Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Mr Ares]

Hmmm, I think either you've missing Mr Ares' joke big time, or I've missed yours. Or maybe I've just misread the whole thing.

 

If it was a joke, I totally missed it. Ares is mean though, so I think it's understandable =/

Me, mean? It's very sweet of you to say so. But I was joking (over the course of the thread I've been accused of being an Egwene lover and of moving the goalposts, by people who both refuse to counter my points and who cannot point to evidence showing that I've moved the goalposts or even that I'm an Egwene fan. In this thread, moving the goalposts should probably be taken as a compliment that you're debating well).

[Guest PiotrekS]

Which I don't agree with. She gave him two choices: either surrender to WT guidance (which is submit in any normal sense) or make a petition, which is asking WT to do something. But asking Aes Sedai to do something, as was pointed out since the first chapters of the first book, is to accept their guidance and directions in all matters.

 

So basically, she didn't give him much of a choice, really. But yes, she is "formally" asked him to submit himself to the will of the WT.

 

She just asked him to "surrender" to her guidance..lol

 

I should have know better than to respond to the x-rated troll in the first place but since Skeeve brought it up as well. Are you both just ignoring the sentence that came before Egwene asking if Rand wanted guidance? What she said was:

 

"Why have you come before the Amyrlin Seat?" she asked.

"Have you come to make a petition, or have you come to surrender yourself to the White Tower's guidance?"

 

She is not telling him to do anything. She is asking why he came, which quite clearly is not Egwene demanding Rand "submit" to the WT.

 

As all debates when people tend to disagree... we see meaning and analyze things differently =O

For me the last meaning in the last quote goes as this; that the Amyrlin means that either the Dragon, blessed be his name in the Light and all things shiney is there to make a petition or there to surrender to the all wise guidance of the Tower.

If Egwene indeed was interested in the why she would have sshhhhed after the first question and listened to the Dragon´s answer. You could argue that everyone that gets to see the Amyrlin is assumed to either surrender or have a petition, but then maybe the first question was unnecessary.

 

In a way we are like Rand Sedai and Egwene. Too set in our ways, thinking we know all that we need to know, we should meet halfway and atleast agree to disagree on Egwene. Some see her as poorly written, everything that is horrible and despised in Aes Sedai, a hypocritical b*tch that speaks a certain way of values and acts on another set, some see her as a consistently written char, a step towards the Aes Sedai as they should be, a great badass Amyrlin, gowing a little step towards the AS being servants of old, and if not that, then atleast a well-needed step towards a Tower that maybe will be strong again and work for themselves AND for the people.

 

Rand fears that Egwene is as the AS the last time they failed him from his PoV- afraid, thinking they know all.. but most important thinking they fear men, strong men and especially men that can channel and will go mad. Egwene is also set in her ways, to narrow-minded to trust a man that can channel that was her friend, to set in the ways of how women view men in the world. So both have their issues. Rand is on top though, cause he sadly predicts Egwene´s reaction and uses it for his own advantage. We will see how that will work out. Rand also realizes that he needs women, maybe deep down he sees that it´s about balance in everything, even men and women, but Egwene hasn´t come to that realization yet as she is still rabid abit saidin-wielding black-coated men going crazy. Rand has had his phase of mistrusting and hating Aes Sedai and wanting them all if not dead then atleast controlled and under his thumb when he was Dark. Egwene is still in that phase in regards to her view of men/Asha´man but I hope she will come of around. I do, only for the Balance-theme of the books. If not... well then she is a poorly written char. Even if RJ intended her to act that way And with all this said, I think I have a tiny bit of love for Egwene. I can see the little puny diamond in there with all the roughness, I just wish the roughness would come off already.

 

End.

 

As much as I'd love to chalk this up to 'differences of view' your explanation still makes no sense with respect to this thread. Even if she was only offering him two choices, that is still not a demand. So... yeah. And of course he petitioned her, which was choice 1, so you could say she was right in assuming it was either or.

 

Plus, the tower has tried to guide Rand since tGH when they told him he was the DR. He has been resisting ever since. It's entirely possible (as far as Egwene knows) that he could feel lost, helpless or overwhelmed and that he may have decided to go to the tower for help, which would be surrendering to tower guidance. So the second option is also quite legitimate without being sinister too.

 

OMG. Isn't it great how people can read the same books so differently and still be fans and have mainly polite discussions?

 

If you really think that what Egwene said to Rand was an appropriate thing to say to him in the circumstances than all I have to say is bless you, carry on, hope we'll talk about something else sometime.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

can you still talk about anything else? or have you become powerless against your addiction? it's OK, PiotrekS. just 11 more steps.

[Entreri]

This garbage still continuing? Amusing, especially the troll and the fangirls.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

which am i? which are you?

 

yes, the thread goes ever on and on.

 

 

****************************************

 

edited to settle it once and for all

 

 

 

a 1

 

b 2

 

c 3

 

d 4

 

e 5

 

f 6

 

g 7

 

h 8

 

i 9

 

j 10

 

k 11

 

l 12

 

m 13

 

n 14

 

o 15

 

p 16

 

q 17

 

r 18

 

s 19

 

t 20

 

u 21

 

v 22

 

w 23

 

x 24

 

y 25

 

z 26

 

 

d r a g o n

4 + 18 + 1 + 7 + 15 + 14 = 59

 

a m y r l i n

1 + 13 + 25 + 18 + 12 + 9 + 14 = 92

 

dragon < amyrlin.

 

 

done.

[XXX]

Egwene lovers trying their best to get this thread locked..as it has been proved beyond any doubt that the Amyrlin is no where near the Dragon in respect to power.

[Entreri]

which am i? which are you?

 

yes, the thread goes ever on and on.

 

 

****************************************

 

edited to settle it once and for all

 

 

 

a 1

 

b 2

 

c 3

 

d 4

 

e 5

 

f 6

 

g 7

 

h 8

 

i 9

 

j 10

 

k 11

 

l 12

 

m 13

 

n 14

 

o 15

 

p 16

 

q 17

 

r 18

 

s 19

 

t 20

 

u 21

 

v 22

 

w 23

 

x 24

 

y 25

 

z 26

 

 

d r a g o n

4 + 18 + 1 + 7 + 15 + 14 = 59

 

a m y r l i n

1 + 13 + 25 + 18 + 12 + 9 + 14 = 92

 

dragon < amyrlin.

 

 

done.

 

I wasn't addressing you.

 

Anyway, neither facts, rationality or logic is how fangirls (or boys) derive said position (akin to such things as one's religion, like or dislike of actors/singers by tweens etc) and thus having a rational discussion would be pointless.

 

It depends on what is being compared.

 

In the series clearly, the DR >> Amyrlin, given role and responsibility of said position (saving the world vs. leading the AS).

 

Now Egwene may have better fashion sense and possibly talent in TAR and other abilities...

 

That is all I will have to say on this topic, I do admit that one troll was good, but I have ignored him and played him as he had done me :) Turnabout is fair play.

[Kahsm]

Egwene lovers trying their best to get this thread locked..as it has been proved beyond any doubt that the Amyrlin is no where near the Dragon in respect to power.

 

Has anyone argued that she is? I don't think so. "Egwene Lovers" have argued against your ridiculous hyperbole or against the question itself. Only the haters make silly categorical statements like "The DR is better than Egwene in every way".

 

And if you dislike Egwene yet disapprove of those sorts of umbrella statements with zero evidence other than gut feeling, then I suggest you speak out against them too, because you're making XXX47 and Entreri think they're acting rationally.

 

Like Logain seems like a rational fellow, but it's hard to separate him from the blind hate sometimes.

[UncleButcher1980]

Kael, I think it's best we all stop feeding the trolls now else they'll never leave.

[MasterAblar]

Egwene lovers trying their best to get this thread locked..as it has been proved beyond any doubt that the Amyrlin is no where near the Dragon in respect to power.

 

Has anyone argued that she is? I don't think so. "Egwene Lovers" have argued against your ridiculous hyperbole or against the question itself. Only the haters make silly categorical statements like "The DR is better than Egwene in every way".

 

And if you dislike Egwene yet disapprove of those sorts of umbrella statements with zero evidence other than gut feeling, then I suggest you speak out against them too, because you're making XXX47 and Entreri think they're acting rationally.

 

Like Logain seems like a rational fellow, but it's hard to separate him from the blind hate sometimes.

 

Who? Me? Or do you mean Logain's Pet?

[Kahsm]

Egwene lovers trying their best to get this thread locked..as it has been proved beyond any doubt that the Amyrlin is no where near the Dragon in respect to power.

 

Has anyone argued that she is? I don't think so. "Egwene Lovers" have argued against your ridiculous hyperbole or against the question itself. Only the haters make silly categorical statements like "The DR is better than Egwene in every way".

 

And if you dislike Egwene yet disapprove of those sorts of umbrella statements with zero evidence other than gut feeling, then I suggest you speak out against them too, because you're making XXX47 and Entreri think they're acting rationally.

 

Like Logain seems like a rational fellow, but it's hard to separate him from the blind hate sometimes.

 

Who? Me? Or do you mean Logain's Pet?

 

I don't know who I mean, it's possible I thought you were the same person :p So I'll say both until someone reminds me otherwise. Too lazy to read back just for that.

[Guest PiotrekS]

can you still talk about anything else? or have you become powerless against your addiction? it's OK, PiotrekS. just 11 more steps.

 

Sure I can! I can stop whenerer I want! (is it denial?)

 

This thread has gone on for too long, time to move on IMHO. I'v never really liked the war of attrition.

[Hybrid]

This thread is hilarious. And to think that I'd been worried that this forum was getting too boring.

 

Now all we need is for Mik to pop up and tell us that Egwene is Ishamael's daughter or some such to get Luckers and Maj involved and we're golden.

[Kahsm]

Just to try and reignite this.

 

The authors have said that this is a lose once game for the light. they can win or draw, but if they lose, all of time ends.

 

It was also confirmed that the Dragon has been corrupted in the past. Since the light cannot have lost without ending everything, someone, or some group, must have been at least equal to the Shadow-Dragon in the distant past ;)

[Jon Paul]

I am of the opinion that the Dragon has never failed, but rather the Dragon Reborn has, and Mat and PerrinKs position as ta'veren act as a saftey net incase that happens.

 

That's right. Eqwene still not close.

[SuperFade]

Just to try and reignite this.

 

The authors have said that this is a lose once game for the light. they can win or draw, but if they lose, all of time ends.

 

It was also confirmed that the Dragon has been corrupted in the past. Since the light cannot have lost without ending everything, someone, or some group, must have been at least equal to the Shadow-Dragon in the distant past ;)

 

If I recall correctly, The Champion of the Light has been corrupted before. The Dragon has never been corrupted. They are not necessarily the same role. It's been debated a lot.

[Mr Ares]

This thread is hilarious. And to think that I'd been worried that this forum was getting too boring.

 

Now all we need is for Mik to pop up and tell us that Egwene is Ishamael's daughter or some such to get Luckers and Maj involved and we're golden.

The great thing about Mik is that he'd have quotes to "prove" it. No matter how crazy, he'd have quotes.

 

 

I am of the opinion that the Dragon has never failed, but rather the Dragon Reborn has, and Mat and PerrinKs position as ta'veren act as a saftey net incase that happens.

 

That's right. Eqwene still not close.

Well, the Dragon (as distinct from the Dragon Reborn) didn't save the world - he delayed the Shadow's victory, more by luck than judgement (his plan did nothing to address the armies massed against him), and in doing so he cursed every male channeler for the next few millennia to go insane and die. I'm not aware of Egwene or any Amyrlin having any cock ups on that scale, so I agree, they're not close - Amyrlins are better.

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

Well, the Dragon (as distinct from the Dragon Reborn) didn't save the world - he delayed the Shadow's victory, more by luck than judgement (his plan did nothing to address the armies massed against him), and in doing so he cursed every male channeler for the next few millennia to go insane and die. I'm not aware of Egwene or any Amyrlin having any cock ups on that scale, so I agree, they're not close - Amyrlins are better.

But au contraire Mr Ares, the Dragon has saved the very fabric of reality from Shai'tan countless times in the past (or if you're a pessimist, at least prevented his total domination).

 

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

 

That little mishap with saidin is just one of those things, bound to happen eventually anyway. Best sweep it under the rug and forget about it

[Hybrid]

This thread is hilarious. And to think that I'd been worried that this forum was getting too boring.

 

Now all we need is for Mik to pop up and tell us that Egwene is Ishamael's daughter or some such to get Luckers and Maj involved and we're golden.

The great thing about Mik is that he'd have quotes to "prove" it. No matter how crazy, he'd have quotes.

 

Agreed. I respect him for that, even if I think his theories were insane. I wasn't comparing him to this thread; I was comparing his ability to rile us up with this thread's.

 

On topic:

 

But au contraire Mr Ares, the Dragon has saved the very fabric of reality from Shai'tan countless times in the past (or if you're a pessimist, at least prevented his total domination).

 

I think that depends on your definition of "Dragon" and interpretation of the Wheel.

 

For one thing, as far as we know, the epithet "Dragon" wasn't associated with that particular soul until Lews Therin came around. Thus by semantics alone, the Dragon only bought the world some time.

 

For another, I don't buy that there necessarily has to be a champion of the Light each time Shai'tan's influence is felt. From what we know, Lews Therin himself wasn't a messiah figure. He was one of the most powerful and important figures to fight against Shai'tan, but he didn't have the same connection to the land that Rand apparently has. Arguably, all that's necessary is a few ta'veren at key times, and perhaps not even that.

[Himiko]

The only female forsaken that we can't place for certain is Mesaana- we have a quote saying she's not particularly strong in Forsaken terms.

Egwene described Mesaana as "very strong in the Power." If Mesaana had been weaker or of the same strength as Egwene, I think it would have been said. Brandon said Mesaana was weaker than Nynaeve and not particularly strong in Forsaken terms, so Egwene's estimation was probably in relation to her own strength.

 

I'm sorry, but establishing Nynaeve as a skilled channeler, who learns weaves very, very quickly, but specialises herself largely in healing, through most of the series, and then have another character suddenly comment on how lame she is on anything outside of healing, when we've never seen any evidence of this in her actual weaving, except for someone else, also very skilled at healing, being better than her in healing, isn't "giving your character realistic weaknesses", its really inconsistent.

Even stranger is that it's Cadsuane who says this after meeting Nynaeve in Far Madding where she can't possibly have seen Nynaeve channel, aside from the two times they went riding outside the Guardian's reach. Did Cadsuane have Nynaeve demonstrate all the weaves she knows while on horseback?

 

IMO, RJ was trying to set up Nynaeve and Alivia as polar opposites.

 

Cadsuane about Nynaeve in WH: "The girl had good material in her, but her training had been cut far too short. Her ability with Healing was little short of miraculous, her ability with almost anything else dismal."

 

Verin about Alivia in WH: "I believe she may know almost every way there is to destroy something with the Power, but she knows almost nothing else."

 

So Alivia who only knows how to destroy is going to help Rand die, while Nynaeve who has focused on Healing to the exclusion of almost everything else is going to help Rand live again (at least, this has been heavily foreshadowed). RJ liked to add that sort of symbolism everywhere...even where it didn't make a lot of sense. In ToM, Mesaana was called "the Shadow's Amyrlin" to make her seem more like Egwene's dark counterpart.

 

I can agree with the Nyn weaving assessment. I do believe Nyn is supposed to be the healer, in contrast to Alivia. I suspect RJ might say she was more lucky than she thinks fighting Mogh. Similar to what BS says about Gawyn after writing him like a sword god.

 

As for Egwene, I think her assessment would be relative to Aes Sedai in general. So it depends how strong she thinks she is. And given good ol' Egwene confidence, I'd say she also considers herself very strong.

 

And I just thought of this now. Egwene complimenting Nyn could very well be chalked up to the friend perspective. Like how Rand says Perrin is better with women, but Perrin says Rand is better with women.

 

Sorry, realise I've fallen a bit behind in this thread, but just to clarify, do you mean that Egwene sees Nynaeve's weaves as complex relating to what other AS can do, rather than what Egwene herself can do? I'm sure I've read passages from Egwene's POV where she specifically says that she, Egwene, could not follow Nynaeve's weaving, as it was too complex. And I'm equally sure that Egwene has specifically said that Nynaeve can replicate any weave once she has seen it once, a gift that Egwene does not have. And, unlike Perrin and Rand's relative success with women, one's weaving ability is not so open to intepretation. Rand and Perrin might believe the other is more attractive to females, but if Egwene sees Nynaeve weaving and thinks its way too complicated for her to replicate, then either its too complicated for Egwene to replicate, or Egwene has big self confidence issues. THis doesn't mean for sure that Nynaeve can split her weaves more than Egwene, it may be to do with Egwene's lack of aptitude for healing, as I believe it was her healing stilling weave that Egwene compared to being crazy-complicated. But that's what I always assumed.

 

Apologies if I misunderstood you!

[Kahsm]

I should have realized the discussion would get caught on the meaning of 'dragon'. I meant that the incarnation of the LTT/Rand soul had been turned in the past and yet the DO still didn't win. Mat and Perrin are not heroes, and I think we'd know if LTT had two super ta'veren as part of his entourage, so I doubt "some ta'veren" are always around to be that balance.

 

Also, as Mr.Ares pointed out, you don't need a CoS (champion of shadow?) to have a draw. The CoL might just screw something up. But if the soul does go CoS, evidence suggests he's not so godly that a mundane force can't cause a draw.

 

I'm not saying Egwene is that force, just disputing the logic behind the argument that Rand is the best because he's the CoL.

[Mr Ares]

I should have realized the discussion would get caught on the meaning of 'dragon'. I meant that the incarnation of the LTT/Rand soul had been turned in the past and yet the DO still didn't win. Mat and Perrin are not heroes, and I think we'd know if LTT had two super ta'veren as part of his entourage, so I doubt "some ta'veren" are always around to be that balance.

 

Also, as Mr Ares pointed out, you don't need a CoS (champion of shadow?) to have a draw. The CoL might just screw something up. But if the soul does go CoS, evidence suggests he's not so godly that a mundane force can't cause a draw.

 

I'm not saying Egwene is that force, just disputing the logic behind the argument that Rand is the best because he's the CoL.

You make some good points. If we look at the Sha'rah game in PoD Prologue, we see that it is possible for either side to win regardless of which side the Fisher is on - but it is also possible to win by ignoring the Fisher and just going for a wipeout. Rand (the Fisher) might be the most important piece on the board, but if, for example, Egwene lead a crusade that destroyed all the Shadow's forces and Rand sat things out, the Light can win without him. Likewise, even if he turns to the Shadow, the Light can force a win by manipulating him into acting in ways that benefit the Light.

[LukeDuke]

I should have realized the discussion would get caught on the meaning of 'dragon'. I meant that the incarnation of the LTT/Rand soul had been turned in the past and yet the DO still didn't win. Mat and Perrin are not heroes, and I think we'd know if LTT had two super ta'veren as part of his entourage, so I doubt "some ta'veren" are always around to be that balance.

 

Also, as Mr Ares pointed out, you don't need a CoS (champion of shadow?) to have a draw. The CoL might just screw something up. But if the soul does go CoS, evidence suggests he's not so godly that a mundane force can't cause a draw.

 

I'm not saying Egwene is that force, just disputing the logic behind the argument that Rand is the best because he's the CoL.

You make some good points. If we look at the Sha'rah game in PoD Prologue, we see that it is possible for either side to win regardless of which side the Fisher is on - but it is also possible to win by ignoring the Fisher and just going for a wipeout. Rand (the Fisher) might be the most important piece on the board, but if, for example, Egwene lead a crusade that destroyed all the Shadow's forces and Rand sat things out, the Light can win without him. Likewise, even if he turns to the Shadow, the Light can force a win by manipulating him into acting in ways that benefit the Light.

 

I think Egwene has learned everything from someone else, and in the worst way possible. The Aiel beat it into her and so did the Seanchan, and really, the forsaken played a big part in shaping her. It makes her harsh. Egwene has deep seeded emotional problems with authority that it seems will eventually drag her down. She may be an ok amyrlin, but I don't see her being a world leader...plus, she doesn't have much to live up to if you consider what the last few amyrlins have been like. She's more like Rand than she'd care to admit and I think the only way she can surviive is to let Rand lead.