Blademaster Worthiness

[jsbrads]

they did seem to take a long time to get their stuff in order for the attack

 

Ya, I thought saying the fight was pure fiction would be funny

[Suttree]

BS said Gawyn was lucky in the fight with the blood knives.

[Jon Paul]

As I recall Gawyn was essentially dead. He was only saved by luckily being Healed. He is a Blademaster, there's no doubt. I expect no less than him to take three Ninja down with him. But he went down.

 

And Galad is still the better swordsman.

[Gabriel Kross]

Ok first off Elan and Kael, here is your problem you are both disregarding what the creator of the series and the person who took over all his notes to finish the series final word that Galad>Gawyn just is, you can be Gawyn fangirls all day but it doesn't change the fact that what is just is please lets drop the Galad Gawyn debate everyone and lets get back to what was actually being presented by the thread starter.

 

Lacanos, awareness means added agility and reflexes since when? I can be aware someone is going to hit me all day but that isn't going to change the fact that my body just wont move fast enough to prevent. Gareth did not say he moved that fast due to the bond, only that he was aware of the need because of the bond. Also, the "I could run a thousand leagues and never want for breath. I could stand against a hundred foes at once and laugh at them all." was speaking of his enhanced endurance which is specifically stated throughout the series. Enhanced endurance and awareness are improved physical prowess all on their own you guys are over-analyzing this. Plus keep in mind wikis are public sites that can be edited by anyone, just because information is on a wiki doesn't make it true. If you see the actual piece where the author or the book says a piece of information quote that, your theories should never be backed by "Well here is what the wiki said..."

[David Selig]

Straight from the books:

 

TGH, Ch. 24

 

Gawyn’s grin came back. “I do not know about that. Not from the way he was looking at Egwene, here.” He caught her look, and his sister’s, and held up his hands as if to fend them off with his sheathed sword. “Besides, he has the best hand with a sword I’ve ever seen. The Warders only need show him something once, and he’s learned it. They sweat me nearly to death to learn half what Galad does without trying.”

Pretty clear, if you ask me.

[jsbrads]

also we do need to come to some consensus on what the blood knives are. Are they just really good soldiers? are they soldiers who attained the rank of blademaster? or are they, as stated by the suldam, the best in Seachan?

Note: she may have unintentionally exaggerated their expertise with blades as they would have attained an almost mythological notoriety in Seachan.

 

Confirm David Selig, but I don't think that is enough, the Galad>gaywn needs to be constantly confirmed and was as Galad fought the rioters in Ghealdan, beat Valda...

[Kahsm]

BS said Gawyn was lucky in the fight with the blood knives.

 

Technically, he could say the same for Mat.

 

Ok first off Elan and Kael, here is your problem you are both disregarding what the creator of the series and the person who took over all his notes to finish the series final word that Galad>Gawyn just is, you can be Gawyn fangirls all day but it doesn't change the fact that what is just is please lets drop the Galad Gawyn debate everyone and lets get back to what was actually being presented by the thread starter.

 

Clearly you are not familiar with my work. I have stated numerous times that I accept the quotes from BS, at least pre-bonding. I'm not entirely convinced that when that was said (during ToM launch from BS) that post-bonding had been considered yet. But for the sake of argument lets say I agree with the "creator's" statement.

 

My point is, EVERY scrap of evidence in the books suggests differently. The way Gawyn's fights are written, the fights he's fought and won, the whole suggestion that he handicaps himself when he competes against Galad due to some perceived debt, or 'toh', if you will.

 

Furthermore, I put it forward that a majority of WOT readers do not read author quotes or interviews. So if it doesn't bear out in the text, that Galad is still better than Gawyn, then I may actually have the preponderance of general readership on my side.

 

But sure, Galad is better, I suppose BS has some notes outside the text that says that for whatever reason.

[baalsmistress]

also we do need to come to some consensus on what the blood knives are. Are they just really good soldiers? are they soldiers who attained the rank of blademaster? or are they, as stated by the suldam, the best in Seachan?

Note: she may have unintentionally exaggerated their expertise with blades as they would have attained an almost mythological notoriety in Seachan.

 

Confirm David Selig, but I don't think that is enough, the Galad>gaywn needs to be constantly confirmed and was as Galad fought the rioters in Ghealdan, beat Valda...

 

I would expect them to be exquisitly trained soldiers who ahve devoted years of their lives to mastering their weapons and tactics. Given that we have author confirmation that the Seanchan only know how to create a'dam, and no other terangreal, it would make no sense to give what has to be a limited supply of the bloodknife rings (either they have a stockpile, or are supplied with them by one of the chosen) to anything less than the best you have.

 

3 on 1 though, should have been a very swift result. Hell, if you are actually serious about killing the guy, have 2 engage him in swordrange, and the 3rd flick a throwing knife into his back.

 

Gawyn is good - really good. But he survived here because the bloodknives were uncharacteristically dumb.

[Gabriel Kross]

Actually, the Seanchan never said Blodknives were smart, just good assasins, they were probably never tested in a situation where someone would figure out a way to fight them.

[baalsmistress]

Charging a shield wall doesn't require being smart. In fact, being thick is probably an advantage in that occupation. An assassin, on the other hand, that is going to infiltrate an enemy stronghold, survey them, identify weaknesses and exploit them to kill guarded targets - smart is a positive necessity.

[Bromo Sapien]

Well, Seanchan just aren't as skilled as Randlanders. Rand defeated that blademaster dude (whose name escapes me atm) at Falme while he was still rather noob swordsman.

 

So if that's the height of Seanchan swordsmen elite, then 3 bloodknives could be rather shitty compared to your average blademaster in Randland. Although they did have the ter'angreal.

 

And just for the record, I think the whole fight against the bloodknives was stupid. Really, no one should stand a chance under the circumstances Gawyn was in. The bloodknives were acting like retards. They have one goal and they live to fulfill it, but yet they decide to keep fucking around with that one dude standing on the way, instead of going for the kill of that sleeping beauty.

 

Rand didn't kill High Lord Turak (the guy from Falme). It's pretty explicitly shown in the books that Rand got his ass handed to him while Turak toyed with him. It was only when Rand used the memories of one of the guys who reinvented swordplay as a weapon that he was able to beat Turak.

 

As for the Bloodknives scene, it was Friggin' Awesome. Stop overanalyzing it. You got three badass ninjas going up against a super-samurai. Boom! Awesome scene. But if you really want to look at it, they couldn't just "go for the kill". They were on their way to Egwene when Gawyn caught up with most of them and I seem to remember that the one who got to the Amyrlin's chambers got their after Gawyn, or just before. They're assassins. They can't just walk straight down the hallway.

[1Brotherbill]

There is no way that you can say Gawyn is going to be better than Lan. There is a part of the New Spring book where he took on seven people. Now that Gawyn is Egwenes warder that is going to cut down on the duels and such. He is just going to be a paper boy for the future fifty to sixty years anyway.

 

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy. I don't think Lan would kill Rand because Rand is a friend and Nyenieve has messed with Lan's head on that kind of stuff. Also I think that with Rands inner focus he would have a better chance at winning a duel with Lan. After all in Cairhein he would often duel ten people at once and pay out ten gold marks if he got hit. And from the story he was distracted and got hit once and it was a question if the gold should be payed. So that says that he probably never got hit in the duels before that.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan. It would be the right thing to kill Rand or Lan but it wouldn't be right to kill Gawyn. I don't think Galad would be able to beat Perrin in a duel either. Galad would probably beat Mat in a fight now as long as he knows that Mat is the Seanchan prince.

 

As far as a warder becoming a blademaster. Why not it seems they give it out to just about everyone in the books. If I was a blademaster and thought myself good I would be traveling the lands looking for blademasters to take there swords so the title would mean something.

[Nicook5]

They aren't more agile or faster and it's never said to be the case ever. It's never even alluded to that Warders can move faster than anyone else. If fact, their reactions are mostly attributed to their extensive training, not the bond itself.

 

And how is the way Warders walk around any different than the way the Aiel are described?

Rhurac and Lan carry themselves almost identically.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong here. It is said numerous times taht the warder bond increases reactions, speed and physical ability (even to the point where an old warder can maintain the physique of a young man). The first example that springs top mind is Gareth Bryne, just after being bonded by Siuan and while "raiding" the Tower to "rescue" Egwene, saves Siuan from the Bloodknife. Pages 647-648 Hardback TGS: "Bryne moved without thought. Three things in him mixed: years of training with the sword, a lifetime of practiced battlefield reflexes and a new bond-enhanced awareness" - the awareness indicates an increase in reflex/reaction times. Earlier in the book, just after being bonded, Bryne states "I could run a thousand leagues and never want for breath. I could stand against a hundred foes at once and laugh at them all." She rolled her eyes....all he could think about was how much better he might have become at swordplay!"

awareness does not indicate increase in reaction time... It simply means he's also aware of feelings coming from Siuan. I mean it specifically ties his reflexes to to his lifetime on the battlefield, so your quote basically shoots that whole "band = better reflexes" thing in the foot. As for the second quote all that's saying is more endurance (running further and fighting more people), which we've already established.

[capuga]

Rand didn't kill High Lord Turak (the guy from Falme). It's pretty explicitly shown in the books that Rand got his ass handed to him while Turak toyed with him. It was only when Rand used the memories of one of the guys who reinvented swordplay as a weapon that he was able to beat Turak.

 

There is no indication that Rand had help from LTT memories vs Turok. He won once he got serious and used the flame and the void. He was avoiding it because he was afraid to channel. Once he gave in and used the extra concentration he held his own and found a way to win.

 

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

[Suttree]

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

I totally agree but I do wonder if Gawyn being bonded closes the gap at all?

[capuga]

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

I totally agree but I do wonder if Gawyn being bonded closes the gap at all?

 

Certainly can't hurt his standing (especially since Galad doesn't look like he will ever be bonded). But the quote from Brandon was post-ToM release and he threw in the part about Gawyn being luckier then he thinks. So I don't think the quote is ambiguous like some others have argued.

[Suttree]

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

I totally agree but I do wonder if Gawyn being bonded closes the gap at all?

 

Certainly can't hurt his standing (especially since Galad doesn't look like he will ever be bonded). But the quote from Brandon was post-ToM release and he threw in the part about Gawyn being luckier then he thinks. So I don't think the quote is ambiguous like some others have argued.

 

Ahh didn't remember his ranking was combined with the lucky comment post ToM. That settles it for me then.

[Gabriel Kross]

Rand didn't kill High Lord Turak (the guy from Falme). It's pretty explicitly shown in the books that Rand got his ass handed to him while Turak toyed with him. It was only when Rand used the memories of one of the guys who reinvented swordplay as a weapon that he was able to beat Turak.

 

There is no indication that Rand had help from LTT memories vs Turok. He won once he got serious and used the flame and the void. He was avoiding it because he was afraid to channel. Once he gave in and used the extra concentration he held his own and found a way to win.

 

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

 

So post hand loss is unconfirmed?

[baalsmistress]

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

If we didn't argue about trivia, we might discuss serious topics - arguing about trivia is far less disruptive :)

[baalsmistress]

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

So post hand loss is unconfirmed?

 

And always will be - unless you see the 4 of them taking time out for a sword based pissing contest in AMoL :)

[Kahsm]

As far as Lan and Rand. I would say that Rand would win in a fight pre hand loss, also post non crazy.

 

Galad would get owned by Gawyn and he would destroy Rand and Lan.

 

Per RJ and Brandon:

 

Lan>Rand (pre-losing a hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

We have word of god, I'll never understand why these arguments continue.

 

I totally agree but I do wonder if Gawyn being bonded closes the gap at all?

 

Certainly can't hurt his standing (especially since Galad doesn't look like he will ever be bonded). But the quote from Brandon was post-ToM release and he threw in the part about Gawyn being luckier then he thinks. So I don't think the quote is ambiguous like some others have argued.

 

Ahh didn't remember his ranking was combined with the lucky comment post ToM. That settles it for me then.

 

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

[capuga]

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

[Bromo Sapien]

Are those purely sword-fighting rankings or as warriors in general? And are those the top four? My thoughts are on the Five Great Captains and their ranking along side these four. Bryne post-Bonding has to be up there for overall skill since no other Great Captain is a Warder and no Warder is also a Great Captain. Ituralde, in my mind, is the best strategist in the series, even more so than Mat because of his willingness to do what it takes. Where do they rank in this debate?

[Durinax]

Are those purely sword-fighting rankings or as warriors in general? And are those the top four? My thoughts are on the Five Great Captains and their ranking along side these four. Bryne post-Bonding has to be up there for overall skill since no other Great Captain is a Warder and no Warder is also a Great Captain. Ituralde, in my mind, is the best strategist in the series, even more so than Mat because of his willingness to do what it takes. Where do they rank in this debate?

They all have no ranking (except bryne). besides generals arent considered warriors, nor do they consider themselves as such, notice how many times it has been said a good general does none of the fighting himself

[1Brotherbill]

Are those purely sword-fighting rankings or as warriors in general? And are those the top four? My thoughts are on the Five Great Captains and their ranking along side these four. Bryne post-Bonding has to be up there for overall skill since no other Great Captain is a Warder and no Warder is also a Great Captain. Ituralde, in my mind, is the best strategist in the series, even more so than Mat because of his willingness to do what it takes. Where do they rank in this debate?

They all have no ranking (except bryne). besides generals arent considered warriors, nor do they consider themselves as such, notice how many times it has been said a good general does none of the fighting himself

There has to be some sort of ranking. Being that they all get moist in the loins when they talk about a great captain. There are generals all over the place but the great captains now that is something. With that being said I wouldn't put Bryne anywhere near the top. What has he done except chase Siuan across half the map. He seems more of a defensive guy instead of an offensive guy. Interlude is all about offense. Bashere is more balanced. Who are the other two again?

 

And posts about who would be better at a sword fight makes things interesting. We all realize that it's a fantasy book right? So why not have some fun with it?