Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Gentled Ben]

it's not right and she knows it.

then she becomes self serving.

but, i know she will take it......eventually.

but i doubt we will see when she does.

 

I don't follow you. Can you elaborate? What is not right, why is it not right, how do we know that she knows it, and when and how does she then become self-serving?

[Zentari]

it's not right and she knows it.

then she becomes self serving.

but, i know she will take it......eventually.

but i doubt we will see when she does.

 

I don't follow you. Can you elaborate? What is not right, why is it not right, how do we know that she knows it, and when and how does she then become self-serving?

Her raising was because of a loop-hole.They followed the letter of the law, but not the spirit.If nothing else, wouldn't you say that it would only be reasonable for her to take the test for Aes Sedai ? It's not a question of her passing it, it's a question of formalities.If she claims the Aes Sedai tittle as her own , she should pass the test.

[Gentled Ben]

it's not right and she knows it.

then she becomes self serving.

but, i know she will take it......eventually.

but i doubt we will see when she does.

 

I don't follow you. Can you elaborate? What is not right, why is it not right, how do we know that she knows it, and when and how does she then become self-serving?

Her raising was because of a loop-hole.They followed the letter of the law, but not the spirit.If nothing else, wouldn't you say that it would only be reasonable for her to take the test for Aes Sedai ? It's not a question of her passing it, it's a question of formalities.If she claims the Aes Sedai tittle as her own , she should pass the test.

 

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient. Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

[Himiko]

Rand saying he can remember does sound insane, but if Nyneave is not being influenced by Rand, then Egwene has a problem since Rand is apperently sane but saying crazy stuff. In fact she herself remarks when she meets him that he seems perfectly sane but what he says is insane. Now of course if Nyneave is being influenced she has nothing to worry about, but why is she so sure that Nyneave is being influenced? That's what I'm getting at. At thhis point Egwene has no certainties, she's pretty much left in the dark, and can't come up with any absolute conclusions. Yet she's made the decision that Rand is wrong despite this. That's what surprised me and honestly dissapointed me somewhat. At no point did she seem to consider that there might something she wasn't aware of, some piece of information which Rand has which she doesn't. And that's something which she should have been able to logically deduce. Whether out of pride, or lack of attention, or having other things to deal with (like Mesaana), she never seemed to think that Rand might know something she didn't. And while I'm all for her being confident in herself, there's such a thing as being over confident.

 

 

This. She jumps to a conclusion- which may well be the right one, we won't know for sure until AMoL- on the basis of her dream, and the fact that breaking the seals sounds like a bad idea. But she doesn't even TRY and justify it to herself, or anyone else. Nynaeve thinks he might have a point- Nynave must be under ta'veren influence. She knows from Nynaeve that Rand has changed, but do we see her think "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't just the crazy talking..."? No. I don't necessarily think she should change her opinion, but I think she needs to examine it. Do research into it, like Min and HF did to get this idea in the first place. Consider other people's opinion, and offer a rebuttal based on their REASONING, rather than on "Well, you're under ta'veren influence!" Nynaeve could be under ta'veren influence and still be right. I mean, many people argue that Rand was wrong just to march in, say he was breaking the seals, and leave again with offers to talk later- and I can understand why, but I also think this might have been purposeful on Rand's part- but at least there is research leading him to believe that this course of action may be right. All we see of Egwene's thoughts are "No, that is a bad and crazy idea and must be stopped!", with no attempt to look deeper, even if it is to strengthen her own argument. I mean, what is she even going to say at Merrilor if that's her thought process? "Rand, you can't break the seals!" "Why?" "Because it's a crazy, frightening idea!" "Well, yes, its a frightening idea, but Min and HF have researched extensively, and we believe as a result..." "..."

 

Of course its understandable that its a frightening idea. But Egwene isn't some random woman. She is the head of her organisation. She is the leader of Tar Valon. She has forces at her command. Her words will be considered by leaders of the world. This is a matter that may be about the life or death of the world. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to stubbornly stick to her opinion and not consider its strengths and weaknesses. This is too important for that.

 

Similarly, with Gawyn- he's talking about something in ToM that may mean the difference between life and death. He has more military training than she does, and, if she wants to bond him as Warder, he will be in charge of her safety- which may well include stopping her from doing something that will put herself at serious risk- and yet, when he has a reasonable theory about someone other than Mesaana trying to kill her, she discounts it because he isn't being respectful enough of her in public. Whatever their public-power-dynamic issues, that should not impact Egwene's ability to take a thought on board. I mean, I find Gawyn irritating, and I would have been quite happy to see Eg get assassinated by the Seanchan, but even I was getting irritated by the time Gawyn stormed out of TV, by the sheer amount of "LALALA NOT LISTENING" attitude- Egwene only admits she made a mistake after Gawyn nearly gets killed fighting off the assassins he accurately predicted- and if he hadn't got back in time, or the Dreamspike had been blocking him, etc, then Egwene would have died before defeating Mesaana, meaning one of the Forsaken would still be roaming the tower, the AS would be left leaderless and prone to power struggles again, more of the AS/ WO's in T'A'R with Egwene might have been killed, since most of them didn't have her level of ability. Nynaeve might have died- you know, the most powerful current AS, one of the closest ties to the DR the tower has. So, yeah- Egwene refusing to listen nearly turned into one of the biggest balls-up by a major character in this series, disaster only narrowly averted at the last minute- and it wasn't even her averting it, it was Gawyn. She doesn't realise her mistake until its far too late and someone is bleeding all over her floor, surrounded by assassin corpses.

 

Its essentially a point where confidence stops being a strength in a leader and becomes a weakness- if a conflicting opinion is offered, or if its not delivered respectfully enough, then Egwene has shown she is willing to discount it. Of course, a leader has to show confidence in herself, and be strong in her convictions, but that is not the same as refusing to take on advice if its not delivered "properly", or simply not considering any other points of view. Confidence in oneself= good. But personally, I'd rather Egwene does some research, considers WHY Min, Rand, Nynaeve and co believe there might be something in this idea instead of just dismissing them, because otherwise, she is not showing strength and confidence, she is showing stubbornness, on a matter that might save or break the world. And, on the offchance that these (not unintelligent) characters are right about breaking the seals, I'd kind of rather the world wasn't bleeding on her study floor by the time Egwene goes "Damn, should probably have listened to them afterall!" this time :P

[Suttree]

No. I don't necessarily think she should change her opinion, but I think she needs to examine it. Do research into it, like Min and HF did to get this idea in the first place. Consider other people's opinion, and offer a rebuttal based on their REASONING, rather than on "Well, you're under ta'veren influence!" Nynaeve could be under ta'veren influence and still be right. I mean, many people argue that Rand was wrong just to march in, say he was breaking the seals, and leave again with offers to talk later- and I can understand why, but I also think this might have been purposeful on Rand's part- but at least there is research leading him to believe that this course of action may be right. All we see of Egwene's thoughts are "No, that is a bad and crazy idea and must be stopped!", with no attempt to look deeper, even if it is to strengthen her own argument. I mean, what is she even going to say at Merrilor if that's her thought process? "Rand, you can't break the seals!" "Why?" "Because it's a crazy, frightening idea!" "Well, yes, its a frightening idea, but Min and HF have researched extensively, and we believe as a result..." "..."

 

Maybe there was a reason for Rand handling it the way he did, but I wish he would have just told Eggy he had Min researching and asked the Browns and WT library for help. He has already admitted he doesn't know how to seal the DO and told Min he needs her to find it for him. We know Cads was able to confirm Min being right concerning the prophecy. There may reasons why he couldn't of asked for help but in my mind it would have gone much smoother had he put everyone on the job digging for info.

 

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

except too her friends

 

Because tyrants ever have thoughts like...

 

tPoD "Stronger than Written Law"

Recently all her dreams about Mat were pale and full of pain, like shadows cast by nightmares, almost as though Mat himself were not quite real. That made her afraid for him, left behind in Ebou Dar, and gave her agonies of grief for sending him there, not to mention poor old Thom Merrilin.

 

Combine this with the quote about Rand provided earlier in the thread and she is far from the "tyrant" some posters claim.

[Zentari]

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient.

There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ?

Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims.

 

 

Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.

[Luckers]

On the other hand, taking the tests could have had negative effects. To do so would be to be to acknowledge that she was not yet Aes Sedai, which would have retroactively invalidated her claim--the law is clear, 'the Amyrlin Seat, as Aes Sedai...'

 

To do so would be to give ammunition to anyone who opposed her claim.

[ZeshanHamdani]

this is the main reason she can't do it, maybe she will get rid of the testings completely.

i don't know, but i feel she should have done the testing.

and state that she does it, because she is Aes Sedai and she needs to do it for the betterment of herself and for sake of tradition.

look at what Nyneave gained by doing it. Nyneave knows that the tower comes after Lan.

it might give Egwene some more perspective.

[Gentled Ben]

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient.

There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ?

Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims.

 

 

Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.

 

I don't really see your point. Obviously, they never considered that a woman who was not Aes Sedai would be considered for the Amyrlin Seat, and that is where the loophole came from. However, it also clearly states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." which is the basis for her title as Aes Sedai. She is Aes Sedai by virtue of being Amyrlin, and that is made quite clear in the books. I am sure you are aware of it. Because of that, she does not need to take the test in order to claim that title; it is hers by right as Amyrlin Seat. Again, what does it matter if she ever takes the test or not?

 

No, it is not a private conversation, but I asked him to clarify his statement, not for someone else's interpretation of his statement.

[Luckers]

Ok, remember the 'play nice' instruction. People are getting a little bit blunt. :)

[ZeshanHamdani]

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient.

There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ?

Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims.

 

 

Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.

 

I don't really see your point. Obviously, they never considered that a woman who was not Aes Sedai would be considered for the Amyrlin Seat, and that is where the loophole came from. However, it also clearly states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." which is the basis for her title as Aes Sedai. She is Aes Sedai by virtue of being Amyrlin, and that is made quite clear in the books. I am sure you are aware of it. Because of that, she does not need to take the test in order to claim that title; it is hers by right as Amyrlin Seat. Again, what does it matter if she ever takes the test or not?

 

No, it is not a private conversation, but I asked him to clarify his statement, not for someone else's interpretation of his statement.

 

which statement did u want me to clarify, cause I don't remember if i did clarify or not. lol hahaha.

please be nice. no prison shanks into anyones kidneys please.

LOL

[Hadilmir]

Egwene does in fact decide not to take the Test after Nynaeve's testing. It's obvious being familiar with T'A'R interferes with the Testing ter'angreal, and being an expert in it could have worse effects. Besides, as Luckers has pointed out, there's no need to do it. The Aes Sedai respect her as Amyrlin and Aes Sedai regardless, doing so now would simply be an unnecessary danger which could only show she doubts herself as Aes Sedai.

[Zentari]

On the other hand, taking the tests could have had negative effects. To do so would be to be to acknowledge that she was not yet Aes Sedai, which would have retroactively invalidated her claim--the law is clear, 'the Amyrlin Seat, as Aes Sedai...'

 

To do so would be to give ammunition to anyone who opposed her claim.

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

She's been raised by both sides of the Tower conflict. There's no need for further formalities. What is the spirit of the law, and how does she not fulfill it? How is she not the very embodiment of the White Tower at this point? If she was not fully Aes Sedai, she could not have shamed the Tower Sitters at her raising the way she did, but they hung their heads because they knew they had failed, and that she had the moral authority, not just the technical authority, to scold them for it. If the Aes Sedai themselves accept her, and it is clear that they do, then that should be sufficient.

There was no requirement for the Amyrlin to be Aes Sedai prior.Do you believe it to be so because a)it went without saying that only an Aes Sedai would even be considered for the position or b) because they saw the prospect of rising a non-aes sedai to it ?

Aes Sedai accept her, true.Still, she never took that test, for a tittle she claims.

 

 

Also, Zeshan can probably answer for himself, he has done so just fine thus far.

True, just like I give my own opinion.Unless this is a private convo in which case, sorry for intruding.

 

I don't really see your point. Obviously, they never considered that a woman who was not Aes Sedai would be considered for the Amyrlin Seat, and that is where the loophole came from. However, it also clearly states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." which is the basis for her title as Aes Sedai. She is Aes Sedai by virtue of being Amyrlin, and that is made quite clear in the books. I am sure you are aware of it. Because of that, she does not need to take the test in order to claim that title; it is hers by right as Amyrlin Seat. Again, what does it matter if she ever takes the test or not?

 

No, it is not a private conversation, but I asked him to clarify his statement, not for someone else's interpretation of his statement.

Thank you for answering.The fact that they never considered it and it happened is what messes things up. The law states "The Amyrlin, as Aes Sedai..." because they ONLY considered an Aes Sedai candidate.It was never about getting a free shawl.Thus they violated the spirit of the law while adhering to the letter.

[ironisles]

Did Rand mention to her that he is the only one properly raised to Aes Sedai? I would imagine that it wouldn't go over too well.

[Dewairah]

Did Rand mention to her that he is the only one properly raised to Aes Sedai? I would imagine that it wouldn't go over too well.

 

Hahaha it would amuse me no end if rand could actually tel them what the tests were for and what the hundred weaves were for....

[Luckers]

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

 

Sure they are. Romanda and Lelaine are chewing at the bit not even a day after the Purge of the Black Ajah. Beyond that, the distinction would be that Egwene would have acknowledged the issue. Technically, Egwene is legally Aes Sedai whether she passed the tests or not, but to do them now would be to infer that Egwene accepted that she was not actually Aes Sedai, and that would be far more damaging.

 

It does make a difference. If someone attacks Egwene on that, they come off looking petty--Egwene's achievements come into play then, as does the fact that technically she is Aes Sedai. However if Egwene does the test now, then she would be the one making raising the issue, and thus provide official support for the argument against Egwene--something that could not be attained otherwise.

 

Egwene's way was best. Having Nynaeve do the test shows the gesture that Egwene respects the system in place, but doesn't expose her to attack.

[Zentari]

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

 

Sure they are. Romanda and Lelaine are chewing at the bit not even a day after the Purge of the Black Ajah. Beyond that, the distinction would be that Egwene would have acknowledged the issue. Technically, Egwene is legally Aes Sedai whether she passed the tests or not, but to do them now would be to infer that Egwene accepted that she was not actually Aes Sedai, and that would be far more damaging.

 

It does make a difference. If someone attacks Egwene on that, they come off looking petty--Egwene's achievements come into play then, as does the fact that technically she is Aes Sedai. However if Egwene does the test now, then she would be the one making raising the issue, and thus provide official support for the argument against Egwene--something that could not be attained otherwise.

Which brings us back to what I was saying : if it's dirt they want, they'll find it one way or another.Egwene taking the test would not make her the one raising the issue, heck she could use it to even further silence the others (take it,pass it, then give a speech about rules applying to everyone).They are not gonna go public at it, and even if they were a public confrontation (like the one where the hall was talking without her but public) would ground any arguments against her.

 

It's not about it being inconvenient or dangerous to her, it's about her being ok with the status quo.Apparently,so are the AS but then again, you can't really call out someone with Eg's achievement's a cheater,can you ?

 

Egwene's way was best. Having Nynaeve do the test shows the gesture that Egwene respects the system in place, but doesn't expose her to attack.

Funny you would bring that up as an example, given how it was one of Egwene's failures.An Amyrlin must be impartial , but that goes both ways.

[Luckers]

Which brings us back to what I was saying : if it's dirt they want, they'll find it one way or another.

 

And I reiterate my point--there is a difference between them throwing dirt, and Egwene doing it for them.

 

Egwene taking the test would not make her the one raising the issue, heck she could use it to even further silence the others (take it,pass it, then give a speech about rules applying to everyone).

 

Yes, it does. The Amyrlin must be Aes Sedai--the law is very clear on that. For Egwene to take the tests now is to infer that she accepts that she was not Aes Sedai, and not the Amyrlin--in effect it legally invalidates her claim.

 

Given that her claim is based on a technicality, that would be a very dangerous, very foolish thing for her to do.

 

Funny you would bring that up as an example, given how it was one of Egwene's failures.An Amyrlin must be impartial , but that goes both ways

 

I don't necessarily approve of Egwene being present during Nynaeve's testing, but that's a different point--the choice of making a gesture to the system that she herself had evaded was clever--having Nynaeve follow through with the testing is a gesture of good faith to the Aes Sedai, showing her respect of their ways. Not doing it herself was also clever.

 

Effectively it was the wisest way of dealing with the question of the testing. Now if Egwene had simply kept her nose completely clear of it, it would have been an act of political perfection, but meh.

[Louise]

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

Sure they are. Romanda and Lelaine are chewing at the bit not even a day after the Purge of the Black Ajah. Beyond that, the distinction would be that Egwene would have acknowledged the issue. Technically, Egwene is legally Aes Sedai whether she passed the tests or not, but to do them now would be to infer that Egwene accepted that she was not actually Aes Sedai, and that would be far more damaging.

 

I'd say the Red Ajah would be all for throwing punches too, despite Egwene choosing Silviana as Keeper. She's got a lot of work to do to win them over, I doubt they would be hesitant to try and undermine her. Particularly Katerine.

 

It's better left as is IMO. As Luckers said she can't go admitting that she's still just an Accepted. Despite both parties standing to raise her, her position is still tedious enough until she can prove herself, and only time will bring sufficient proof for her doubters.

[Leyrann]

Wow... Lot of discussion last night...

 

 

So if a character never explicitly says something at the moment the action happens it can't possibly be true? And yet at the same time she didn't say. "Yes! Now I can continue my world domination by gathering more power to myself" and yet you believe that. Long story short you just assume the worst.

Care to explain how the bullying and forcing Myrelle to swear had anything to do with this ? I waive the other AS since that explanation CAN be applied to their situations (doubtful, but it can).

 

And no, you can't say we just assume the best because Egwene has stated since tGH she wants to help Rand. She stated since becoming Amyrlin she wouldn't be a puppet, and she has stated since being released from seanchan that she won't be captured again. And to the Wise Ones whom she clearly states she respects she wants to tie the channelers together, and they agree to her plans. Those are her motivations. And of course defeating the dark one.

Really ? Does that include the part with the lace binding ? The one she bullies nyn ? When she jumps at Myrelle ? Planning to change kings because they didn't jump on her word ? So yeah, I can say that you are pretty much assume the best when even good is debatable.

 

Where does she bully Nyn? When Nyn has to call her mother? That was so that Nyn would act the same to her as Elayne does. So that in public no one would see how close they were.

 

 

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

I like my horse.I enjoy looking at you plebes from high up ! </sarcasm>

Any actual arguments to be made ?

 

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily.

So power-hungry is the wrong term because she feels justified in doing so ? Awesome.She seeks power for a reason, but she still seeks it, with forceful persuasion if necessary.

 

She seeks it, because it's the only way to help Rand. That's not power-hungry, that's saving the world. Rand looks more power-hungry, with his force in Arad Doman in TGS.

 

Rand saying he can remember does sound insane, but if Nyneave is not being influenced by Rand, then Egwene has a problem since Rand is apperently sane but saying crazy stuff. In fact she herself remarks when she meets him that he seems perfectly sane but what he says is insane. Now of course if Nyneave is being influenced she has nothing to worry about, but why is she so sure that Nyneave is being influenced? That's what I'm getting at. At thhis point Egwene has no certainties, she's pretty much left in the dark, and can't come up with any absolute conclusions. Yet she's made the decision that Rand is wrong despite this. That's what surprised me and honestly dissapointed me somewhat. At no point did she seem to consider that there might something she wasn't aware of, some piece of information which Rand has which she doesn't. And that's something which she should have been able to logically deduce. Whether out of pride, or lack of attention, or having other things to deal with (like Mesaana), she never seemed to think that Rand might know something she didn't. And while I'm all for her being confident in herself, there's such a thing as being over confident.

 

 

This. She jumps to a conclusion- which may well be the right one, we won't know for sure until AMoL- on the basis of her dream, and the fact that breaking the seals sounds like a bad idea. But she doesn't even TRY and justify it to herself, or anyone else. Nynaeve thinks he might have a point- Nynave must be under ta'veren influence. She knows from Nynaeve that Rand has changed, but do we see her think "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't just the crazy talking..."? No. I don't necessarily think she should change her opinion, but I think she needs to examine it. Do research into it, like Min and HF did to get this idea in the first place. Consider other people's opinion, and offer a rebuttal based on their REASONING, rather than on "Well, you're under ta'veren influence!" Nynaeve could be under ta'veren influence and still be right. I mean, many people argue that Rand was wrong just to march in, say he was breaking the seals, and leave again with offers to talk later- and I can understand why, but I also think this might have been purposeful on Rand's part- but at least there is research leading him to believe that this course of action may be right. All we see of Egwene's thoughts are "No, that is a bad and crazy idea and must be stopped!", with no attempt to look deeper, even if it is to strengthen her own argument. I mean, what is she even going to say at Merrilor if that's her thought process? "Rand, you can't break the seals!" "Why?" "Because it's a crazy, frightening idea!" "Well, yes, its a frightening idea, but Min and HF have researched extensively, and we believe as a result..." "..."

 

Of course its understandable that its a frightening idea. But Egwene isn't some random woman. She is the head of her organisation. She is the leader of Tar Valon. She has forces at her command. Her words will be considered by leaders of the world. This is a matter that may be about the life or death of the world. She doesn't have the luxury of being able to stubbornly stick to her opinion and not consider its strengths and weaknesses. This is too important for that.

 

Don't forget that she says that you have to prove you are right, by using arguments (at Elaida's dinner). Do you say here she wouldn't follow what is maybe the most important rule for her?

 

Similarly, with Gawyn- he's talking about something in ToM that may mean the difference between life and death. He has more military training than she does, and, if she wants to bond him as Warder, he will be in charge of her safety- which may well include stopping her from doing something that will put herself at serious risk- and yet, when he has a reasonable theory about someone other than Mesaana trying to kill her, she discounts it because he isn't being respectful enough of her in public. Whatever their public-power-dynamic issues, that should not impact Egwene's ability to take a thought on board. I mean, I find Gawyn irritating, and I would have been quite happy to see Eg get assassinated by the Seanchan, but even I was getting irritated by the time Gawyn stormed out of TV, by the sheer amount of "LALALA NOT LISTENING" attitude- Egwene only admits she made a mistake after Gawyn nearly gets killed fighting off the assassins he accurately predicted- and if he hadn't got back in time, or the Dreamspike had been blocking him, etc, then Egwene would have died before defeating Mesaana, meaning one of the Forsaken would still be roaming the tower, the AS would be left leaderless and prone to power struggles again, more of the AS/ WO's in T'A'R with Egwene might have been killed, since most of them didn't have her level of ability. Nynaeve might have died- you know, the most powerful current AS, one of the closest ties to the DR the tower has. So, yeah- Egwene refusing to listen nearly turned into one of the biggest balls-up by a major character in this series, disaster only narrowly averted at the last minute- and it wasn't even her averting it, it was Gawyn. She doesn't realise her mistake until its far too late and someone is bleeding all over her floor, surrounded by assassin corpses.

 

Yes, she was wrong by bulling Gawyn. But she didn't knew that. Doesn't sound a blurry shadow you can't hit with your sword as Shadowspawn? She wanted to fight Mesaana in TAR, and had a trap she thought would be sufficient. And I understand that.

 

And don't forget she was very disappointed when Gawyn let her trap sprung somewhat earlier. I would also bully/punish (whatever you prefer) someone who did something like that. As she says, now they know of the trap.

 

Its essentially a point where confidence stops being a strength in a leader and becomes a weakness- if a conflicting opinion is offered, or if its not delivered respectfully enough, then Egwene has shown she is willing to discount it. Of course, a leader has to show confidence in herself, and be strong in her convictions, but that is not the same as refusing to take on advice if its not delivered "properly", or simply not considering any other points of view. Confidence in oneself= good. But personally, I'd rather Egwene does some research, considers WHY Min, Rand, Nynaeve and co believe there might be something in this idea instead of just dismissing them, because otherwise, she is not showing strength and confidence, she is showing stubbornness, on a matter that might save or break the world. And, on the offchance that these (not unintelligent) characters are right about breaking the seals, I'd kind of rather the world wasn't bleeding on her study floor by the time Egwene goes "Damn, should probably have listened to them afterall!" this time :P

 

As I said above, her most important rule is: Using arguments.

 

Sorry for the long post. I tried to address everyone not yet addressed.

[Leyrann]

True but irrelevant.If finding dirt to fling at her is their purpose , they could do the same with her not having passed the test.Not to mention that it would be ridiculous to call her out on self-esteem when she has single-handedly (so to speak) rooted out the black ajah.They are not gonna call her out on issues of competence anytime soon.Thus that issue is moot.

 

Sure they are. Romanda and Lelaine are chewing at the bit not even a day after the Purge of the Black Ajah. Beyond that, the distinction would be that Egwene would have acknowledged the issue. Technically, Egwene is legally Aes Sedai whether she passed the tests or not, but to do them now would be to infer that Egwene accepted that she was not actually Aes Sedai, and that would be far more damaging.

 

I'd say the Red Ajah would be all for throwing punches too, despite Egwene choosing Silviana as Keeper. She's got a lot of work to do to win them over, I doubt they would be hesitant to try and undermine her. Particularly Katerine.

 

I don't know what you mean exactly, but Katerine is Black, not Red.

[Kahsm]

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily. Overturning Elaida was the right thing to do, taking control of the hall so they can act together was the right thing to do.

 

Example of her being power hungry please. Or is this more of the "Egwene's a douche" agenda that Luckers banned?

 

She's not power hungry at all. She's influence needy, and only a strong tower will regain it's lost influence. But that can be a good strength, used as it once was long ago. What indication is there that Egwene is moving towards a final empire instead of an AoL? If you're starting from the basis that a strong white tower is a bad thing no matter what, then no Egwene will never be justified in your eyes, and I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

I was shot down for saying this earlier, so maybe I phrased it incorrectly, but I think the bottom line is that Egwene puts the White Tower above everything else, as has been pointed out before. She still wants the WT to be the main power in the world, with more communication and relationships with the other channelers, but still on top. She's not Elaida, power hungry just for the sake of being powerful. She is, however, in a position of power and does what she has to according to that position. I don't personally think she's a very likeable character, but she makes a competent Amyrlin, moreso than some of the more appealing characters would.

 

See above, but generally I agree with the caveat that being on top is seen as a necessity in defeating the shadow, helping rand, and discovering the lost weaves and such. Which is likely all true since the other channeling factions are not like channeling universities but channeling industries where it is put to use and innovations are more focused.

 

lol, ty.

i totally forgot that.

but, she has not taken nor will she take the test for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Well first, so? And second, what proof do you have that she will not take it? Her thoughts, as highlighted in bold text in my quote, indicate that she intends to take the test someday.

 

Sorry, I thought I had quoted the relevant post when I responded the first time.

 

She never had any intension of taking the test, for the reasons Luckers notes. What she was referring to when she says she'll remedy it, is the dissention she knows is not being spoken. She says no one mentioned it. What is unsaid is her certainty that people are thinking it. That is what she says she'll remedy.

 

 

So if a character never explicitly says something at the moment the action happens it can't possibly be true? And yet at the same time she didn't say. "Yes! Now I can continue my world domination by gathering more power to myself" and yet you believe that. Long story short you just assume the worst.

Care to explain how the bullying and forcing Myrelle to swear had anything to do with this ? I waive the other AS since that explanation CAN be applied to their situations (doubtful, but it can).

 

And no, you can't say we just assume the best because Egwene has stated since tGH she wants to help Rand. She stated since becoming Amyrlin she wouldn't be a puppet, and she has stated since being released from seanchan that she won't be captured again. And to the Wise Ones whom she clearly states she respects she wants to tie the channelers together, and they agree to her plans. Those are her motivations. And of course defeating the dark one.

Really ? Does that include the part with the lace binding ? The one she bullies nyn ? When she jumps at Myrelle ? Planning to change kings because they didn't jump on her word ? So yeah, I can say that you are pretty much assume the best when even good is debatable.

 

So you could at least get off the crazy horse and complain about how she does things and not ascribe crazy motivations that don't exist. She is not a Tyrant.

I like my horse.I enjoy looking at you plebes from high up ! </sarcasm>

Any actual arguments to be made ?

 

Trying to claim Egwene isn't power-hungry is like trying to claim Perrin isn't cautious and methodical. Some characteristics are just too central to be denied.

Power-hungry is the wrong term. It implies she's out for power regardless of competence etc. Rather, Egwene is acting in a way she believes to be the best. She doesn't seize power unnecessarily.

So power-hungry is the wrong term because she feels justified in doing so ? Awesome.She seeks power for a reason, but she still seeks it, with forceful persuasion if necessary.

 

No I don't care to explain it. I don't see what the problem is. How many Aes Sedai has she made swear to her since both sides reunited? Zero. Not very good at being power hungry since she has stopped. She needed people she felt she could trust. As I said, you should debate how she decides to do things she's actually trying to do. Using this to prove she's the next Artur Hawkwing is ridiculous.

 

Yes it does inclue the bind with lace, I specifically added that because I know you still don't understand that scene, "they agree to her plans". Binding together is not a necessarily a bad thing, particularly when they want to be bound. lace is frilly, not strong enough to actually hold anyone. So to be bound with lace is to want to stay bound, to be content in the relationship. Egwene does not want the other channeling women to become reclusive again so she must bind them together for the benefit of them all, and she will do it by making them partnerships they will not refuse, like channeler exchange program.

[sleepinghour]

Egwene does in fact decide not to take the Test after Nynaeve's testing. It's obvious being familiar with T'A'R interferes with the Testing ter'angreal, and being an expert in it could have worse effects.

Egwene decided that before Nynaeve took the test. Furthermore, if she's truly concerned that this will be an issue, why teach Nicola and other Accepted to use T'A'R?

 

(As an aside, I don't believe Nynaeve's practice in T'A'R is the real reason why she was able to break the rules. Brandon confirmed that the weave placed on the Accepted prior to the Aes Sedai test is similar to Compulsion, and Nynaeve was able to break out of Moghedien's full-strength Compulsion in TSR. Nynaeve also did something similar in the Accepted test where she not only managed to channel without being burned out, she created a new exit when the regular one disappeared.)

 

"Let it no longer be thought that I can avoid keeping the Three Oaths," Egwene announced. "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai." None of them said anything about her not having taken the test to gain the shawl. She would see to that another day.

Egwene blinked in surprise. "Nynaeve, these are very complex weaves. I haven't had time to memorize all of them; I swear that many are needlessly ornate simply to be difficult." Egwene had no intention of going through the testing herself, and didn't need to. The law was specific. By being made Amyrlin, she had become Aes Sedai.

Perhaps it isn't legally necessary, but IMO, she owes it to all the Accepted who are forced to spend countless hours learning the difficult weaves and kicked out of the Tower if they fail. She will look like a giant hypocrite every time she makes an Accepted leave the Tower for not having passed the test, while she herself gets to stay.

 

I disagree with the argument that it will legally invalidate her claim to be Aes Sedai/Amyrlin; if that were the case, she shouldn't have sworn the oaths either or told the Hall "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai" right after swearing those oaths.

 

That Egwene claimed in TGS that she would take the test, only to dismiss the idea in ToM while at the same time putting Nynaeve through such a brutal test, makes her look even worse.

[Kahsm]

That Egwene claimed in TGS that she would take the test, only to dismiss the idea in ToM while at the same time putting Nynaeve through such a brutal test, makes her look even worse.

We posted nearly at the same time, but I offered another explanation for her TGS quote in my above post. She never intended to take the test.

 

The oaths and the testing are very different things. Oaths define Aes Sedai almost as much as channeling in the eyes of the common folk. The Aes Sedai test could be changed and the rest of the world wouldn't care. She tells Nyn and Elayne she needs them to swear the oaths before others start thinking they could also go without. Thinking about changing the Aes Sedai test is FAR less outwardly damaging and something Egwene may want to, or should do, anyway.

[Guest PiotrekS]

because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's

 

Do you have a quote on that? Would like to check it out...

 

Wow, a lot has happened in this thread while I was away, so I'll just add that apart from what Randsc has said, I'm sure there is another and maybe even stronger quote from Brandon saying that Egwene in TGS was almost all RJ's. I'm unable to look for it right now, but I'm pretty sure I've read it somewhere.

Here's some more non existent introspection from everyone's favourite Amyrlin.

 

I should be dead, she realized. If Gawyn hadn't stopped these assassins, she'd have been murdered in her sleep and would have vanished from Tel'aran'rhiod. She'd never have killed Mesaana.

Suddenly, she felt a fool, any sense of victory completely evaporating.

 

Either I've missed something, or all of your quotes come from ToM, in which a subtle change in Egwene's character happened IMHO. She is more introspective and self-critical. It seems to me it is Brandon's addition, because TGS's Egwene was almost all RJ's and she was totally different, absolutely dominated by her "perfect Amyrlin" persona. RJ even made her give advice on warders to some old Aes Sedai which was beyond ridiculous. I wonder if Brandon's take on Egwene was influenced by her perception by the readers, or maybe more by his own feelings as a long-time fan.

 

When it is is irrelevant given the language in the hate posts is that she "never" does these things. Also, there are plenty from before she's amyrlin too, I have quoted her first meeting with Avi as an example in the past.

 

There is another in TSR when she notes feeling silly for having jealously hogged the dream ter'angreal because at one point she wished Elayne or Nyn could go with her but they were too untrained at that point since she never gave them a chance to try it before she felt she needed the assistance searching for the BA in Tanchico.

 

Somebody has shown other quotes from earlier books, so you can't seriously claim that there were absolutely no introspective moments for Egwene. How much does these moments of self-reflection and maybe self-doubt matter for various characters is a different thing. So while you can find isolated quotes showing a more compassionate or introspective side of Egwene (who is a Light-side chjaracter after all), it can't in my opinion be seriously argued that she is a person who questiones herself often in comparison to other characters. She tends to accept that she has an absolute right to do the things she does.

 

Trying to get into Rand's dreams is a good example - whatever you think about her motives, Kael Pyralis, she simply had no right to spy on his dreams, which are a part of his most private life. Wise Ones also did not have such rights, but while they did not have any "friendship" connection to him and were somehow excused by their duty to the Aiel, she tried to do it simply because she thought that she could.

 

I find it funny that in any Egwene discussion the argument about Egwene giving advice on warders is so consistently ignored by posters who are usually ready to rebut every other criticism of Egwene or the way she is written. My main problem is the writing of her arc specifically by RJ - Egwnene herself, as a character, is only slightly more irritating than others, but the pompous, extremely unrealistic and heavy-handed way in which her arc is conducted makes it much more difficult to stomach. That's true that various groups are taken down in WOT to make our main heroes look better - the Forsaken and the Aes Sedai are two main victims. But what happened to Siuan, Lelaine, Romanda and above all else Elaida, was simply carricaturish.