Rand Kneeling to Empress (speculation)

[Sharaman]

LTT was the "Chief Servant" and the Nine Rods of Dominion reported to him. We don't know if he was elected and ditto the nine rods. We also don't know what the qualification criteria were for being Chief Servant, etc. Nor do we know the limits of his political powers and if they were limited by constitution.

 

We do know that there were a wide variety of professions, no wars and no apparent coercion respectively from the examples of the variety of Forsaken professions, the conversation Belal had with Rand, and the thoughts of the AoL Aiel ancestors that Rand accessed. Also that strong channelers couldn't run riot - they would held and bound as criminals if they broke the law.

As least two of those professions - Belal= lawyer and Moggy= financial adviser suggest that individuals had both financial choice and recourse to the law.

 

That argues for an egalitarian society which didn't have a great deal of oppression. But it's not conclusive proof.

It may have been a democracy or a partial democracy (universal franchise/ not).

We don't know.

[AshaShan]

Unless there are objective criteria by which it can be judged, saying modern US is better than Mongolian empire is just an opinion. I'd rather live in the modern US, but would the Mongol hordes? Rand has lived his entire life in a world that accepts kings and queens as the norm. Rand has no moral obligation to point out the flaws in Third Age governments unless he takes that obligation upon himself. How much of the "good" in the AoL came from governmental systems and how much came from their technological advances?

 

Modern USA > Mongolian Empire every day of the week. AOL > 3rd Age too.

 

Meaning no offense Ares, but I recall not too long ago peeking at a thread where you and a bunch of other guys debated whether Egwene was stronger than the Forsaken. RJ is on record saying she isn't but you guys went at it for weeks over that topic and I found myself shaking my head wondering what was wrong with you all. I'm not going to argue with you just for the sake of arguing - on the topic of the relative worths of the above cultures, lets simply agree to disagree.

[Dewairah]

Modern USA > Mongolian Empire every day of the week.

 

Thats subjective.

 

The mongolians used to slaughter their enemies and build pyramids with their skulls.

 

You cant do that in the Modern USA - so i want no part of it!

[yoniy0]

I'm not going to argue with you just for the sake of arguing

I'm glad to hear that, but you skirted the line with rudeness in that post. Don't go any farther.

And we will have no retaliations as well.

[Sharaman]

Every discussion of this subject has been distorted by reader's opinions of Seanchan versus Westland (vs AoL).

Rand-LTT will make choices based on his opinion and the expected utility of his decisions, which may be very different from the opinions of any reader.

Like any other work of historical fiction/ SFF, WoT works because the characters consider their environment normal and have sensibilities formed by their mileau.

 

In fact, we have many examples of moral relativism inside WoT - between Aiel, Seanchan and Westlanders, we have many characters shown as decent people, who reluctantly admit that somebody who lives by a very alien (to them) code can be a trustworthy and morally upright human being.

Perrin and Mat have already made accommodations with the Seanchan without changing their opinions of the evils of Seanchan society.

 

 

Why can't Rand-LTT, who has by now far more experience of wielding power and negotiating delicate political situations?

 

Rand's thoughts about the Seanchan and the strategic situation have been ventilated several times but not really post-VoG..

The distinction may be important because the post-VoG Rand-LTT is a much more sophisticated political entity since he can access and process LTT'sa sane memories from a lifetime of wielding political power, apart from possessing much more self-control, and having fewer anger issues.

 

We do know that Rand has always felt an alliance with the Seanchan is necessary.

He abhorred the enslaving (female) and killing (male) of channelers by the Seanchan.

He was willing to accommodate the Seanchan despite that, and prepared to negotiate around it, as per TGS.

He had no deal-breaking issues about the harshness of the Seanchan legal system, or about the non-channeler slavery in general. He may not like it but it won't stop him allying.

 

 

We've seen no reason to suspect that his opinion on the desirability of alliance has changed.

The fact that he confesses to Ituralde that he has failed at that task suggests that he would still like it to happen.

We also know that Rand believes he is going to die in the completion of his task (assuming he can) and that any alliances he makes may not last beyond his death, or be binding on the survivors of the last battle. That could make him more willing to do stuff like Kneel that he suspects is meaningless in the long run.

 

If he knows what Tuon wants, and he can negotiate an alliance on the basis of kneeling, he's probably capable of doing so.

But he may not explicitly know about the prophesy - he is still woefully short of intelligence on the Seanchan.

Also, he may, being a much more sophisticated entity, be cautious about what the implications of kneeling to the CT are.

 

My best guesses: The Prophesy is real. It's a Dark Prophesy that Ishamael seeded into the Seanchan Karatheon cycle. It will be fulfilled in some peculiar way that nobody foresees like other WoT prophesies. I may well be wrong on all counts. Or we may never really find out inside the narrative if it was a true prophesy.

[yoniy0]

stuff like Kneel that he suspects is meaningless in the long run.

Of course, this only holds if Aviendha keeps some things to herself (as she very well might, not many speak of what one sees in Rhuidean).

[huntmatt]

Tried to read whole post but got lazy, please let me know if this idea has been brought up, or if i'm just loco.

 

Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and bind the Nine Moons.

Crystal Throne=phycical reprsentaion of the creator (ala SG and DO). Rand/LTT can't win until he kneels to the creator, kind of like a balance to Moridin and DO.

1.This act will allow him to bind the nine moons some how.

2. Possibly give him safer access to True Power.

 

I know the prophecies about the Crystal Throne are considered unreliable, but thought i'd throw it out there.

[damandred]

I think Rand will kneel to the Empress, but I think the act will have unforeseen results for Tuon and it will be her that ends up doing what Rand wants.

[Mr Ares]

Tried to read whole post but got lazy, please let me know if this idea has been brought up, or if i'm just loco.

 

Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and bind the Nine Moons.

Crystal Throne=physical representation of the creator (ala SG and DO). Rand/LTT can't win until he kneels to the creator, kind of like a balance to Moridin and DO.

1.This act will allow him to bind the nine moons some how.

2. Possibly give him safer access to True Power.

 

I know the prophecies about the Crystal Throne are considered unreliable, but thought i'd throw it out there.

With regard to the bolded part, why do you think that? We have a Crystal Throne, and it's just a ter'angreal. So we need to either consider the existing throne a physical represenation, and if we do so, why? Or we invent a new throne to be said representation - again, why?

[FarShainMael]

Ishamael toyed with Hawking, his vision was far seeing, with his background in AoL, no doubt a genius and a supreme planner.

 

Ishamael had a hand in creating the Seanchan of the present and the kind of conflict/chaos they would bring would be glorious.

 

I have no doubt that Ishamael corrupted the Seanchan prophecies to fit to his liking.

 

Ishamael, toyed with Aes Sedai, he was really the man behind the Amyrlin, and could easily kill and replace an Amyrlin as he desired via his puppets (BA).

 

I wonder if Ishy was also responsible for this:

 

Women who could channel were dangerous animals rather than people. It had been they who broke the world. They must be controlled, or they would turn everyone into their property. That was what she had been taught, what had been taught in Seanchan for a thousand years. Strange that seemed not to have happened here. No. That was a dangerous, foolish line of thought.

 

The point being that it wasn't women who broke the world, or course.

[yoniy0]

For the actual Breaking, current day female channelers bear the exact same measure of responsibility as male ones - none at all. Women did use to bear the title of AS, AS were the ones to actually Break the world, and a woman did assist in the Drilling of the Bore, so I guess the blame could be spread evenly. The only difference is that if male channelers were left alone they would go mad, even still -- it's a difference of practicality, not fault.

[Son Of Feanor]

Per the TgS:

and LTT telling Rand that the female Aes Sedai refused to help LTT and the 100 companions, because their plan was to risky?

 

I pose this:

 

Didn't the Aes Sedai's refusal doom LTT to failure?

And perhaps make / cause the Breaking?

[yoniy0]

This is a little tricky. We know from RJ that had there been women at the Sealing, saidar would've been Tainted as well. However, it's certainly possible that had they been able to reach equal ground, they could've planned better and avoided the mistakes made by LTT. The fault here is, of course, shared between men and women; It takes two to tango, as they say.

[damandred]

Rand thinks the female AS, were not blameless as he muses in the WT, when confronting Egwene.

[Suttree]

Didn't the Aes Sedai's refusal doom LTT to failure?

And perhaps make / cause the Breaking?

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

LTT's plan was flawed as Rand himself admits in ToM. Per RJ it was a lucky thing the female AS weren't involved.

 

Rand thinks the female AS, were not blameless as he muses in the WT, when confronting Egwene.

 

On this topic Rand says...

 

ToM

"The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

[FarShainMael]

For the actual Breaking, current day female channelers bear the exact same measure of responsibility as male ones - none at all. Women did use to bear the title of AS, AS were the ones to actually Break the world, and a woman did assist in the Drilling of the Bore, so I guess the blame could be spread evenly. The only difference is that if male channelers were left alone they would go mad, even still -- it's a difference of practicality, not fault.

 

My point was that it was the male channellers who Broke the world, not the female; therefore the Seanchan have for a thousand years been taught something that is not true. Probably intentionally. This, to my mind, casts considerable doubt on all other aspects of their tradition, including their Prophecies.

[yoniy0]

Suttree, might I quote my post from above? There is reason to believe the women were also at fault, even if it's not as straight forward as their refusal to attend the Sealing.

 

My point was that it was the male channellers who Broke the world, not the female; therefore the Seanchan have for a thousand years been taught something that is not true. Probably intentionally. This, to my mind, casts considerable doubt on all other aspects of their tradition, including their Prophecies.

I got it. My point was that they could simply choose to ignore the distinction between male and female, and blame the AS as a whole (i.e., when Egenin says 'they' she means 'channelers' in general, not simply the women she mentioned earlier), and also that this approach has some merit. I hardly think they're unaware that the men did the actual Breaking.

[FarShainMael]

We know that the Seanchan execute any male channellers who appear, but I don't thnk we're told exactly why. Is it just the madness risk / certainty?

[Sharaman]

Tuon thinks in TGS about the male channelers as "Black Eyed Tempests" and Seanchan generals, who have been foolish enough to try and use them, and invariably ended up being killed when the poor chaps went postal.

So, yes, it seems that the risk of channeler madness is something that the Seanchan are very scared about.

[FarShainMael]

Tuon thinks in TGS about the male channelers as "Black Eyed Tempests" and Seanchan generals, who have been foolish enough to try and use them, and invariably ended up being killed when the poor chaps went postal.

So, yes, it seems that the risk of channeler madness is something that the Seanchan are very scared about.

 

not unreasonable..

 

It does look to me as though an anti-female channeller lie, making them the ones who did the actual Breaking, has been spread throughout Seanchan culture, leading the Seanchan ruling class to keep them under very firm control. They don't say anything about the male channellers doing any of the Breaking; they just execute them. This has Ishydin's handprints all over it. I'm certain the 'kneel before the Crystal Throne' 'prophecy' has a similar origin.

[aunt_pol]

I'm quite tired so hoping this emerges as some kind of coherent thought.

 

Some of you have touched on this but I want to have a run at it anyway. We seem to be the only ones who know/suspect what Ishy did to the Seanchan version of the Karaethon cycle. Nobody in the books does, except Ishy himself. Unless he decides to unburden himself at another fireside chat with Rand, it's going to stay as a one man secret.

So, as I see it, the issue really isn't one of veracity or authenticity. It's perception. Fortuona believes her version to be correct: anyone well read in Randland believes their version to be correct. [iIRC the Seanchan have a slight (perhaps useless) advantage in that they at least know there are conflicting versions.]

Rand - who knows what he thinks?

So you're looking at a woman who sincerely, in every bit of her, does not believe her equal exists among the living (allowing for Hawkwing). That's huge. I want to say megalomania but I know someone will explain why that's wrong...

Nothing in her life experience or training allows her in her new job to see anyone as equal, much less someone she should serve. I honestly don't think she can compute that kind of idea.

Rand, long term, is obv more important to the world, and I'd imagine he knows it, but he doesn't have that kind of rigid belief system about the world anymore - he knew he didn't need to bow to Egwene, but he equally was cognisant of not belittling her in any fashion. So I think it's entirely possible his newfound humanity etc would allow him to make concessions to Fortuona's belief.

Depends on how convincing Avi is when she has a complete s***fit at the very notion of him kneeling to Fortuona.

There are several caveats, some of them quite fun.

 

Mat laughs fondly at his wife's daft notion that Rand should kneel to her and with some good solid ta'veren kissing, shows he's her equal, never mind Rand.

Mat decides to tell her exactly what Hawkwing was like and gives a long tale about how her Empire has gone so spectacularly wrong.

Perrin rocks up with a few wolves and The Hammer and stands beside Mat and Rand and the unbearable ta'verenness and general coolness changes her mind.

Cadsuane comes out with a lovely nugget of info dug out of some tortured BA somewhere about Ishy's influence on Poppa Paendrag. Fortuona's head explodes.

Rand either A) agrees to kneel to the Crystal Throne if it can be brought over or B) explains to her how it was built and how old he is, yadda yadda.

Moiraine does something badass.

 

Sorry, rambled a bit there. I know none of those is really workable but they are fun.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I can see him kneeling to her as he won't care as long as they quit yapping at his heels, he ain't as unbending as he use to be. Heck maybe his new 'dudeness' powers will like totally over power her, nearly worked the last time when he was Rand 'you call that being hard? This is what being hard is!' al'Thor.

[Caveatar]

Just a thought. (looney thought)

 

Suffa opens a gateway to Seanchan.

They bring the Crystal Throne to a meeting.

Tuon has Suffa's controller and Suffa is in front of the throne.

Rand comes to the throne.

Suffa recognises Rand and reacts to his presence.

Tuon sends her to the ground on her face in agony.

Rand kneeling by Suffa/Elaida, Blasts the a'dam and releases her

Then helping her to her feet says to Tuon"

"Was that sufficient kneeling for you Empress?"

 

(Whereupon Elaida released blasts Tuon, throne and bodyguard

ten thousand miles all the way across Texas, I mean the Two Rivers.

 

Can't happen but I wish somebody would do it.)

[aunt_pol]

Hey Owayn, long time no see!

 

I think we've all seen Rand as the centre of the series the whole time, so long now, that it generally seems inconceivable he should kneel to anyone. IIRC the last time he knelt was to Siuan, in Fal Dara many moons ago? And that was out of what Lan taught him so a courtesy really. I'd imagine we're missing something fundamental here. I mean, Mat's ashandarei wasn't exactly hidden and we missed its significance fairly well!

 

Maybe he agrees to kneel in exchange for the Seanchan troops - sul'dam, damane, raken, the lot - being first over the hill at some sizeable battle. Empire pretty much wiped out = Aviendha satisfied.

 

One can dream...

 

ETA Ooh ooh ooh I got something - Madame Omens and Superstitions sees all sorts of birds doing weird things just as she orders him to kneel while Elaida/Suffa does some unmistakably detailed, dramatic and ominous Foretelling. Only way I could see her easily changing her mind anyway. Maybe.

[Manscher]

I'd be seriously disappointed if Tuon and rest of the Seanchan gets away with their current believes and acts. It's been pretty comon throughout the entire series to kick arrogant people off their high horses, prime example being the Aes Sedai. Rand kneeling in front of Tuon would just strengthen The Seanchan belief that they are superior to rest of Randland, and that the Empress knows no equal.

 

Rand will show her the appropriate respect she deserves as a potential ally, he wont go down on his knees to him, as it would make him less than her.