Rand Kneeling to Empress (speculation)

[Winespring Patron]

Seanchan prophecy states that the Dragon Reborn will kneel (submit) to the Crystal Throne but the Karaethon Cycle states that Rand will bind the Court of Nine Moons to him (paraphrase)...

 

How will these conflicting prophecies be reconciled in aMoL???

 

My theory is that the Seanchan will capture Egwene (again) and that Rand will travel to the Crystal Throne and parley with Fortuona. Rand will agree to a token submission, but will not surrender any real power or allow the Seanchan Empress to be the Supreme Commander of the Forces of the Light. Rand's Ta'veren wasn't strong enough to overcome Tuon's stubbornness at the first meeting; perhaps if Mat accompanied him and used his Prince of Ravens influence plus Ta'veren luck maybe Fortuona would agree to a "Cease Fire" Treaty???

[Suttree]

Think it is pretty well excepted that Ishy messed around with the Seanchan version....

 

“The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought.”

 

Ishy speaks of sealing a "doom yet to come" and Luthair's version has the DR kneeling which was not in the originals.

[Stitch]

The alterations are indeed new, but not necessarily false prophecy (they could have had some other foreteller say it) personally I think that if it IS true, then it probably relates to the fact that when rand went on his 'ima kill everyone' trip and fell over in the street... I think that was probably the closest we are going to see to that prophecy coming true (if he had not had that moment where he regained his senses then the prophecy foretells a rather bleak future - something I think most people would agree, would have been likely had Rand not had some sort of enlightenment)

[Winespring Patron]

 

Luthair's version has the DR kneeling which was not in the originals.

 

What about Avi's passage thru the Way Forward Ter'angreal in ToM; in Oncala's POV, it was stated that Rand did actually bow to the Seanchan Empress?

[Majsju]

Luthair's version has the DR kneeling which was not in the originals.

 

What about Avi's passage thru the Way Forward Ter'angreal in ToM; in Oncala's POV, it was stated that Rand did actually bow to the Seanchan Empress?

 

Part of why the future she saw was so screwed up seems to be because Rand knelt, so that should be one of the things she will tell him to not do.

[Goldstar]

Just wondering here, but as the Prince of Ravens, doesn't Mat hold some claim to the Crystal Throne?

[Durinax]

Just wondering here, but as the Prince of Ravens, doesn't Mat hold some claim to the Crystal Throne?

I imagine as much claim as the daughter of the nine moons, as head consort he would have most claim if fortuona dropped dead, even if she had 100 kids

[Suttree]

Just wondering here, but as the Prince of Ravens, doesn't Mat hold some claim to the Crystal Throne?

I imagine as much claim as the daughter of the nine moons, as head consort he would have most claim if fortuona dropped dead, even if she had 100 kids

 

Not sure about Mat but the BWB says:

 

Succession to the throne is not controlled by sex or passed on to the firstborn child as in many other kingdoms; the Empress will choose her successor from among the immediate royal family. As may be imagined, the family members vie furiously for the Empress's favor. Plotting and intrigue between the contenders are not only expected, they are actually encouraged. The Seanchan believe that such behavior, when successful, shows strength and leadership—at least of the type the Seanchan value. In a sense, all the power struggles between rival countries and rulers in the pre-Paendrag Seanchan now occur between rivals of the ruling class.

[randsc]

Suttree has this right.

 

The Seanchan prophecy is corrupt. If it is fulfilled, doom will result.

 

I really don't know why people construct elaborate theories about Rand kneeling-only-not-really-because-he-just-dropped-his-phone. Or some such.

[LazyMonk]

A temporary case-fire would be a poor think indeed.

So far the Seanchan are succeeding in keeping the lid on the truth about the difference between Suldam and Damane. I'm still waiting for this to become general knowledge and see how the Seanchan deal with an Empress who is potentially a Damane.

 

Also, I'm waiting for the moment when the Aiel get it through their thick skulls that Aiel captured by Seanchan aren't coming back after a year and a day... and captured wise-ones wont be the same at the completion of the year - were they to be released.

[Luckers]

From my FAQ on the subject [a full list of my FAQ's can be found in my sig.

 

Seanchan Prophecy; Fact or Fiction

 

Essanik Cycle vs. Karetheon Cycle

 

Firstly, just a quick disambiguation. I've seen people stating that the Seanchan Prophecies are the Essanik Cycle, whilst the Westland Prophecies are the Karetheon Cycle. This is not so--the Seanchan have the Karetheon Cycle also, they just have an additional set of prophecies about the Dragon which they've put together in the Essanik Cycle. We have no indications that the Essanik Cycle has been played with at all--indeed the only prophecy from it that we've seen turned out to be true.

 

So, for clarity, the Karetheon Cycle seems to be a compilation of foretelling made during the first forty or so years of the Breaking whilst communication held up enough for them to spread around. The Essanik Cycle seems to be a group of Foretellings made by Aes Sedai (and possibly damane as well) on the Seanchan continent. Note: Elaida states that there were also foretellings about the Last Battle made by Tower trained Aes Sedai in the Westlands--these have seemingly not be made into an official Cycle, but rather kept hidden in the Tower Library.

 

The Problem With the Karetheon Cycle

 

In tPoD we learn that the copy of the Karetheon Cycle Luthair brought with him to Seanchan contained a mention in it that it not to be found in any other version of the Prophecies either in the Westlands or in Seanchan.

 

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too, not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

 

[tPoD; 24, A Time For Iron]

 

This is obviously paraphrased--later we get a different phrasing of that prophecy from Tuon.

 

"I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.

 

[WH; 14, What a Veil Hides]

 

I trust Tuon's phrasing more than Miraj--her knowledge seems more specific than his. But kneel or serve both would probably confuse Moiraine.

 

“Neither the first nor the last,” Moiraine said. “Callandor will be but one fulfilment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he ‘shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf? What does it meant that he ‘shall bind the nine moons to serve him’? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle.

 

[tDR; 6, The Hunt Begins]

 

So which is it? Will he serve the Crystal Throne, or will it serve him? I've seen people suggest that the answer is both. The favourite method for this seems to be the Domination Band--Tuon binds Rand, then as the Band's control wavers he comes to bind her. Other's consist of Rand physically dropping to a knee before balefiring the hell out of her, and everything in between.

 

However there are still problems here...

 

The Origins of This Prophecy

 

Ok, so according to Miraj Luthair brought his copy of the Karetheon Cycle from the Westlands, yet the ones in the Westlands contain no mention of it. Why? Would someone have scoured all reference from every copy of the Prophecies in the Westlands? Every Commentary? Even if such a thing were possible, which I doubt, why would anyone do that? No one in the Westlands knew what the Crystal Throne was, or would have a reason to destroy references to the Dragon submitting to it--indeed if the Unstained Tower Breaking and Bending Knee, or the fall of Tear survived, how did this not?

 

No it seems unlikely to point of impossibility that Luthair obtained his version of the Prophecies in the Westlands. Furthermore it seems similarly unlikely (impossible) that the one singular pure version of the Prophecies existed to be found by the man who would in fact come to sit the Crystal Throne in contradiction to all other versions of the Prophecies across the world. So whilst there are ways both prophecies might be fulfilled it seems essentially certain that the Seanchan entry of the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a fabrication. But if so, by whom?

 

Who Played With Prophecy?

 

The Importance of a Chair

 

The first candidate is Luthair (or one of his descendents--just because it is claimed he had it with him when he arrived doesn't mean he did). It makes sense for the people who sat the Crystal Throne to want to glorify it, and this fits very neatly with Seanchan concepts of the relative significance of the Emperor/Empress--they can have no equal, not even the Dragon.

 

Still, it's somewhat peculiar that a thousand years ago they were making such elaborate efforts to put the Dragon in his place. It's possible that have forming the Court and naming themselves the Nine Moons they found the reference to the Nine Moons being bound and freaked, but even so this seems a little premature.

 

The Issue of a Doom

 

The second candidate is Ishamael. He tells Rand that in sending Luthair to Seanchan he sealed two dooms. One then (the death of Hawkwing's Empire) and one now (presumably the Seanchan Return, and the conflict it would cause).

 

However this is odd. The Seanchan are not Darkfriends, and their war of unification isn't so different to Rand's--focussed in large part on fighting the Shadow. So how could Ishamael be so certain as to claim their insured a certain doom--the answer would be the Prophecy. In altering it he would have specifically targeted the Seanchan Empire at the Dragon, a confrontation which well could spell doom for the Light.

 

Conclusions

 

At this stage it seems highly unlikely that the Seanchan clause of Rand kneeling is true. The origins of this cause are simply to suspect to be trusted. If this is a fabrication the most likely fabricator is Ishamael, though it could also simply be the Imperial Family themselves. It should be noted that this is a manipulation of the Karetheon Cycle and that the Essanik Cycle does not seem to be a fabrication, and there are no indications of foul play related to it.

[Arkane101]

At this stage it seems highly unlikely that the Seanchan clause of Rand kneeling is true. The origins of this cause are simply to suspect to be trusted. If this is a fabrication the most likely fabricator is Ishamael, though it could also simply be the Imperial Family themselves. It should be noted that this is a manipulation of the Karetheon Cycle and that the Essanik Cycle does not seem to be a fabrication, and there are no indications of foul play related to it.

Thats pretty much it, nothing more to add. I've always considered Ishamael to be the one who fabricated the Seanchan version of the Karetheon Cycle, or at least since my first reread, so I agree with all this, at any rate, until it all happens in aMoL we can't be 100% sure. So as they always say RAFO! lol

[XXX]

I hope he does and gives "the flame of Tar Valon, watcher of seals(whose location she is not even aware of)" to the Seachan as a damane to seal the bargain. Perhaps throw in Gawyn as a servant.

[Leyrann]

I hope he does and gives "the flame of Tar Valon, watcher of seals(whose location she is not even aware of)" to the Seachan as a damane to seal the bargain. Perhaps throw in Gawyn as a servant.

 

Please don't make this an Egwene hate thread.

[randsc]

One of the things that makes any sort of "serving" or "bowing" unlikely, in my view, is that Egwene would never go for it. Could Rand "kneel", even figuratively, or "serve" even nominally, the Seanchan empress while keeping the Aes Sedai on his side? Or even the Aiel Wise Ones? I can't see it.

 

People say that Avi's vision means that the Aiel need to become Tinkers, or some such.

 

I say it means that Rand needs to stand with the Aiel, not bow to the Seanchan.

[Luckers]

Yeah yeah, this went before I put up the new policy of no Egwene/Aes Sedai threadjacking, so lets all just ignore it and stay on topic.

[Winespring Patron]

Yeah yeah, this went before I put up the new policy of no Egwene/Aes Sedai threadjacking, so lets all just ignore it and stay on topic.

 

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree, SoT!

 

It looks like a proverbial toss-up that will only be answered in aMoL. If you accept the "corrupted form" reference at face value then you believe that Rand will not kneel. I, on the other hand allow for the possibility of a Seanchan or Luthair era foretelling that supplements the well known prophecies. The theme is repeated and given significant weight by the author in the Seanchan POV's. Also, whether Avi's Ter'angreal visions are inevitable fate or a possible future it is clear that Rand will reach some kind of "accommodation" with the Seanchan. I believe Rand 2.0 is more flexible then before he meditated on the summit of Dragonmount and that he might forgo his pride and make a nominal gesture if it helped him accomplish his longterm goal.

[AquilaInfernus]

Rand needs only to make a single concession to the Seanchan to fulfil 'kneeling' to the Crystal Throne, or specifically Fortuona. Giving her a cup of tea (or kaf) after she asks for it might count. His blind beggary prophecy involved wandering the streets of Ebou Dar with a rag of a cloak. I agree with Luckers, but I can definitely see him conceding I don't know, Tarabon, Amador and Altara in exchange for freeing Damane if they turn up to FoM.

 

I was going to work Avi into this but the thoughts slipped away...

[Luckers]

I'm thinking the damane is one of those things that wont be resolved in the series, but there will be gestures towards that happening at the end.

[bobarose]

Rand will kneel before the seachen because they will be planking

before him.

[Orderofolde]

From my FAQ on the subject [a full list of my FAQ's can be found in my sig.

 

Seanchan Prophecy; Fact or Fiction

 

Essanik Cycle vs. Karetheon Cycle

 

Firstly, just a quick disambiguation. I've seen people stating that the Seanchan Prophecies are the Essanik Cycle, whilst the Westland Prophecies are the Karetheon Cycle. This is not so--the Seanchan have the Karetheon Cycle also, they just have an additional set of prophecies about the Dragon which they've put together in the Essanik Cycle. We have no indications that the Essanik Cycle has been played with at all--indeed the only prophecy from it that we've seen turned out to be true.

 

So, for clarity, the Karetheon Cycle seems to be a compilation of foretelling made during the first forty or so years of the Breaking whilst communication held up enough for them to spread around. The Essanik Cycle seems to be a group of Foretellings made by Aes Sedai (and possibly damane as well) on the Seanchan continent. Note: Elaida states that there were also foretellings about the Last Battle made by Tower trained Aes Sedai in the Westlands--these have seemingly not be made into an official Cycle, but rather kept hidden in the Tower Library.

 

The Problem With the Karetheon Cycle

 

In tPoD we learn that the copy of the Karetheon Cycle Luthair brought with him to Seanchan contained a mention in it that it not to be found in any other version of the Prophecies either in the Westlands or in Seanchan.

 

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too, not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

 

[tPoD; 24, A Time For Iron]

 

This is obviously paraphrased--later we get a different phrasing of that prophecy from Tuon.

 

"I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.

 

[WH; 14, What a Veil Hides]

 

I trust Tuon's phrasing more than Miraj--her knowledge seems more specific than his. But kneel or serve both would probably confuse Moiraine.

 

“Neither the first nor the last,” Moiraine said. “Callandor will be but one fulfilment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he ‘shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf? What does it meant that he ‘shall bind the nine moons to serve him’? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle.

 

[tDR; 6, The Hunt Begins]

 

So which is it? Will he serve the Crystal Throne, or will it serve him? I've seen people suggest that the answer is both. The favourite method for this seems to be the Domination Band--Tuon binds Rand, then as the Band's control wavers he comes to bind her. Other's consist of Rand physically dropping to a knee before balefiring the hell out of her, and everything in between.

 

However there are still problems here...

 

The Origins of This Prophecy

 

Ok, so according to Miraj Luthair brought his copy of the Karetheon Cycle from the Westlands, yet the ones in the Westlands contain no mention of it. Why? Would someone have scoured all reference from every copy of the Prophecies in the Westlands? Every Commentary? Even if such a thing were possible, which I doubt, why would anyone do that? No one in the Westlands knew what the Crystal Throne was, or would have a reason to destroy references to the Dragon submitting to it--indeed if the Unstained Tower Breaking and Bending Knee, or the fall of Tear survived, how did this not?

 

No it seems unlikely to point of impossibility that Luthair obtained his version of the Prophecies in the Westlands. Furthermore it seems similarly unlikely (impossible) that the one singular pure version of the Prophecies existed to be found by the man who would in fact come to sit the Crystal Throne in contradiction to all other versions of the Prophecies across the world. So whilst there are ways both prophecies might be fulfilled it seems essentially certain that the Seanchan entry of the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne is a fabrication. But if so, by whom?

 

Who Played With Prophecy?

 

The Importance of a Chair

 

The first candidate is Luthair (or one of his descendents--just because it is claimed he had it with him when he arrived doesn't mean he did). It makes sense for the people who sat the Crystal Throne to want to glorify it, and this fits very neatly with Seanchan concepts of the relative significance of the Emperor/Empress--they can have no equal, not even the Dragon.

 

Still, it's somewhat peculiar that a thousand years ago they were making such elaborate efforts to put the Dragon in his place. It's possible that have forming the Court and naming themselves the Nine Moons they found the reference to the Nine Moons being bound and freaked, but even so this seems a little premature.

 

The Issue of a Doom

 

The second candidate is Ishamael. He tells Rand that in sending Luthair to Seanchan he sealed two dooms. One then (the death of Hawkwing's Empire) and one now (presumably the Seanchan Return, and the conflict it would cause).

 

However this is odd. The Seanchan are not Darkfriends, and their war of unification isn't so different to Rand's--focussed in large part on fighting the Shadow. So how could Ishamael be so certain as to claim their insured a certain doom--the answer would be the Prophecy. In altering it he would have specifically targeted the Seanchan Empire at the Dragon, a confrontation which well could spell doom for the Light.

 

Conclusions

 

At this stage it seems highly unlikely that the Seanchan clause of Rand kneeling is true. The origins of this cause are simply to suspect to be trusted. If this is a fabrication the most likely fabricator is Ishamael, though it could also simply be the Imperial Family themselves. It should be noted that this is a manipulation of the Karetheon Cycle and that the Essanik Cycle does not seem to be a fabrication, and there are no indications of foul play related to it.

 

The problem is, with Earth History, that every town or village clings to and touts its own version of prophecy. We tend to associate ourselves with what is popular and powerful and sought by all to better the opinion of others about ourselves. In the middle ages people could be found peddling bones or other relics belonging to this Saint or that. We as humans tend to embellish and fancify. I'm sure many of you went through school and did the game in class where the teacher whispered something to one person who passed it to another and so on down the line. It wasn't even close to what had originally been said, much like oral history which in this case bold as can be, The Wheel of Time Turns and Ages come and pass...legends become myth and all that sort. Add in the prophecies where the Aes Sedai and life-long scholars studying the prophecies cant make heads or tails of most of them and what they think they mean is stood on its head? You will be hard pressed to find similar prophecies especially from such vastly different cultures. However, as we have seen, the same warning comes to the main characters in different forms, presented in the Wolf Dream as one allegory, in Egwene's as another, and then the fortellings speak of something different, but all warn or show what is to come. With Rand, however, there is the unknown as he is forcing the fulfillment of prophecy. "I must be the Dragon Reborn, so I'm going to draw Callandor to prove it." We ourselves do not understand prophecy. It is vague to which it can be any number of things, both what it directly appears to mean as well as the face-slap followed by a groan when we see it fulfilled in a most unexpected way, which I feel I can safely say is RJ's writing all the way.

[Terez]

Luthair's version has the DR kneeling which was not in the originals.

 

What about Avi's passage thru the Way Forward Ter'angreal in ToM; in Oncala's POV, it was stated that Rand did actually bow to the Seanchan Empress?

 

Part of why the future she saw was so screwed up seems to be because Rand knelt, so that should be one of the things she will tell him to not do.

That doesn't really seem to have been the problem at all. The problem was that he didn't get Tuon to change her mind about the damane, and that he exempted the Aiel from the Peace. I also addressed this in the Seanchan Prophecy page in my FAQ (linked in sig), and on another page which I haven't published (need to get around to that - it's dealing with the Rhuidean ter'angreal, and it's got chronological summaries of both Rand's and Aviendha's visions).

[LemonPastie]

My interpretation of the kneeling prophesy is something I haven't seen anyone else mention yet. We assume that because Tuon says "the prophesies are quite clear" it means she has interpreted them correctly. I'm more inclined to think the verse may go along the lines of

 

"He who gambles with the fate of the world,

Shall kneel before the Throne of Moons,

and the Ravens shall send him to battle

to triumph over the forces of the lord of the grave"

 

Now this is entirely fictional, but what if the stanza that tuon is referring to, actually references Mat and him being bound to the crystal throne? It may be that very few people consider there to be more than one person talked about in the prophesies.

 

This also leads to the fact that the changes are still relevant prophesy, but we know that ishmael has had access to such people in order to write the dark prophesy, and so he may have used them or some others to modify the Seanchan version

[Entreri]

Ishamael toyed with Hawking, his vision was far seeing, with his background in AoL, no doubt a genius and a supreme planner.

 

Ishamael had a hand in creating the Seanchan of the present and the kind of conflict/chaos they would bring would be glorious.

 

I have no doubt that Ishamael corrupted the Seanchan prophecies to fit to his liking.

 

Ishamael, toyed with Aes Sedai, he was really the man behind the Amyrlin, and could easily kill and replace an Amyrlin as he desired via his puppets (BA).

 

 

Without Ishamael's actions in the post Breaking, 3000 years, this Age may have come close to AoL, which would have increased the likelihood of Shadow's defeat immensily. Instead you have a barbaric, primitive people, very limited population. Instead of starships or even aircraft carrier battle groups, you have primitive tug boats.

 

One only needs to see Aviehnda's vision of the future or modern society to see how fast progress can be made (eg. quantum computers, hypersonic fighters, AI, nucler fusion reactors, hand held energy weapons etc are only a few decades off...even starships only a few centuries away).

[Suttree]

Ishamael, toyed with Aes Sedai, he was really the man behind the Amyrlin, and could easily kill and replace an Amyrlin as he desired via his puppets (BA).

 

Interesting concept, but I've never really thought he had a foothold back then in the WT. Do you have any proof of this to back it up?