was an actual DF, but he stayed back and guarded Rand's back and he got added.

It isn't easy, but it is quiet possible, there is an element of luck to it, being at the right place at the right time etc.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Yeah, you guys covered Mat pretty well. I do think Eldrene was an Aes Sedai though, I seem to recall someone in the earlier books saying that all the queens of Mantheren were Aes Sedai. I'd also say that his Old Tongue shoutings during the Healing were not from Aridhol as someone suggested, but definitely Mantheren. He was ordering soldiers and shouted about the Red Eagle plenty.

 

As for the Hero rebirth rate, I don't think we can really gauge it. It may be more common than you'd think, RJ did say once that not ALL the lives of reborn Heroes are especially memorable, there could have been times where Gaidal Cain was a farmer, or something along those lines.

 

Interesting take that the Age of Legends might still be part of the Third Age, I never really looked at it like that before. But in enough interviews and the like, comments from RJ seem to indicate that the AoL WAS the Second Age. At least, I've often heard the term "in the Age before the Age of Legends..." used, which would seem to indicate that the Age of Legends is not the Third Age. Because if it was, and you were referencing something pre-AoL, why not just say "in the previous Age"? A distinction is definitely made. Unless this is something RJ was trying to keep secret.

[baalsmistress]

Yeah, you guys covered Mat pretty well. I do think Eldrene was an Aes Sedai though, I seem to recall someone in the earlier books saying that all the queens of Mantheren were Aes Sedai. I'd also say that his Old Tongue shoutings during the Healing were not from Aridhol as someone suggested, but definitely Mantheren. He was ordering soldiers and shouted about the Red Eagle plenty.

 

As for the Hero rebirth rate, I don't think we can really gauge it. It may be more common than you'd think, RJ did say once that not ALL the lives of reborn Heroes are especially memorable, there could have been times where Gaidal Cain was a farmer, or something along those lines.

 

Interesting take that the Age of Legends might still be part of the Third Age, I never really looked at it like that before. But in enough interviews and the like, comments from RJ seem to indicate that the AoL WAS the Second Age. At least, I've often heard the term "in the Age before the Age of Legends..." used, which would seem to indicate that the Age of Legends is not the Third Age. Because if it was, and you were referencing something pre-AoL, why not just say "in the previous Age"? A distinction is definitely made. Unless this is something RJ was trying to keep secret.

 

Well, given that the ages all repeat in a cyclic fashion, you could as easily call the 3rd age the 1st age, or the 2nd, or the 4th or 5th. If you look at what the introduction actually says.. 'In one Age, called the Thrd Age by some'. That certainly implies that the naming of the age as the 3rd age is a minority occupation. What others call it, if tehy even call it anything at all is left open.

 

I'm rather drawn, every time I hear the phrase '3rd age' to remember that the events of The Red Book (Hobbit + LoTR) chronicled the end of the 3rd age of middle earth. The 3rd age of middle earth also lasted 3021 years - another common theme. The 2nd age of middle earth saw the rise of the Numenor, and ended with the war against Sauron, his banishment to Shayol GhoulMordor and the destruction of the Numenorians, leaving their descendants to reclaim their glory in the final defeat of Sauron 3000 years later.

 

I also think ot the 4 ages of man in Babylon 5, the first 3 of which are summarized in one scene

 

Sheridan, "It's a new age, Delenn. A third age."

Delenn, "Why third?"

Sheridan, "We began in chaos, to primitive to make our own decisions. Then we were manipulated from the outside, by forces that though they knew what was best for us and now we are finally standing on our own."

 

The 4th age being the post-corporal stage commencing about 1 million years into the future,

[Master of Germs]

Well, can I add something about Mat and Perrin.

If these two were heroes of the Horn, why none of the heroes at Falme recognised them the way HAwkwing recognised Lews Therin. Well, there is a fair chance Perrin to be stalking in TAR in wolf shape, but what about Mat? Besides, the Hawkwing recognised the soul, not the body. Is the recognising of souls some special talent among Heroes? (I suppose this is how Rand recognised Mierin in his dream). But as we have two Heroes (Hawkwing and the Dragon) out of a hundred who have the talent, then it is not such a rarity to be called talent, I think.

So, I bet that Mat & Perrin are not heroes of the horn yet, but will become when they die. WHich is somehow stupid, as we know a lot of parallels to their archetypes in our mythologies. Maybe those two are upgraded to Hero status only when the equivalent of the Third Age comes again... and still it is a paradox.

We know that with each turning of the Wheel new Heroes are being added, but in my opinion it's almost inevitable that with each turning the same number should lose the Hero status. Otherwise the hornblowers would gain more and more power with each new Age.

 

P.S. And, btw, where, when, and by whom was made the bloody Horn of Valere? It's the greatest deux ex machina in the series so far, and that is why tGH is my least favourite book in the series (beating even CoT). (The portal stones are the second one, I really hated their introduction; jumping through worlds and dimensions makes the reading too much sci-fi and I don't like the two genres being mixed up. It's good that the use of portal stones has not been excessive, so far).

P.P.S. And back to the Farstrider. I bet he is hero of the Horn. he had the status of a living legend and I think this is the major characteristic of a Hero. (Well, I wouldn't bet if the Prince of the Ravens is my opponent, but I doubt I'll ever gamble with him).

[FarShainMael]

We don't know that Hawkwing did not recognise Mat and Perrin. Granted he did not address them by name:

 

“Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, friend. Perhaps you will find yourself among us, one day.” Hurin sat up as if he had been offered a crown. Hawkwing bowed formally from his saddle to Rand. “With your permission . . . Lord Rand. Trumpeter, will you give us music on the Horn? Fitting that the Horn of Valere should sing us into battle. Bannerman, will you advance?”

 

But this may have been because that this was forbidden by the Precepts, for some reason.

 

As for the whys and hows of the HoV itself, I'm with you!! (Though I like SF!)

[baalsmistress]

The Wheel of Time is eternal, neither beginning nor ending. We have Rand's PoV telling us of countless thousands of turnings in the past.

 

If it were the case that particularly noteworthy individuals were added, it would imply one of 3 things

 

1. The horn is a recent artifact, created in an age prior to the Age of Legends, called the 1st age by some. An age long past, an age yet to come and the current heros have all been added during the current cycle of the ages, and at some point the horn will be destroyed to be created anew in the next cycle. Probably most were 'boot strapped' into it

 

2. Over time the Horn of Valere would become more and more important and significant, summoning an ever larger army to the field. Implicitly this would mean that when the horn was young, few heroes would have been summoned.

 

I don't buy the concept of an artifact that survives multiple full cycles of the wheel, growing ever more powerful with each occurance of the 3rd age. It would imply that there was, indeed, a beginning to the wheel of time. Not A beginning, but THE beginning.

[FarShainMael]

Especially as it seems likely that a full turning of seven ages would have to include a BigBang / Big Crunch, resetting everything for a fresh start, and mangling all matter (and energy) in the process!

[Mr Ares]

Interesting take that the Age of Legends might still be part of the Third Age, I never really looked at it like that before. But in enough interviews and the like, comments from RJ seem to indicate that the AoL WAS the Second Age. At least, I've often heard the term "in the Age before the Age of Legends..." used, which would seem to indicate that the Age of Legends is not the Third Age. Because if it was, and you were referencing something pre-AoL, why not just say "in the previous Age"? A distinction is definitely made. Unless this is something RJ was trying to keep secret.

Well, "the Age before the Age of Legends" is a pretty clumsy phrase, no matter how you look at it. if the AoL was the second Age, why not just say the First Age? If it was the current Age, why not just say the Second Age, or the previous Age. Also, RJ's statements were used to support the theory. Aside from never numbering the AoL or the ABtAoL, he also mentioned as a defining feature of the changing of an Age the appearance of new Talents - such as Min's Viewings or Wolfbrothers. The transition to the ABtAoL and the AoL was marked by the emergence of channeling. We have no such thing in the Breaking - things get smashed up, but there are no new Talents. Thus one thing missing from the Breaking is the one thing RJ confirmed was a hallmark of a new Age. And therefore the only real difference between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years is scale. Is that enough to qualify for the changing of an Age? Who knows. Not something RJ ever clarified, nor that anyone ever asked about.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Well, "the Age before the Age of Legends" is a pretty clumsy phrase, no matter how you look at it. if the AoL was the second Age, why not just say the First Age? If it was the current Age, why not just say the Second Age, or the previous Age. Also, RJ's statements were used to support the theory. Aside from never numbering the AoL or the ABtAoL, he also mentioned as a defining feature of the changing of an Age the appearance of new Talents - such as Min's Viewings or Wolfbrothers. The transition to the ABtAoL and the AoL was marked by the emergence of channeling. We have no such thing in the Breaking - things get smashed up, but there are no new Talents. Thus one thing missing from the Breaking is the one thing RJ confirmed was a hallmark of a new Age. And therefore the only real difference between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years is scale. Is that enough to qualify for the changing of an Age? Who knows. Not something RJ ever clarified, nor that anyone ever asked about.

 

Fair enough. I suppose what it comes down to is that we're given very little information in terms of WoT cosmology. Almost anything we can do in this field is pure speculation. I'm still not ready to throw in completely with the idea that the Age of Legends and the "Third" Age are the same Age. But I'll certainly admit it's possible. I just think unless it turns out to be revealed in the plot that they are the same, every other indication has implied they're separate Ages. Now, that doesn't mean much, since we know how often people in the WoT world are wrong about things that they take for granted.

 

Also...I've thought about the idea that the universe is destroyed and remade continuously as well, FarShainMael. Again, it's pure speculation when you're talking about that sort of thing just because we don't know enough information about how the Wheel actually works. It sure seems possible, but I'm not sure about it either. I think there's an essential paradox...we have information that the Creator created the Wheel and that there was a moment of creation, but at the same time are told that there are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.

[cookiecrisp]

Interesting take that the Age of Legends might still be part of the Third Age, I never really looked at it like that before. But in enough interviews and the like, comments from RJ seem to indicate that the AoL WAS the Second Age. At least, I've often heard the term "in the Age before the Age of Legends..." used, which would seem to indicate that the Age of Legends is not the Third Age. Because if it was, and you were referencing something pre-AoL, why not just say "in the previous Age"? A distinction is definitely made. Unless this is something RJ was trying to keep secret.

Well, "the Age before the Age of Legends" is a pretty clumsy phrase, no matter how you look at it. if the AoL was the second Age, why not just say the First Age? If it was the current Age, why not just say the Second Age, or the previous Age. Also, RJ's statements were used to support the theory. Aside from never numbering the AoL or the ABtAoL, he also mentioned as a defining feature of the changing of an Age the appearance of new Talents - such as Min's Viewings or Wolfbrothers. The transition to the ABtAoL and the AoL was marked by the emergence of channeling. We have no such thing in the Breaking - things get smashed up, but there are no new Talents. Thus one thing missing from the Breaking is the one thing RJ confirmed was a hallmark of a new Age. And therefore the only real difference between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars or the War of a Hundred Years is scale. Is that enough to qualify for the changing of an Age? Who knows. Not something RJ ever clarified, nor that anyone ever asked about.

 

That might all start all over again too, though.

[1Brotherbill]

Jain could be a hero of the horn. He seems to be bound by the pattern so it could be.

 

I got into a discussion about this years ago. I figured that all the main caricatures in the books are part of the pattern and possibly bound to the horn.

 

That being said. There doesn't seem to be any channlers bound to the horn. Then again the pattern could have spun them all out for the end of the age. So Nye, Egw, Mor, Elayne even Suin could be bound to the horn and just not dead.

 

Mat, Perrin, and Rand could be bound as well. Bridgette proved that people are born and die millions of times and are bound to the horn. She also said that she has been known by many names and always carried a bow. Also didn't Hawking make a comment that Rand should have blown the horn and then he looked at Mat and said something like we meet again trickster. So it might be safe to say that in ages past Mat and Perrin could have been heroes and just not around Rand. The pattern just spun all three out at the same time this time to seal the DO's prison.

[Gabriel Kross]

Jain could be a hero of the horn. He seems to be bound by the pattern so it could be.

 

I got into a discussion about this years ago. I figured that all the main caricatures in the books are part of the pattern and possibly bound to the horn.

 

That being said. There doesn't seem to be any channlers bound to the horn. Then again the pattern could have spun them all out for the end of the age. So Nye, Egw, Mor, Elayne even Suin could be bound to the horn and just not dead.

 

Mat, Perrin, and Rand could be bound as well. Bridgette proved that people are born and die millions of times and are bound to the horn. She also said that she has been known by many names and always carried a bow. Also didn't Hawking make a comment that Rand should have blown the horn and then he looked at Mat and said something like we meet again trickster. So it might be safe to say that in ages past Mat and Perrin could have been heroes and just not around Rand. The pattern just spun all three out at the same time this time to seal the DO's prison.

 

I never noticed the trickster comment give me a few minutes and I look it up I looked up all the dialogue that conversation does not exist. He calls Mat the trumpeter but never says that Rand should have blown the horn or called Mat the trickster.

 

However there is a bit that strikes me as odd, there are people bound to the wheel not the horn I will quote the book.

 

["It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, Spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.]

[1Brotherbill]

 

I never noticed the trickster comment give me a few minutes and I look it up I looked up all the dialogue that conversation does not exist. He calls Mat the trumpeter but never says that Rand should have blown the horn or called Mat the trickster.

 

However there is a bit that strikes me as odd, there are people bound to the wheel not the horn I will quote the book.

 

["It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, Spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.]

 

 

That being said, you can't prove that Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nyeneve, Lan and Moraine are not bound to the horn. They just are just alive right now. If one dies then maybe they would come back to fight when the horn is blown.

 

Also Jain could show up in a few hundred pages bound to the horn. Or he might not even be dead yet. What if the snakes and foxes decided to keep him alive to live off his emotion.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I think being bound to the Wheel and being bound to the Horn are the same thing. Presumably people have been bound to the Wheel and spun out since before the Horn existed. The Horn is just what's used to call back the Heroes bound to the Wheel back to fight for whoever blows it. Anyone who is bound to the Wheel is a Hero who can be called by the Horn.

 

I doubt Mat and Perrin are bound, since they were both present and didn't receive the special attention from Hawkwing or any of the others that Rand did. Rand proves that even if one is bound to the Wheel and still alive, they can be recognized by Heroes of the Horn in that form. Obviously this is only true between rebirths, ie when Birgitte and Gaidal are both reborn, they don't recognize each other, although they are drawn to each other. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, if Birgitte were spun back into the Pattern, and was present when someone blew the Horn, I believe Gaidal would recognize her soul even if her body was only an infant. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think as long as a Hero is still tied to Tel'aran'rhiod, they could recognize others that were in the flesh (like Artur with Rand). I don't think this would hold true of Birgitte in her current state, since she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod and exists in the flesh.

[Gabriel Kross]

I think being bound to the Wheel and being bound to the Horn are the same thing. Presumably people have been bound to the Wheel and spun out since before the Horn existed. The Horn is just what's used to call back the Heroes bound to the Wheel back to fight for whoever blows it. Anyone who is bound to the Wheel is a Hero who can be called by the Horn.

 

I doubt Mat and Perrin are bound, since they were both present and didn't receive the special attention from Hawkwing or any of the others that Rand did. Rand proves that even if one is bound to the Wheel and still alive, they can be recognized by Heroes of the Horn in that form. Obviously this is only true between rebirths, ie when Birgitte and Gaidal are both reborn, they don't recognize each other, although they are drawn to each other. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, if Birgitte were spun back into the Pattern, and was present when someone blew the Horn, I believe Gaidal would recognize her soul even if her body was only an infant. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think as long as a Hero is still tied to Tel'aran'rhiod, they could recognize others that were in the flesh (like Artur with Rand). I don't think this would hold true of Birgitte in her current state, since she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod and exists in the flesh.

 

 

He wouldn't have gone through the effort of saying them differently if they were the same.

[1Brotherbill]

I think being bound to the Wheel and being bound to the Horn are the same thing. Presumably people have been bound to the Wheel and spun out since before the Horn existed. The Horn is just what's used to call back the Heroes bound to the Wheel back to fight for whoever blows it. Anyone who is bound to the Wheel is a Hero who can be called by the Horn.

 

I doubt Mat and Perrin are bound, since they were both present and didn't receive the special attention from Hawkwing or any of the others that Rand did. Rand proves that even if one is bound to the Wheel and still alive, they can be recognized by Heroes of the Horn in that form. Obviously this is only true between rebirths, ie when Birgitte and Gaidal are both reborn, they don't recognize each other, although they are drawn to each other. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, if Birgitte were spun back into the Pattern, and was present when someone blew the Horn, I believe Gaidal would recognize her soul even if her body was only an infant. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think as long as a Hero is still tied to Tel'aran'rhiod, they could recognize others that were in the flesh (like Artur with Rand). I don't think this would hold true of Birgitte in her current state, since she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod and exists in the flesh.

 

By your statement Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn. Because they are deff bound to the Wheel. Being that they are shaping the pattern as they walk around. Also, if Rand is bound to the pattern and also the horn like Bridgette does that mean the Dragon walks Tel'aran'rhiod when he isn't in the real world? That thought kind of scares me right now. Imagine one of your dreams touching the World of Dreams and you see the Dragon. What kind of a nightmare is that going to be?

[FarShainMael]

Mat and Perrin are both ta'veren (as indeed is Rand) but that is a temporary state, AIUI. As such, it's not enough to bind them to the Wheel.

 

We've seen Rand enter T'A'R several times, apparently in the flesh. I think we've also seen someone having a nightmare about him - I'll see if I can find the ref.

 

Edited: No luck. It was a woman who was having a nightmaer about the Dragon, and she dreamed him as a huge, terrifying monster. If I come across it I'll grab it.

[Thorgan]

If anyone gets bound to the horn I say it'll be Hurin.

 

Arthur Hawking talks to him in tGH and sais something along the lines "maybe you'll be one of those to join us."

 

+ Hurin is awesome :)

[Mr Ares]

I think being bound to the Wheel and being bound to the Horn are the same thing. Presumably people have been bound to the Wheel and spun out since before the Horn existed. The Horn is just what's used to call back the Heroes bound to the Wheel back to fight for whoever blows it. Anyone who is bound to the Wheel is a Hero who can be called by the Horn.

 

I doubt Mat and Perrin are bound, since they were both present and didn't receive the special attention from Hawkwing or any of the others that Rand did. Rand proves that even if one is bound to the Wheel and still alive, they can be recognized by Heroes of the Horn in that form. Obviously this is only true between rebirths, ie when Birgitte and Gaidal are both reborn, they don't recognize each other, although they are drawn to each other. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, if Birgitte were spun back into the Pattern, and was present when someone blew the Horn, I believe Gaidal would recognize her soul even if her body was only an infant. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think as long as a Hero is still tied to Tel'aran'rhiod, they could recognize others that were in the flesh (like Artur with Rand). I don't think this would hold true of Birgitte in her current state, since she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod and exists in the flesh.

 

 

He wouldn't have gone through the effort of saying them differently if they were the same.

Why not? If the two terms are interchangeable, it's quite reasonable that they would be used interchangeably. People do it all the time. It's hardly a lot of effort.

 

 

I think being bound to the Wheel and being bound to the Horn are the same thing. Presumably people have been bound to the Wheel and spun out since before the Horn existed. The Horn is just what's used to call back the Heroes bound to the Wheel back to fight for whoever blows it. Anyone who is bound to the Wheel is a Hero who can be called by the Horn.

 

I doubt Mat and Perrin are bound, since they were both present and didn't receive the special attention from Hawkwing or any of the others that Rand did. Rand proves that even if one is bound to the Wheel and still alive, they can be recognized by Heroes of the Horn in that form. Obviously this is only true between rebirths, ie when Birgitte and Gaidal are both reborn, they don't recognize each other, although they are drawn to each other. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, if Birgitte were spun back into the Pattern, and was present when someone blew the Horn, I believe Gaidal would recognize her soul even if her body was only an infant. Basically what I'm trying to say is I think as long as a Hero is still tied to Tel'aran'rhiod, they could recognize others that were in the flesh (like Artur with Rand). I don't think this would hold true of Birgitte in her current state, since she was ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod and exists in the flesh.

 

By your statement Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn. Because they are deff bound to the Wheel. Being that they are shaping the pattern as they walk around. Also, if Rand is bound to the pattern and also the horn like Bridgette does that mean the Dragon walks Tel'aran'rhiod when he isn't in the real world? That thought kind of scares me right now. Imagine one of your dreams touching the World of Dreams and you see the Dragon. What kind of a nightmare is that going to be?

It doesn't follow that Mat and Perrin are bound to the Horn, because they are not bound to the Wheel in any permanent fashion. And yes, the Dragon, being a Hero, resides in T'a'r between incarnations.

[Vermillion]

Any one of the main characters could be bound to the horn. So far the 2 Ta'veren that we have seen dead or died are heroes of the horn. Good chance all Ta'veren are heroes of the horn. Seems like Ta'veren are spun out for that purpose. After all Mat and Perrin could have just been Ta'veren echo's like the rest of Rand's friends who come into greatness after meeting him.

 

There is also a good chance that Ishy is a hero of the horn. It's at least been confirmed that his soul is tied to Rand.

[Gabriel Kross]

I have asked BS if bound to horn = bound to wheel and vice versa now we wait to see if there is a response

[Majsju]

Any one of the main characters could be bound to the horn. So far the 2 Ta'veren that we have seen dead or died are heroes of the horn. Good chance all Ta'veren are heroes of the horn. Seems like Ta'veren are spun out for that purpose. After all Mat and Perrin could have just been Ta'veren echo's like the rest of Rand's friends who come into greatness after meeting him.

 

There is also a good chance that Ishy is a hero of the horn. It's at least been confirmed that his soul is tied to Rand.

 

Ta'veren are not spun out. Ta'veren is something people become, when the Wheel has a specific need. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren just shortly before Moiraine showed up in the TR.

 

Could all Heroes become ta'veren once they approaches whatever they were spun out to do? Sure, there is no evidence they could not. Just as there is no evidence they could. I however find it unlikely. I think the combination is extremely rare, only found when the wheel has a huge need for something. take hawkwing for example. Even if he did not know it, his life was pretty much dedicated to setting up the board for Rand to later come and play on.