Verin's Gamble

[jsbrads]

verin slipped the poison into her own tea

[FarShainMael]

So she made Egwene think.

[randsc]

I do want to know who Laras is.

 

And I agree with Kael (see, it happens!) that all Verin needed to do was a bit of self-delusion to get around the oath.

[Charlz Guybon]

People forget that Verin doesn't really know Mat. She spent a ton of time with Rand and Perrin, but Mat was sick from the Dagger when she was with him and that was all the way back during TGH-TDR.

[Dreggs Morlock]

I don't really take Verin's familiarity with Matt into account; the more proof we have that Verin didn't know Matt, the more it seems likely that she would have warned other people of the incoming attack on Caemlyn. She is nothing if not thorough; we see the amount of planning she undertook just in case she did die. A lot of sealed letter went out to people, and yet we see only ONE warning that one of the largest cities on the ally side is to be bushwhacked... it doesn't make sense. I just can't believe she would risk thousands of lives on Matt's curiosity.

 

Soooo... I am starting to believe that Verin told other people, and we just haven't seen the results of those letters. If she didn't, I believe that is a flaw in the storyline.

[Kahsm]

I don't really take Verin's familiarity with Matt into account; the more proof we have that Verin didn't know Matt, the more it seems likely that she would have warned other people of the incoming attack on Caemlyn. She is nothing if not thorough; we see the amount of planning she undertook just in case she did die. A lot of sealed letter went out to people, and yet we see only ONE warning that one of the largest cities on the ally side is to be bushwhacked... it doesn't make sense. I just can't believe she would risk thousands of lives on Matt's curiosity.

 

Soooo... I am starting to believe that Verin told other people, and we just haven't seen the results of those letters. If she didn't, I believe that is a flaw in the storyline.

 

It's possible that Verin has other things for those other people to do. I doubt this is the only move the shadow will make. And as noted, Verin is thorough, but the other stones pieces are needed elsewhere on the board.

 

Mat was just what was left to deal with the attack?

[Dreggs Morlock]

I don't really take Verin's familiarity with Matt into account; the more proof we have that Verin didn't know Matt, the more it seems likely that she would have warned other people of the incoming attack on Caemlyn. She is nothing if not thorough; we see the amount of planning she undertook just in case she did die. A lot of sealed letter went out to people, and yet we see only ONE warning that one of the largest cities on the ally side is to be bushwhacked... it doesn't make sense. I just can't believe she would risk thousands of lives on Matt's curiosity.

 

Soooo... I am starting to believe that Verin told other people, and we just haven't seen the results of those letters. If she didn't, I believe that is a flaw in the storyline.

 

It's possible that Verin has other things for those other people to do. I doubt this is the only move the shadow will make. And as noted, Verin is thorough, but the other stones pieces are needed elsewhere on the board.

 

Mat was just what was left to deal with the attack?

I'm hoping there were others told off-screen.

[FarShainMael]

At the very least, Verin should have warned Elayne somehow, or told Egwene to warn her.

[Kahsm]

At the very least, Verin should have warned Elayne somehow, or told Egwene to warn her.

 

Elayne is Aes Sedai, maybe she didn't want to distract her from "Tower Business".

 

Also, in order for her to get around the oaths she would have to know for certain (in her own opinion) that the person wouldn't read it right away. Maybe she thought Elayne would peak, and if she thought that, she wouldn't be able to deliver anything to her. She would have to be certain that Mat would not look, which is pretty easy given Mat doesn't want anything to do with Aes Sedai ;)

 

And Egwene had other things to deal with, I mean you can say "she just has to slip it in" but I mean they had an hour to convey a lot of stuff. Best let Mat do his job, and Egwene do hers.

[GYLD]

Did Verin even know at the time Elayne had taken the throne? If I recall, Verin left with Cadsuane to Far Madding shortly after Elayne returned to Caemlyn. After Far Madding and the Cleansing she was in hiding with Rand until she ran off on her own. From there things are less than clear, but we know she was stuck in Truistair for a time. Mat had not known at the time that Elayne was queen and it's possible neither did Verin.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Again... Verin knew that thousands would die if trollocs were to attack Caemlyn; the lower city was extremely vulnerable. I think THAT would make it worth mentioning to Egwene... maybe noted in her little book? C'mon, she had to have told SOMEONE besides Matt. We just haven't seen the people who she told yet.... hopefully.

[Winespring Patron]

Again... Verin knew that thousands would die if trollocs were to attack Caemlyn; the lower city was extremely vulnerable. I think THAT would make it worth mentioning to Egwene... maybe noted in her little book? C'mon, she had to have told SOMEONE besides Matt. We just haven't seen the people who she told yet.... hopefully.

 

I agree, it would be stupid if Verin didn't plan for two real possibilities happening simultaneously: 1) her non-return to Caemlyn because of death or detention and 2) Mat's distrust / stubbornness negating his curiosity and not opening the letter. Having Mat wait with his Army near Caemlyn is a very poor compromise solution even as default alternative. Verin may not be a Master strategist but surely she can grasp that no general wants to react and engage in urban combat with Shadowspawn with no intelligence or chance to coordinate with the local military (Queen's Guard).

[Luckers]

It's possible that giving the note to Elayne directly just went the hairsbreadth too far into betraying her Oath./..

[dwn]

It's also worth noting that Verin didn't set out to find Mat--indeed, she had no way of knowing where he was. It could be she was on her way to warn Elayne, was unable to reach her due to the ta'veren entanglement, and figured that the Pattern wanted her to give the warning to Mat instead. Mat who, conveniently, was on his way to Caemlyn with an army.

 

-- dwn

[Charlz Guybon]

Again... Verin knew that thousands would die if trollocs were to attack Caemlyn; the lower city was extremely vulnerable. I think THAT would make it worth mentioning to Egwene... maybe noted in her little book? C'mon, she had to have told SOMEONE besides Matt. We just haven't seen the people who she told yet.... hopefully.

Wasn't her entire book in code. It would take quite a long time to translate hundreds of pages, and she must have other books in her room filled with plots that also need to be cracked.

[ZeshanHamdani]

remember, that even though verin handed egwene the books with the black ajah names that some still got away. this does help the theory that verin was really black.

but, also remember that mesaana was still in the tower and could have masked her ability at some point and done the illusion technique to deliver the soup and see what was going on.

 

i feel the towers in eqwenes dream are the forsaken. which one rises above all is the question. is it moridin? or will it be cyndane or moghedien? can it be graendel who failed horribly and almost died?

 

as far as mats letter is concerned, i feel she knew he would not open it, simply on the fact that it doesnt say anything for him to do. what she didn't and couldn't possibly account for was him going after moiraine.

[FarShainMael]

In fairness to Verin, she had no idea about most of that. Her plan still makes little sense though. The least she could do was hedge her bets by telling Egwene too and mentioning the invasion in the letter to Rand.

 

Yes. Why didn't Verin warn Rand somehow - anyhow - that his wards were failing?

[yoniy0]

Perhaps she just did the same mistake Moiraine did with Perrin. Believing you can anticipate the behavior of others can sometime bite you (or others, in Verin's case) in the ass.

[Dreggs Morlock]

You know, the one thing we haven't been told is how and when she learned of the trolloc army in Caemlyn. This could actually answer all our questions, though this is me trying to be hopeful. IF she only discovered the plans of the Black Ajah right before she met with Matt, it would certainly exclude warnings to anyone but Matt and Egwene (though it does NOT explain why she would not have doubled down on warnings and included Egwene).

 

Do we have any clues as to where she might have been to find out about this plan? If she found out in Tear... I don't know, it seems to me that other will have been warned besides Matt. And I really don't think Verin was "really black", and this was a double DOUBLE agent sort of thing... think of how many channelers the shadow lost because of Verin. The net gain is completely offset by the huge losses from that alone.

[FarShainMael]

If she wanted to damage the Light's chances by keeping Mat away from where he should be, it would be worth it to the Shadow to sacrifice the Black Ajah. Especially as that kept Egwene occupied as well.. Yes, I know this is all a bit of a stretch, but still.

 

I will admit, though, that there is one thing that makes 'Black Verin' seem unlikely: it would mean more intelligent cunning than we have so far seen from the forces of the Shadow..

[jwood01]

Sorry, but looking at it from Verin's point of view, the whole idea that this letter was sufficient to forestall the trolloc invasion makes no sense. She seemed to be soooo thorough, except in this one instance.

 

More and more, I would love to hear what BS has to say about this topic.

 

Your wish has been answered. See BS's reddit discussion from yesterday: Terez has conveniently listed all of the WoT related QnA's on his blog. BS's answer was along the lines of

 

1) Verin does not know Mat as well as she thought

 

2) She included "redundancies" i.e., alternative plans. i take this to mean that, as you hypothesized Dreggs, other people got letters as well. Alanna is a likely possibility.

[TheAngryDruid]

Egwene saw towers falling in a dream in ToM, then one get torn down, only to spring up again, stronger than ever. I thought, after the first re-read, the towers were the nations in Randland, and the tower half destroyed talked of Andor and the Trolloc attacks in the city. This seemed like the best thread to bring that up, since it didn't deserve its own thread, though having said that, it probably has one I didn't see!!

 

The ToM in Egwene's dream are the Fosaken. The one that falls down and springs up again taller than ever represents Ishy/Moridin. The ones that have fallen to that point (Aginor/Osan'gar, Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmodean, Sammael, and Semirhage). The six that remain, (at the time of Elayne's dream represent: Moridin, Cyndane/Lanfer, Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana, and Aran'gar). Though actually, I think the timeline may be off, as only five should remain at that point, as Aran'gar is toast, because Rand is standing there all Buddha Rand the next day, but that is another thread.

[mackoY-kun]

Egwene saw towers falling in a dream in ToM, then one get torn down, only to spring up again, stronger than ever. I thought, after the first re-read, the towers were the nations in Randland, and the tower half destroyed talked of Andor and the Trolloc attacks in the city. This seemed like the best thread to bring that up, since it didn't deserve its own thread, though having said that, it probably has one I didn't see!!

 

The ToM in Egwene's dream are the Fosaken. The one that falls down and springs up again taller than ever represents Ishy/Moridin. The ones that have fallen to that point (Aginor/Osan'gar, Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmodean, Sammael, and Semirhage). The six that remain, (at the time of Elayne's dream represent: Moridin, Cyndane/Lanfer, Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana, and Aran'gar). Though actually, I think the timeline may be off, as only five should remain at that point, as Aran'gar is toast, because Rand is standing there all Buddha Rand the next day, but that is another thread.

 

It's actually; 1.Moridin, 2.Cyndane, 3.Moghedien, 4.Graendal, 5.Demandred and 6.Mesaanna. So the 6 count is correct.

 

@ topic: Verin , when uncovering the Black Ajah had a lot of time to do it, so she had time to be "thorough". While in the recent events, she was sort of time constrained, she didn't have time to be "thorough", remember Mat's taveren pull on her so she couldn't do the things she wanted to? she was forced to wait for Mat to Find her.

[Lisa Campbell]

AFAIK Verin did send a letter to Rand via an AS. Help me out on who gave him a letter sealed with red wax when he visited the WT after Apples First in TofM?

[Louise]

It was Tiana Noselle, of the Grey Ajah. She was the Mistress of Novices in Salidar.

 

Though I don't know if the letter can actually be from Verin.

Verin died in tGS, before the Tower was reunited. I suppose it could be possible that she made a visit to the rebels before going to see Egwene, IMO it seems unlikely. Why give it to Tiana?