Let's talk about Taim, Baby

[FarShainMael]

The phrase 'so-called Aiel' only turns up twice in all the books so far, according to IdealSeek: ACoS20, which is the one you mention, and LoC11, where Taim uses the phrase. However, something very similar does turn up in the Aiel Prophecies, according to Bair, in TSR34:

 

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

Speculate wildly on what this means about Moridin, Taim, and for that matter, Bair..

[TheAngryDruid]

Well, I'm firmly in the Taim = Moridin camp.

 

Too much 2nd age speech/knowledge: knowing how to test for the ability, so-called Aiel. Mirroring Rand in the way he stands and mysteriously developing something like a Warder's grace where he disdained a sword before. The Sigil indicating rank equal to (if not above) two other Forsaken.

 

Plus, the fact that leaving a 3rd ager in charge of hundreds of channelers just doesn't seem to fit the Forsaken MO (Mesaana in the Tower, Semi with the Seanchan). I know Osan'gar was there, but his job was Rand, not the Tower. Kind of like Aran'gar's job was Egwene, while Mesaana had the Tower.

 

Look at Moggy with Liandrin's group, she wants to limit their knowledge and power, because she sees them as potential threats. I can't see a Forsaken (even Ishy) giving a potential rival an extensive amount of knowledge, items of power (dreamspike), and control over the most dangerous group of channelers on the planet.

 

Yes, there are powerful counter arguments, Time and conflicting orders. On the first, we've already seen vacuoles where the flow of time is altered. And alternate worlds as well. Not to mention T'A'R. We now Moridin has a great stash of nifty items. A ter'angreal of some type is also a possibility. Still, the flow of time has been altered numerous times. It's a stretch, but he could be getting it done.

 

As for the conflicting orders. He IS insane, remember. And he's already fluctuated back and forth in his own mind several times on if to kill Rand or not.

[Entreri]

^Yes. Many years ago, speculation was ripe that Taim being Demandred. I was in that camp. Alas, that wonderful theory was proven wrong.

 

I am now in the Taim=Moridin camp. It makes sense, so many clues...

 

Can't wait for AMOL to see what theories are correct.

[Negawonka]

I still think that Taim is a pawn trained by Demandred to be his proxy. Yes I know that Taim was obviously a grown man before Demandred was freed, but Demandred probably rushed to find someone for that purpose as soon as he learned a few things about the new age. He at least believes himself to be more cunning than the other chosen (and I am inclined to believe that he is at least very cunning) and a cunning person would realize the untapped power of male channelers in this age. Didn't he mention something about that was how war was in Winter's Heart - one side constantly looking for a way to surprise the other side? The best way to do that would be to set up a proxy in charge of a black tower similar to the white tower - it would be too big to hide it.

 

Since Demandred probably has at the least grumbled out loud about reports given to him by Taim, I can see the phrase "so called Aiel" being something Taim picked up.

[OptimusPrime]

I put my wager on Taim=Ishamael

 

Our numbers are growing...

 

[Taelin]

^Yes. Many years ago, speculation was ripe that Taim being Demandred. I was in that camp. Alas, that wonderful theory was proven wrong.

 

I am now in the Taim=Moridin camp. It makes sense, so many clues...

 

Can't wait for AMOL to see what theories are correct.

 

I hate to throw some water on your fire... When Rand was in Far Madding, some renegade Asha'man were hunting him. From the point of view of one of them (can't remember which, and can;t look it up now)

 

"Kill him," said Taim.

 

"Kill him!" Said Demandred.

 

"Kill him if you must, but bring what he has to me," said Moridin.

 

This clearly shows that Taim is not Moridin, and since were were told directly by RJ that Demo was not Taim despite their similarities (Taim hates being 2nd to Radn, just like Demandred did to LTT), then the Taim emulating Demandred theory is stronger. I'm sticking with my theory that Kash is really Demandred. Although it's not clearly stated, it seems reasonable that the forced conversion of channelers (male and female) started at about the same time as Kash's arrival and climb to the top.

[OptimusPrime]

^Yes. Many years ago, speculation was ripe that Taim being Demandred. I was in that camp. Alas, that wonderful theory was proven wrong.

 

I am now in the Taim=Moridin camp. It makes sense, so many clues...

 

Can't wait for AMOL to see what theories are correct.

 

I hate to throw some water on your fire... When Rand was in Far Madding, some renegade Asha'man were hunting him. From the point of view of one of them (can't remember which, and can;t look it up now)

 

"Kill him," said Taim.

 

"Kill him!" Said Demandred.

 

"Kill him if you must, but bring what he has to me," said Moridin.

 

This clearly shows that Taim is not Moridin

 

Hahaha

 

Wars have been waged over this. You could check out the thread herid made on the subject of Taim=Moridin if you're interested, but IMO there are several ways to explain the double order against Rand

[cookiecrisp]

I think the "so called Aiel" phrase would probably be translated as "so called dedicated."

 

It may be a mock against the Aiel who have turned their backs nearly completely on what the Aiel of the AoL were dedicated to.

 

It may also be used in sneering fashion by a man who doesn't understand what a bunch of savages would be dedicated to.

[Taelin]

"a chance to compare notes with Egwene" Meh. Egwene is at best third rate at TAR compared to Slayer and 2nd rate compared to Perrin. She would get molested so badly in TAR by the Slayer, it will not be a pretty sight. Probably even worse than if she fought Rand or Ishamael in an OP battle.

 

Perrin needs to man up and become a true hunter/wolf in TAR in order to have any hope against THE SLAYER/RULER SUPREME OF TAR.

 

 

 

 

I put my wager on Taim=Ishamael. Book 10 or 11 nailed it, his meeting with that AS woman.

 

Who in this Age has that kind of dominating presence beside Rand? The new Ishamael. Well, even the old Ishamael, the Forsaken were afraid of him and he had the presence.

 

Taim makes even the likes of Mat, Egwene, Perrin, Logain seem at best pretend leaders.

 

 

 

Due to the value of the ter'angreal, it is doubtful he would just hand that over to someone who is just similar to Logain.

 

Among many other clues, only the Forsaken call the Aiel "so-called", which Taim did way back in book 6...and since he cannot be Demandred.

 

 

Logain is in trouble. If it is indeed Ishamael, he is no match whatsoever.

 

I've never had this impression about Taim. He is represented throughout the story as a bully, albeit a powerful one. Bashere was definitely not afraid of him when he first appeared, and was ready to rip his throat out with his own teeth.

 

Quite the contrary, there are several characters in the story that are described as having an air about them that men would follow (the strongest being the newly transformed Rand): Tam, Perrin, Jaged Agelmar, Itiduralde, Rhuarc, Cadsuane, Sorilea, and even Lan. Each of these is portrayed as a stronger leader than Taim. I just don't buy him being Moridin/Ishamael, who has always had an air about him that seems to be a living shadow.

 

Here's another point to that affect, when Taim is introduced to the story line. Rand states he will take Taim to the farm.

 

"Farm?" said Taim.

 

Rand continues speaking with someone else on another topic, completely ignoring Taim.

 

"What farm?" Taim asks again, I believe a little peaved at being ignored.

 

Rand continues addressing others, and when he's finished he gates to the farm and pretty much treats Taim with an "are you coming?" look.

 

Taim is described as being close in the power to Rand, but Rand learns faster. Ishamael was reportedly LTT's equal in power. Moridin is also reputed to be using the True Power almost exclusively in order to gain so many saa so quickly (remember that he has only one when he is first introduced, but has a "blizzard" of them now). Taim states that he could have been the DR if he could have made one prophecy come true, a weak point for a philosopher from the AoL to make. But what he never had is an air of natural leadership. Even at the end of ToM, he is portrayed more as a self-possessed, pompous ass than anything else, but even then Pevara's only personal reaction to him is one that can be attributed to a Red's opinion of a man who can channel. Heck, even Mat's fat horse-thief/scout can't recall his name at the moment) has a stronger air of danger about hi than Taim.

 

I believe Taim is nothing more than a modern day dreadlord; there have been dreadlords in the past without gaining "Chosen" status. In fact, I think Alviarin has come closer to this than anyone.

[Lisa Campbell]

"a chance to compare notes with Egwene" Meh. Egwene is at best third rate at TAR compared to Slayer and 2nd rate compared to Perrin. She would get molested so badly in TAR by the Slayer, it will not be a pretty sight. Probably even worse than if she fought Rand or Ishamael in an OP battle.

 

Perrin needs to man up and become a true hunter/wolf in TAR in order to have any hope against THE SLAYER/RULER SUPREME OF TAR.

 

 

 

 

I put my wager on Taim=Ishamael. Book 10 or 11 nailed it, his meeting with that AS woman.

 

Who in this Age has that kind of dominating presence beside Rand? The new Ishamael. Well, even the old Ishamael, the Forsaken were afraid of him and he had the presence.

 

Taim makes even the likes of Mat, Egwene, Perrin, Logain seem at best pretend leaders.

 

 

 

Due to the value of the ter'angreal, it is doubtful he would just hand that over to someone who is just similar to Logain.

 

Among many other clues, only the Forsaken call the Aiel "so-called", which Taim did way back in book 6...and since he cannot be Demandred.

 

 

Logain is in trouble. If it is indeed Ishamael, he is no match whatsoever.

 

I've never had this impression about Taim. He is represented throughout the story as a bully, albeit a powerful one. Bashere was definitely not afraid of him when he first appeared, and was ready to rip his throat out with his own teeth.

 

Quite the contrary, there are several characters in the story that are described as having an air about them that men would follow (the strongest being the newly transformed Rand): Tam, Perrin, Jaged Agelmar, Itiduralde, Rhuarc, Cadsuane, Sorilea, and even Lan. Each of these is portrayed as a stronger leader than Taim. I just don't buy him being Moridin/Ishamael, who has always had an air about him that seems to be a living shadow.

 

Here's another point to that affect, when Taim is introduced to the story line. Rand states he will take Taim to the farm.

 

"Farm?" said Taim.

 

Rand continues speaking with someone else on another topic, completely ignoring Taim.

 

"What farm?" Taim asks again, I believe a little peaved at being ignored.

 

Rand continues addressing others, and when he's finished he gates to the farm and pretty much treats Taim with an "are you coming?" look.

 

Taim is described as being close in the power to Rand, but Rand learns faster. Ishamael was reportedly LTT's equal in power. Moridin is also reputed to be using the True Power almost exclusively in order to gain so many saa so quickly (remember that he has only one when he is first introduced, but has a "blizzard" of them now). Taim states that he could have been the DR if he could have made one prophecy come true, a weak point for a philosopher from the AoL to make. But what he never had is an air of natural leadership. Even at the end of ToM, he is portrayed more as a self-possessed, pompous ass than anything else, but even then Pevara's only personal reaction to him is one that can be attributed to a Red's opinion of a man who can channel. Heck, even Mat's fat horse-thief/scout can't recall his name at the moment) has a stronger air of danger about hi than Taim.

 

I believe Taim is nothing more than a modern day dreadlord; there have been dreadlords in the past without gaining "Chosen" status. In fact, I think Alviarin has come closer to this than anyone.

 

I don't think Pevara's reaction is "typical Red". She is not a typical Red which is why she is at the Black Tower to propose bonding Ashaman in the first place. Seeing the "evil shadow" around Taim would be possible for any channeler I believe. Rand saw it around Ishamael, Cadsuane and Tuon saw it around Rand when he was at his darkest. I think it is kind of like how Nynaeve and Elayne felt the Dark One's evil on the seal from Tanchico. In other words, the Dark One can be sensed by channelers.

[OptimusPrime]

"a chance to compare notes with Egwene" Meh. Egwene is at best third rate at TAR compared to Slayer and 2nd rate compared to Perrin. She would get molested so badly in TAR by the Slayer, it will not be a pretty sight. Probably even worse than if she fought Rand or Ishamael in an OP battle.

 

Perrin needs to man up and become a true hunter/wolf in TAR in order to have any hope against THE SLAYER/RULER SUPREME OF TAR.

 

 

 

 

I put my wager on Taim=Ishamael. Book 10 or 11 nailed it, his meeting with that AS woman.

 

Who in this Age has that kind of dominating presence beside Rand? The new Ishamael. Well, even the old Ishamael, the Forsaken were afraid of him and he had the presence.

 

Taim makes even the likes of Mat, Egwene, Perrin, Logain seem at best pretend leaders.

 

 

 

Due to the value of the ter'angreal, it is doubtful he would just hand that over to someone who is just similar to Logain.

 

Among many other clues, only the Forsaken call the Aiel "so-called", which Taim did way back in book 6...and since he cannot be Demandred.

 

 

Logain is in trouble. If it is indeed Ishamael, he is no match whatsoever.

 

I've never had this impression about Taim. He is represented throughout the story as a bully, albeit a powerful one. Bashere was definitely not afraid of him when he first appeared, and was ready to rip his throat out with his own teeth.

 

Quite the contrary, there are several characters in the story that are described as having an air about them that men would follow (the strongest being the newly transformed Rand): Tam, Perrin, Jaged Agelmar, Itiduralde, Rhuarc, Cadsuane, Sorilea, and even Lan. Each of these is portrayed as a stronger leader than Taim. I just don't buy him being Moridin/Ishamael, who has always had an air about him that seems to be a living shadow.

 

Here's another point to that affect, when Taim is introduced to the story line. Rand states he will take Taim to the farm.

 

"Farm?" said Taim.

 

Rand continues speaking with someone else on another topic, completely ignoring Taim.

 

"What farm?" Taim asks again, I believe a little peaved at being ignored.

 

Rand continues addressing others, and when he's finished he gates to the farm and pretty much treats Taim with an "are you coming?" look.

 

Taim is described as being close in the power to Rand, but Rand learns faster. Ishamael was reportedly LTT's equal in power. Moridin is also reputed to be using the True Power almost exclusively in order to gain so many saa so quickly (remember that he has only one when he is first introduced, but has a "blizzard" of them now). Taim states that he could have been the DR if he could have made one prophecy come true, a weak point for a philosopher from the AoL to make. But what he never had is an air of natural leadership. Even at the end of ToM, he is portrayed more as a self-possessed, pompous ass than anything else, but even then Pevara's only personal reaction to him is one that can be attributed to a Red's opinion of a man who can channel. Heck, even Mat's fat horse-thief/scout can't recall his name at the moment) has a stronger air of danger about hi than Taim.

 

I believe Taim is nothing more than a modern day dreadlord; there have been dreadlords in the past without gaining "Chosen" status. In fact, I think Alviarin has come closer to this than anyone.

 

I don't think Pevara's reaction is "typical Red". She is not a typical Red which is why she is at the Black Tower to propose bonding Ashaman in the first place. Seeing the "evil shadow" around Taim would be possible for any channeler I believe. Rand saw it around Ishamael, Cadsuane and Tuon saw it around Rand when he was at his darkest. I think it is kind of like how Nynaeve and Elayne felt the Dark One's evil on the seal from Tanchico. In other words, the Dark One can be sensed by channelers.

 

Tam saw it around Rand. Seeing the aura has nothing to do with being a channeler.

[Lisa Campbell]

True. But that doesn't go against having a typical Red reaction which was the main point of my post. Did Min see it? If Tam did then I would think Min would considering how much time she spends with Rand.

[OptimusPrime]

True. But that doesn't go against having a typical Red reaction which was the main point of my post. Did Min see it? If Tam did then I would think Min would considering how much time she spends with Rand.

 

Im sure she must have, but then again its not a permanent aura. Rand was pretty nasty in some places without the aura, so Min might not have seen it. Im guna reread TGS soon though so I'll find out for sure.

 

Nynaeve saw it I think

[FarShainMael]

Min did see Rand's 'light aura' in ToM13:

 

'It made her want to raise her arm and shade her eyes, though there was nothing actually to see. It was just the bond. Except.. the air did seem to distort around him. Was that a trick of the sunlight?'

[Owayn The Traveller]

Well here's what I think will happen with Taim.

 

We all know all the threads will not be dealt with by the end of AMOL. I reckon he doesn't become toast at all and he is a threat in the world after the last battle.

The Black Tower being rent in blood, or whatever the exact quote is, means that it will be the downfall of Taim. Heck he could still be in control there after the last battle

 

I'd like to see in the aftermath the black tower still up and running with Taim in control and everyone knowing he was a pretty bad guy but not being able to prove anything and not being able to openly act agaisnt him because of whatever diplomatic treaties but in place after the last battle. Him still working away at his little plots. Even with the downfall of the dark one, I can see Taim not being too bothered 'cause he's all out for himself.

 

Logain's glory also being something where he fights Demandred and Taim kills both whilst they are fighting and he gives Logain all the credit and the good guys get there and Taim is cradling Logains body and shouting 'Why do the good ones always have to die?!.' 'I got here too late to save him.'

[Rcurran]

I actually like Taim and I'm still rooting for him to pull a Verin. Albeit with a heavy dose of self interest.

[Southpaw89]

we need to stop talking about this debate. Everytime I read a new Taim = Moridin topic I switch my opinion and it's driving me nuts!!! haha jk keep discussing but it's so tough to figure out. I'm still going back to my original idea in that Taim is just Taim but he was ordered by Demandred to begin training Asha'men and then when Moridin came along he put his own influence into Taim which is where the similar colors come from. Moridin is too busy up in the Blight getting troops ready for TG to be leading the Black Tower.

[BrennanTucker]

Just another chump Rand will eat alive on the undercard. Or maybe Logain will have to take him out, who knows.

 

This is how I am seeing things pan out. Obviously Rand will have to make a decision about what to do with him, but it will be Logain who eventually wipes him out (training with the forsaken or no haha). Logain is one BAMF and he will prove that with Taim's destruction :). I love Logain's faction in the BT, they are so endeering and loveable!!

[thebob101]

Here's my question. Why hasn't Taim shown any signs of madness? This could possibly hint that he is one of the Forsaken/Chosen (whether you worship the Dark Lord or are bathing in the Light). I think it makes more sense that he is Demandred. Not to mention that if you look at the WoT Wiki, Taim looks like Demandred. I know they are just fan pics, but could mean something. Personally, I don't think Taim is Moridin, but I could be wrong.

[OptimusPrime]

I think it makes more sense that he is Demandred.

 

RJ debunked that years ago.

 

If Taim is one of the known Forsaken it can only be Moridin. Theres only two saidin users left and RJ personally wrote off Taimandred.

 

Bel'al might be an option, but I doubt. Everything Taim does points to Ishamael.

[baalsmistress]

Here's my question. Why hasn't Taim shown any signs of madness? This could possibly hint that he is one of the Forsaken/Chosen (whether you worship the Dark Lord or are bathing in the Light). I think it makes more sense that he is Demandred. Not to mention that if you look at the WoT Wiki, Taim looks like Demandred. I know they are just fan pics, but could mean something. Personally, I don't think Taim is Moridin, but I could be wrong.

 

That just implies that the great lord has extended to him protection from the taint. It doesn't imply that he ranks among the chosen.

 

For myself, I see Taim as being a dark friend for many many years, who bridled his way into the leadership of the black toer and has built up a sizable number of dreadlords for the great lord to use in the upcoming physical batles.

 

Taim himself would probably be the male equivilent of Alviarin, heading up the randland dark male channellers.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim himself would probably be the male equivilent of Alviarin, heading up the randland dark male channellers.

 

I thought that once. I thought it would have been cool if they became bonded, perhaps Alviarin working at the Black Tower to use the bonded Aes Sedai for Dark purposes. But alas, twas not written.

 

Alviarin was my favorite Black by far, such a shame she snuffed it.

[gloweye]

Bel'al is balefired drekka, he's not coming back.

 

anyway, i still think he's "just" a DF dreadlord...

 

he could be trained by ishy, though. he was already out at NS (he tortured the BA leader of the time to death in 10 days for attemping to kill a premature dragon). Taim began channeling 15 year prior to series IIRC, and he knows how to test. maybe ishy just tested an amount of DF's for the spark, and found Taim. thats also the only place where i know Taim could have learned that.

[baalsmistress]

And another thought that occurs to me.

 

He finds it easy to locate men that can channel and train them - yet he did nto do so for the years that he was active and calling himself dragon. Indeed, he first exhibits that ability after Rand has brought him to heel so to speak.

 

It's not at all beyond the pail that he was only taught the trick recently, to facilitate his development of the dreadlord ranks in the black tower.

[thebob101]

So, I take everyone thinks that the folks in Taim's camp at the BT are dreadlords. I do remember there were people channeling in the borderlands during the battle and the battle with Perrin near the Lugard Road.