Egwene versus Perrin.. who is better in the TAR/Wolf Dream?

[Suttree]

It didn't even occurred to Perrin to go ask Rand for troops to destroy the Shaido instead of making deals with the Seanchan. That was beyond stupid. His plan for Malden required a huge amount of luck - the WO not noticing early on they've been forkooted. If they had noticed, 400 Wise Ones might've well slaughtered his forces who had way less channellers. Giving the Seanchan hundreds of new damane was far from smart too, given that he expected to have to fught against them in the future.

 

Didn't Rand basically threaten to Kill Perrin if he came back without Masthema?

 

That was all an act they put on before Perrin left.

[Never]

I'd say Egwene. She thinks to herself during the fight vs Mesaana and the others that channeling is more effective than thought in some ways, and the breaking of the Forsaken shows that her willpower is very strong.

[Xcorpyo001]

I'd say Egwene. She thinks to herself during the fight vs Mesaana and the others that channeling is more effective than thought in some ways, and the breaking of the Forsaken shows that her willpower is very strong.

 

She also thinks that Zen Rand is most likely crazy and she's the only one capable to lead them to victory at TG/SH. Thinking something doesn't always make it true, not even in TaR.

 

Again, Perrin has:

-a lot of training in DW

-wolf army at his disposal(used for scouting, fighting, etc)

-a lot of four legged teachers that can hone his skills in Tar, especially for fighting/hunting

-experience fighting Forsaken(Ba'alzamon) and the DO's no 1 TaR hitman

-ta'veren nature

-six sense about danger(Elyas sensing the ravens/Children) and keener senses(he can sense/spot an enemy long before they can spot him)

-good reflexes and instinctive fighting(stopping balefire)

-good planner

 

Egwene:

-a lot of training in TaR

-good teachers

-very stubborn and with a very good impression about herself, which, to my chagrin, can be a very good thing in TaR

-strong willpower

-experience fighting Forsaken and some BA amateurs.

-acceptable planner.

 

 

I still believe greater numbers, luck from his ta'veren nature, keen senses that can help him in locating his target first, his instinctive type of fighting, and overconfidence on Egwene's side(she thinks some air bonds/ropes can hold him prisoner), which isn't always a good thing, not to mention Brandon's comment that his better performance in Tar Valon is because he had more training in the later books, but she can catch up in a while, will tip the balance towards Perrin, at least for the time being.

 

 

PS: Thumbs up for the signature. It's pure win.

[Skeeve the Great]

The main difference in Perrin and Egwene training is that Perrin beleives TAR is NOT real. Egwene beleives it's very real and dangerous. Perrin's approach allows him to take greater control of surroundings, because his will won't allow the changes to harm or distract him too much. Egwene's approach allows her to be more pro-active, she has better training on inventing changes to fit her needs, be more aggressive with surroundings.

 

It's hard to tell which approach is better. Sometimes I think Perrin's. Sometimes - Egwene's.

[Xcorpyo001]

The main difference in Perrin and Egwene training is that Perrin beleives TAR is NOT real. Egwene beleives it's very real and dangerous. Perrin's approach allows him to take greater control of surroundings, because his will won't allow the changes to harm or distract him too much. Egwene's approach allows her to be more pro-active, she has better training on inventing changes to fit her needs, be more aggressive with surroundings.

 

It's hard to tell which approach is better. Sometimes I think Perrin's. Sometimes - Egwene's.

 

 

If Egwene knows that everything is real and dangerous, that will be an advantage for Perrin, because if Egwene will think an attack will harm her just for a fraction of a second, that will weaken her defenses.

But unfortunately, Perrin found out that everything there is as real as it gets, especially after he lost his friend for good, Slayer's wound was also on 'Lord Luc', and when he was wounded in the DW they had to heal him because the wounds traveled with him when he woke up.

Also, they couldn't heal him while he was inside the DW. So they are on an equal footing, at least from this point of view. They both know not to mess around there.

[Never]

I'd say Egwene. She thinks to herself during the fight vs Mesaana and the others that channeling is more effective than thought in some ways, and the breaking of the Forsaken shows that her willpower is very strong.

 

She also thinks that Zen Rand is most likely crazy and she's the only one capable to lead them to victory at TG/SH. Thinking something doesn't always make it true, not even in TaR.

 

Again, Perrin has:

-a lot of training in DW

-wolf army at his disposal(used for scouting, fighting, etc)

-a lot of four legged teachers that can hone his skills in Tar, especially for fighting/hunting

-experience fighting Forsaken(Ba'alzamon) and the DO's no 1 TaR hitman

-ta'veren nature

-six sense about danger(Elyas sensing the ravens/Children) and keener senses(he can sense/spot an enemy long before they can spot him)

-good reflexes and instinctive fighting(stopping balefire)

-good planner

 

Egwene:

-a lot of training in TaR

-good teachers

-very stubborn and with a very good impression about herself, which, to my chagrin, can be a very good thing in TaR

-strong willpower

-experience fighting Forsaken and some BA amateurs.

-acceptable planner.

 

 

I still believe greater numbers, luck from his ta'veren nature, keen senses that can help him in locating his target first, his instinctive type of fighting, and overconfidence on Egwene's side(she thinks some air bonds/ropes can hold him prisoner), which isn't always a good thing, not to mention Brandon's comment that his better performance in Tar Valon is because he had more training in the later books, but she can catch up in a while, will tip the balance towards Perrin, at least for the time being.

 

 

PS: Thumbs up for the signature. It's pure win.

 

 

 

Great logic, however I still believe that if Egwene and Perrin would confront each other in aMoL, Perrin would have drawn at best. If anything, because Egwene no more than any other character excels without practice.

 

And thanks :)

[Xcorpyo001]

I used all my arguments on this matter, so I'll ask something else about how they work in TaR.

To what degree can they move things around in TaR?

We see Perrin taking the dreamspike around the world while fighting Slayer. What's the ds exactly? A ter'angreal? It can be moved in the DW only because it has a direct action on the TaR world? Or you can move anything around?

Like the Bowl. If Perrin can enter the WD, take an object and destroy it someplace else, can't Egwene just go to Ebou Dar, take the Bowl, take it to her room, and wake up to find it there? Can't she do the same with the male adam in Tanchico?

This Dreamspike part made me reconsider a lot of things about TaR. And raised a lot of questions.

[Turin Turambar]

I believe that the dreamspike was in Tar "in the flesh" if you will. It was a real tem there. The bowl in Tar would just be a reflection of its real world counterpart and I would think it could not be moved in the same manner.

[Xcorpyo001]

I believe that the dreamspike was in Tar "in the flesh" if you will. It was a real tem there. The bowl in Tar would just be a reflection of its real world counterpart and I would think it could not be moved in the same manner.

 

 

Aham, this explains a lot. I've always thought the Dreamspike was in the real world, but he could find it faster in the DW. I should have give it more thought.

Can either Perrin or Egwene bring real things in TaR? Or it's just a Slayer thing? I remember a WO saying that entering there for real is very dangerous, but I don't remember anything about bringing stuff from the real world.

[Turin Turambar]

You have to go into TaR in the flesh to bring "real" items there, or to take them out. Egwene or any channeler could do it if they knew to make a gateway from real world to TaR. In books we've only seen Rand, Egwene and some Forsaken do this IIRC.

[Kahsm]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

 

When Perrin and Slayer move they leave the streak. In tSR he mentions how you can see the streak and that's how he knows where they went. That's why he stays perfectly still to catch slayer with the arrow.

 

I'm fairly certain Egwene does not streak. They describe it as TAR shifting around them; Perrin described it as taking a step and being somewhere else.

 

I can't remember if hopper gets Perrin to do it differently later on, but I think that's one of the wolf/dreamer differences.

[Turin Turambar]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

 

When Perrin and Slayer move they leave the streak. In tSR he mentions how you can see the streak and that's how he knows where they went. That's why he stays perfectly still to catch slayer with the arrow.

 

I'm fairly certain Egwene does not streak. They describe it as TAR shifting around them; Perrin described it as taking a step and being somewhere else.

 

I can't remember if hopper gets Perrin to do it differently later on, but I think that's one of the wolf/dreamer differences.

Yes, Hopper does. Early on Perrin and Slayer were basically just "running fast", thus the streak. This is also what Egwene did going to Salidar. Later while training, Hopper taught Perrin to "jump" from any place to any other place, and also most importantly that he could recognize the "scent" of the place someone else jumped to and that he could then follow them to the exact location. Egwene and Perrin can both jump from place to place, but only Perrin can follow directly because he will know exactly where Egwene went.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

[Kahsm]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

 

When Perrin and Slayer move they leave the streak. In tSR he mentions how you can see the streak and that's how he knows where they went. That's why he stays perfectly still to catch slayer with the arrow.

 

I'm fairly certain Egwene does not streak. They describe it as TAR shifting around them; Perrin described it as taking a step and being somewhere else.

 

I can't remember if hopper gets Perrin to do it differently later on, but I think that's one of the wolf/dreamer differences.

Yes, Hopper does. Early on Perrin and Slayer were basically just "running fast", thus the streak. This is also what Egwene did going to Salidar. Later while training, Hopper taught Perrin to "jump" from any place to any other place, and also most importantly that he could recognize the "scent" of the place someone else jumped to and that he could then follow them to the exact location. Egwene and Perrin can both jump from place to place, but only Perrin can follow directly because he will know exactly where Egwene went.

 

Fair enough, but again we don't know that Egwene can't since clearly the wise one's can and almost all of Egwene's lessons are off-screen. As a matter of fact, Egwene finds Nynaeve when she goes to search through the white tower after their meeting. It's possible she just guessed, but I doubt it.

 

Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

Given what she did to Mesaana, I don't see why not. Assuming she doesn't forget how TAR works again.

[MasterAblar]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

 

When Perrin and Slayer move they leave the streak. In tSR he mentions how you can see the streak and that's how he knows where they went. That's why he stays perfectly still to catch slayer with the arrow.

 

I'm fairly certain Egwene does not streak. They describe it as TAR shifting around them; Perrin described it as taking a step and being somewhere else.

 

I can't remember if hopper gets Perrin to do it differently later on, but I think that's one of the wolf/dreamer differences.

Yes, Hopper does. Early on Perrin and Slayer were basically just "running fast", thus the streak. This is also what Egwene did going to Salidar. Later while training, Hopper taught Perrin to "jump" from any place to any other place, and also most importantly that he could recognize the "scent" of the place someone else jumped to and that he could then follow them to the exact location. Egwene and Perrin can both jump from place to place, but only Perrin can follow directly because he will know exactly where Egwene went.

 

Fair enough, but again we don't know that Egwene can't since clearly the wise one's can and almost all of Egwene's lessons are off-screen. As a matter of fact, Egwene finds Nynaeve when she goes to search through the white tower after their meeting. It's possible she just guessed, but I doubt it.

 

Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

Given what she did to Mesaana, I don't see why not. Assuming she doesn't forget how TAR works again.

 

I don't see how beating Mesaana means she would be able to beat Slayer. We don't know how they compare. Besides, Egwene may have ultimately beaten Mesaana, but Mesaana actually could have killed her. Egwene was quite lucky that Mesaana thought Egwnene knew about the dream spike because if she had time to put an adam around her neck than she had time to slit her throat too. Egwene won through willpower not through skill in the dream. She didn't outsmart Mesaana, nor did she show herself to be more skilled at fighting in the dream. She just overwhelmed her. Which is fine and all, but Slayer is unlikely to fight the same way as Mesaana. If Egwene tries that with him, he'll probably just appear behind her and try to bash her head in.

[Durinax]

I have to put this in there but if egwene went against slayer she would be destroyed. Perrin barely stuck it through and he only managed that because he can sense exactly where people port too

[icspots]

Not really a comment on Egwene vs Perring, but something I've thought about for awhile. Perrin, aside from issues choosing between the hammer and axe, never seems to have the issue in TAR of his clothing, etc. constantly changing. Every other person we see in TAR outside of those who've done exhaustive training has this issue and it's pointed out in the POV's repeatedly. So does Perrin not do this because he's a wolfbrother? Because he always went 'too strongly'? Some other reason?

[Xcorpyo001]

Not really a comment on Egwene vs Perring, but something I've thought about for awhile. Perrin, aside from issues choosing between the hammer and axe, never seems to have the issue in TAR of his clothing, etc. constantly changing. Every other person we see in TAR outside of those who've done exhaustive training has this issue and it's pointed out in the POV's repeatedly. So does Perrin not do this because he's a wolfbrother? Because he always went 'too strongly'? Some other reason?

 

 

 

Well, at first Perrin had his own set of problems, like turning into a wolf from time to time.

I think he focused on that problem a lot stronger than others, because being naked in TaR is not that dangerous compared with being stuck in 'wolf mode' forever.

So he had a lot of incentive to work out that issue a lot faster than Egwene&co.

[XXX]

If I'm honest, I think Egwene could actually defeat Slayer while Perrin could not (as things stand)... depending on the situtation. Perrin's skill in TAR seems very out and out combat based; while Egwene has tricks Perrin does not (the "think someone stupid" one for example).

 

It really depends who sets the tempo and battleground. If Perrin started on Egwene, he'd win. If Egwene started on Perrin, she'd win. Different styles, neither is equipped to deal with the other.

 

She probably can..as she defeated Messana, by thinking that she is the white tower, the greatest of the great. All hail the former waitress!!!

[Thor]

The only way Perrin would ever be as ruthless as Egwene is if Faile's life were at stake.

 

Well there we go. Egwene will try to conjure up something Perrin fears the most (Faile being tortured in front of his eyes), which in turns make Perrin go berserk and beat Egwene to a pulp.

So Egwene gets herself beat due to thinking how 'smart' she is, as usual.

[Hopefire]

It seems to me that Egwene would want to fight like a chessmaster. She'd have a plan, she'd have a backup plan, she'd make sure that the battlefield was on her turf, she'd make sure she had allies hiding in the wings. That's Egwene's strength, using organization and superior resources and layers of misdirection to put herself in a position to win. Egwene also isn't the type to kill straight out, she'd want to capture whomever she was up against, for various reasons. Intelligence gathering, prestige, etc. A dead enemy just closes down options.

 

Perrin would fight like a ghost. . . or a wolf. Perrin would snap at the flanks, hamstring and cripple his enemy, and would go for the throat when possible.

 

As I see a theoretical fight between then, Egwene has prepped the battlefield, has the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai hiding in all the approaches leading up to her. Perrin walks right into her trap. She snags Perrin, and informs him that he'd better X (where X is something he doesn't want to do, and the reason that they're fighting in the first place). Perrin starts trying to reason with Egwene, but then disappears in midword, taking Egwene by surprise. Egwene and the troops go on alert. She starts checking in with people. After one sweep, some of them are missing. Egwene gathers up the strongest to her, and they start trying to hunt Perrin directly. The allies she's brought together that aren't in her little pack go down quickly. Egwene realizes she's in trouble, and she and her group shift the fallback location, the Amyrlin's office. They prep for whatever's coming. Egwene explains that she's going to hide herself and try to shift directly to Perrin to try to take him out. She shifts, and finds herself next to one of the Aes Sedai she's brought with her directly into the fallback location. Too late she sees a gleam of gold in the "woman's" eyes, way too late to do anything about the incoming uppercut.

 

TKO, win goes to Perrin.

 

IMHO.

[Xcorpyo001]

It seems to me that Egwene would want to fight like a chessmaster. She'd have a plan, she'd have a backup plan, she'd make sure that the battlefield was on her turf, she'd make sure she had allies hiding in the wings. That's Egwene's strength, using organization and superior resources and layers of misdirection to put herself in a position to win. Egwene also isn't the type to kill straight out, she'd want to capture whomever she was up against, for various reasons. Intelligence gathering, prestige, etc. A dead enemy just closes down options.

 

Perrin would fight like a ghost. . . or a wolf. Perrin would snap at the flanks, hamstring and cripple his enemy, and would go for the throat when possible.

 

As I see a theoretical fight between then, Egwene has prepped the battlefield, has the Wise Ones and Aes Sedai hiding in all the approaches leading up to her. Perrin walks right into her trap. She snags Perrin, and informs him that he'd better X (where X is something he doesn't want to do, and the reason that they're fighting in the first place). Perrin starts trying to reason with Egwene, but then disappears in midword, taking Egwene by surprise. Egwene and the troops go on alert. She starts checking in with people. After one sweep, some of them are missing. Egwene gathers up the strongest to her, and they start trying to hunt Perrin directly. The allies she's brought together that aren't in her little pack go down quickly. Egwene realizes she's in trouble, and she and her group shift the fallback location, the Amyrlin's office. They prep for whatever's coming. Egwene explains that she's going to hide herself and try to shift directly to Perrin to try to take him out. She shifts, and finds herself next to one of the Aes Sedai she's brought with her directly into the fallback location. Too late she sees a gleam of gold in the "woman's" eyes, way too late to do anything about the incoming uppercut.

 

TKO, win goes to Perrin.

 

IMHO.

 

 

Nice battle plan, +10.

I especially enjoyed the chessmaster joke you used to open up your presentation. Not to mention the one about the backup plan. Hilarious. Keep it up.

[Kahsm]

I would say Perrin for one reason. He can jump away to another point in the dream without Egwene knowing where he went. She cannot do this. This particular ability would allow him to control where the fight takes place. Control the battleground and you control the battle.

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Amys could. Egwene should.

Should, maybe. She has not demonstrated the ability yet so we can not be certain she can.

 

In fact I would doubt she is even aware of the possibility. In the TaR battle against the BA, She and Nyn employ the tactic of jumping to one point attacking and then jumping to a point they consider "safe". If she thought that following by scent or another technique were possible, she would be beyond foolish to consider the second location safe.

 

When Perrin and Slayer move they leave the streak. In tSR he mentions how you can see the streak and that's how he knows where they went. That's why he stays perfectly still to catch slayer with the arrow.

 

I'm fairly certain Egwene does not streak. They describe it as TAR shifting around them; Perrin described it as taking a step and being somewhere else.

 

I can't remember if hopper gets Perrin to do it differently later on, but I think that's one of the wolf/dreamer differences.

Yes, Hopper does. Early on Perrin and Slayer were basically just "running fast", thus the streak. This is also what Egwene did going to Salidar. Later while training, Hopper taught Perrin to "jump" from any place to any other place, and also most importantly that he could recognize the "scent" of the place someone else jumped to and that he could then follow them to the exact location. Egwene and Perrin can both jump from place to place, but only Perrin can follow directly because he will know exactly where Egwene went.

 

Fair enough, but again we don't know that Egwene can't since clearly the wise one's can and almost all of Egwene's lessons are off-screen. As a matter of fact, Egwene finds Nynaeve when she goes to search through the white tower after their meeting. It's possible she just guessed, but I doubt it.

 

Just to keep the discussion going, let's get back to the original question... Could Egwene kill Slayer where Perrin is still not quite there? Further, could a wise one of average ability be of the same ability as Hopper? I was really trying to figure out, using the intelligence of Dragonmount, how these two disciplines of TAR match up.

 

Given what she did to Mesaana, I don't see why not. Assuming she doesn't forget how TAR works again.

 

I don't see how beating Mesaana means she would be able to beat Slayer. We don't know how they compare. Besides, Egwene may have ultimately beaten Mesaana, but Mesaana actually could have killed her. Egwene was quite lucky that Mesaana thought Egwnene knew about the dream spike because if she had time to put an adam around her neck than she had time to slit her throat too. Egwene won through willpower not through skill in the dream. She didn't outsmart Mesaana, nor did she show herself to be more skilled at fighting in the dream. She just overwhelmed her. Which is fine and all, but Slayer is unlikely to fight the same way as Mesaana. If Egwene tries that with him, he'll probably just appear behind her and try to bash her head in.

 

... skill is pretty much pointless after a point if one's will is strong enough. Your little story is why I said "as long as she doesn't forget how TAR works again." Brandon said TAR was "Egwene's thing" he said she was simply rusty and distracted in that fight. So if she just decides to will Perrin into one place, who's to say he could move at all? Perrin doesn't do any imposing on others, that is my point. His mastery is about himself and how he hunts and moves. Egwene can and does control TAR, not just herself in TAR. That is a hhuuugggeee advantage.

[Durinax]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

[Kahsm]

actually I think perrins self control is why he would win, egwene could imagine things holding him back, but perrin would know that they dont effect him allowing him to keep on the hunt

 

But it's not a matter of just knowing, it's a matter of willpower. Just the same way wise ones can hold people in TAR when they try to leave, or how they can change someone else's clothes and keep that person from changing them back, even though the target knows it's not real.

 

Mogh told Nyn she knew a "binding" that would make her be a horse whenever she entered TAR and that no one but 9 forsaken knew the binding to undo it. Could be a lie, though sounds plausible, and interesting she called it a binding.

 

But clearly there are ways to impose things onto TAR trained people even though they know it's not real, it seems self evident those methods would have an advantage over teleporting melee and tracking skills, and I don't see Perrin being even remotely close to Egwene when it comes to imposing will on other people or things.