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clu7ch

Let's talk about Taim, Baby

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You're hitting my point though- why would Jordan make it like that if he wasn't going to use that loophole at some point?

 

To make us squirm. Why else?

 

Maybe more than that. Reread the Kaffe Klatsch from Knife of Dreams and maybe the one before that. There has been one more chair at the table than attendees.

 

Question is, who was that chair for? Some say Taim. Some say Bel'al. Some even say Sammael.

 

Problem is, we don't know. It might be just another red herring.

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Those chairs sure raise that question... I think taim the chosen is the best possibility. If bel'al would be back, we would have seen something by now.

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Now this is interesting.. Just appeared on Brandon's 'Great hunt' page:

 

FORSAKEN EVENTS

 

None of the Forsaken know that Osan’gar (Corlan Dashiva) is dead, but they know he’s vanished. They are pretty much sure that Sammael is dead, because he isn’t the type to remain in hiding, but think Asmodean might well be hiding out until he can figure a way to return safely. They know that Rahvin and Be’lal are dead, though some at least suspect reincarnation as Aran’gar and Osan’gar. Most have worked out that Moridin is Ishamael.

 

So some of the Forsaken think Be'lal can be reincarnated.. Do they not know how he died? Do they not know how Rahvin died, come to that? Or does the DO have a rabbit in Its hat?

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Now this is interesting.. Just appeared on Brandon's 'Great hunt' page:

 

FORSAKEN EVENTS

 

None of the Forsaken know that Osan’gar (Corlan Dashiva) is dead, but they know he’s vanished. They are pretty much sure that Sammael is dead, because he isn’t the type to remain in hiding, but think Asmodean might well be hiding out until he can figure a way to return safely. They know that Rahvin and Be’lal are dead, though some at least suspect reincarnation as Aran’gar and Osan’gar. Most have worked out that Moridin is Ishamael.

 

So some of the Forsaken think Be'lal can be reincarnated.. Do they not know how he died? Do they not know how Rahvin died, come to that? Or does the DO have a rabbit in Its hat?

 

The Dark One told Demandred that Rahvin was beyond reincarnation.

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Now this is interesting.. Just appeared on Brandon's 'Great hunt' page:

 

FORSAKEN EVENTS

 

None of the Forsaken know that Osan’gar (Corlan Dashiva) is dead, but they know he’s vanished. They are pretty much sure that Sammael is dead, because he isn’t the type to remain in hiding, but think Asmodean might well be hiding out until he can figure a way to return safely. They know that Rahvin and Be’lal are dead, though some at least suspect reincarnation as Aran’gar and Osan’gar. Most have worked out that Moridin is Ishamael.

 

So some of the Forsaken think Be'lal can be reincarnated.. Do they not know how he died? Do they not know how Rahvin died, come to that? Or does the DO have a rabbit in Its hat?

 

The Dark One told Demandred that Rahvin was beyond reincarnation.

 

So he did, now you mention it...

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

 

... no mention of Be'lal. Hmmm.

Edited by FarShainMael

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But that happend two books earlier. Maybe Demandred already knows, but just doesn't tell us. and the DO would not bother giving Demandred a whole list of forsaken deaths he already knows.

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On the Great Hunt stuff, what Demandred knows through his talk with the DO, and what Graendal or Mesaana thinks are two different things. Assuming Demandred didn't share, or the others didn't get a similar message.

 

Regarding Be'lal. Though the RJ quote is instructive, it seems to me, the DO himself admits that he can't save someone from Balefire. Hence, Be'lal is toast.

 

Again. Taim = Moridin. A forsaken apprentice wouldn't outrank Sammael or Be'lal. And the so called conflicting orders aren't even that conflicting. Yes, there are holes and things that need explanation, but that is true if Taim isn't Moridin as well.

 

I guess we'll find out soon.

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For some reason I do not see this at all with Taim. Seems too obvious. If anything I think Taim is just one of those people who sees an opportunity to gain alot of power via the Asha'man and is doing what any other power hungry person would do. Which is try and seize control, or atleast a large portion of control of the Black Tower in Logain and Rands absence.

 

I for one am dissapointed in the whole Black Tower ordeal anyway. Originally the idea seemed awesome but then the whole Black Tower faction just becomes a side-note in almost every book save a few. Perhaps the Asha'man will take a more central role in everything going on in the final book. How often did you hear from the Black Tower in this series? It started being built in what, book 6 or something like that? 7 books later and I couldn't describe an interior room of the whole place lol.

 

Taim though seems too obvious. If anything the Forsaken there is someone close to Taim that is just manipulating the mans greed and madness. Perhaps Rand will think the same of Taim, that he is Forsaken and will confront him but then the Forsaken will strike with Rand distracted with Taim.

 

Never know. But I just haven't thought of Taim is anything special beyond greedy and powerful.

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One huge thing the Taim=Moridin crowd has never been able to explain is why Moridin instead of simply travelling would have allowed himself to be harried across have a continent to arrive in Andor "rode hard and put away wet". This was according to RJ who also gave us Taim's reasons for getting to Andor, it being a safe haven and all. It just doesn't fit.

Edited by Suttree

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One huge thing the Taim=Moridin crowd has never been able to explain is why Moridin instead of simply travelling would have allowed himself to be harried across have a continent to arrive in Andor "rode hard and put away wet". This was according to RJ who also gave us Taim's reasons for getting to Andor, it being a safe haven and all. It just doesn't fit.

 

Moridin knows how strong a Ta'veren Rand is. If he Travelled to the city, chances are he would have, on the off chance, ended up opening the gateway to right where Rand was, in which case he couldnt have claimed to have not known Travelling. Not to mention that having Bashere on his tail lends credence to the disguise.

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One huge thing the Taim=Moridin crowd has never been able to explain is why Moridin instead of simply travelling would have allowed himself to be harried across have a continent to arrive in Andor "rode hard and put away wet". This was according to RJ who also gave us Taim's reasons for getting to Andor, it being a safe haven and all. It just doesn't fit.

 

Moridin knows how strong a Ta'veren Rand is. If he Travelled to the city, chances are he would have, on the off chance, ended up opening the gateway to right where Rand was, in which case he couldnt have claimed to have not known Travelling. Not to mention that having Bashere on his tail lends credence to the disguise.

 

Come now Drekka, you can do better than that.

 

There are far better ways to go about getting in to Andor. We see Moridin move at will all over the world regardless of what Ta'veren are present. We are talking about being harried across hundreds of miles. Moridin would not allow savages to hunt him down to the detriment of his physical health. He would not be "rode hard and put away wet" during "a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn"

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.

 

In addition RJ has also told us his motivation in going.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

RJ: Ta-eem, (he said it phonetically) sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai wont be able to come after him.

 

The whole think doesn't add up and you know it Drekka.

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I personally think the Black Tower will become a shell of itself once it is all said and done. There will be plenty of male channelers left but they will be greatly reduced in numbers, or a majority will be Black Asha'man.

 

There were hundreds of Black Ajah in the Aes Sedai and those women were not mad, in some way. The men were. All of them have the taint and will be uniquely prone to going the way of the Dark One. Who better to manipulate the madness in men then the one who created it?

 

Either the Black Tower will be gone completely, and the Asha'man left in shambles, or the war will just seriously deminish their numbers in the end. Making those Male/Female circles even more necessary. Or perhaps the joining of the Black and White Towers even more necessary.

 

Taim though. I just do not see it. Although, storyline wise. Demandred has been the least talked about / worked up Forsaken while the Black Tower and Taim have been the least talked about / worked up storyline of the whole book. We learned more about minor characters in the Kin then Taim in the Black Tower. That is pretty suspect.

 

Still, i think Demandred is just someone around Taim manipulating the man's madness.

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Not sure if its in an earlier post but I think Logain will blast Taim (probably impersonating the Dragon Reborn in some fashion)into oblivion. Not sure how that will play out but I do believe it will happen. The Black Tower will probably survive but be severely weakened. The fractures and factions were pretty obvious in the last book. I would like to see a major showdown between these too but it may be resolved off camera (i hope not).

 

Taim is most likely a minor dreadlord aspiring to something greater. Lot of theories about where Demandred is....For me I will wait and see.

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One huge thing the Taim=Moridin crowd has never been able to explain is why Moridin instead of simply travelling would have allowed himself to be harried across have a continent to arrive in Andor "rode hard and put away wet". This was according to RJ who also gave us Taim's reasons for getting to Andor, it being a safe haven and all. It just doesn't fit.

 

Moridin knows how strong a Ta'veren Rand is. If he Travelled to the city, chances are he would have, on the off chance, ended up opening the gateway to right where Rand was, in which case he couldnt have claimed to have not known Travelling. Not to mention that having Bashere on his tail lends credence to the disguise.

 

Come now Drekka, you can do better than that.

 

There are far better ways to go about getting in to Andor. We see Moridin move at will all over the world regardless of what Ta'veren are present. We are talking about being harried across hundreds of miles. Moridin would not allow savages to hunt him down to the detriment of his physical health. He would not be "rode hard and put away wet" during "a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn"

 

RJ's blog 4 October 2005 "ONE MORE TIME"

 

Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old.

 

In addition RJ has also told us his motivation in going.

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

RJ: Ta-eem, (he said it phonetically) sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place where there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai wont be able to come after him.

 

The whole think doesn't add up and you know it Drekka.

 

Sorry for taking a while to reply Suttree, I dont have regular internet at the mo.

 

RJ was describing what Taims motives were, sure. Thing is, Taim may well have been on his way to Rand when the Shadow got him (IF they got him, of course) so I dont see anything to debunk Mazridin here. I never said Taim never existed, and the reasons RJ gave for Taim going to Rand are, of course, completely valid seeing as Taim once did have his own motives. But just because RJ described someones motives, it doesnt mean that person is automatically the guy who claims to be that person onscreen. See, if I am right and Taim is Moridin, then any question about Taim would be answered with regard to the guy who was False Dragon, not Moridin pretending to be him.

 

Its like that other thing someone asked Brandon, they asked him why Taim would shave due to warmer climate when he knows the no-sweating thing, Brandon said he had no idea why Taim would do that. My take on it is, that Taim did not do that, it was Moridin. Taim would not shave in a warmer climate, for the same reasons Bashere wouldnt. Its Moridin, and he shaved because the beard would interfere with the altered face. Brandon answered the question-he didnt know why TAIM would do that, but then, Taim is now an alter ego, so whatever motives he had are no longer valid and do not apply to the guy we know as Taim. Which is Moridin.

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