What does it mean to be Aes Sedai?

[jsbrads]

Egwene mentions that she has to find a way around the oaths because when they fight Seachan they need to kill ppl.

Siuan says NO! the oaths are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai.

 

My natural reaction is NO! An Aes Sedai is servant of all and an Aes Sedai who hides behind the three oaths to mislead people is beyond forgivable.

 

Also I believe that Aes Sedai can try to shield any damane but ultimately they can kill them too so not that big a problem...

[FarShainMael]

Why do you say the oaths mislead people? (Not saying that's wrong, necessarily, just wondering.)

[Terez]

Egwene mentions that she has to find a way around the oaths because when they fight Seachan they need to kill ppl.

Siuan says NO! the oaths are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai.

 

My natural reaction is NO! An Aes Sedai is servant of all and an Aes Sedai who hides behind the three oaths to mislead people is beyond forgivable.

More than that, the Oaths don't even work that well any more as far as that goes. Everyone is hearing all these rumors about Aes Sedai being involved in battles, etc. And Egwene's experiment at the river in COT is telling too.

 

@FSM - I think he is saying that they lead people to believe that they are trustworthy with the First Oath, but being bound by it has led them to become masters of truthful deception. So it's a false surety.

[Luckers]

Egwene mentions that she has to find a way around the oaths because when they fight Seachan they need to kill ppl.

Siuan says NO! the oaths are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai.

 

My natural reaction is NO! An Aes Sedai is servant of all and an Aes Sedai who hides behind the three oaths

 

I've always struggled with this too, and cling to the hope that it will be addressed. I think Cadsuane could do it--if Rand explains to Cadsuane the nature of the Oaths, I think Cadsuane has the clarity of mind and strength of self to be able to go against all her beliefs and foreswear the Oaths--and Cadsuane being Cadsuane she would make a lesson of it.

 

Firstly, in that lesson would be the fact that if Egwene's plan of Aes Sedai retiring into the Kin goes forward then what will soon result is that the women with the most experience will be the Kin, and additionally people don't change. Even if the former Aes Sedai try to walk small how long before the Kin come to mean exactly what the Aes Sedai are supposed to mean--after all the Red Belts in Ebou Dar nearly had this, and if Elayne's plan goes forward then the Kin will be much more viewable to the public in using their Power to assist.

 

I think Cadsuane is the perfect one to do this. She could resign the Oaths, and simply by being serve to make this point... a sort of...

 

"You understand you will no longer be Aes Sedai?" Egwene said firmly. "You will have no right to either shawl or title."

 

"I understand," Cadsuane replied. She did not add that it had been a very long time since she had needed either to get her way--after all she had no wish to scare the girl, and besides, by the sick look on Romanda's face Egwene would soon be hearing that warning.

 

Then after that Egwene merely need see the Aes Sedai reaction--there will no doubt those who still cleave to Cadsuane, and those who respect her--perhaps most importantly, the Aiel Wise Ones whom Egwene herself respects to such a great degree. Aes Sedai will no doubt go nuts, no matter what they think one way or the other of Cadsuane, then you go to a scene like this...

 

"Some wish me to restrain you."

 

Cadsuane smiled somewhat unpleasently, though in truth she had been far more cordial than Egwene had been led to expect. "Romanda, I presume?"

 

"Far more often," Egwene continued as if the woman had not spoken, "the simply ask 'why'. Why you, of all sisters, would give up being Aes Sedai?"

 

"Why?" Cadsuane seemed to be tasting the word. "I have a question in return, before I answer. And that is, what is it to be Aes Sedai?"

 

"Aes Sedai are many things," Egwene replied slowly. "Strong and wise, compassionate and knowledgeable. Many things, all tied together and defined by the Oaths."

 

"The Oaths," Cadsuane grimaced. "Once I might have answered so, but it is an easy answer. An answer that is answered by simply being sworn, and what then is the value of it? We say it to out novices: 'to seek, to strive, is to know danger...' where then do we seek? What do we strive for? And where is the danger that grants it value? No Mother, the Oaths may play their part, and may have been vital, but they are not what we are."

 

"What are we then?"

 

Cadsuane smiled, but did not answer, and suddenly Egwene realised that this was a test--and for Egwene, not Cadsuane. And what would occur if Egwene failed? For one, she suspected the woman opposite her would change into something far less cordial, but what else? Could Cadsuane alone oppose the Tower? Grimly Egwene remembered the way sisters had spoken of her in recent days, and worried that she could.

 

She met those dark eyes for a long moment, and then, finally, she said the only answer that came to her. "Servant of All."

 

"They told me you were quick," Cadsuane murmured, and then rose, gathering dignity around her like the shawl she no longer wore. "But you asked me a question, and my answer is thus; if I were not willing to give up the Shawl in order to continue the service it represents, would I have been worthy to wear it in the first place?"

 

The question hung in the air, and Egwene could find no answer that did not hurt. Finally, Cadsuane nodded, and turning, she glided from the room.

 

I'm still hoping for something like that.

 

Why do you say the oaths mislead people? (Not saying that's wrong, necessarily, just wondering.)

 

 

The Oaths are misleading in general, both to others, and to the Aes Sedai themselves... from my Thread on the Aes Sedai

 

The Three Oaths

 

The Three Oaths represent the single most foolish thing the Aes Sedai have ever done—binding themselves. Even aside from the age-limiting effects of being bound, the Oath’s themselves are counter-productive and dangerous. Consider;-

 

Implementation

 

They were instigated initially to placate the fear of the general populace, but they do not even achieve that. Binding ones ability to act does not stop others fearing or hating you, it just places limitations on how far that fear and hate can get. Perhaps that was necessary at the time—we don’t know enough about the political situation that was in play when the Oaths were sworn—but necessary or not the Aes Sedai should never have stopped there.

 

Consider, if you had a brain tumour you might take pain killers to help with the headaches, but you don’t just settle with that and take pain killers for the rest of your life, you treat the illness itself, in the hopes that you can stop taking the pain killers. That is what the Aes Sedai should have done—figured out how to stop the general public hating them, not simply treated that hate by binding themselves.

 

Aes Sedai should have been looking for ways to end the need for the binding, not turning the binding into a badge of pride. Oh, it’s a very Aes Sedai thing to do, to have to cut off a leg because it was caught in a trap and then proclaim to the world about how amazing you are for having no leg. But it was stupid of them to forget themselves the real nature of the Oaths—which is to say, a mark of their greatest failure. The failure to serve the people.

 

Practicality

 

The Oaths themselves are dangerous in a purely practical sense. Consider the Oath against using the power as a weapon, for instance. It makes sense when dealing with non-channelers. For all that non-channelers might take out an individual Aes Sedai, any major attack could easily be held off by purely defensive methods, or at the worse, by the opening of the oaths to protect ones life (I’m speaking on the large scale by the way, with many Aes Sedai involved).

 

However, that does not continue through into dealing with enemies that have their own channelers. Such an oath only makes sense when you are the stronger force, not when you must deal with peers. And as we have seen with the emergence of the Asha'men, not to mention the Wise Ones, Windfinders and damane, the Aes Sedai are not the stronger force.

 

The Aes Sedai were like adults in a world of children. When a child attacks them they can afford to simply hold them until they grow tired and then send them to bed without dinner. Now however other adults have walked onto the field, and the Aes Sedai cannot do anything until those adults have walked up an punched them in the face. And, when your dealing with channelers, a punch in the face is likely to kill. So here we are, with Aes Sedai unable to fight back until their lives are in danger, yet by the time they perceive the danger they’re likely dead.

 

The same applies to the oath against the making of weapons for one man to kill another. They put that oath in at the memory of the terrible damage done during the Age of Legends--yet did not pause to consider that that damage was done in fighting a terrible enemy. Had the Light not equipped itself then something far worse would have come from it. It was pure luck that none of the Forsaken had expertise in making weapons. If they had the Light would have been doomed at Tarmon Gai'don, completely unable to respond in time because of the Aes Sedai’s arrogance.

 

Subtle Dangers

 

What of the less obvious effects? Let's start with the original intentions of the Oaths--that they placate the fear of the masses. Certainly they have done so to a degree. Aes Sedai are trusted in a sense, and when they speak openly their words are taken as fact. But to go along with that are the constant iterance of phrases such as 'the truth an Aes Sedai speaks is not the truth you hear."

 

It seems counter-productive to me to make people know you can't hurt them by swearing oaths not to... it presents the image that without such oaths Aes Sedai would be lying, murdering, weapon-mongers. Yes they are stopped from doing such things, but it is still their nature.

 

And what of the effects on themselves. How long can a person who can't lie say something without coming to believe it to be true? Even when they know that they've manipulated the truth into a lie. Consider all the things Aes Sedai simply accepted as fact; should such intelligent, well-educated women such as they have been so simply accepting of the idea that the kin numbered a few dozen, that they gave up after a time and wandered off and stopped channeling?

 

This combines with the fact that all Aes Sedai are ‘wowed’ by their own image in order that even they fall victim to the perception that since they can't tell a lie, what they’ve said must obviously be the truth. Oh, they are intellectually aware of the holes in that, but after a time what began as opinion becomes fact simply by the woman opining must be speaking the truth. Its an epidemic of their entire culture. ‘Woman above a certain age will fail in the training’, ‘novices and accepted put out of the tower give up channeling’. On and on opinion becomes fact because its spoken by women who cannot lie.

 

And one final point on the oaths before i move on. What of the ethical implications? The three oaths address negative aspects of human nature. Lying, violence and creating instruments to do violence. Noble things to want to avoid doing; yet nonetheless at times these things are necessary. As such how does one decide when to employ them?

 

The answer is simple--employ them when they are necessary. The Aes Sedai however, do not reguard it so—for them it is not a case of ‘I do this when it’s necessary’, but rather, due to the fact that they are power-bound against such things, ‘I do this when it is allowed’. Look at them. Look how easily they lie by omission, or misrepresentation. There is absolutely no understanding of the concept and value of truth in them, and that is contemptible.

 

Worse, the Accepted actually practice lying as a part of the skills necessary to attain the shawl—oh, they call it giving Aes Sedai answers, but that’s what it amounts to. An institution which practices deception as part of gaining membership…

[FarShainMael]

So.. was it Ishy who instigated the Oaths, as well as establishing the Black Ajah? Of course, they have their own Three Oaths..

[Justanotherfacet]

I always got the inkling that Cadsuane had already removed the oaths from herself...

 

Also, its very easy to bash the oaths now-a-days however, in the past, especially during the great wars between mankind, they were probably essential. Think about what they enforce.

A sister may not kill another human - and therefore may not become a tool of war.

A sister may not construct a power wrought weapon - yet again to give no group of men an advantage over the other

A sister may tell no lies - and may not lure mankind into the sisters machinations (Though that one worked less well =P )

 

What i'm say is that the Oaths were an ESSENTIAL tool to prevent Aes Sedai from abusing their power and or from being bought as mercenaries for their power in the past.

But now, with the storm of Tarmon Gaidon looming on the horizon, the Aes Sedai and the rest of the world have bigger fish to fry than the concerns of kingdoms and of men. They are simply an inconvenience which hinders the forces of light against dark.

[Apple13]

They'll have to get rid of the Oaths, or modify them in any case, if they want to be able to fight the Seanchan damane on equal ground. As long they limit themselves to only fighting Shadowspawn, they're hindering themselves with everyone else who can channel. Especially since they're now in the same field with the Ashaman and the Seanchan damane, both of which groups are trained in killing weaves. As far as making them more trusted, it would be a good idea for them to give the Oaths up as a way for that to happen. It would be a better thing to instead earn the right to be trusted by other means, such as the Wise Ones do among the Aiel. That would also get rid of the age-shortening problem the Oaths have on the AS. Sure, Egwene thinks they can sidestep that by retiring into the Kin in their later years, but it has not yet been proven that this course would work. Plus I don't think the AS would really go for that arrangement anyway, since not all of them are healers or would be willing to set down roots in some small village and become some Wise Woman or other.

[Leyrann]

Egwene mentions that she has to find a way around the oaths because when they fight Seachan they need to kill ppl.

Siuan says NO! the oaths are what make Aes Sedai Aes Sedai.

 

My natural reaction is NO! An Aes Sedai is servant of all and an Aes Sedai who hides behind the three oaths

 

I've always struggled with this too, and cling to the hope that it will be addressed. I think Cadsuane could do it--if Rand explains to Cadsuane the nature of the Oaths, I think Cadsuane has the clarity of mind and strength of self to be able to go against all her beliefs and foreswear the Oaths--and Cadsuane being Cadsuane she would make a lesson of it.

 

Firstly, in that lesson would be the fact that if Egwene's plan of Aes Sedai retiring into the Kin goes forward then what will soon result is that the women with the most experience will be the Kin, and additionally people don't change. Even if the former Aes Sedai try to walk small how long before the Kin come to mean exactly what the Aes Sedai are supposed to mean--after all the Red Belts in Ebou Dar nearly had this, and if Elayne's plan goes forward then the Kin will be much more viewable to the public in using their Power to assist.

 

I think Cadsuane is the perfect one to do this. She could resign the Oaths, and simply by being serve to make this point... a sort of...

 

"You understand you will no longer be Aes Sedai?" Egwene said firmly. "You will have no right to either shawl or title."

 

"I understand," Cadsuane replied. She did not add that it had been a very long time since she had needed either to get her way--after all she had no wish to scare the girl, and besides, by the sick look on Romanda's face Egwene would soon be hearing that warning.

 

Then after that Egwene merely need see the Aes Sedai reaction--there will no doubt those who still cleave to Cadsuane, and those who respect her--perhaps most importantly, the Aiel Wise Ones whom Egwene herself respects to such a great degree. Aes Sedai will no doubt go nuts, no matter what they think one way or the other of Cadsuane, then you go to a scene like this...

 

"Some wish me to restrain you."

 

Cadsuane smiled somewhat unpleasently, though in truth she had been far more cordial than Egwene had been led to expect. "Romanda, I presume?"

 

"Far more often," Egwene continued as if the woman had not spoken, "the simply ask 'why'. Why you, of all sisters, would give up being Aes Sedai?"

 

"Why?" Cadsuane seemed to be tasting the word. "I have a question in return, before I answer. And that is, what is it to be Aes Sedai?"

 

"Aes Sedai are many things," Egwene replied slowly. "Strong and wise, compassionate and knowledgeable. Many things, all tied together and defined by the Oaths."

 

"The Oaths," Cadsuane grimaced. "Once I might have answered so, but it is an easy answer. An answer that is answered by simply being sworn, and what then is the value of it? We say it to out novices: 'to seek, to strive, is to know danger...' where then do we seek? What do we strive for? And where is the danger that grants it value? No Mother, the Oaths may play their part, and may have been vital, but they are not what we are."

 

"What are we then?"

 

Cadsuane smiled, but did not answer, and suddenly Egwene realised that this was a test--and for Egwene, not Cadsuane. And what would occur if Egwene failed? For one, she suspected the woman opposite her would change into something far less cordial, but what else? Could Cadsuane alone oppose the Tower? Grimly Egwene remembered the way sisters had spoken of her in recent days, and worried that she could.

 

She met those dark eyes for a long moment, and then, finally, she said the only answer that came to her. "Servant of All."

 

"They told me you were quick," Cadsuane murmured, and then rose, gathering dignity around her like the shawl she no longer wore. "But you asked me a question, and my answer is thus; if I were not willing to give up the Shawl in order to continue the service it represents, would I have been worthy to wear it in the first place?"

 

The question hung in the air, and Egwene could find no answer that did not hurt. Finally, Cadsuane nodded, and turning, she glided from the room.

 

I'm still hoping for something like that.

 

And you closed a thread (RJ's ending scene) because there was fanfic in it?

[Luckers]

Mmm. That night I'd spent about two hours dealing with complaints about Egwene bashing and the fights that errupted due to that, and I stepped into that thread and the first thing I saw was a peice about Egwene being an idiot. Forgive me for being human and having a bit of snap.

 

I do my best, but I ain't perfect.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I think people get too caught up in the literal translation of Aes Sedai, being Servants of All. Mostly from the standpoints that various opine go so far as to despise AS, because they aren't, for lack of better words, everywhere & everything to everybody in need.

 

I get how people could be down, but you ever notice whenever the world ends up being saved, Aes Sedai are knee deep in the involvement? I understand given the few examples we're given over the course of the series how people could be all rar-rar-rar oaths are dumb, Aes Sedai aren't doing what they should..! Granted those examples, we aren't privy to every moment of every Aes Sedai over the course of 3000 years.

 

To me it's always been a case of people seeing very, very few first hand examples, and then painting every member, or even the entire organization in a foul light as a result...Not that it's a fit parallel but let's say you meet a dirty cop, who's lazy, scum, and really big on themselves...therefore all cops are awful?

 

In any event, Servant of All, to me fits the bill pretty well because whenever we see the world saved, thhhhaarrr they be. War of Shadow, Trolloc Wars, a third of Hawkwing's appointed administrators & governors were Aes Sedai.

 

I guess it comes down to the differentiation between folks who see 'Servant of All', and want their troubles/problems/conflicts/boo-boos/whatever taken care of in microwave fashion - or you might be of the train of thought that by consistently playing a major role in saving existence, so that people may continue to be reborn, live new lives, new loves, everything Rand realizes in VoG...To me, that's what serving all really is about - the big picture.

[Muad Cheade]

The basic thing about the Aes Sedai and the Oaths is that it limits them and everyone knows it. As Suian says, even a footpad knows he's safe around an Aes Sedai.

 

That's the primary fear of the Asha'man. Nothing limits them and they are not really accountable to anyone but the M'hael and the Dragon Reborn

[FarShainMael]

How many common Randlanders know that the taint has been cleansed, and that these new male channellers are unlikely to go mad and tear their world apart? I'd say that was their primary fear - insanity takes no note of limits and is accountable to no-one.

[Aspar]

In any event, Servant of All, to me fits the bill pretty well because whenever we see the world saved, thhhhaarrr they be. War of Shadow, Trolloc Wars, a third of Hawkwing's appointed administrators & governors were Aes Sedai.

 

OK, these are good points. And they will play a major role in The Last Battle. Moiraine, Suan, Cadsuane, Egwene, Nyneave, Elayne - these are all AS that have or will play a major role. But they are only a part of all the ASs.

 

What i don't understand and probably was a part of another discussion here (sorry, too lazy to search it now) is why they havn't tried to get closer to the people. Like having a very active presence of Green and Yellow Sisters in the Borderlands fighting off Shadowspawn. Yellow sisters should be all over Randland. OK, they could gather once or twice a year to exchange knowledge, but during the rest of the time they should be helping people. Will anyone care about the Three Oaths if they saw how an AS saved a fellow villager from a lethal decease?

 

P.S.

 

I'm sorry guys, I'm really tired and have difficulty forming my toughts in English. Hope you get the main idea and don't mind the writing

[Turin Turambar]

Luckers, That is a cool scene. I was kind of hoping Nyn would say something along those lines in the aftermath of her testing. Something along the lines of "I would rather help people like Aes Sedai should than just run around in a shawl with an ageless face."

 

Her reasoning on the Balefire issue was also much like the arguement about removing the oaths. Basically that you will just have to trust my judgement, not some Oath not to do something that may be required in certain circumstances.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

I always got the inkling that Cadsuane had already removed the oaths from herself...

 

Also, its very easy to bash the oaths now-a-days however, in the past, especially during the great wars between mankind, they were probably essential. Think about what they enforce.

A sister may not kill another human - and therefore may not become a tool of war.

A sister may not construct a power wrought weapon - yet again to give no group of men an advantage over the other

A sister may tell no lies - and may not lure mankind into the sisters machinations (Though that one worked less well =P )

 

What i'm say is that the Oaths were an ESSENTIAL tool to prevent Aes Sedai from abusing their power and or from being bought as mercenaries for their power in the past.

But now, with the storm of Tarmon Gaidon looming on the horizon, the Aes Sedai and the rest of the world have bigger fish to fry than the concerns of kingdoms and of men. They are simply an inconvenience which hinders the forces of light against dark.

 

I agree. I think Cadsuane has already removed the oaths. What proof? First Callandor. In the battle with the Seanchan everyone is having problems with the One Power including having it striking allies before Rand even attempts to wield Callandor. When he does Saidin behaves exactly like we've seen behave with other wielders. Then Cadsuane comes up with a musty fact that no one else seems to know about its "flaw". A flaw that did not manifest at the Stone. And one that magically requires a woman to be in control. Also Cadsuane is the oldest known Aes Sedai by a fair amount. We know the oaths reduce lifespan. So it's not a huge leap to think that her increased life span is the result of removing the oaths.

[DemandredFO]

I think Nyneave took the Oaths to placate Egwene so she wouldn't be locked in the tower. Rand might convince Nyneave, Moraine and/or Cadsuane to remove the oaths. Its like Perrin said to Galad about Grady and Neald, I'll trust them until them give me reason not to.

About AS saving the world, they did well in the Trolloc Wars, but they brought down Manetheran first with who knows what consequences. They won but would the cost have been less with Manetheran and Eldraine? Maybe with their reduced numbers they can't be everywhere but that's because they stopped looking for girls. One of the reasons they're feared and distrusted is they're locked in the tower and only appear when a problem rears its head. The best AS, Cadsuane, Moraine, Nyneave all stayed as far away as they could get from the tower. Cadsuane didn't become a legend by playing daes demar, neither did Moiraine. The Wise Ones & Windfinders are respected in their societies and I have no doubt the Asha'Man will too once TG is over. To paraphrase Grady, The AM were fighting to die, with the taint gone they can live. Not to mention Elayne's plan for the Kin, while not completely altruistic she is giving free healing.

[Suttree]

About AS saving the world, they did well in the Trolloc Wars, but they brought down Manetheran first with who knows what consequences. They won but would the cost have been less with Manetheran and Eldraine?

 

Actually we do know what happened, Tetsuan was deposed and "stripped of stole and staff" for her crimes. After she was kept in the White Tower as a scullery maid who could be pointed to as a caution of what can happen to the mightiest." Let's not make light of what the AS have done. Like them or not they have saved the world at just about every crucial juncture throughout history.

 

One of the reasons they're feared and distrusted is they're locked in the tower and only appear when a problem rears its head.

 

This has been proven false in numerous threads lately. As YoniyO recently said:

 

As to the rest, each and every sister's rooms we've seen contained personal souvenirs that had to be collected over long periods of time in the outside world. Combine that with the fact that when Siuan was deposed over a third of the AS were busy outside of the Tower, and about a third felt the break in the Tower didn't merit leaving their work outside (despite an order from one of the Amyrlins), and we have a very different picture than the one you try to paint.

 

Cadsuane didn't become a legend by playing daes demar, neither did Moiraine.

 

Is this sarcasm? Moriaine is Cairhenian and as well versed in Daes Dae'mar as anyone and Cadsuane plays the game almost non stop as evidenced by her inner thoughts.

[Luckers]

I agree. I think Cadsuane has already removed the oaths. What proof? First Callandor. In the battle with the Seanchan everyone is having problems with the One Power including having it striking allies before Rand even attempts to wield Callandor. When he does Saidin behaves exactly like we've seen behave with other wielders. Then Cadsuane comes up with a musty fact that no one else seems to know about its "flaw". A flaw that did not manifest at the Stone. And one that magically requires a woman to be in control. Also Cadsuane is the oldest known Aes Sedai by a fair amount. We know the oaths reduce lifespan. So it's not a huge leap to think that her increased life span is the result of removing the oaths.

 

Firstly the flaw in Callandor manifests at the Stone--it's why Rand goes nuts about trying to heal the dead girl. Secondly, the flaw in Callandor manifests again in tPoD BEFORE Cadsuane explains it to him. Ultimately it is her explanation coupled to the two experiences he has had of trying to use Callandor that he chooses to use the Choedan Kal.

 

In addition RJ has confirmed the existence of the flaw, and cited it to have been caused by poor manufacturing standards resulting from the War of the Shadow.

 

Thirdly, Cadsuane is Ageless, and therefore bound by her Oaths.

 

Luckers, That is a cool scene. I was kind of hoping Nyn would say something along those lines in the aftermath of her testing. Something along the lines of "I would rather help people like Aes Sedai should than just run around in a shawl with an ageless face."

 

Her reasoning on the Balefire issue was also much like the arguement about removing the oaths. Basically that you will just have to trust my judgement, not some Oath not to do something that may be required in certain circumstances.

 

 

Thanks! I actually understand the Aes Sedai's position on balefire--the price is too high, and the gain too low. Of course they know about neither the Terminator-2 Darkhounds, nor that balefire is the only way to ensure the Forsaken stay dead--but then they've had no reason to suspect on either issue either.

[Hemis AlRhoid]

Firstly the flaw in Callandor manifests at the Stone--it's why Rand goes nuts about trying to heal the dead girl. Secondly, the flaw in Callandor manifests again in tPoD BEFORE Cadsuane explains it to him. Ultimately it is her explanation coupled to the two experiences he has had of trying to use Callandor that he chooses to use the Choedan Kal.

 

In addition RJ has confirmed the existence of the flaw, and cited it to have been caused by poor manufacturing standards resulting from the War of the Shadow.

 

Thirdly, Cadsuane is Ageless, and therefore bound by her Oaths.

 

I had never read that RJ confirmed the flaw. The flaw as seen in tPoD doesn't manifest itself any differently than the problems the other channelers were having which is why I was suspicious of it being real. I'd always thought Rand's actions at the Stone were simply his compassion for the girl and overestimating what the power can do even pulled through Callandor. But confirmed by RJ means it's there. As far as the ageless look, I'm not sure that if you removed the oaths after having your face physically altered for so long a time that it wouldn't retain the ageless look. Have we seen an Aes Sedai that has removed the oaths after a hundred or so years and not through stilling? I'm still suspicious of her life span.

[Never]

Luckers, I won't doubt you when you say that RJ confirmed the presence of a flaw, but can you be so sure that the event in tSR really can be attributed to a flawed sa'angreal? To me, it just seemed a heart-breaking passage about a man told he is do be mad and die, to save the world, to be thought of as godlike, you know, regular altruistic megalomania?

[Never]

 

 

I had never read that RJ confirmed the flaw. The flaw as seen in tPoD doesn't manifest itself any differently than the problems the other channelers were having which is why I was suspicious of it being real. I'd always thought Rand's actions at the Stone were simply his compassion for the girl and overestimating what the power can do even pulled through Callandor. But confirmed by RJ means it's there. As far as the ageless look, I'm not sure that if you removed the oaths after having your face physically altered for so long a time that it wouldn't retain the ageless look. Have we seen an Aes Sedai that has removed the oaths after a hundred or so years and not through stilling? I'm still suspicious of her life span.

 

Mrs. Anan, I believe.

[TheAngryDruid]

I'm still hoping this will be addressed as well. But a vain hope, I am coming to believe.

 

Still, Rand did tantalize us in ToM by saying that he alone (in the Light) was properly raised AS. Raised AS w/out the oaths.

 

I hope he reveals how they did it in the old days, and that, then, becomes an option for current Aes Sedai.

 

How many living are truly worthy of a third name? Moiraine? Cadsuane? Possibly Egwene? Nynaeve? Pevara? Not many.

[Turin Turambar]

 

 

I had never read that RJ confirmed the flaw. The flaw as seen in tPoD doesn't manifest itself any differently than the problems the other channelers were having which is why I was suspicious of it being real. I'd always thought Rand's actions at the Stone were simply his compassion for the girl and overestimating what the power can do even pulled through Callandor. But confirmed by RJ means it's there. As far as the ageless look, I'm not sure that if you removed the oaths after having your face physically altered for so long a time that it wouldn't retain the ageless look. Have we seen an Aes Sedai that has removed the oaths after a hundred or so years and not through stilling? I'm still suspicious of her life span.

 

Mrs. Anan, I believe.

She was "burned out" which is basically an inadvertant stilling. The affect would be the same you would expect. However when the BA hunters in the tower did the test and then the sitters in Salidar did the same they all removed all their oaths temporarily. there was no mention of their faces being changed.

 

If it worked AS would be lining up to remove the oaths so they could look younger. Well maybe just the greens.

[Suttree]

She was "burned out" which is basically an inadvertant stilling. The affect would be the same you would expect.

 

No it's not. If you are burned out you can no longer sense the source while those who are stilled can.

[Turin Turambar]

She was "burned out" which is basically an inadvertant stilling. The affect would be the same you would expect.

 

No it's not. If you are burned out you can no longer sense the source while those who are stilled can.

Ok. I thought it was basically the same. Learn something nw every day.