Rand at Maradon

[Entreri]

I see, he faced off against an army that was probably a million Shadowspawn all by himself (without angreal or sa'angreal) and defeated it, an army that would destroy all Randlander armies (except WH, due to 1000 AS). The smallest this Trolloc army could be is 1/2 million, given its description/abilities to take out Randlander armies.

 

Could you quote the descriptions you are using to come up with these estimates? The only time we have a number mentioned it say "tens of thousands" dead and "legions" running away. I just don't think a million shadowspawn force would be described in such a way.

 

This is an estimate given what Ituralde states. That nothing in Andor, Saldaea or Arad Domon would stop this force and he prays that the DR made peace with the Seanchan.

 

Being a grade A+ general, Ituralde no doubt knows the full capabilities of each nation, how much they can field.

 

Andor would have at least 100,000 if not 200,000 men. Arad Domon, possibly 1/2 that.

Saldaea easily more than 1/2 of Andor's 100,000 (they already sent 50,000 with their Queen).

 

All together, those armies would represent at least about 200,000 and at most 400,000.

 

Typically, due to tactics, it appears that human armies can face off against about twice the number of Shadowspawn and manage to survive, even without channelers.

 

The size of this army would have to be MASSIVE in order to sweep aside such nations like dominoes, keep in mind that in each battle the Trollocs would lose numbers.

 

Lastly, Ituralde has faced off and defeated a Seanchan army numbering 300,000...and he never felt this hopeless. It is implied by Iturlade that only the Seanchan can stop this army. Thus it truly has to be massive. That is why I put the minimum at 1/2 million and max at 1 million.

 

What Rand accomplished in Maradon >> Rand + 24 other channelers in KoD did against 100,000

[Hadilmir]

What Rand accomplished in Maradon >> Rand + 24 other channelers in KoD did against 100,000

Your estimates are pretty good, but the point is they are irrelevant. Rand did not wipe out the entire force. "Tens of thousands dead" can really be anywhere from 30,000 to 190,000 from a grammatical standpoint. I tend to think Rand obliterated perhaps 90,000 trollocs, an incredible feat none the less. The method in which he did it is the real masterpiece, not just the fact that he wiped out (in my opinion) nearly 100,000 trollocs alone.

[Entreri]

What Rand accomplished in Maradon >> Rand + 24 other channelers in KoD did against 100,000

Your estimates are pretty good, but the point is they are irrelevant. Rand did not wipe out the entire force. "Tens of thousands dead" can really be anywhere from 30,000 to 190,000 from a grammatical standpoint. I tend to think Rand obliterated perhaps 90,000 trollocs, an incredible feat none the less. The method in which he did it is the real masterpiece, not just the fact that he wiped out (in my opinion) nearly 100,000 trollocs alone.

 

 

He certainly did not kill off the majority of that army. Similar to when the Asha'man dispersed the Shadow.

 

In KOD, the number of Trollocs were also described as "tens of thousands". Appears to be a common phrase when describing a large number of Trollocs.

 

After the battle in KoD, during the cleanup it is described "maybe a hundred thousand Trollocs" and "fewer than twenty Aes Sedai and fewer than a dozen Asha'man".

 

Given this, I think it is safe to assume that he killed at least 100,000, but less than 200,000 during the battle.

 

He did the work of over 30 channelers in KoD (5 of whom are Forsaken strength level and above, Rand, Logain, Alivia, Nyaneve+angreal, Cadusane+angreal).

[Kahsm]

Fun discussion on numbers, but rather irrelevant given how he used area effect weaves which really don't care how many Trollocs are rushing through the passes from the blight.

[Samborob]

I would like to point out something unquoted from page 86 of The Towers of Midinight by Egwene after encountering the newly improved and Godlike Rand A'lthor Dragon Reborn. Egwene:"I doubt we could have held him. There's something about him . I ..I had the sense he could have broken that shield WITHOUT A STRUGGLE." Ok, so now I hope all of you would like to expurgate all of your half valid points after I expound this theory and idea of mine a little further. First off let's try and recall this encounter in its entirety. The Dragon, post VOG, all of a sudden appears in Tar Valon , seemingly the ABSOLUTE last place one would have found him and equivalent to having him appear at Shayol Ghul itself( perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but not by much considering). The dangers involved to the most important living entity to the Last Battle casually, almost negligently(from others perspective not the Dragon's) entering the domain of people who have since nearly the prologue of the series been antagonistic, even downright deliberately hostile and controlling, is for lack of a better word gargantuan not to mention it implies insanity in this person involved, unless he has all of a sudden progressed or been altered far beyond his thought of limits and potentials as a channeler. So for Rand A'lthor to casually show up in Tar Valon and allow himself( not knowing the results if he does so since the tower's inclinations are unclear and all too obviously been negative so far, the box, but maybe knowing the ramifications perhaps) to be so to speak quarantined from leaving due to TWO full circles , 26 Aes Sedai, not to mention a hundred warders, leaves little doubt and adequately a strong conclusion to be inferred that he is far beyond these concepts that have up till this moment been absolutely binding(for any male channeler Aol or not) and supersede them due to something inherently gained through his transformation on top of dragonmount, namely that he must be now the Light's dark ace in the hole beholden to no one and all powerful and only suspect in power when referred in context with Moridin , who will likely show in the next book his equivalence in power from the darkside. Only these two men could this point be adequately argued for since each of them is its side's representative for the Last Battle, thus inferring that both will have abilities far exceeding any male channelers thus far and to such an extent as to seem God-like in comparison. Give me ANY reference or quote stating that a full circle, 13, is lacking in adequate resources/power to hold ANY male Aes Sedai NO MATTER HIS POWER OR ABILITIES( including Forsaken)not to mention TWO full circles, something only exhibited in the Towers of Midnight. To perform such an incredible feat( breaking two circles of 26 aes sedai)is to be perceived as preposterous, unless one has gained the gifts of a power beyond anything thus seen and perhaps godlike but not referring to divine intervention, not meaning as some have argued just more intelligent weaves from LTT which defeat norms of aes sedai and likely would still be easily stopped by two full circles. When Egwene states that she had the sense he could have broken said two circles WITHOUT A STRUGGLE she is making a very profound statement in terms of his power, abilities, and confidence to do so since VOG. I'm not denying Moridin's equivalence to the Dragon Reborns new found power but merely stating it IS FAR beyond what we have ever seen or even considered and would only be granted to the two chosen ones destined for combat in the Last Battle. Thus my vote will be that, minus the statements in the poll to denote infinite access to the power and endless stamina in using it which are insubstantial as arguments to say the least and absurd reasoning and logic lacking evidence, I think Rand has achieved something perhaps unprecedented( perhaps not since we have no evidence of prior turning's of the wheel) or at the least something far beyond any male channeler can achieve with out being one of the two destined to fate to battle one another with duality like entities at the end of times. Dare you to provide such an extensive explanation as to be consciously able in awareness to diffuse this argument or lay it aside as merely an uncorrelated synopsis on this idea. I rest my case. :)

[Hopefire]

I would like to point out something

 

 

I rest my case. :)

 

 

 

 

 

On a completely different note (I assume), I agree that Rand faced down closer to a million Shadowspawn than not. Other anecdotal evidence is shown by the fact that two separate Great Captains both gave the immediate recommendation to pull out immediately (and one of whom had been defending the city tooth and nail, the other of whom called the city home) rather than bring in armies and Asha'man/Aes Sedai through gateways to reinforce the city. And of course, that the incoming army was "many times the number that had assaulted Maradon." I doubt that the defending armies started off any smaller than fifty thousand, since they were supposedly sufficient against anything short of the Trolloc Wars come again. Given what we've seen of Ituralde, I'd guess at the original force of Shadowspawn being 150-200k, with the new force being 600-1000+k.

 

When Rand started killing Shadowspawn, Ituralde's perspective indicates he was killing them by the thousands ("Thousands of Shadowspawn died"). That was even before the clouds started moving.

 

 

My biggest question: did the Fades break? Did Rand pinpoint them for death directly, causing the Trolloc horde to break faster and easier than it would have with Fades pushing them? Or did the Fades themselves decide it wasn't worth it and took off for more Blighted pastures?

[OptimusPrime]

Oh, this is going to be fun!

 

I would like to point out something unquoted from page 86 of The Towers of Midinight by Egwene after encountering the newly improved and Godlike Rand A'lthor Dragon Reborn. Egwene:"I doubt we could have held him. There's something about him . I ..I had the sense he could have broken that shield WITHOUT A STRUGGLE." Ok, so now I hope all of you would like to expurgate all of your half valid points after I expound this theory and idea of mine a little further. First off let's try and recall this encounter in its entirety. The Dragon, post VOG, all of a sudden appears in Tar Valon , seemingly the ABSOLUTE last place one would have found him and equivalent to having him appear at Shayol Ghul itself( perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but not by much considering). The dangers involved to the most important living entity to the Last Battle casually, almost negligently(from others perspective not the Dragon's) entering the domain of people who have since nearly the prologue of the series been antagonistic, even downright deliberately hostile and controlling, is for lack of a better word gargantuan not to mention it implies insanity in this person involved, unless he has all of a sudden progressed or been altered far beyond his thought of limits and potentials as a channeler. So for Rand A'lthor to casually show up in Tar Valon and allow himself( not knowing the results if he does so since the tower's inclinations are unclear and all too obviously been negative so far, the box, but maybe knowing the ramifications perhaps) to be so to speak quarantined from leaving due to TWO full circles , 26 Aes Sedai, not to mention a hundred warders, leaves little doubt and adequately a strong conclusion to be inferred that he is far beyond these concepts that have up till this moment been absolutely binding(for any male channeler Aol or not) and supersede them due to something inherently gained through his transformation on top of dragonmount, namely that he must be now the Light's dark ace in the hole beholden to no one and all powerful and only suspect in power when referred in context with Moridin , who will likely show in the next book his equivalence in power from the darkside. Only these two men could this point be adequately argued for since each of them is its side's representative for the Last Battle, thus inferring that both will have abilities far exceeding any male channelers thus far and to such an extent as to seem God-like in comparison. Give me ANY reference or quote stating that a full circle, 13, is lacking in adequate resources/power to hold ANY male Aes Sedai NO MATTER HIS POWER OR ABILITIES( including Forsaken)not to mention TWO full circles, something only exhibited in the Towers of Midnight. To perform such an incredible feat( breaking two circles of 26 aes sedai)is to be perceived as preposterous, unless one has gained the gifts of a power beyond anything thus seen and perhaps godlike but not referring to divine intervention, not meaning as some have argued just more intelligent weaves from LTT which defeat norms of aes sedai and likely would still be easily stopped by two full circles. When Egwene states that she had the sense he could have broken said two circles WITHOUT A STRUGGLE she is making a very profound statement in terms of his power, abilities, and confidence to do so since VOG. I'm not denying Moridin's equivalence to the Dragon Reborns new found power but merely stating it IS FAR beyond what we have ever seen or even considered and would only be granted to the two chosen ones destined for combat in the Last Battle. Thus my vote will be that, minus the statements in the poll to denote infinite access to the power and endless stamina in using it which are insubstantial as arguments to say the least and absurd reasoning and logic lacking evidence, I think Rand has achieved something perhaps unprecedented( perhaps not since we have no evidence of prior turning's of the wheel) or at the least something far beyond any male channeler can achieve with out being one of the two destined to fate to battle one another with duality like entities at the end of times. Dare you to provide such an extensive explanation as to be consciously able in awareness to diffuse this argument or lay it aside as merely an uncorrelated synopsis on this idea. I rest my case. :)

 

You can rest your case all you want but the fact of the matter is you seem to not have read TGS at all, not to mention that you are basing WAAAAAAY too much of your incorrect judgement on a single thought of Egwenes.

 

Rands decision to go to the White Tower, or his casualness, has absolutely NOTHING to do with his channeling ability.

 

-In TGS, before he went uber Dark, Rand met with Ituralde near the start, and Ituralde literally couldnt not agree with Rands proposal. Even in Ituraldes PoV he noted there was "a force to al'Thor." Remember this part.

 

-In TGS Rand subconsciously made a ton of food rot, but not only did he make it rot, he made the people of Arad Doman ONLY open the crates with rotten food in them. This correlates with the comment that his Ta'verenness was at the time negative-only. Only when he went back later and told them to open the rest did they find non-rotten food, and that was after VoG when he stopped being Moridin MkII.

 

-In TGS he pulled an accurate name out of a boy whose mind had been completely destroyed by Compulsion. By anyones standards other than Rands, that is impossible.

 

-In TGS, after he turned Dark, he ALMOST forced Tuon to accept his terms like he did with Ituralde, the only reason Tuon could resist is that she is very strong-willed and she knew to resist because Rand was pretty evil-looking in that encounter.

 

-In VoG, when hes about to destroy the whole thing, theres a torrent of winds flying around him. But when "Lews Therin" threw out the idea of Ilyena having been reborn the winds paused as Rand contemplated the possibility and ramifications. And then, after he was all fine and dandy and integrated and "sane" again... lo and behold, the clouds themselves parted above him.

 

Whats the point of all this, you're thinking?

 

The point is, that Rand spent an entire books worth of moodswings having it thrust in his face that his thoughts affects stuff. Dark thoughts, dark effects, pretty simple, yeah? And then in VoG he rediscovered his faith, which, just like most other stuff that goes on in his head, will affect the Pattern, and any thread therein.

 

It also goes down well to remember the Sea Folk, who waaay before even TGS started agreeing to terms of an agreement involuntarily, and they accused Rand of using the Power on them because of it. But he wasnt channeling. His will was making them say those things, his will alone and nothing else.

 

All Rand had to do at the Tower was have faith that the Aes Sedai wouldnt harm him, and they wouldnt, because the Pattern revolves around him. Egwene said in her thoughts she thought Rand could have broken free at any time, but her judgement on power levels means jack. The implication is that Egwene was wary of Rand not because of his power level, which she cant sense, but because there is a force to him as Ituralde said, which she could sense, as anyone can when it is at work. Its called being Ta'veren.

 

Only when he acknowledges a true threat will he ever be truly threatened. Otherwise, the Pattern and time will unfold in the way it always has, which is to say, his job is not simply to lead the forces of Light, but to remain faithful to his cause, and time will unfold as it should.

 

So if you want to call people on their "half valid points," Elan, you would do well to make some of your own that are worth their salt.

 

Peace

[aaron11]

Oh, this is going to be fun!

 

I would like to point out something unquoted from page 86 of The Towers of Midinight by Egwene after encountering the newly improved and Godlike Rand A'lthor Dragon Reborn. Egwene:"I doubt we could have held him. There's something about him . I ..I had the sense he could have broken that shield WITHOUT A STRUGGLE." Ok, so now I hope all of you would like to expurgate all of your half valid points after I expound this theory and idea of mine a little further. First off let's try and recall this encounter in its entirety. The Dragon, post VOG, all of a sudden appears in Tar Valon , seemingly the ABSOLUTE last place one would have found him and equivalent to having him appear at Shayol Ghul itself( perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but not by much considering). The dangers involved to the most important living entity to the Last Battle casually, almost negligently(from others perspective not the Dragon's) entering the domain of people who have since nearly the prologue of the series been antagonistic, even downright deliberately hostile and controlling, is for lack of a better word gargantuan not to mention it implies insanity in this person involved, unless he has all of a sudden progressed or been altered far beyond his thought of limits and potentials as a channeler. So for Rand A'lthor to casually show up in Tar Valon and allow himself( not knowing the results if he does so since the tower's inclinations are unclear and all too obviously been negative so far, the box, but maybe knowing the ramifications perhaps) to be so to speak quarantined from leaving due to TWO full circles , 26 Aes Sedai, not to mention a hundred warders, leaves little doubt and adequately a strong conclusion to be inferred that he is far beyond these concepts that have up till this moment been absolutely binding(for any male channeler Aol or not) and supersede them due to something inherently gained through his transformation on top of dragonmount, namely that he must be now the Light's dark ace in the hole beholden to no one and all powerful and only suspect in power when referred in context with Moridin , who will likely show in the next book his equivalence in power from the darkside. Only these two men could this point be adequately argued for since each of them is its side's representative for the Last Battle, thus inferring that both will have abilities far exceeding any male channelers thus far and to such an extent as to seem God-like in comparison. Give me ANY reference or quote stating that a full circle, 13, is lacking in adequate resources/power to hold ANY male Aes Sedai NO MATTER HIS POWER OR ABILITIES( including Forsaken)not to mention TWO full circles, something only exhibited in the Towers of Midnight. To perform such an incredible feat( breaking two circles of 26 aes sedai)is to be perceived as preposterous, unless one has gained the gifts of a power beyond anything thus seen and perhaps godlike but not referring to divine intervention, not meaning as some have argued just more intelligent weaves from LTT which defeat norms of aes sedai and likely would still be easily stopped by two full circles. When Egwene states that she had the sense he could have broken said two circles WITHOUT A STRUGGLE she is making a very profound statement in terms of his power, abilities, and confidence to do so since VOG. I'm not denying Moridin's equivalence to the Dragon Reborns new found power but merely stating it IS FAR beyond what we have ever seen or even considered and would only be granted to the two chosen ones destined for combat in the Last Battle. Thus my vote will be that, minus the statements in the poll to denote infinite access to the power and endless stamina in using it which are insubstantial as arguments to say the least and absurd reasoning and logic lacking evidence, I think Rand has achieved something perhaps unprecedented( perhaps not since we have no evidence of prior turning's of the wheel) or at the least something far beyond any male channeler can achieve with out being one of the two destined to fate to battle one another with duality like entities at the end of times. Dare you to provide such an extensive explanation as to be consciously able in awareness to diffuse this argument or lay it aside as merely an uncorrelated synopsis on this idea. I rest my case. :)

 

You can rest your case all you want but the fact of the matter is you seem to not have read TGS at all, not to mention that you are basing WAAAAAAY too much of your incorrect judgement on a single thought of Egwenes.

 

Rands decision to go to the White Tower, or his casualness, has absolutely NOTHING to do with his channeling ability.

 

-In TGS, before he went uber Dark, Rand met with Ituralde near the start, and Ituralde literally couldnt not agree with Rands proposal. Even in Ituraldes PoV he noted there was "a force to al'Thor." Remember this part.

 

-In TGS Rand subconsciously made a ton of food rot, but not only did he make it rot, he made the people of Arad Doman ONLY open the crates with rotten food in them. This correlates with the comment that his Ta'verenness was at the time negative-only. Only when he went back later and told them to open the rest did they find non-rotten food, and that was after VoG when he stopped being Moridin MkII.

 

-In TGS he pulled an accurate name out of a boy whose mind had been completely destroyed by Compulsion. By anyones standards other than Rands, that is impossible.

 

-In TGS, after he turned Dark, he ALMOST forced Tuon to accept his terms like he did with Ituralde, the only reason Tuon could resist is that she is very strong-willed and she knew to resist because Rand was pretty evil-looking in that encounter.

 

-In VoG, when hes about to destroy the whole thing, theres a torrent of winds flying around him. But when "Lews Therin" threw out the idea of Ilyena having been reborn the winds paused as Rand contemplated the possibility and ramifications. And then, after he was all fine and dandy and integrated and "sane" again... lo and behold, the clouds themselves parted above him.

 

Whats the point of all this, you're thinking?

 

The point is, that Rand spent an entire books worth of moodswings having it thrust in his face that his thoughts affects stuff. Dark thoughts, dark effects, pretty simple, yeah? And then in VoG he rediscovered his faith, which, just like most other stuff that goes on in his head, will affect the Pattern, and any thread therein.

 

It also goes down well to remember the Sea Folk, who waaay before even TGS started agreeing to terms of an agreement involuntarily, and they accused Rand of using the Power on them because of it. But he wasnt channeling. His will was making them say those things, his will alone and nothing else.

 

All Rand had to do at the Tower was have faith that the Aes Sedai wouldnt harm him, and they wouldnt, because the Pattern revolves around him. Egwene said in her thoughts she thought Rand could have broken free at any time, but her judgement on power levels means jack. The implication is that Egwene was wary of Rand not because of his power level, which she cant sense, but because there is a force to him as Ituralde said, which she could sense, as anyone can when it is at work. Its called being Ta'veren.

 

Only when he acknowledges a true threat will he ever be truly threatened. Otherwise, the Pattern and time will unfold in the way it always has, which is to say, his job is not simply to lead the forces of Light, but to remain faithful to his cause, and time will unfold as it should.

 

So if you want to call people on their "half valid points," Elan, you would do well to make some of your own that are worth their salt.

 

Peace

 

 

^this

 

he totally owned your assumption

[WhiskyJack]

“I doubt we could have held him,” Egwene said. “There’s something about him. I…I had the sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle.”

 

I think Eqwene clarifies that assertion here:

 

A good soup

 

“He has changed, though,” Siuan said thoughtfully. “You said so yourself.” “Yes,” Nynaeve said. “The Aiel say he’s embraced death.” “I’ve heard that from them, too,” Egwene said. “But I looked into his eyes, and something else has changed, something inexplicable. The man I saw…” “He didn’t seem like one to destroy Natrin’s Barrow?” Siuan shivered as she thought of that. “The man I saw wouldn’t need to destroy such a place,” Egwene said. “Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was.”

 

Now the underlined part is simpler explanation that super channeling.

[Lisa Campbell]

I would like to point out something unquoted from page 86 of The Towers of Midinight by Egwene after encountering the newly improved and Godlike Rand A'lthor Dragon Reborn. Egwene:"I doubt we could have held him. There's something about him . I ..I had the sense he could have broken that shield WITHOUT A STRUGGLE." Ok, so now I hope all of you would like to expurgate all of your half valid points after I expound this theory and idea of mine a little further. First off let's try and recall this encounter in its entirety. The Dragon, post VOG, all of a sudden appears in Tar Valon , seemingly the ABSOLUTE last place one would have found him and equivalent to having him appear at Shayol Ghul itself( perhaps a bit of an exaggeration but not by much considering). The dangers involved to the most important living entity to the Last Battle casually, almost negligently(from others perspective not the Dragon's) entering the domain of people who have since nearly the prologue of the series been antagonistic, even downright deliberately hostile and controlling, is for lack of a better word gargantuan not to mention it implies insanity in this person involved, unless he has all of a sudden progressed or been altered far beyond his thought of limits and potentials as a channeler. So for Rand A'lthor to casually show up in Tar Valon and allow himself( not knowing the results if he does so since the tower's inclinations are unclear and all too obviously been negative so far, the box, but maybe knowing the ramifications perhaps) to be so to speak quarantined from leaving due to TWO full circles , 26 Aes Sedai, not to mention a hundred warders, leaves little doubt and adequately a strong conclusion to be inferred that he is far beyond these concepts that have up till this moment been absolutely binding(for any male channeler Aol or not) and supersede them due to something inherently gained through his transformation on top of dragonmount, namely that he must be now the Light's dark ace in the hole beholden to no one and all powerful and only suspect in power when referred in context with Moridin , who will likely show in the next book his equivalence in power from the darkside. Only these two men could this point be adequately argued for since each of them is its side's representative for the Last Battle, thus inferring that both will have abilities far exceeding any male channelers thus far and to such an extent as to seem God-like in comparison. Give me ANY reference or quote stating that a full circle, 13, is lacking in adequate resources/power to hold ANY male Aes Sedai NO MATTER HIS POWER OR ABILITIES( including Forsaken)not to mention TWO full circles, something only exhibited in the Towers of Midnight. To perform such an incredible feat( breaking two circles of 26 aes sedai)is to be perceived as preposterous, unless one has gained the gifts of a power beyond anything thus seen and perhaps godlike but not referring to divine intervention, not meaning as some have argued just more intelligent weaves from LTT which defeat norms of aes sedai and likely would still be easily stopped by two full circles. When Egwene states that she had the sense he could have broken said two circles WITHOUT A STRUGGLE she is making a very profound statement in terms of his power, abilities, and confidence to do so since VOG. I'm not denying Moridin's equivalence to the Dragon Reborns new found power but merely stating it IS FAR beyond what we have ever seen or even considered and would only be granted to the two chosen ones destined for combat in the Last Battle. Thus my vote will be that, minus the statements in the poll to denote infinite access to the power and endless stamina in using it which are insubstantial as arguments to say the least and absurd reasoning and logic lacking evidence, I think Rand has achieved something perhaps unprecedented( perhaps not since we have no evidence of prior turning's of the wheel) or at the least something far beyond any male channeler can achieve with out being one of the two destined to fate to battle one another with duality like entities at the end of times. Dare you to provide such an extensive explanation as to be consciously able in awareness to diffuse this argument or lay it aside as merely an uncorrelated synopsis on this idea. I rest my case. :)

 

Just decided to catch up with this thread and I did endure to read the entirety of your post but seriously, how do you expect anyone to debate or agree with what you have said? I don't doubt your intelligence and I know there were some good points in there but my eyes are still goggling and I refuse to subject them to the strain of trying to find them again in order to get back to you.

 

I understand the need to get your thoughts on the page ASAP but please, for the sake of other members, your collegues, hesitate before clicking on post to read through what you have written, edit and paragraph it. Who knows, you'll probably find that something you had on your mind was forgotten in the whirlwind of your first draft.

 

Don't get me wrong, I know that you have intelligent messages to impart, but I already need an aspro just to keep looking tonight and, I only logged on 10 minutes ago.

[Pinzarn]

I just sum it all as the difference between "thinking you are the Dragon Reborn" and "being the Dragon Reborn".

[Entreri]

I just sum it all as the difference between "thinking you are the Dragon Reborn" and "being the Dragon Reborn".

 

He has gained abilities that he did not have in AoL.

 

(1) DR has the "Light" protecting his mind from the taint. LTT did not have this, otherwise he would not have gone mad.

 

(2) When he wields the Power in great amounts, the Light drives DF'S mad. Normally they cannot look at him.

 

(3) He is able to affect the Pattern (Apples), we are uncertain if LTT had a similar ability.

 

DR = LTT 2.0.

 

Rand > LTT.

 

LTT > Ishamael OP.

 

Ishamael TP > LTT.

 

 

Rand > Moridin or is Mordin > Rand? RAFO.

[Samborob]

So your implying his taveren nature is now perhaps stronger due to the transformation in VOG. Interesting. So you think he could break both circles by exerting his good-naturedness and will upon the women to just up and break the circle on their own volition. I must agree that it is somewhat likely that his Tavereness has increased in a hugely positive manner and may have done so as to be capable of effecting people into doing what is right and in his favor.

 

I still dont fully believe it but it does make some sense, however, I still propose that Maradon was a unique viewpoint into the depths of what the new Dragon can exert in raw power and just find it hard to believe that people in power just below him, such as Logain or Rahvin or even ishamael(not moridin)could have exhibited the same moves. I think Moridin would be able to do so but only because these two are specially linked to an outward manifestation of the fight between light /dark. Not because they are simply the worlds two best male channellers.

[WhiskyJack]

So your implying his taveren nature is now perhaps stronger due to the transformation in VOG. Interesting. So you think he could break both circles by exerting his good-naturedness and will upon the women to just up and break the circle on their own volition. I must agree that it is somewhat likely that his Tavereness has increased in a hugely positive manner and may have done so as to be capable of effecting people into doing what is right and in his favor.

 

 

 

 

That is how Eqwene puts it. Because he is. And I think he rubs people both ways. Those who hate him probably will hate him even more.

[cookiecrisp]

There must've been something close to a million shadowspawn and not a negligible amount of dreadlords (sounded like there must have been at least 4), if the bombing of the wall at Maradon is any indication.

 

Perhaps wielding the light gives Rand some sort of strength. RJ has said Rand would wield the light again as he had in EotW, and I think this is probably his first battle scene with the light since EotW.

 

I don't think this light protecting him is like the TP. People who can't wield the light can see it when he channels. His channeling causes their discomfort. I doubt the light is some other sort of Power. I also doubt one can wield TP/OP at the same time and meld flows with themselves as if they were linked with a Saidin/Saidar wielder.

 

I'm going with 1. There just has to be something with his ridiculous powers. If great AoL channelers could do that, the Shadow wouldn't have been winning the War of Power with just ~40 Forsaken. A single powerful AS, especially with the stores of sa'angreal they had at their disposal, would be able to route billions of shadowspawn. A circle of very powerful channelers with Callandor would take trillions upon trillions of shadowspawn to defeat.

 

The world, including the oceans, could not hold enough shadow spawn to stop a large circle wielding callandor from dismantling the armies of the night. It would take a ball of shadowspawn the size of the sun to even give a serious AoL AS force pause if this was truly possible simply by raw talent and knowledge from the AoL.

 

Simply put, if the hundred companions (who were very powerful) were capable of doing this, they would have come to Shayol Ghul and annihilated the Shadow, not sealed the DO.

[FarShainMael]

When Darth Rand was operating, his ta'veren effects were distinctly negative IIRC. So perhaps it has turned good with VoG.

 

Edited: Yes in TGS29 his PoV comments on it, after a balcony collapses in Bandar Eban as they ride in:

 

That had not been caused by the Power, but by his ta'veren nature changing probability. Wherever he visited, remarkable and random events occurred. Large numbers of births, deaths, weddings and accidents. He had learned to ignore them.

 

He had rarely seen an occurrence quite so.. violent, however. Could he be sure it wasn't some interaction with the new force? That unseen yet tempting well of power Rand had tapped, used, and enjoyed?

[WhiskyJack]

There must've been something close to a million shadowspawn and not a negligible amount of dreadlords (sounded like there must have been at least 4), if the bombing of the wall at Maradon is any indication.

 

Perhaps wielding the light gives Rand some sort of strength. RJ has said Rand would wield the light again as he had in EotW, and I think this is probably his first battle scene with the light since EotW.

 

I don't think this light protecting him is like the TP. People who can't wield the light can see it when he channels. His channeling causes their discomfort. I doubt the light is some other sort of Power. I also doubt one can wield TP/OP at the same time and meld flows with themselves as if they were linked with a Saidin/Saidar wielder.

 

I'm going with 1. There just has to be something with his ridiculous powers. If great AoL channelers could do that, the Shadow wouldn't have been winning the War of Power with just ~40 Forsaken. A single powerful AS, especially with the stores of sa'angreal they had at their disposal, would be able to route billions of shadowspawn. A circle of very powerful channelers with Callandor would take trillions upon trillions of shadowspawn to defeat.

 

The world, including the oceans, could not hold enough shadow spawn to stop a large circle wielding callandor from dismantling the armies of the night. It would take a ball of shadowspawn the size of the sun to even give a serious AoL AS force pause if this was truly possible simply by raw talent and knowledge from the AoL.

 

Simply put, if the hundred companions (who were very powerful) were capable of doing this, they would have come to Shayol Ghul and annihilated the Shadow, not sealed the DO.

 

 

We have seen no evidence that shadow had only 40 or so channelers (all forsaken). Just look at this age. Besides, back then they used weapons created by one power. LTT marched with 113 male Aes Sedai when he attacked SG. Probably a very small fraction of total channelers. In a world where even .01% people can channel, out of 1 billion, that would be 100000 channelers! And these people lived a long life. Nah, in AoL, they probably had armies of channelers on both sides.

 

P.S: LTT didn't use Callandor in war.

[Thor]

LTT unaided made dragonmount. Yes he ODed, but let's say he took in 3 times of his maximum, a third of the dragonmount is still enough to destroy the shadow's forces at Maradon.

[Kahsm]

Hrm, a lot has happened here that I didn't notice. Hang on while I catch up with my own thread.

 

I would like to point out something unquoted from page 86 of The Towers of Midinight by Egwene after encountering the newly improved and Godlike Rand A'lthor Dragon Reborn. Egwene:"I doubt we could have held him. There's something about him . I ..I had the sense he could have broken that shield WITHOUT A STRUGGLE." Ok, so now I hope all of you would like to expurgate all of your half valid points after I expound this theory and idea of mine a little further ... I rest my case. :)

 

This has been brought up a million times in various threads about shielding, channeling, and the like. It's fairly well accepted, as others have already mentioned, that Egwene doesn't know wtf she's talking about. It is her IMPRESSION of the situation and not a statement of fact.

 

Before you and others freak out, I AM NOT SAYING HE COULD NOT DO IT. I am not. I am just saying that Egwene, is not the authority to be able to say he could. So it is at most, inconclusive. And I am probably the most fervent Egwene defender on DM, but she's clueless on this matter.

 

When Rand started killing Shadowspawn, Ituralde's perspective indicates he was killing them by the thousands ("Thousands of Shadowspawn died"). That was even before the clouds started moving.

 

My biggest question: did the Fades break? Did Rand pinpoint them for death directly, causing the Trolloc horde to break faster and easier than it would have with Fades pushing them? Or did the Fades themselves decide it wasn't worth it and took off for more Blighted pastures?

 

Well, he said it first, then he described what was happening. Text in a book is linear, but that doesn't really mean it was so orderly as it's described.

 

It was all fairly non-targeted, though I assume Fades would have been hit. And has been mentioned, "Legions" fled. It's not like only a handful escaped death. I'd propose that an overwhelming majority fled. Rand just broke them quickly. Moir (or maybe it was Lan?) said even Fades wouldn't enter Shadar Logoth unless a forsaken was there driving them. So we know Fades can be unwilling to press forward too. It's entirely possible they also fled, taking their fists with them.

 

“I doubt we could have held him,” Egwene said. “There’s something about him. I…I had the sense he could have broken that shield without a struggle.”

 

I think Eqwene clarifies that assertion here:

 

A good soup

 

“He has changed, though,” Siuan said thoughtfully. “You said so yourself.” “Yes,” Nynaeve said. “The Aiel say he’s embraced death.” “I’ve heard that from them, too,” Egwene said. “But I looked into his eyes, and something else has changed, something inexplicable. The man I saw…” “He didn’t seem like one to destroy Natrin’s Barrow?” Siuan shivered as she thought of that. “The man I saw wouldn’t need to destroy such a place,” Egwene said. “Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was.”

 

Now the underlined part is simpler explanation that super channeling.

 

At first I was like "wtf WhiskyJack's account has been hacked" cause I thought you were going against me here. But I see you're saying Egwene statement wasn't about Rand's strength but that he could jsut demand they release him and therefore not about channeling at all. I gotcha. Don't agree with that either (I'm still in the "how the hell would she know?!" camp), but irrelevant to this thread I guess so I'll agree in support of my original thesis here ;)

 

I just sum it all as the difference between "thinking you are the Dragon Reborn" and "being the Dragon Reborn".

 

He has gained abilities that he did not have in AoL.

 

(1) DR has the "Light" protecting his mind from the taint. LTT did not have this, otherwise he would not have gone mad.

(2) When he wields the Power in great amounts, the Light drives DF'S mad. Normally they cannot look at him.

(3) He is able to affect the Pattern (Apples), we are uncertain if LTT had a similar ability.

 

DR = LTT 2.0

Rand > LTT

LTT > Ishamael OP

Ishamael TP > LTT

Rand > Moridin or is Mordin > Rand? RAFO.

First of all, number 3 is not true at all. LTT very much had that power. The prophecy says "The Dragon is one with the land" and that means LTT.

 

Thanks to Luckers, BS even confirmed it:

WoTLuckers: Was LTT one with the land like Rand is?

Brandon: "The Dragon is one with the land...so the answer is yes."

He went on to say that it says the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn, making the point that it most definitely applied to LTT.

 

Number 2 is a correlation relationship, not a causal one. There's no proof that the channeling causes the Light. Was Rand embraced when he weeded the dark friends out in Tear, or does he have some other method of control over the "Light"? It's not known. They could be two separate things.

 

Number one is true, but again not necessarily effecting his channeling in any way. Though I have wondered if it "frees his mind". The taint may have restricted his control in some way and was holding him back. But that would put him where he should be, not above it.

 

The forsaken had access to the TP in the AoL, so your theory being based on some sort of continuing "balance" doesn't work.

 

So your implying his taveren nature is now perhaps stronger due to the transformation in VOG. Interesting. So you think he could break both circles by exerting his good-naturedness and will upon the women to just up and break the circle on their own volition. I must agree that it is somewhat likely that his Tavereness has increased in a hugely positive manner and may have done so as to be capable of effecting people into doing what is right and in his favor.

 

That is how Eqwene puts it. Because he is. And I think he rubs people both ways. Those who hate him probably will hate him even more.

 

There was a question asked after Rand channeled TP and then failed to influence Tuon if in channeling TP he had lost some of his Ta'veren mojo:

Q: After Rand has channeled the True Power, he has a dark cloud around him. When he meets with Tuon after this, she manages to resist his ta’veren pull. Is this because the True Power has reduced his ta’veren mojo?

A: The reason she manages to resist is that she has a lot of willpower. Rand is just as ta’veren as ever.

 

I mention this because "just as ta'veren as ever" could very well imply that he's not any stronger either. He just "is". Now Tuon's meeting was pre-VoG sure, but the question was posed during the book tour, which is after we'd have read about VoG. Also "as ta'veren as ever" kidna suggets he's at the top already. It's not strong evidence, I know. Food for thought.

 

Perhaps wielding the light gives Rand some sort of strength. RJ has said Rand would wield the light again as he had in EotW, and I think this is probably his first battle scene with the light since EotW.

 

[...]

 

I'm going with 1. There just has to be something with his ridiculous powers. If great AoL channelers could do that, the Shadow wouldn't have been winning the War of Power with just ~40 Forsaken. A single powerful AS, especially with the stores of sa'angreal they had at their disposal, would be able to route billions of shadowspawn. A circle of very powerful channelers with Callandor would take trillions upon trillions of shadowspawn to defeat.

 

Simply put, if the hundred companions (who were very powerful) were capable of doing this, they would have come to Shayol Ghul and annihilated the Shadow, not sealed the DO.

 

The EotW was an artificial creation by AoL Aes Sedai remnants. In another thread, I hijacked a theory that Rand has always had the gold stuff in his brain since the EotW channeling, that that's why the EotW was created, only now (with full LTT memories) he understands what it was. I just don't see how the "Light" from an artificial well (though big and powerful) could somehow be related to the CotL through the pattern or the creator... I think the fact that the author linked the light back to what we saw at TEotW actually makes it LESS likely to be something related to him being the CotL, since the eye was completely artificial.

 

The reason they didn't just do that in the AoL is because they had hundreds of Rand's on both sides, or nearly-rand. It looks impressive because Rand is the only one doing it right now. But just because Rand and Ishy were top doesn't mean there weren't other Darkfriends/Dreadlords/Forsaken that were nipping at their heals. We recently got confirmation from Brandon that Forsaken (the top 13) were chosen more for their talents and specialties than pure OP strength (which always made more sense to me, and I had argued in a 'how strong is semi' thread!).

 

Brandon: In choosing the Forsaken, the Dark One was careful…um, the very nature of it led to people with great talent in many areas being chosen. They are extraordinary in many areas, and having talents that others do not have, beyond being powerful channelers.

Terez: We’re talking about the thirteen that were at Shayol Ghul…

Brandon: Yeah. …this is what led to them being at the top of the heap. That said, I do believe that, among the Forsaken, there are some who had to use gateways to get there…but the majority of the Forsaken are very talented in many areas.

 

Rand comments after Maradon that he was being foolish, that if a forsaken attacked at that moment he wouldn't be able to compete. Well that's your answer right there. Plus, even if you think Rand is godly, I'm sure you feel that 100+ male, AoL, Aes Sedai could have done something similar, so you could ask the same question, why didn't they? Well because the nature of the fight was completely different back that. It wasn't about how many trollocs you could slaughter.

 

LTT unaided made dragonmount. Yes he ODed, but let's say he took in 3 times of his maximum, a third of the dragonmount is still enough to destroy the shadow's forces at Maradon.

 

I've pointed out similar in the past and this argument never seems to fly. Which I understand, it's quite subjective. But I do tend to agree. But here's another similar analogy! When the male Aes Sedai went nuts they REARRANGED THE FACE OF THE WORLD. That's powerful stuff... Oh, and no women went nuts, so the men did that without linking.

[damandred]

Isn't there a mention in SR that one male channeler destroyed 10 thousand aiel then destroyed the second largest city in the word. As for rands new powers I think that after VoG the pattern focused on rand more than ever. It would not while he was bad rand, but once he fixed himself then the pattern realy is all about him apart from mat and perrin. The dark one is sickening the land and rand is the cure his very presance puts the world back to its natural state and away from the DO s unatural influence.I think part of his sacrafice will be giving himself to the land to make it healthy.

[WhiskyJack]

Isn't there a mention in SR that one male channeler destroyed 10 thousand aiel then destroyed the second largest city in the word. As for rands new powers I think that after VoG the pattern focused on rand more than ever. It would not while he was bad rand, but once he fixed himself then the pattern realy is all about him apart from mat and perrin. The dark one is sickening the land and rand is the cure his very presance puts the world back to its natural state and away from the DO s unatural influence.I think part of his sacrafice will be giving himself to the land to make it healthy.

 

 

I was thinking exact same thing. We think that killing 10000 people will be a bi deal hence what Rand did in Maradon was godly but probably whacking 10k people was quite easy for above average male Aes Sedai. And they had plenty of those in AoL. Remember, whole cities were balefired in AoL and that was without CK.

[damandred]

Yes, BUT, remember 100 Asha-man couldn't hold back the trollics before rand showed up. Maybe it was an AoL thing naef had never saw so many flows woven together. But I don't think the average AoL channeler could of done the same even then LTT was unique. That said Lanfear didn't seem too concerned that she was surrounded by an army of aiel when she attacked avi and Egwene in FoH. She wasn't average too though.

[WhiskyJack]

Yes, BUT, remember 100 Asha-man couldn't hold back the trollics before rand showed up. Maybe it was an AoL thing naef had never saw so many flows woven together. But I don't think the average AoL channeler could of done the same even then LTT was unique. That said Lanfear didn't seem too concerned that she was surrounded by an army of aiel when she attacked avi and Egwene in FoH. She wasn't average too though.

 

It is all theoretical but comparing modern channelers who have less than 1.5 years (in many case far less) of training with those who lived during of AoL (many for centuries) would be disingenuous. In AoL, knowledge in one power was at its peak and here, without Rand, they wouldn't even know how to travel. But as I said in the beginning, it is all theoretical. If LTT was that remarkable then Light would have had won. Instead they were on the brink of annihilation.

[Dai Aldazar]

I went with Number 2 as I do not think Rand is anywhere close to the creator. I felt he is far stronger/skilled than anyone else, the veil over his past lives was lifted as a reward from the creator for not destroying the pattern.

 

1. It is very likely that pre-VoG Rand just plan and simply had not reached his full potential. Why it is possible that post-VoG Rand has not reached his full potential.

 

2. I have begun toying with the thought that pre-VoG Rand may have had a block. We now that most wilders have blocks (Nynaeve, Theodrin, Tarna, Fedwin Morr). We are given the impression that Taim is a wilder but we really do not know one way or the other so I'll leave the arguments for that in their own threads. Rand considers himself to be a normal person. Since the beginning Rand has been in denial and actually fulfills prophecy in an attempt to prove that he is not the Dragon. But in reality he is not just the Dragon Reborn he is also the CoL. He does not want to be the Dragon Reborn so he limits his strength to the top of the normal range. It is quit possible that LTT had the same block as he did not know that he was the CoL.

 

3. He is The strongest Ta'veren, The CoL and The Dragon Soul - If he needs it the pattern just turns up the dial on his access to the one power.

 

Rand always seems to be able to channel what he needs to accomplish his task - when he can channel. Yes sometimes he has an angreal or sa'angreal to give him a boost. Not once that I can recall did he start channeling and after a few moments stop and look at everybody and say "Sorry can't do it, I just don't have enough juice to get it done." His fight with Asmodean while holding the choeden khan was close but he still pulled it off.

 

During VoG one or more things happened.

1. He reached his max potential.

2. His block was removed because he is at peace with being The strongest Ta'veren, The CoL and The Dragon Soul.

3. It is one minute to TG and the pattern cranked the OP dial to max volume.

 

Combine his strength with his post-VoG knowledge and skill from all of his previous incarnations not just LTT and not only can he do more with less power but he has more power too.

 

As far as the meeting with Tuon I think that was his will losing out to the pattern because Egwene was not the Amyrlin Seat yet. Had the Tower Aes Sedai done something about Elaida then the pattern would have forced Tuon to accept him. But Elaida needed to be removed. We have been told time and again that being ta'veren does not mean things happen the way you want. It means the pattern is shaped around you for what is needed. The pattern absolutely bent around him in that encounter, just not the way he wanted.

[Mulk]

As far as the meeting with Tuon I think that was his will losing out to the pattern because Egwene was not the Amyrlin Seat yet. Had the Tower Aes Sedai done something about Elaida then the pattern would have forced Tuon to accept him. But Elaida needed to be removed. We have been told time and again that being ta'veren does not mean things happen the way you want. It means the pattern is shaped around you for what is needed. The pattern absolutely bent around him in that encounter, just not the way he wanted.

 

I found this last paragraph to be interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't know that I agree yet, haven't fully thought it over, but it's definitely worth considering.