If Tuon Dies....

[mahmed37]

If tuon dies does that make Mat the Emperor of the Seanchan forces on Randland? If so it is likely a very neat way to solve the Seanchan problem, except for Mat's broken heart Any thoughts?

[DemandredFO]

There were outriggers with Mat and Tuon planned. Also The Lady of Fortune hasn't done anything yet.

[RAbbott85]

Agreed - planned outrigger post TG mean Tuon won't die.

[David Selig]

Mat is just the consort of Tuon. If she dies, the throne should go to whoever is the stronger claimant amongst the Seanchan High Blood on this side of the ocean. Sure, Mat has been raised to the Blood by his marriage, but I really don't see the Seanchan accepting Mat for Emperor. He's a foreigner, has no Hawkwing blood, he fought against them and killed a bunch of them, he has close ties with marath'damane, etc. Not to mention that becoming an Emperor is one of the last thing he wants.

[CUBAREY]

First, the fact that RJ planned an outrigger based 10 years after the end of the main events in which Tuon and Mat were to play major roles precludes Sanderson killing off Tuon. That being said, while Mat is an outsider and the fact that all authentic family members have been killed off, The Prince of the Ravens would likely be a top contender especially since the DeathWatch seems to hold him in some respect and might very well throw themselves behind him. However, there likely would be multiple claiments and a bloody civil war (which is already raging in Seanchen itself) would likely occur.

[mahmed37]

Sorry I must have missed something, but what is an outrigger, in wot speak??

[FarShainMael]

It means novels which are set before, outside, or after the main sequence but which are not directly part of it. For example, RJ's plans were to write about Mat and Tuon set in a timeframe 10 years after TG. Others might be about Tam's military experience, Berelain's political manoeuvers in Mayene, the development of the steam-wagon and its effects on Randland economy, etc.

[Martagnan]

I'm just very impressed that in the 3rd Age there's no racism lol :) It's very nice to read a series where the major love interests aren't all buxom blondes or raven haired/redheaded beauties :) Copper skinned, tilted eyes, prominent noses, dark skinned and tight curly hair - the Wheel turns but we're not all tan with brown eyes lol :D

[FarShainMael]

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because - what with trolls and dwarfs and so on - speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

 

-- (Terry Pratchett, Witches Abroad)

 

What with all those Trollocs and Fades around..

[spoke]

Well, there has been some considerable foreshadowing of Berlain leading the Seanchan Empire. There are many quotes about her having her head shaved like an egg, and she claims to be a descendant of Hawking.

[Lisa Campbell]

Well, there has been some considerable foreshadowing of Berlain leading the Seanchan Empire. There are many quotes about her having her head shaved like an egg, and she claims to be a descendant of Hawking.

 

Tylee Kirgan said that Berelain may be adopted into the royal family. Which would mean that if so (Tuon would have to do or order it), she would be the sole heir (would also have to be 'named' by Tuon).

 

The question is though is Mat now a part of the family by becoming Prince of the Ravens. I think that by marrying Tuon and automatically becoming Prince, that he is now of the royal family as his title indicates. If Tuon names him heir, then he would currently be the only one unless Tuon adopts and names others such as Tylee or Galgan.

 

However, when Semi confesses murder of the royal family, Suroth was paranoid about Galgan wanting to be Emperor if Tuon died so, perhaps Mat or Berelain would be in the running without Tuon naming them as heirs due to their position or heritage.

[Rcurran]

That statement about there being no racism in wot is a joke, right? The term 'wetlander' is racist for just one tiny example from the thousands of them! Race defines everything in wot ... This exact same misperceprion is what people use to defend their racist views in real life, 'I'm not racist but ... ' followed by something totally racist!

 

Tuon, for example, is a total racist. Every race other than direct descendants of AH are beneath her. Well, maybe it's xenophobia but I don't think that's it. Bronzy coloured Domani skin, to me, reminds me of Spanish people. Maybe it's just the Domani are all un poco como Carmen, I don't know. I hope you realise I'm being satirical!!

 

I think it is a shame we know she won't die in advance. Couldn't she die a little? Rand has to die, Matt died already, it looks like Perrin's numbers up. If only her and Cads could take each other out I'd be happy! I'm not racist but those Seanchan are so stupid and incapable of real love ;)

[FarShainMael]

Recognition of differemces between peoples is not racist. Punishing people for differences is racist, sexist, classist, and any other -ist you care to name. So, I submit, is ignoring differences. Differences should be celebrated! /rant

[Rcurran]

I don't know if you agree or not. Your Terry Pratchet quote is great, by the way.

 

To reitterate, racism is generally accepted in WoT as a sort of overblown patriotism or whatever. The truth is they're racist and that's ok.

 

They don't subscribe to our stupid black / white / Asian type racism. Racism is a lot more than the colour of your skin. White people are perfectly capable of being racist to each other. Did you watch the latest episode of Boardwalk Empire where Chalky White is being racist to his daughter's boyfriend as he has white parents?

 

Personally I sense Im taking this a bit too seriously but I think it is important that Martagnan understands what racism actually is because most racism is born out of ignorance not malice.

[FarShainMael]

I don't know if you agree or not. Your Terry Pratchet quote is great, by the way.

 

Yes, and no. I think punishment for, or criticism of, any difference, is what makes a comment or attitude racist. Simple recognition of the existence of difference is not.

 

For example, the Aiel refer to the region of Randland west of the Spine as 'the wetlands' and their inhabitants as 'wetlanders'; but this is not necessarily a term of abuse, simply an indication of one of the more profound differences between their peoples. It might even be envious in a way, given that they call the Waste the 'Three-fold Land': 'a shaping stone to make them, a testing ground to prove their worth and a punishment for their sin'.

 

OTOH the term 'treekillers' is abusive, however, but has nothing to do with racial differences!

 

Tuon, now.. that's an entirely different container of miscellaneous swimming things.. yes, I'd say the entire Seanchan culture is racist. But we know who to blame for that, don't we.. I'm looking at you, Ishydin!

[BrennanTucker]

Mat is just the consort of Tuon. If she dies, the throne should go to whoever is the stronger claimant amongst the Seanchan High Blood on this side of the ocean. Sure, Mat has been raised to the Blood by his marriage, but I really don't see the Seanchan accepting Mat for Emperor. He's a foreigner, has no Hawkwing blood, he fought against them and killed a bunch of them, he has close ties with marath'damane, etc. Not to mention that becoming an Emperor is one of the last thing he wants.

 

I don't know how I feel about this exactly....I don't believe that Mat would ever even TRY to be a claimant to the throne of Seanchan. At the same time as much as he is an outlander and such, so was Hawking, and the damane comment could end up defunct because I have a very firm belief that Tuon will eventually learn how to channel whether she wants to at not. I feel like somewhere at some time I read something that alluded to her being another one of the "most powerful" (quotes because there seem to be a lot of those nowadays). Hmmm, this deserves a contemplative hunch and a beard stroke if I do say so myself. I will think on it.

 

OH, and not that it belongs in this thread, but I just started re-reading the series...there is a portion in The Eye of the World, in rands first dream with Sight Blinder where he talks about manipulating Hawking when he went over to Seanchan that said something like he ruined things back then and set up something to ruin rand in this age...I think he was talking about how he changed the prophecies to read that The Draon would bow before the Seanchan throne, instead of vice versa which is the truth of the matter. Just thought that was interesting, I didn't catch it my first time through the books. This is old news but I just caught it and laughed.

[Jon Paul]

If you look at it from an American prism, then yes, racism isn't very evident. However, take the Tairens and Illianers.. are you trying to tell me there is no racism there? Race defined by skin-colour is a distinctly Colonial phenomenon. For centuries people have spoken of an Irish race, an English race, a Polish race etc. And there's been racism against one another.

 

As in the WoT, ethnic conflict etc.

[yoniy0]

If you look at it from an American prism, then yes, racism isn't very evident. However, take the Tairens and Illianers.. are you trying to tell me there is no racism there? Race defined by skin-colour is a distinctly Colonial phenomenon. For centuries people have spoken of an Irish race, an English race, a Polish race etc. And there's been racism against one another.

I disagree. In the three examples you've presented, three distinct races where actually present. Would people have talked of a Spanish race as opposed to a Catalonian race, for example? Was race the same as national alignment? I don't think so.

[Nicook5]

If you look at it from an American prism, then yes, racism isn't very evident. However, take the Tairens and Illianers.. are you trying to tell me there is no racism there? Race defined by skin-colour is a distinctly Colonial phenomenon. For centuries people have spoken of an Irish race, an English race, a Polish race etc. And there's been racism against one another.

I disagree. In the three examples you've presented, three distinct races where actually present. Would people have talked of a Spanish race as opposed to a Catalonian race, for example? Was race the same as political alignment? I don't think so.

 

nvm... just realized i have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Randommer]

I was just wondering. Yes, we have confirmation that RJ was planning outriggers, but in Avi's visions (around 17 years in the future) Tuon's been dead, or at least not in power, for quite a while. So what happened there?

[Suttree]

I was just wondering. Yes, we have confirmation that RJ was planning outriggers, but in Avi's visions (around 17 years in the future) Tuon's been dead, or at least not in power, for quite a while. So what happened there?

 

Avi's vision is a possible future, nothing more. The outriggers are proof that not everything in her vision comes to pass.

[Randommer]

I was just wondering. Yes, we have confirmation that RJ was planning outriggers, but in Avi's visions (around 17 years in the future) Tuon's been dead, or at least not in power, for quite a while. So what happened there?

 

Avi's vision is a possible future, nothing more. The outriggers are proof that not everything in her vision comes to pass.

Not necessarily, in this case. For instance, we don't know that Tuon doesn't die in the outriggers. Or, more likely, that she doesn't give up being Empress at some point, perhaps because she channels.

[1Brotherbill]

Recognition of differemces between peoples is not racist. Punishing people for differences is racist, sexist, classist, and any other -ist you care to name. So, I submit, is ignoring differences. Differences should be celebrated! /rant

 

Ok, racism is defining differences between people and usually thinking that your race is superior. So Seanchan total racists. Borderlanders in general total racists. Aes Sadei total racists. Racism is all over WOT.

 

Back to the point. If Tuon dies I can't see Mat being ruler of the Seanchan. First off I don't recall a emperor being called out in the books. It's always may she live forever. How many brothers did Tuon have again?

 

Also Seanchan is in revolt at this moment and I can't see her showing up at the Crystal Throne by gateway (because by ship would take to long) and make it all right. So even if she dies I can't see Mat being in charge.

 

Also how do they know for sure that the empress is dead anyway? They can't travel and the journey is so long and difficult how can news have reached them anyway?

[Bromo Sapien]

I think there's some mix up on the definition of racism. There is no racism in WOT. At all. Not even the Seanchan are "racist". They are xenophobic and elitist, but there really has never been any discussion of race at all in the books. It's been more about cultural conflicts than ethnic ones. The Seanchan see the Randlanders as uneducated and less than them because they let marath'damane run around and because of their militaristic inferiority. Within Randland, the differences between kingdoms are all political in nature. Even in places like Tear or Cairhein, the hatred within the cities are classist differences between the lords and peasants, not racist.

 

As for Mat and the Crystal Throne, I always assumed that whenever the Empress/Emperor died, it always went to whoever could claim it in a war. The way Tuon talked about the future Succession to the throne by her or one of her siblings, it always sounded bloody and bad. And Suroth had thoughts for the throne as well, before she was outed. That implies that it doesn't have to be this family that has the throne, much like any other monarchy. Andor can trace every Queen's bloodline back to Ishara and they've had multiple ruling families. While Mat could easily sweep the floor with any competitor, would he want to/be able to get to Seanchan before the party's all over?

[Rcurran]

I think I'll ask Brandon what he thinks on the signing tour because I don't think anyone has put forward the right argument about racism in WoT.