Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[Ala Rubra]

If I remember right Ny was the one who actually balefired the fade but anyway yipeee..one fade in 13 books!!

 

I'm sure Egwene must have killed some Trollocs or Dragkhar while in the Waste.

[WhiskyJack]

All of them have one way or the other done more against the Shadow than Egwene either by helping Rand to prepare the armies to fight the LB or fighting the shadow themselves.

 

All Egwene has done which can be termed as fighting the shadow in any way is beat Messana and execute black sisters based of the list give to her by Verin..has she even killed a Trolloc, I don't remember.

 

 

She has killed a Fade. Have fun.

 

 

If I remember right Ny was the one who actually balefired the fade but anyway yipeee..one fade in 13 books!!

 

 

Your memory is partially wrong. There were 3 fades. Each took a shot (Elayne was the third person).

[Manscher]

Actually, he remember quite right regarding those fades. Elayne compresses them together in a ball, Egwene sets fire to them and Nynaeve destroys them all with Balefire.

[WhiskyJack]

Actually, he remember quite right regarding those fades. Elayne compresses them together in a ball, Egwene sets fire to them and Nynaeve destroys them all with Balefire.

 

 

Makes sense. Fire afterall doesn't kill Fade...

[Elan Tedronai]

lews therin has had many failures as successes in AOL.

 

Came up with a hare brained plan that led to breaking of the world and subsequent killing of his own kin. The highly intellectua genious also wanted the women to join him as well and if latra agreed to it then we would had a gameover situation. The tamyrlin surrounded by powerful aes sedai both male and female could not think of a better plan. I mean it's obvious to me as a reader that once the bore was drilled, the only thing that was keeping it open was the dark one who would need to be pushed back in order for the pattern to heal itself properly. Didnt it occur to him that coming into direct contact with shaitan would lead to pretty bad consequences?

 

poor general. Lost plenty of territory to his former generals sammael and demandred. SO highly overrated when it comes to battle tactics. Infact, his poor tenure as general has led to choedan kal keys being lost in shadow territory. This in addition to further losess in the last few years of the war has led to the final desperate act that led to strike at shayol ghul.

 

So his record is not so clean.

[WhiskyJack]

^^Give him some credit. For all his fault, he gave world a second chance. What would have happened if he had not acted on his hair brained plan?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Since nobody came up with anything better and the plan actually worked, I have to say it was brilliant. Say what you will, I don't know what you would do if some evil deity just emerged from the hole in the sky

 

We know that the Breaking was terrible, but it was better than having the DO increasing his direct power over the world. We know that whole cities were balefired and pattern itself close to unraveling.

 

Latra's plan? That was a recipe for disaster. I've just had this thought - am I the only one who find it funny that Latra's plan was so "masculine" in steretypical way? Build some huuuge weapon and kaboom!Blast the Dark One! If brute power isn't working, what do we need? Sure - more brute power!

 

Yes, I remember that she wanted to somehow build some kind of barrier around the DO and only then think really fast about something better - but that doesn't sound very smart either.

[Elan Tedronai]

Since nobody came up with anything better and the plan actually worked, I have to say it was brilliant. Say what you will, I don't know what you would do if some evil deity just emerged from the hole in the sky

 

We know that the Breaking was terrible, but it was better than having the DO increasing his direct power over the world. We know that whole cities were balefired and pattern itself close to unraveling.

 

Latra's plan? That was a recipe for disaster. I've just had this thought - am I the only one who find it funny that Latra's plan was so "masculine" in steretypical way? Build some huuuge weapon and kaboom!Blast the Dark One! If brute power isn't working, what do we need? Sure - more brute power!

 

Yes, I remember that she wanted to somehow build some kind of barrier around the DO and only then think really fast about something better - but that doesn't sound very smart either.

 

 

latra's plan was a temporary plan. A way of first

securing the territory lost to the shadow, freeing the cities under the command of the shadow. more importantly a barrier to stop the dark's ones influence. while waiting for a sensible plan to seal the bore. There is no way the kal could have been used against the dark one. You cant kill shaitan but you can decrease his influence.

 

the aes sedai all knew that they had to seal the bore properly. The problem was only the genious of AOL had a plan and the plan was a flawed one. The problem was the aes sedai had no time for some reason to forumulate another plan whilst getting their ass kicked by demandred and sammael. that's where the kals come into play. In the end when the mighty weapon was lost the aes sedai had nothing to stop the advance of the shadow and LTT did what he did. Would LTT gone ahead if he knew the outcome of it all? who knows? But he did what he did. In desperation

 

 

The problem here is LTT is not without failures. He made mistakes. He misunderstood the nature of the bore. Perhaps if he used a bit of his so called cunning prowess and pumped lanfear for some information on the nature of bore, then there would have been another outcome. He had 100 years to do so.

[Asbrodean]

i thought that Taim and Egwene would be equals considering that they both goven the two groups of channelers

[XXX]

Only LTT had a plan..he waited for Latra's "brilliant" plan to work..unfortunately they made the weapons then promptly lost it to areas under the shadow now risking the turning of the CK's on the light. Some plan indeed. It was ONLY then that LTT made his move and despite great losses saved the world.

 

Anyway that has nothing to do with the fact that Egwene would get vaporized if she dared to fight the Dragon on her own.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

The problem here is LTT is not without failures. He made mistakes. He misunderstood the nature of the bore. Perhaps if he used a bit of his so called cunning prowess and pumped lanfear for some information on the nature of bore, then there would have been another outcome. He had 100 years to do so.

 

 

I am not sure but when bore was actually created no one knew about it. Realization that there is such a thing as DO came quite late. While bore was open for 100 years in AoL, actual War of Shadow lasted only 10 years. Still he had like a decade..Funny thing is that Randlanders would have done exactly the same thing if their age was before AoL.

[XXX]

If I remember right Ny was the one who actually balefired the fade but anyway yipeee..one fade in 13 books!!

 

I'm sure Egwene must have killed some Trollocs or Dragkhar while in the Waste.

 

Nope..most of her time was spent getting spanked by the Aiel.

 

Egwene without doubt got the maximum no of beatings without actually getting into real fights among all characters in the series.

[Majsju]

The Dragon is NOT the champion of the light in every age.

 

And how would you know, pray?

 

Because RJ says so

 

 

Q: "Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

 

 

Perhaps you should look again what that quote actually say, and as a consequence, what it does not say.

 

It is pretty clear what the quote says..there is a champion of the light in every age but the dragon soul is not the champion of the light in every age.

 

Where in RJs quote here does it say that there is a champion of the light in every Age?

 

And if that were to be the case, it makes Rand even less special. Not only can the world handle the CotL turning to the Shadow, but apparently the Wheel can toss in any old soul it has lying around to do the job.

[David Selig]

I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

Where in RJs quote here does it say that there is a champion of the light in every Age?

 

And if that were to be the case, it makes Rand even less special. Not only can the world handle the CotL turning to the Shadow, but apparently the Wheel can toss in any old soul it has lying around to do the job.

 

Dragon can replaced by wheel but it will be almost impossible to find another person just like him. Perhaps a duo of Artur Hawkwing and a very powerful channeler.

[XXX]

 

 

Where in RJs quote here does it say that there is a champion of the light in every Age?

 

And if that were to be the case, it makes Rand even less special. Not only can the world handle the CotL turning to the Shadow, but apparently the Wheel can toss in any old soul it has lying around to do the job.

 

 

It makes sense that this age and the previous one needed the most powerful channeler to be the COT...on the light side that is only one soul,the Dragon.

 

So there is no replacement for the current or previous age.

[XXX]

I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

[WhiskyJack]

I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

 

 

 

Good way to defend Rand's stupidity Use the prophecy. Did prophecy also say that children will try to kill him?

 

P.S: What prophecy says that he has to be free?

[WhiskyJack]

 

 

Where in RJs quote here does it say that there is a champion of the light in every Age?

 

And if that were to be the case, it makes Rand even less special. Not only can the world handle the CotL turning to the Shadow, but apparently the Wheel can toss in any old soul it has lying around to do the job.

 

 

It makes sense that this age and the previous one needed the most powerful channeler to be the COT...on the light side that is only one soul,the Dragon.

 

So there is no replacement for the current or previous age.

 

Why exactly it has to be the most powerful channeler?

[Majsju]

Where in RJs quote here does it say that there is a champion of the light in every Age?

 

And if that were to be the case, it makes Rand even less special. Not only can the world handle the CotL turning to the Shadow, but apparently the Wheel can toss in any old soul it has lying around to do the job.

 

 

It makes sense that this age and the previous one needed the most powerful channeler to be the COT...on the light side that is only one soul,the Dragon.

 

So there is no replacement for the current or previous age.

 

Right, because at the end of the day it will come down to the amount of power one can draw. Which is of course why Rand saves the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and has absolutely no plans to destroy it. Oh, wait a minute...

[Puny]

I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

 

 

 

Good way to defend Rand's stupidity Use the prophecy. Did prophecy also say that children will try to kill him?

 

P.S: What prophecy says that he has to be free?

I think it´s unfair to claim it´s because of Rand´s stupidity. He was in a very dark place, (to be darker after the kidnapping). He was overly confident, arrogant and I´m sure he thought that only full Aes Sedai was a threat to him. He saw the AS-face he saw. What he didn´t reflect on was that the servants (and servants they appaeared to be caring chests, wearing ugly clothes...) would be newly hatched AS. I think said reasons are why he didn´t expect them to try and kidnap him, and besides... he thought he had "friends" in the Tower.

 

Majsju & XXX47 : Oh and I don´t think that the CotL always needs to be the most powerful...

 

Oh and in the quote it doesn´t say that there is a CotL in every Age. It says that the DragonSoul is born in other Ages that doesn´t herald an end to an Age. When it is born in those kind of Ages it is a normal soul without the Dragon qualities... I´m sure there is a thread somewhere about CoL and Dragon being the same thing or not. Read it

[Guest PiotrekS]

Since nobody came up with anything better and the plan actually worked, I have to say it was brilliant. Say what you will, I don't know what you would do if some evil deity just emerged from the hole in the sky

 

We know that the Breaking was terrible, but it was better than having the DO increasing his direct power over the world. We know that whole cities were balefired and pattern itself close to unraveling.

 

Latra's plan? That was a recipe for disaster. I've just had this thought - am I the only one who find it funny that Latra's plan was so "masculine" in steretypical way? Build some huuuge weapon and kaboom!Blast the Dark One! If brute power isn't working, what do we need? Sure - more brute power!

 

Yes, I remember that she wanted to somehow build some kind of barrier around the DO and only then think really fast about something better - but that doesn't sound very smart either.

 

 

latra's plan was a temporary plan. A way of first

securing the territory lost to the shadow, freeing the cities under the command of the shadow. more importantly a barrier to stop the dark's ones influence. while waiting for a sensible plan to seal the bore. There is no way the kal could have been used against the dark one. You cant kill shaitan but you can decrease his influence.

 

the aes sedai all knew that they had to seal the bore properly. The problem was only the genious of AOL had a plan and the plan was a flawed one. The problem was the aes sedai had no time for some reason to forumulate another plan whilst getting their ass kicked by demandred and sammael. that's where the kals come into play. In the end when the mighty weapon was lost the aes sedai had nothing to stop the advance of the shadow and LTT did what he did. Would LTT gone ahead if he knew the outcome of it all? who knows? But he did what he did. In desperation

 

 

The problem here is LTT is not without failures. He made mistakes. He misunderstood the nature of the bore. Perhaps if he used a bit of his so called cunning prowess and pumped lanfear for some information on the nature of bore, then there would have been another outcome. He had 100 years to do so.

 

At best. Latra's plan suffered from the same problem LTT's did - if she wanted to erect a One Power barrier around Shayol Ghul, then she would also touch the One Power to the DO (or the DO would touch the barrier trying to break free). How else would the barrier hold him?

 

And if the amount of One Power was huge (because Choeden Kals would be used), then the consequences could be much worse than the Breaking.

[David Selig]

I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

Except that he actually suspected it - why else did he order only 3 of them could come to meet him at once? Not only he didn't trust Elaida at all, but he also knew that the Black Ajah exists.

[XXX]

 

Right, because at the end of the day it will come down to the amount of power one can draw. Which is of course why Rand saves the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and has absolutely no plans to destroy it. Oh, wait a minute...

 

 

Er...what has the COL to do with the sa'angreal..in an age of channelers the COL is the most powerful channeler.

 

The concept of the wheel,ages and a champion is not something RJ made up. It is the central concept in a no of eastern religions and all the ages end always with someone sent by God/Creator to fight the good fight which causes widespread destruction but clears the rubble to start the next age. No age finishes just like that without a COL.Oh..and the COL has always been either a powerful warrior or a powerful spiritual being someone who would be important in that age. As RJ took this concept from the eastern religions then it is not a stretch to say that in an age of people using the OP, the COL will be the person who is the strongest in the OP.

 

What has this to do with the fact the Egwene is nothing compared to the Dragon?

[XXX]

 

 

 

 

P.S: What prophecy says that he has to be free?

 

Read the chapter were Egwene serves Elaida in her room.