Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Elan Tedronai]

Egwene will still be around once you close that final book. Rand wont be. He will be gone for good. Riding into the sunset with min. No armies, no thrones, no power nothing.

 

egwene will still have her power. No amount of anti egwene threads will change this fact

[AshaShan]

Thanks for providing the quote David. Fifty thousand is less than I though but still 10 to 1 odds. I'd still put it in the win column.

 

@ Elan. You are almost certainly correct. Rand will likely walk away from the power he could wield post-Tarmon Gaidon and Egwene wont. I fail to see how that factors in to how comparable their abilities and worth are however. Are you trying to say that if Rand decided to stick around and name himself High King Egwene could defeat him? In a world that he would have just saved from the Dark One, I... disagree.

[Elan Tedronai]

Thanks for providing the quote David. Fifty thousand is less than I though but still 10 to 1 odds. I'd still put it in the win column.

 

@ Elan. You are almost certainly correct. Rand will likely walk away from the power he could wield post-Tarmon Gaidon and Egwene wont. I fail to see how that factors in to how comparable their abilities and worth are however. Are you trying to say that if Rand decided to stick around and name himself High King Egwene could defeat him? In a world that he would have just saved from the Dark One, I... disagree.

 

 

i am just mocking the anti egwene haters. rand will be gone and finished.

 

Egwene will be the most powerful ruler if you take away logain. What are these guys going to do then? another amyriln vs dragon equal thread? LMAO

[Suttree]

I wasn't aware of the actual timeline and just took everyone at their word that it was a year later. At only one month that really puts the whole campaign in a diff light...not sure if Rand can truly be said to have stopped the Seanchan advance if that is the case.

 

He didn't stop their advance.

 

He did destroy an army of maybe a hundred thousand of the enemies highly trained troops while only loosing a couple of thousand men of dubious loyalty. I put that one in the win column.

 

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

[AshaShan]

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

[XXX]

Thanks for providing the quote David. Fifty thousand is less than I though but still 10 to 1 odds. I'd still put it in the win column.

 

@ Elan. You are almost certainly correct. Rand will likely walk away from the power he could wield post-Tarmon Gaidon and Egwene wont. I fail to see how that factors in to how comparable their abilities and worth are however. Are you trying to say that if Rand decided to stick around and name himself High King Egwene could defeat him? In a world that he would have just saved from the Dark One, I... disagree.

 

 

i am just mocking the anti egwene haters. rand will be gone and finished.

 

Egwene will be the most powerful ruler if you take away logain. What are these guys going to do then? another amyriln vs dragon equal thread? LMAO

 

 

But there will be no taking away Logain...as it is Egwene(assuming she survives the last battle) will never be as powerful an Amyrlin as Siuan was. Simply put she will share her power with Logain compared to an absolute rule by Siuan. And there will be large parts of Rand Land who will not acknowledge her authority..Seachan,Aiel etc none of whom were in the wetlands when Siuan was ruling.

 

However compared to Rand in OP, influence and power she remains an insect.

[Gordar]

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

I have to agree with the people that say that Rand hasn't shown any skill whatsoever as a general. Have we really seen him place troops at the right location and tell them which formations they should use, when to attack and when to wait? All we've seen Rand do is attack personally. A great general can stand half a mile away from the battlefield and his army can still come out victorious. Rand constantly has to use the OP to push back the enemy himself, otherwise his troops would simply be crushed. IMHO he acts more like a weapon or a soldier, but certainly notlike a general (this doesn't mean he's not a great general, it just means that he hasn't shown us yet).

[XXX]

Any skill he has shown(before getting LTT's memories) have been greater than what Egwene has shown. Which is a grand ZERO.

[sleepinghour]

On the other hand, Egwene didn't need to go into dangerous situations to begin with.

Three out of four sparkers die, so Egwene might not have lived if she hadn't gone to the Tower. In one of Rand's alternate lives in TGH, she stayed in the Two Rivers and died from channeling sickness. In another life, she apparently made it and became Wisdom after Nynaeve.

[MasterAblar]

I wasn't aware of the actual timeline and just took everyone at their word that it was a year later. At only one month that really puts the whole campaign in a diff light...not sure if Rand can truly be said to have stopped the Seanchan advance if that is the case.

 

He didn't stop their advance.

 

He did destroy an army of maybe a hundred thousand of the enemies highly trained troops while only loosing a couple of thousand men of dubious loyalty. I put that one in the win column.

 

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

The Seanchan lost a lot more than he did, and it stalled them even if only for a short time. It's likely they would already be attacking Illian (the city), if he hadn't attacked first. His goal when he left Illian for with his army for Altara was not to utterly obliterate them, otherwise he would have taken a much larger army.

 

Rand needed time, and he gained it by stalling the Seanchan.

[MasterAblar]

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

I have to agree with the people that say that Rand hasn't shown any skill whatsoever as a general. Have we really seen him place troops at the right location and tell them which formations they should use, when to attack and when to wait? All we've seen Rand do is attack personally. A great general can stand half a mile away from the battlefield and his army can still come out victorious. Rand constantly has to use the OP to push back the enemy himself, otherwise his troops would simply be crushed. IMHO he acts more like a weapon or a soldier, but certainly notlike a general (this doesn't mean he's not a great general, it just means that he hasn't shown us yet).

 

At what point during the Illian campaign did he enter the fray himself?

 

Besides, we know that he has LTT memories, and we know how great a general LTT was, so even if Rand was the lousiest general ever before completly joining with LTT, he should now be one of the best.

[MasterAblar]

I don't really see how Rand or Egwene are braver than eachother. How does Egwene really have a choice? Is she a moral person, does she have a conscience? Then she never really had a choice. But that doesn't make what she did anything but extremely brave. Just like the fact that Rand's actions are just as brave despite the fact that he had no choice in the matter, because as Tam said if Rand had the choice he would not have done differently. And that because Rand is a moral person with a conscience, and because he like Egwene do not ignore their responsability to the world. Therefore just as Egwene acted responsible when she refused to be a puppet and choose to right the WT, Rand was just as responsible when he finaly accepted that he was the Dragon.

 

As for Rand taking a book (tGH) to accept that he was the Dragon, I think that can be forgiven when you consider just what it means to be the Dragon, and in any case Egwene has never had to face that.

Well, look at how long Rand spent running away - I think that shows that if he had a choice he would have chosen differently.

 

That's not what I got out of Rand and Tam's discussion in tGS.

 

Not to mention that it's a lot harder to accept being the Dragon Reborn than to accept being the Amrylin. The Amrylin is a position of great prestige. The Dragon Reborn is one tied to destruction, fear, and hatred. Rand himself thought that there was no danger great enough that anyone would want the Dragon Reborn to save them from.

 

 

The Aiel are irrelevant, as their fighting skill says nothing of Rand's personal military skill. I could accept that what I said at first might have been misconstrued, but surely my clarification should have cleared up any misunderstanding? I did specify I was talking about the competence of Rand as a general, versus that of Egwene as a general, not in the capabilities of their respective armed forces. Having any number of Great Captains under you is thus not in the slightest bit a relevant consideration. The only thing you bring up that is even remotely related to what I said was LTT's competence as a general, but which battles has he won in the series? I also pointed out that Egwene has lacked opportunity to prove herself as a general.

 

We know that LTT was more or less the greatest general in the AoL, even if he hasn't fought any battles in the current series. Egwene has lacked oppurtunity because she has left military things to Gareth Bryne, so she never tried her hand. She clearly thought it best to leave those things to people who were more experienced, more knowlegable. While Rand is already a good military leader, if not the best, with addition of LTT, it sort of kills any possible comparison.

 

I see no evidence that Rand should be counted amongst the best military leaders in the series' present. He's not incompetent, but that's about all that can be said for sure.

 

Even if you think Rand is complete rubish as a general, which you don't seem to, just that he's nothing special, what do you do with LTT? He was the greatest general along with perhaps Demandred and Sammael. How does that not place him pretty high? Not neccesarily the best, but still pretty high right?

 

Even with just Rand, if you compare the losses he took, to the losses the Seanchan took, I'd say he comes off pretty well. And he did it with a much smaller force.

[Suttree]

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

Didn't Bashere plan the Altaran campaign? I could be wrong but that's how I remember it for some reason...

 

Also quick question does anyone know what the Asahaman to Damane ratio was in the battle?

[MasterAblar]

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

 

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

Didn't Bashere plan the Altaran campaign? I could be wrong but that's how I remember it for some reason...

 

Also quick question does anyone know what the Asahaman to Damane ratio was in the battle?

 

There were probably more damane overall, but Rand's forces didn't fight them all at once. Why?

 

It's hard to say who planned what, but the original idea was Rand's I believe. Can't say who planned every skirmish they fought though.

[Suttree]

There were probably more damane overall, but Rand's forces didn't fight them all at once. Why?

 

I just find that match up really interesting. People acknowledge that Damane and Ashaman are by far the two best groups w/ attack weaves. Would be interested to see if it was mentioned anywhere how many Damane the Seanchan had. I know the forces didn't exactly meet head on, but if the Ashaman were outnumbered by a large margin that is really impressive.

[Muad Cheade]

From what goes on in tPoD 14, it seems the overall plan atleast was Rand's idea.

 

I don't believe the exact number of damane is known, but they were affected by the strangeness of saidar/sadin more so than the Asha'man.

[Stitch]

Are they equal? No.

But I think that she is important enough that she should be allowed to shine his shoes (with permission of course - and a slap if she does a sloppy job)

 

Seriously though, she is no where near as influential as her predecessor was perceived to be (though the tower itself is probably more powerful now in terms of numbers given the Kin and in terms of weaves) both because of the changing degree of reverence of women channellers, the emergence of a male channelling organisation and the recent lack of tower cohesion which would influence many to more readily perceive the tower's shortcomings. The Kin have more female channelers, as do the sea folk, the wise ones and the seanchan... the Aes sedai are far down the list in terms of organisation strength even before considering the three oaths, their major claim is to be the most established, though it is arguable that the Aes Sedai organisation of today is nothing like what it used to be so even that legitimacy is questionable - still they are an important factor given that the other female channelling groups do not tend to play any major proactive role in randland politics. However that political influence HAS waned - the degree to which she may exercise the white tower's 'might' is diminished and she will have to search for alternate sources of power... personally I think she would have a hard time attempting to become as influential as her predecessor was, though Im sure the writing team will manage it (or at least to say in an epilogue that she one day does just that) given that the sea folk and wise ones arent likely to accept her leadership (allies perhaps, certainly not subordinates)

 

Interestingly, if rand debates things with her - even if he gives her position ANY credence, her own influence is likely to be somewhat legitimised. If rand were to discuss matters with the heads of state rather than Egwene he would likely break the white tower's influence to an all new low.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The argument that Egwene is braver because she choose her path and Rand did not is extremely silly. I choose to fight fires for a living. That doesn't make me automatically braver than a random passerby who pulls people from a burning building (the opposite is very probably true). Bravery is in the action, not in how you came to find yourself in a position to act.

I would disagree with that analogy - I see it as more like a man trapped in a burning building and another man outside, firefighter or not. The man in the building can stay put and hope for rescue, or try and find his way out, but he has no choice about being in a burning building. The man outside doesn't have to run in to save people - he has a choice about whether or not he puts himself in danger. And I see a willingness to put your life at risk as being braver (if usually also more foolish) than finding your life in danger and merely trying to survive.

 

But you fail to see that Rand's and Egwene's burning houses are completely different (to continue your analogy).

Except they're not. Rand might be in a hotter part of the house, but it's still the same house. Rand is still trapped in a burning building, Egwene is still rushing into it.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. For me the dangers and challenges they have faced are fundamentally different (Rand's being much, much worse).

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently.

Those posters being...? Thus far, most everyone seems to be in agreement that Egwene is not as important as Rand. Whether or not she is an essential part of things or is completely replaceable is debated, but that's a bit different.

 

Some mystery makes life more interesting

If Egwene is "essential" (for winning the Last Battle, I guess), then she is equally important as the DR - becasue every essential element is...Well, essential.

The question should be - could the Last Battle be won without Egwene? I think the answer is yes , the rules of the series allow for it.

 

And about Rand's skills as a general - if you debate it on a stand-alone basis, you could have different opinions. But if you compare him with Egwene in that regard, then Rand at least is a general. Egwene has no military knowledge or experience whatsoever - she delegated all military matters to Bryne, making only most important political decisions (e.g. whether to march for Tar Valon). That was wisely done btw - good leaders know how to delegate.

[Gordar]

A lot of people keep saying LTT was a great general & Rand has his memories, so Rand must be a great general as well. Even though this might be true, it is not very likely. If you put general Patton, Rommel, Lee, etc. in ancient or medieval times, they'll most likely fail miserably. The weapons are different and so are the tactics.

 

Of course, just for the sake of the story, Demandred & LTT could be portrayed as great generals even in this age, but that'd seem rather unrealistic to me.

[David Selig]

There were probably more damane overall, but Rand's forces didn't fight them all at once. Why?

 

I just find that match up really interesting. People acknowledge that Damane and Ashaman are by far the two best groups w/ attack weaves. Would be interested to see if it was mentioned anywhere how many Damane the Seanchan had. I know the forces didn't exactly meet head on, but if the Ashaman were outnumbered by a large margin that is really impressive.

At one point Miraj mentioned he had 50 damane with him, but that was just part of his army. Later on Bashere mentioned that there are 100 damane, maybe more, facing them, right before Rand decided it's time to use Callandor.

[JKN-SW]

A lot of people keep saying LTT was a great general & Rand has his memories, so Rand must be a great general as well. Even though this might be true, it is not very likely. If you put general Patton, Rommel, Lee, etc. in ancient or medieval times, they'll most likely fail miserably. The weapons are different and so are the tactics.

 

Of course, just for the sake of the story, Demandred & LTT could be portrayed as great generals even in this age, but that'd seem rather unrealistic to me.

 

I would think quite the opposite. All military study military history to learn from it, and military knowledge, as all other fields of knowledge, develop. So a modern dey general, with the knowledge of actions all the way up to and including his own career, would very likely be a very good commander if put back in time.

 

LTT on the ohter hand is "moved forward" in time, so the big question is how different the battles of the 3rd age are, compared to the AoL? AoL had a much higher level of technology, asnd presuming LTT had also studied warfare that was "less developed" he would very likely be a great general under those conditions too.

[XXX]

There were probably more damane overall, but Rand's forces didn't fight them all at once. Why?

 

I just find that match up really interesting. People acknowledge that Damane and Ashaman are by far the two best groups w/ attack weaves. Would be interested to see if it was mentioned anywhere how many Damane the Seanchan had. I know the forces didn't exactly meet head on, but if the Ashaman were outnumbered by a large margin that is really impressive.

 

Not sure if this battle is a reflection on their abilities..the Damane were not trained to fight saiden and both damane and suldam were in a panic when facing the men...of all things known about the Seachan the next time the 2 groups face off they will be more ready.

[XXX]

double post

[MasterAblar]

I'd say the ashaman have a few advantages on the damane, 2 of which are:

 

They're channeling men which will freak anyone out. There's no reason for the ashaman to be freaked out by the damane.

 

They channel saidin which the damane have no experience fighting. The ashaman on the other hand fight saidar all the time.

[MasterAblar]

From what goes on in tPoD 14, it seems the overall plan atleast was Rand's idea.

 

I don't believe the exact number of damane is known, but they were affected by the strangeness of saidar/sadin more so than the Asha'man.

 

Are you sure they were affected more by it? I remember the ashaman being affected plenty, but Rand told them (rather blindly, and arrogantly, and annoyingly) that there was no problem at all. So they just worked through it as best they could. Even when Dashiva finally made Rand recognise that something was off with saidin, Rand still told them to carry on saying that saidin is always hard to control. Just a little later we see that Adley (I think) completely lost control of saidin, and another group of ashaman with Bashere had trouble as well.

 

I think Rand just forced the ashaman to take the risk, whereas the damane were more cautious overall with the damane.