Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Entreri]

It continues with an absurd series of posts suggesting that two characters clearly not intended to be equals are in fact equals, or even that the lesser is the greater;

Sprinkled throughout are remarkably foolish statements that a character who been in command for not so much as a skirmish is a better general than one who is, in this life (to say nothing of others), an experienced commander;

And seemingly coming to a conclusion with an assertion that remembering exactly how to accomplish a task(a task involving mental rather than physical effort) somehow does not equal having skill in performing that task.

I see you're still imagining stuff rather than actually reading the thread. After all, it was actually argued that as Egwene has not been in charge of so much as a skirmish there is therefore no evidence to say what her level of skill is. Rand is definitely more experienced, but where is the evidence that he is better? Remembering how to accomplish a task is one thing, but skill is something else - skills, even mental ones, can atrophy with disuse. Even then, an immense knowledge of weaves would not necessarily equal great skill with those weaves.

 

 

You keep going on and on about Ewgene's amazing skills in the One Power.

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

"How well did LTT do at the hundred weaves?.

 

He is the only male Aes Sedai still living that was properly raised, as he told Cadsuane.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

"One can kill thousands of Trollocs through strength, it's not a given it's a show of skill. He's defeated Chosen via strength and outside interference, but I can't recall any instance of a win via him being the more skilled channeler."

 

Because your bias is clouding your judgement. Does anybody really think that a 19 year old girl is more skilled than LTT?

Again, LTT has nothing to do with this - it's about Rand and Egwene. And why should I accept that a 19 year old girl is significantly less skilled than a 20 year old boy? And once again, you dodge the point - when has Rand achieved victory over another Chosen via skill, rather than having help or being stronger? Balthamel wasn't killed by Rand, nor was Aginor, nor Be'lal. Ishamael was killed by Rand when he was using callandor - one of the strongest sa'angreal ever made. When he and Asmo were equally matched in strength, his victory came via an angreal giving him a (relatively) tiny edge in terms of strength. Lanfear was killed by Moiraine, Rand was losing to Rahvin until Nynave interfered and gave him a chance to unleash masses of balefire, Graendal killed Asmo, Mashadar killed Sammael, Elza killed Osan'gar, masses of balefire and an assist from Graendal killed Aran'gar, TP and balefire was what did for Semi. Where is Rand's greater skill against the Chosen? How about you show me some evidence that my bias is clouding my judgement?

 

You don't find defeating Forsaken to be impressive?

I do, but "who is the most impressive was not at issue". What we were talking about was who had the most skill. If you challenged me to a contest to see who was the better fencer, the artillery barrage I use to flatten your house and kill you might be impressive, but it wouldn't make me a better swordsman. Rand has some impressive achievements, no doubt about it, but if you are so insistent that Rand is a more skilled channeler, show me the evidence.

 

Egwene herself was amazed at how many ways Rand split his Weaves (book 4).

Splitting weaves is a matter of strength - stronger channelers can split their weaves more ways than weaker ones. Therefore Rand, being stronger than Egwene, should be able to split his weaves more ways.

 

You may well be the only person that believe that Egwene is more skiled than LTT.

It may be that not even I believe it. But I am asking you for evidence that Rand is more skilled. Provide some, or stop trolling.

 

 

As I asked you earlier, how would Rand have know in TGH that he had never turned to the Dark? This was far before he had any of LTT's memories and you were more than happy to use that as evidence.

I never used Rand's word as confirmation..I said that if his soul had turned to the dark once then it could never again be the dragon soul in any age.

Which is something you have made up, with no supporting evidence.

\

 

 

"That doesn't answer my question." The Chosen think of these new generation AS has half-trained children, which indicates that AS testing in AoL is MUCH MUCH tougher than currently. This indicates the skill level of AoL channelers in general.

 

 

A dead tired Rand, stood toe-to-toe with Asmodean. OP battle. Now that he has all knowledge of LTT, there is no contest, Egwene is an insect.

 

Lanfear was not killed by Moraine, she was trapped in Elf and Fox land, the second prisoner.

 

I have given several examples of Rand's amazing skills, you just conveniently ignore them. More like you are trolling me.

 

Skill = Able to handle many many weaves at once, able to create complex weavings, able to combine weaves like never done previously, creating new weavs and so forth.

 

Now go back to thinking that a 19 year old girl is more skillfull than the greatest channeler ever, LTT.

 

I believe you are just being dense for trolling purposes. I provided ample evidence, you have provided none.

 

I rest my case.

[Suttree]

More like you are trolling me.

 

HAHA did someone with a sig named after a D&D character seriously just call Mr. Ares a troll? Just practically spit a gallon of coffee all over my desk...

 

and btw, when did he say Eg was more skilled? Your post did nothing to address this:

 

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

[Entreri]

Egwene is nothing special.

 

Ah yes, I see. Being an extremely powerful Dreamer (potentially greater than any of the Wise Ones), possibly being strong in four (Air, Water, Spirit and Earth), if not five of the Elements of the One Power, being able to weave fourteen different weaves at once, rediscovering Travelling, being able to discover Ores and Metals, being able to produce Cuendillar fast enough to turn the ENTIRE side of the harbour chain into cuendillar in a FLASH (which requires a good deal of skill, btw), and being a very strong channeler (she is currently stronger than Elayne, though eventually they will be equal), is indeed nothing special. Being the Amrylin is nothing special, being able to defeat Mesaana one-one is nothing special.

 

The average person would be able to do that. I see that now.

 

Speculation: Most powerful Dreamer and 4 or 5 elements.

 

Avienhda is the first one to actually Travel...even though she forgot how she did it.

 

Cuendillar ok.

 

Messana defeat was impressive. Rand has defeated 5 Forsaken (6 if you count Aginor), Moraine 2, Nyaneve 1, Elza 1, Green Man 1.

 

But Nynaeve for instance has done more spectacular things than Egwene and Elayne is nearly right there with her.

 

Compare to her friends, she is nothing special. Compared to other AS, she is something special.

[randsc]

Did someone who recognized that a poster named himself after a D&D character just call someone out for naming themselves after a D&D character?

[Suttree]

Did someone who recognized that a poster named himself after a D&D character just call someone out for naming themselves after a D&D character?

 

Hey Randsc, did you not make any terrible book choices around age 12?

[Entreri]

More like you are trolling me.

 

HAHA did someone with a sig named after a D&D character seriously just call Mr. Ares a troll? Just practically spit a gallon of coffee all over my desk...

 

and btw, when did he say Eg was more skilled? Your post did nothing to address this:

 

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

 

lol.

 

 

Ares: "so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is."

 

 

 

What is skill? Able to handle many many weaves at once, able to create complex weavings, able to combine weaves like never done previously, creating new weavs and so forth.

 

Rand certainly has shown a great deal of skill in the series in comparison to Egwene.

[Suttree]

More like you are trolling me.

 

HAHA did someone with a sig named after a D&D character seriously just call Mr. Ares a troll? Just practically spit a gallon of coffee all over my desk...

 

and btw, when did he say Eg was more skilled? Your post did nothing to address this:

 

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

 

lol.

 

 

Ares: "so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is."

 

 

 

What is skill? Able to handle many many weaves at once, able to create complex weavings, able to combine weaves like never done previously, creating new weavs and so forth.

 

Rand certainly has shown a great deal of skill in the series in comparison to Egwene.

 

and that addresses the flaw in your argument how?

[Entreri]

More like you are trolling me.

 

HAHA did someone with a sig named after a D&D character seriously just call Mr. Ares a troll? Just practically spit a gallon of coffee all over my desk...

 

and btw, when did he say Eg was more skilled? Your post did nothing to address this:

 

I don't, actually - you keep going on about Rand's incredible skills, but have shown precious little evidence. I make no claims either way about Egwene's skills. You haven't shown a massive gulf of skill between Nynaeve and Egwene, and even if there was you haven't shown that Rand is more skilled than Nynaeve making it redundant. After all, Nynaeve could theoretically be more skilled than either Rand or Egwene - I make no claims as to who is more skilled, I simply highlight the flaw in your argument. You only truly have one piece of evidence suggesting greater skill on Nynaeve's part - the Hundred Weaves. Much of the evidence you provide for Rand's skill level is actually evidence of his immense strength, or saying that LTT was amazing. You show no actual evidence of LTT's skill, but simply expect us to accept your line of argument unquestioningly.

 

 

lol.

 

 

Ares: "so even if LTT is more skilled than Egwene it doesn't mean Rand is."

 

 

 

What is skill? Able to handle many many weaves at once, able to create complex weavings, able to combine weaves like never done previously, creating new weavs and so forth.

 

Rand certainly has shown a great deal of skill in the series in comparison to Egwene.

 

and that addresses the flaw in your argument how?

 

 

What flaw? I have shown evidence from the books that clearly show that Rand >> Egwene in skill. I don't feel like continously repeating myself or getting endless quotes from the books.

[Suttree]

What flaw? I have shown evidence from the books that clearly show that Rand >> Egwene in skill. I don't feel like continously repeating myself or getting endless quotes from the books.

 

The original topic was not who is more skilled. It was if there positions are equal. Nor based on Mr. Ares most recent quote above does anyone seem to be arguing that with you...99% of what you have shown is strength not skill.

[Entreri]

What flaw? I have shown evidence from the books that clearly show that Rand >> Egwene in skill. I don't feel like continously repeating myself or getting endless quotes from the books.

 

The original topic was not who is more skilled. It was if there positions are equal. Nor based on Mr. Ares most recent quote above does anyone seem to be arguing that with you...99% of what you have shown is strength not skill.

 

90% of statistics are made on the spot.

 

 

Many have shown why they are not equal in position as well, including yours truly.

[Kaznen]

Seanchan was effected by the Trolloc Wars. They used the portal stones to to bring creatures to this world to fight the trollocs. And the cleared the trollocs, fades, and other Shadowspawn footsoldier out of their half of the blight. Hawkwings soldiers called it the lesser blight because there were no "intelligent" shadowspawn left.

 

And the aftermath of the TW in Shara and the Waste didn't cause a complete social and political structure collapse like in Randland.

[XXX]

 

Egwene herself was amazed at how many ways Rand split his Weaves (book 4).

Splitting weaves is a matter of strength - stronger channelers can split their weaves more ways than weaker ones. Therefore Rand, being stronger than Egwene, should be able to split his weaves more ways.

 

 

 

I do not think it is a matter of strength as I doubt Ny can split her weaves as many times as Egwene and she is many times stronger than Egwene.

[Ala Rubra]

I do not think it is a matter of strength as I doubt Ny can split her weaves as many times as Egwene and she is many times stronger than Egwene.

 

Actually, I don't think we have ever seen Nynaeve in a situation that would necessitate splitting her weaves so much. Even Egwene's fourteen was just to show off her skill to the WT Aes Sedai. So whether or not Nynaeve can is unknown.

[Kahsm]

I do not think it is a matter of strength as I doubt Ny can split her weaves as many times as Egwene and she is many times stronger than Egwene.

 

Actually, I don't think we have ever seen Nynaeve in a situation that would necessitate splitting her weaves so much. Even Egwene's fourteen was just to show off her skill to the WT Aes Sedai. So whether or not Nynaeve can is unknown.

 

I personally believe, though I have no proof. That it is easier for a stronger channeler to split, but generally it requires more "Agility".

 

Strength for power, skill for weaving, agility for splitting.

[XXX]

I do not think it is a matter of strength as I doubt Ny can split her weaves as many times as Egwene and she is many times stronger than Egwene.

 

Actually, I don't think we have ever seen Nynaeve in a situation that would necessitate splitting her weaves so much. Even Egwene's fourteen was just to show off her skill to the WT Aes Sedai. So whether or not Nynaeve can is unknown.

 

We keep hearing about Egwene splitting her weaves 14 ways..just like we hear about how Ny uses all 5 elements for healing. If it is a matter of strength then we should have heard about it from atleast one of the stronger channelers.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Speculation: Most powerful Dreamer and 4 or 5 elements.

Not true. Amys has stated that Egwene is potentially far more powerful than any of the Wise One Dreamwalkers alive. Maybe she isn't the most powerful certainly, but given lack of evidence and also how rare Dreaming and Dreamwalking is, it is safe to assume that she is near the top.

 

Also, Egwene has stated that she barely needed to think to use Air and Water. Dreamers and Dreamwalkers who can channel have an affinity for Spirit, and Egwene herself is abnormally strong in Earth as mentioned in TGH (being able to detect ores in an unused quarry).

 

Avienhda is the first one to actually Travel...even though she forgot how she did it.

But Egwene was the first one to actually REDISCOVER it through conscious inference and deduction. Aviendha did it on the spur of the moment without really knowing what was going on.

 

Messana defeat was impressive. Rand has defeated 5 Forsaken (6 if you count Aginor), Moraine 2, Nyaneve 1, Elza 1, Green Man 1.

Let's see. The six you refer to are Aginor, Ishamael, Rahvin, Sammael, Aran'gar and Semirhage.

 

Aginor killed himself drawing too much of the power.

Rand defeated Ishamael.

Rahvin was owning Rand until Nynaeve showed up.

Sammael got blasted by Mashadar.

Rand didn't defeat Aran'gar. It hardly takes any effort to kill someone who got trussed and bound up for the offering. Rand wasn't even aiming for her, but Graendal. Aran'gar was collateral damage and Graendal got away.

Semirhage owned Rand until the Dark One intervened. I'd say that the Dark One used Rand to defeat her.

 

Rand defeated only 1 or 2 of the Forsaken knowingly and consciously, unless you were refering to others?

[XXX]

If Egwene and Rand go at it face to face using the OP, who exactly do you think will win? She won't last a minute.

[Durinax]

Semi was all rand, it was his efforts that killed her.

 

as for dreaming, egwene may be near the top but I dont think she ranks even closely with teh WO's. (although since there are a handful of them and a shitload of useless AS now in the mix it raises her standings vastly)

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

as for dreaming, egwene may be near the top but I dont think she ranks even closely with teh WO's. (although since there are a handful of them and a shitload of useless AS now in the mix it raises her standings vastly)

 

Weren't you reading? Amys has said that Egwene is potentially far more powerful than any of the Wise Ones.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

If Egwene and Rand go at it face to face using the OP, who exactly do you think will win? She won't last a minute.

 

My money goes to Rand. *Shrugs*. It depends on how they fight each other though. I wouldn't entirely rule Egwene out.

[Manscher]

Wasn't the conclusion regarding Aginor vs Rand that Rand was actually the one to kill him? Think Brandom commented on it during his reread, but I can't remember the exact conclusion of the discussion.

 

As for Sammael, Rand was about to blast him with Balefire when Liah distracted Rand and when he looked back to kill Sammael he was gone. Mashadar basically stole the kill :p

Rahvin was fleeing Rand, only his knowledge of TAR gave him an advantage, but yes Nynaeve helped, don't forget though that both her and Moghedien would've been dead had Rand not killed Rahvin.

[Suttree]

Wasn't the conclusion regarding Aginor vs Rand that Rand was actually the one to kill him? Think Brandom commented on it during his reread, but I can't remember the exact conclusion of the discussion.

 

As for Sammael, Rand was about to blast him with Balefire when Liah distracted Rand and when he looked back to kill Sammael he was gone. Mashadar basically stole the kill :p

Rahvin was fleeing Rand, only his knowledge of TAR gave him an advantage, but yes Nynaeve helped, don't forget though that both her and Moghedien would've been dead had Rand not killed Rahvin.

 

Per RJ Aginor burned himself out by drawing too deeply on the Eye.

 

Also when Masahadar killed Sammael it was basically because Liah distracted him. Sammael looked up at her screaming which allowed Mashadar to creep up on him.

[Durinax]

as for dreaming, egwene may be near the top but I dont think she ranks even closely with teh WO's. (although since there are a handful of them and a shitload of useless AS now in the mix it raises her standings vastly)

 

Weren't you reading? Amys has said that Egwene is potentially far more powerful than any of the Wise Ones.

I was and from your quote I read the word 'potentially' implying she does not have that skill as of yet. Egwene even thinks to herself that the WO's where much more effective then the AS (and egwene would group herself as AS) especially the non channelling ones

[XXX]

If Egwene and Rand go at it face to face using the OP, who exactly do you think will win? She won't last a minute.

 

My money goes to Rand. *Shrugs*. It depends on how they fight each other though. I wouldn't entirely rule Egwene out.

 

Unless she gets him into TAR..she will be burned to a crisp instantly..absolutely nothing she can do.

 

Except Ishy none of the Forsaken even dared to fight Rand face to face once he learnt to channel..they run.

[XXX]

Wasn't the conclusion regarding Aginor vs Rand that Rand was actually the one to kill him? Think Brandom commented on it during his reread, but I can't remember the exact conclusion of the discussion.

 

As for Sammael, Rand was about to blast him with Balefire when Liah distracted Rand and when he looked back to kill Sammael he was gone. Mashadar basically stole the kill :p

Rahvin was fleeing Rand, only his knowledge of TAR gave him an advantage, but yes Nynaeve helped, don't forget though that both her and Moghedien would've been dead had Rand not killed Rahvin.

 

Per RJ Aginor burned himself out by drawing too deeply on the Eye.

 

Also when Masahadar killed Sammael it was basically because Liah distracted him. Sammael looked up at her screaming which allowed Mashadar to creep up on him.

 

If there was no Liah then Sammael was dead in the first place. Rand was about to balefire him.