Future Of the Asha'men

[MasterAblar]

Well, yeah, the issue is there are very few sisters currently at or around the BT. They're ridiculously outnumbered by men who are very likely better at fighting with the power in the first place. So them doing it alone seems...unlikely.

 

Really, the only thing that is going to oust Taim and his minions is something like the return of all the Ashaman under Rand, or Logain, or else something on a similar scale, since I doubt he'd waste everything he's built in a futile and meaningless battle. A massive attack by Aes Sedai however would probably turn all the Ashaman currently at the BT, except for the few who are already on to Taim, against the Aes Sedia themselves.

 

The part of the foretelling that says Aes Sedai will walk the BT grounds might already have happened. So an Aes Sedai presence at the BT for the other part of the foretelling is not necessary, or even likely apart from the few who are already there. However, Logain not being there is really pretty illogical. His position among the Ashaman is basically why he's an important character at this point.

I doubt the Shadow and Taim are going to fight a large-scale battle at the risk of high causalities especially when the Black Ajah was decimated.

 

That's what I think as well. Too much effort has been put into this to waste it at in a fairly pointless battle.

[Kahsm]

Here's a crazy one for ya. At FoM Rand and Egwene hash out a deal to merge towers, and so when Logain/Rand go back to the Tower, they effectively are Aes Sedai. Or maybe the prophecy refers only to Rand himself, having sorta-kinda claimed the title.

[Suttree]

One thing to consider is that every ruler IS going to want an Asha'man at his side for no other reason than that they represent a major power in the world, or at least they will after everyone sees what they can do during TG.

 

Really don't think so. In a world where some nations still need to hide the fact that they have AS advisors, it would be far worse for men and the extreme prejudice against them due to the taint. Rand in his own words rues the fact that no believes he has cleansed Saidin and that no one trusts men who can channel.

[XXX]

One thing to consider is that every ruler IS going to want an Asha'man at his side for no other reason than that they represent a major power in the world, or at least they will after everyone sees what they can do during TG.

 

Really don't think so. In a world where some nations still need to hide the fact that they have AS advisors, it would be far worse for men and the extreme prejudice against them due to the taint. Rand in his own words rues the fact that no believes he has cleansed Saidin and that no one trusts men who can channel.

 

 

When Rand said that only months had passed since the taint was removed...couple more years goes by with no men going mad and there will be a bee line of nations trying to get the BT to their side. Any ruler worth his salt will try make an alliance with a military force like the BT.

[Suttree]

One thing to consider is that every ruler IS going to want an Asha'man at his side for no other reason than that they represent a major power in the world, or at least they will after everyone sees what they can do during TG.

 

Really don't think so. In a world where some nations still need to hide the fact that they have AS advisors, it would be far worse for men and the extreme prejudice against them due to the taint. Rand in his own words rues the fact that no believes he has cleansed Saidin and that no one trusts men who can channel.

 

 

When Rand said that only months had passed since the taint was removed...couple more years goes by with no men going mad and there will be a bee line of nations trying to get the BT to their side. Any ruler worth his salt will try make an alliance with a military force like the BT.

 

Don't you think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit? Who knows what shape the BT will take years down the road when they are finally accepted. As for what Rand said

 

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

They hated male channelers. yet, in following Rand, they served one. Did they not see the contradiction? How could he convince them that there was no longer reason to murder men who could touch the One Power? He needed them! Why, there might be another Jorlen Corbesan among the very men the Sea Folk tossed into the ocean!

 

Those are very strong words, he doesn't see hope for the situation anytime soon. The world at large lives in ignorance, not sure why when some have to hide AS advisors you think it would be different for those perceived as madmen? In addition the BT will not just be able to rent out there military power to random nations and start taking sides in conflicts. Nothing would turn the world against them faster than that. It's the very reason AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

[Elan Tedronai]

Alot of people are going to be heartbroken and suprised when AMOL turns up and prologue chapters read. The black tower will be consigned to history. The most amazing thing here is that the man who made it all happen has never turned up to see how it's going since book 6. Yep book 6.

 

Leaving the most powerful fighting force in the whole series to a shady man like taim even after his cronies tried to kill the master and yet the master didnt have the balls or the gall to check the situation when he has the kal in his possession either.

 

 

Is it any suprise now to see how the whole tower is doomed now? Perhaps if rand listened to logain or did the right thing from the start, your precious black tower would not be facing a future of blood and fire. Right now enjoy the last few days of the BT. I personally cannot wait until it's wiped out from existence. C'mon pevara!

[XXX]

One thing to consider is that every ruler IS going to want an Asha'man at his side for no other reason than that they represent a major power in the world, or at least they will after everyone sees what they can do during TG.

 

Really don't think so. In a world where some nations still need to hide the fact that they have AS advisors, it would be far worse for men and the extreme prejudice against them due to the taint. Rand in his own words rues the fact that no believes he has cleansed Saidin and that no one trusts men who can channel.

 

 

When Rand said that only months had passed since the taint was removed...couple more years goes by with no men going mad and there will be a bee line of nations trying to get the BT to their side. Any ruler worth his salt will try make an alliance with a military force like the BT.

 

Don't you think you're getting ahead of yourself a bit? Who knows what shape the BT will take years down the road when they are finally accepted. As for what Rand said

 

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

They hated male channelers. yet, in following Rand, they served one. Did they not see the contradiction? How could he convince them that there was no longer reason to murder men who could touch the One Power? He needed them! Why, there might be another Jorlen Corbesan among the very men the Sea Folk tossed into the ocean!

 

Those are very strong words, he doesn't see hope for the situation anytime soon. The world at large lives in ignorance, not sure why when some have to hide AS advisors you think it would be different for those perceived as madmen? In addition the BT will not just be able to rent out there military power to random nations and start taking sides in conflicts. Nothing would turn the world against them faster than that. It's the very reason AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

As I said Rand is talking about his experience..and it is no wonder that no one believes him the taint is cleared. It has been what 2-3 months since that happened?

 

When no men go mad in 2,3,4 years then it will become obvious that the men are not going to go mad. The truth is in the pudding!!

 

Now they may be distrusted like the AS for their powers but that is a different issue from wondering if they will go mad when obviously they are not doing that.Also as the most powerful military force in Randland..it would be malpractice for rulers not to try to ally with them.

[Suttree]

When no men go mad in 2,3,4 years then it will become obvious that the men are not going to go mad. The truth is in the pudding!!

 

Now they may be distrusted like the AS for their powers but that is a different issue from wondering if they will go mad when obviously they are not doing that.Also as the most powerful military force in Randland..it would be malpractice for rulers not to try to ally with them.

 

Sigh.

 

Not sure why you aren't getting either point.

 

1. Who knows what shape the BT will take in 5+ years? Whatever it is it will be much different from the one we know now.

 

2. For thousands of years the AS have been seen as that most powerful group and it isn't seen as "malpractice"(really not the correct term) for leaders not to be allied with them. In fact some rulers need to hide the fact that they are. Even more so on the Ashaman side they will not be able to show favoritism to certain nations in conflicts using the OP or it will turn the world against them. That is one of the reasons AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

[XXX]

When no men go mad in 2,3,4 years then it will become obvious that the men are not going to go mad. The truth is in the pudding!!

 

Now they may be distrusted like the AS for their powers but that is a different issue from wondering if they will go mad when obviously they are not doing that.Also as the most powerful military force in Randland..it would be malpractice for rulers not to try to ally with them.

 

Sigh.

 

Not sure why you aren't getting either point.

 

1. Who knows what shape the BT will take in 5+ years? Whatever it is it will be much different from the one we know now.

 

2. For thousands of years the AS have been seen as that most powerful group and it isn't seen as "malpractice"(really not the correct term) for leaders not to be allied with them. In fact some rulers need to hide the fact that they are. Even more so on the Ashaman side they will not be able to show favoritism to certain nations in conflicts using the OP or it will turn the world against them. That is one of the reasons AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

 

1) My point is that Rand's observation is only for that point of time when it has been merely months since the taint has been cleaned. Irrespective of whether the BT exists as is or not, men who channel are not going to go mad anymore. So people all over are going to see it and will have to believe that the madness does not exist.

 

 

2) I see it from another angle..because the AS was the most powerful group rulers did ally with them, in secret or publicly but they did.So will they ally with Asha'man.

[Suttree]

2) I see it from another angle..because the AS was the most powerful group rulers did ally with them, in secret or publicly but they did.So will they ally with Asha'man.

 

But again you are side stepping the actual issues. Your statement doesn't address Ashaman not being able to use the power to take sides in conflicts. That is combined with the fact that at this point and for the near future they are weapons with zero skills to advise rulers in running their nations. Those things are combined with the larger issue of considerable time needed for people to get past the taint.

 

All in all once that amount of time has past the BT will be unrecognizable to what now stands. It is far more likely that men and women will be reunited and dealing with nations together.

[b3arz3rg3r]

2) I see it from another angle..because the AS was the most powerful group rulers did ally with them, in secret or publicly but they did.So will they ally with Asha'man.

 

But again you are side stepping the actual issues. Your statement doesn't address Ashaman not being able to use the power to take sides in conflicts. That is combined with the fact that at this point and for the near future they are weapons with zero skills to advise rulers in running their nations. Those things are combined with the larger issue of considerable time needed for people to get past the taint.

 

All in all once that amount of time has past the BT will be unrecognizable to what now stands. It is far more likely that men and women will be reunited and dealing with nations together.

 

Ultimately certainly. We all know that at some point male and female channellers will be united as Aes Sedai because the turning of the wheel dictates it. But the question is how long it will take for the unification to take. And what the Asha'man will do in the mean time.

Logain seems destined to take up the leadership of the Asha'man, but how likely is it really that he just knuckles down under Egwene when he doesn't even accept Rand's authority easily? And there's no need to even mention that Egwene would never consider the opposite. As for the intelligent solution of treating each other as equals and starting the whole Aes Sedai order afresh, well, that's not going to occur to anyone in the next ten years if the lack of communication and the abundance of pointless stubborness and prejudice demonstrated over the last ten or so books are any measure. XD

[Suttree]

And there's no need to even mention that Egwene would never consider the opposite. As for the intelligent solution of treating each other as equals and starting the whole Aes Sedai order afresh, well, that's not going to occur to anyone in the next ten years if the lack of communication and the abundance of pointless stubborness and prejudice demonstrated over the last ten or so books are any measure. XD

 

Not so sure of that actually, Egwene has shown to be very adaptable at times. In her short time she has introduced a number of reforms and has already done much the same in terms of treating each other as equals with the other channeling groups...

 

ToM Ch. 36

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

[b3arz3rg3r]

And there's no need to even mention that Egwene would never consider the opposite. As for the intelligent solution of treating each other as equals and starting the whole Aes Sedai order afresh, well, that's not going to occur to anyone in the next ten years if the lack of communication and the abundance of pointless stubborness and prejudice demonstrated over the last ten or so books are any measure. XD

 

Not so sure of that actually, Egwene has shown to be very adaptable at times. In her short time she has introduced a number of reforms and has already done much the same in terms of treating each other as equals with the other channeling groups...

 

ToM Ch. 36

"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

 

Despite her willingness to adapt Egwene does have her blindspots. From the way she has been acting throughout the series her regard for male channelers is one of them. You know as well as I that Egwene is rather prejudiced against men in general. There have been plenty of cases of her thinking or saying stuff like thinking with hair on their chests, which I believe she picked up from Nyneave, who was initally worse than her but changed quite a bit in this regard throughout the series. And a number of other unwarranted slights to men or how she blames Rand for the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, but is irritated when Nyneave points out that by the same logic she is responsible for the Aes Sedai attacking the BT in the first place. I'd say that Logain is actually more likely to be the one to accept equal cooperation between the two genders.

But like I said it's going to take ten years XD.

[MasterAblar]

Those are very strong words, he doesn't see hope for the situation anytime soon. The world at large lives in ignorance, not sure why when some have to hide AS advisors you think it would be different for those perceived as madmen? In addition the BT will not just be able to rent out there military power to random nations and start taking sides in conflicts. Nothing would turn the world against them faster than that. It's the very reason AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

Definitely agree with this. Being seen as taking part in conflicts between nations would be very bad for the Ashaman, as it would only highten the fear people have of them. If the Ashaman are smart, they'll stay out of conflicts just like the Night Watch in aSoIaF.

 

However that won't stop the rulers of various nations from at least trying to ally with the BT.

 

2. For thousands of years the AS have been seen as that most powerful group and it isn't seen as "malpractice"(really not the correct term) for leaders not to be allied with them. In fact some rulers need to hide the fact that they are. Even more so on the Ashaman side they will not be able to show favoritism to certain nations in conflicts using the OP or it will turn the world against them. That is one of the reasons AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

I doubt that those who have lived with the fear of male channellers will ever truly get over it. Even after decades it'll still be there. However that doesn't mean that rulers won't try and work with them despite their fears. Elayne has already considered trying to claim the Ashaman. There's no reason why other rulers, particularly those who have already worked with Ashaman, won't try to strike a deal of some kind with them. Rulers have to think of what's best for their country unlike any random farmer. And if they really think about the issue, they'll realise what potential there is in an agreement of some sort with the BT.

 

But again you are side stepping the actual issues. Your statement doesn't address Ashaman not being able to use the power to take sides in conflicts. That is combined with the fact that at this point and for the near future they are weapons with zero skills to advise rulers in running their nations. Those things are combined with the larger issue of considerable time needed for people to get past the taint.

 

Just being seen with an Ashaman at their side is interesting for a ruler though. Let people think what they want of it. It doesn't necessarily matter that the Ashmaman is not really giving advice.

[MasterAblar]

Despite her willingness to adapt Egwene does have her blindspots. From the way she has been acting throughout the series her regard for male channelers is one of them. You know as well as I that Egwene is rather prejudiced against men in general. There have been plenty of cases of her thinking or saying stuff like thinking with hair on their chests, which I believe she picked up from Nyneave, who was initally worse than her but changed quite a bit in this regard throughout the series. And a number of other unwarranted slights to men or how she blames Rand for the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, but is irritated when Nyneave points out that by the same logic she is responsible for the Aes Sedai attacking the BT in the first place. I'd say that Logain is actually more likely to be the one to accept equal cooperation between the two genders.

But like I said it's going to take ten years XD.

 

More than anything both sides have to want to join together. It might not be the best move for the BT in the immediate future to join with the WT. There is a huge amount of potential for the BT, and joining with the WT might seriously limit it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Those are very strong words, he doesn't see hope for the situation anytime soon. The world at large lives in ignorance, not sure why when some have to hide AS advisors you think it would be different for those perceived as madmen? In addition the BT will not just be able to rent out there military power to random nations and start taking sides in conflicts. Nothing would turn the world against them faster than that. It's the very reason AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

Definitely agree with this. Being seen as taking part in conflicts between nations would be very bad for the Ashaman, as it would only highten the fear people have of them. If the Ashaman are smart, they'll stay out of conflicts just like the Night Watch in aSoIaF.

 

However that won't stop the rulers of various nations from at least trying to ally with the BT.

 

2. For thousands of years the AS have been seen as that most powerful group and it isn't seen as "malpractice"(really not the correct term) for leaders not to be allied with them. In fact some rulers need to hide the fact that they are. Even more so on the Ashaman side they will not be able to show favoritism to certain nations in conflicts using the OP or it will turn the world against them. That is one of the reasons AS had to take the oaths in the first place.

 

I doubt that those who have lived with the fear of male channellers will ever truly get over it. Even after decades it'll still be there. However that doesn't mean that rulers won't try and work with them despite their fears. Elayne has already considered trying to claim the Ashaman. There's no reason why other rulers, particularly those who have already worked with Ashaman, won't try to strike a deal of some kind with them. Rulers have to think of what's best for their country unlike any random farmer. And if they really think about the issue, they'll realise what potential there is in an agreement of some sort with the BT.

 

But again you are side stepping the actual issues. Your statement doesn't address Ashaman not being able to use the power to take sides in conflicts. That is combined with the fact that at this point and for the near future they are weapons with zero skills to advise rulers in running their nations. Those things are combined with the larger issue of considerable time needed for people to get past the taint.

 

Just being seen with an Ashaman at their side is interesting for a ruler though. Let people think what they want of it. It doesn't necessarily matter that the Ashmaman is not really giving advice.

 

Why become advisors no matter of which form at all? There is no need for the Asha'man to become male versions of the current Aes Sedai. In fact it would be the worst thing they could do. Good old capitalism would give them a lot more influence and wealth a lot sooner. They can offer a multitude of services in which they could achieve for a while a monopole, because their potential concurrents are with one exception unable to respond in the near future. Either they are too old-fashioned and too bound in traditions- the Windfinders and the Wise Ones- or too divided within themselves and too prideful- the Aes Sedai- or they are enslaved by the state- the Damane. The sole exception are the Kin and the lack unified direction. Within a few short years the Asha'man could be an incredibly rich corporation on which a number of nations were atleast in part dependant upon. And that wealth and influence would immediately translate into political say. Obviously at some point their free ride would be over and the female channellers would react or there might be rival male organisations so the Asha'man would be balanced commercially before they control the whole world, but they should have those first few years.

 

Despite her willingness to adapt Egwene does have her blindspots. From the way she has been acting throughout the series her regard for male channelers is one of them. You know as well as I that Egwene is rather prejudiced against men in general. There have been plenty of cases of her thinking or saying stuff like thinking with hair on their chests, which I believe she picked up from Nyneave, who was initally worse than her but changed quite a bit in this regard throughout the series. And a number of other unwarranted slights to men or how she blames Rand for the Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai, but is irritated when Nyneave points out that by the same logic she is responsible for the Aes Sedai attacking the BT in the first place. I'd say that Logain is actually more likely to be the one to accept equal cooperation between the two genders.

But like I said it's going to take ten years XD.

 

More than anything both sides have to want to join together. It might not be the best move for the BT in the immediate future to join with the WT. There is a huge amount of potential for the BT, and joining with the WT might seriously limit it.

 

I would agree with you. Unlike all the organisations of female channelers the Asha'man are a young and potentially vibrant organisation which isn't trapped by history and traditions. They could achieve quite a lot more if they remained independant for the next few decades than if they joined up as some sort of junior partner which they no doubt would be at this point.

[MasterAblar]

Why become advisors no matter of which form at all? There is no need for the Asha'man to become male versions of the current Aes Sedai. In fact it would be the worst thing they could do. Good old capitalism would give them a lot more influence and wealth a lot sooner. They can offer a multitude of services in which they could achieve for a while a monopole, because their potential concurrents are with one exception unable to respond in the near future. Either they are too old-fashioned and too bound in traditions- the Windfinders and the Wise Ones- or too divided within themselves and too prideful- the Aes Sedai- or they are enslaved by the state- the Damane. The sole exception are the Kin and the lack unified direction. Within a few short years the Asha'man could be an incredibly rich corporation on which a number of nations were atleast in part dependant upon. And that wealth and influence would immediately translate into political say. Obviously at some point their free ride would be over and the female channellers would react or there might be rival male organisations so the Asha'man would be balanced commercially before they control the whole world, but they should have those first few years.

 

Oh I agree, I don't think they should become advisors either. I was just trying to show why, from the point of view of a ruler, it could be beneficial, inspite of the fact that the Ashaman are not really fit, as a whole, to be advisors.

[mb]

Perhaps if rand listened to logain or did the right thing from the start, your precious black tower would not be facing a future of blood and fire.

Eliada's Foretelling was in Crown of Swords Prologue.

Logain's first on-screen appearance at the Black Tower was in Path of Daggers. I would guess Logain arrived sometime after the Fortelling.

If I remember correctly, Logain first talked with Rand in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Though I interpret the Foretelling as a divide and a battle.

 

 

'the right thing' is a vague phrase; different people can have different meanings of it.

[supersprode]

Ah....not my idea, but one that i fully believe is correct, is that Taim is going to impersonate Rand at one point by his mirror of the illusion thingies, and Logain will see through it(with ablity to see Taverin) to kill him and rally everybody around to whipe out Taim's darkfriend groupies, and become head of the black tower. One of Egwene's dreams is of Logain stepping over a black rock(black tower) and the Rock becomes Rand's body, but a mask breaks off when he steps on it or something. Plus, Min's viewing of glory, what else could it be? I don't think he's going to become the Queen of England or something. And then Aes Sedai and ashaman will become friendly, and whether they move in together and share shower rooms I don't really care, that will be epilogue stuff that is no consequence, because i doubt the last book will be filled with 200 pages of pulling braids and smoothing dresses over frisky coeds in white tower.