Should Elayne blame Egwene?

[randsc]

No one has said he will do it alone, just that the armies are an irrelevancy. LTT didn't bring armies, either.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Not to step into anything, but LTT's posse was the hundo companianos (113) plus about 10k troopers.

 

..Think that's from TS@SG?

[MasterAblar]

Not to step into anything, but LTT's posse was the hundo companianos (113) plus about 10k troopers.

 

..Think that's from TS@SG?

 

True, but I think that back then 10k was more or less considered a personal guard, not an actual army.

[Himiko]

Tower Law in theory gives the Amyrlin almost unlimited power over the Aes Sedai and openly defying her orders is considered treason. Though in practice the situation is much different and the custom gives the Aes Sedai plenty of ways to evade following the orders of the Amyrlin. And a monarch Aes Sedai would be considered an unique case probably - Elayne at least thinks so.

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself. "

 

OK, I'm about to be a bit off-topic, but I really don't see how Andor isn't, in some way, subject to the White Tower if their Queen is. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there was at least one mention where either Morgase or Gareth Bryne, or both, had some sort of plan that the WT disagreed with, and Elaida and Siuan ended up half ordering them out of it- I could be remembering wrong, someone please enlighten me if they have any idea what I'm talking about XD But either way, Morgase wasn't even part of the Tower at this point. If Elayne sees a course of action that will benefit Andor, but harm/ inconvenience/ whatever, the White Tower, then surely if she goes ahead and does it anyway, especially if Egwene/ whoever is Amyrlin at that point, tells her to do otherwise, then she is breaking a law/ rule/ custom of Aes Sedai, and if she doesn't follow the course of action, she will be putting the White Tower ahead of Andor, and thus, in a way, making Andor subject to the rule of the White Tower. Now, don't get me wrong, it may well be that such a situation never arises, and it may well be that the Amyrlin will avoid putting Elayne in any such awkward position due to not wanting to lose a very powerful AS from the ranks.

 

Mind you, that's more a beef with the Andoran policy of the Daughter-Heir training in the White Tower, as this kind of situation has always been a possibility if the girl had enough power and dedication to rise to the rank of AS. But I really think that perhaps Elayne needs to consider this kind of situation, as it seems simplistic to think that she can let herself be subject to Aes Sedai laws but be able to keep her country free of them. Especially since, as we have been discussing in this very thread, the buck stops with the ruler of a country, if Andor does anything against the interests of the White Tower, and Elayne is not putting a stop to it, then she is, in some way, skirting around the law or customs of the AS. Which apparently she doesn't intend to do...

 

Also, having quite enjoyed Elayne in earlier books, it would be nice to see her having to face this issue and make a decision between her country and the White Tower in AMoL, as I've found her quite dull in the last few books.

[Suttree]

No one has said he will do it alone, just that the armies are an irrelevancy. LTT didn't bring armies, either.

 

 

Uhmm yes he did, unless you aren't counting all those shock troops that never made it back.

[randsc]

That's a raiding party, not an army. He hardly needs all of the armies of the world gathered at the FoM to repeat that. He could come up with that number of Aeil in an hour, just as he tell Itarulde.

 

The real battle is at Mount Doom, not the Black Gate.

[Suttree]

That's a raiding party, not an army. He hardly needs all of the armies of the world gathered at the FoM to repeat that. He could come up with that number of Aeil in an hour, just as he tell Itarulde.

 

The real battle is at Mount Doom, not the Black Gate.

 

Oh I agree but in relation to LTT he brought 10,000 troops. Call it what you will but he needed the help of an army.

[MasterAblar]

That's a raiding party, not an army. He hardly needs all of the armies of the world gathered at the FoM to repeat that. He could come up with that number of Aeil in an hour, just as he tell Itarulde.

 

The real battle is at Mount Doom, not the Black Gate.

 

Oh I agree but in relation to LTT he brought 10,000 troops. Call it what you will but he needed the help of an army.

 

10k was more of a personal guard by AoL standards.

[Dagon Thyne]

It's actually very simple. She wants to scare Rand into changing his mind about breaking the seals. She does not understand that it is part of the prophesy, and part of his duty to free the Dark One, so that he can fight him, though Rand seems to think it is ust to reseal him again, but even then the Dark One could simply taint Saidin again, and nothing would have been changed. Anyway, Egwene needs all of the Armies of the Westlands in order to make this work. She thinks that Rand will listen to her if every majory army, Andor, Tear, Illian, Tar Valon, and Cairhien, sides with the White Tower, than logically, Rand would join up, and change his plans, since he needs all of those nations in order to defeat the Shadow. But something tells me that everyone will come around to Rand's side with from his influence as a Ta'veren.

[Dagon Thyne]

It's actually very simple. Egwene wants to scare Rand into changing his mind about breaking the seals, and Elayne agrees with her. They do not understand that it is part of the prophesy, and part of his duty to free the Dark One, so that he can fight him, though Rand seems to think it is ust to reseal him again, but even then the Dark One could simply taint Saidin again, and nothing would have been changed. Anyway, Egwene needs all of the Armies of the Westlands in order to make this work. She thinks that Rand will listen to her if every majory army, Andor, Tear, Illian, Tar Valon, and Cairhien, sides with the White Tower, than logically, Rand would join up, and change his plans, since he needs all of those nations in order to defeat the Shadow. But something tells me that everyone will come around to Rand's side with from his influence as a Ta'veren.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Dagon Thyne

[XXX]

That's a raiding party, not an army. He hardly needs all of the armies of the world gathered at the FoM to repeat that. He could come up with that number of Aeil in an hour, just as he tell Itarulde.

 

The real battle is at Mount Doom, not the Black Gate.

 

Oh I agree but in relation to LTT he brought 10,000 troops. Call it what you will but he needed the help of an army.

 

 

I think Rand can get 10,000 troops to follow him even if he flips Egwene and everyone else at FoM the birdie.

 

Egwene has no cards to play..if the Dragon wants,he will break the seals. Nothing she can do. And whatever he does she and her cronies will fight or they will end up in Trolloc cookpots.

[Durinax]

rand appointed Darlin as his steward, Darlin was elected King though Rand just didnt oppose it, thus Darlin is the king of Tairen initiative not by apppointment.

So by extention of what you said should egwene not get a free pass for anythign elayne might do of her on initiative? elayne is egwenes subordinate

 

Darlin swore fealty to Rand, was appointed as Steward and then chosen as King. The fealty part still applies, Steward or King. Egwene herself acknowledges this when she references his loyalty to the man he was sworn to.

 

Elayne, on the other hand, has never sworn any oaths of fealty to the Amyrlin. In fact, Egwene goes on at some length about how wrong it would be of Elaida to have Aes Sedai do just that. Custom might urge Elayne to follow Egwene's lead but there is no legal binding upon her that I'm aware of.

Tower Law in theory gives the Amyrlin almost unlimited power over the Aes Sedai and openly defying her orders is considered treason. Though in practice the situation is much different and the custom gives the Aes Sedai plenty of ways to evade following the orders of the Amyrlin. And a monarch Aes Sedai would be considered an unique case probably - Elayne at least thinks so.

PoD, Ch. 20

 

Necessary and right, though; when she sat on the Lion Throne, she would still be Aes Sedai, and subject to the laws and rules and customs of Aes Sedai. Not for Andor — she would not give her land to the White Tower — but for herself. "

actually Elayne has to follow egwenes orders to the letter or else it could be seen as favouritism and Egwene could slam down on her like she did to nyn during her testing (by making it excessively hard)

[bsmnt23]

I think we're all going to have to be prepared for a bittersweet ending to the LB. It's pretty much a given the Light will triumph, but a lot that the 3rd age has wrought will be the price. Caemlyn and Tar Valon are both regarded as neck-and-neck the most beautiful city in the world at that point, certainly in Randland. They both seem to allude to Authorian legend Camelot and Avalon which both were lost to myth and legend as the world moved on. The how and the why are almost irrelevent as the inevetability of destruction in the LB is iminent anyway. At least Elayne was able to get the main fighting force out of the city to mobilize at the FoM she can march in the van as they are moved via gateway to wherever the actual martial force-on-force LB will take place (likely with Lan at the Pass). With Matt and the Band at Caemlyn he can affect at least a partial victory when he retrieves the Dragons and saves the rest of the civilian population.

[Mr Ares]

He does not lose..he does not need them to fight the battle at SG. He does not need armies for that. He will do his part with a small no of people he trusts. They will go with him regardless of whether he breaks the seals or not. Egwene is not a part of that. He does not even consider her along with Ny as someone to use Callander with him.

 

The armies have to fight to save their homes... he says it again and again. He can organize them but he cannot fight for them. If they don't fight Trollocs will eat them!!

 

 

So is Rand going to destroy those hordes of Shadowspawn by himself? As well as fight the remaining Forsaken?

 

Did Lews Therin Telamon "win" the War of Power by himself? He wasn't even able to seal the Dark One's prison by himself.

 

Rand is not the Creator. He is not a god. He is needed to win but he also needs others to win. To think anything else is illogical.

I think you've said everything I was going to in response to this point: Rand, with just a handful of people at his side, would not stand much of a chance against the entire armies of the Shadow, all the Shadowspawn, Darkfriends, Dreadlords and Chosen they have. Even if the Light's armies only serve as a distraction, drawing the Shadow away so Rand can do his job, they are still an important part of things.

 

 

OK, I'm about to be a bit off-topic, but I really don't see how Andor isn't, in some way, subject to the White Tower if their Queen is. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there was at least one mention where either Morgase or Gareth Bryne, or both, had some sort of plan that the WT disagreed with, and Elaida and Siuan ended up half ordering them out of it- I could be remembering wrong, someone please enlighten me if they have any idea what I'm talking about XD

At a guess, the incident to which you refer is where Bryne wanted to take action against murandian border raiders, and Siuan slapped him down. That's the best fit that springs to mind. Of course, Siuan was in no position to order Bryne if Morgase wasn't willing to go along with things. I don't remember if Morgase was in on things or was just taking the Amyrlin's advice, but either way she didn't have to obey the Amyrlin.

But either way, Morgase wasn't even part of the Tower at this point. If Elayne sees a course of action that will benefit Andor, but harm/ inconvenience/ whatever, the White Tower, then surely if she goes ahead and does it anyway, especially if Egwene/ whoever is Amyrlin at that point, tells her to do otherwise, then she is breaking a law/ rule/ custom of Aes Sedai, and if she doesn't follow the course of action, she will be putting the White Tower ahead of Andor, and thus, in a way, making Andor subject to the rule of the White Tower. Now, don't get me wrong, it may well be that such a situation never arises, and it may well be that the Amyrlin will avoid putting Elayne in any such awkward position due to not wanting to lose a very powerful AS from the ranks.

There are ways around it. If Elayne decides against following a course of action because it will harm Andor, she might be going against Tower law or custom, in which case she might well ask for a penance. So she suffers, but her country doesn't. Also, she can creatively interpret orders so as to minimise harm/maximise gain to Andor, while at the same time benefiting the WT if possible. A difficult line to walk, perhaps, but not impossible.

 

Also, having quite enjoyed Elayne in earlier books, it would be nice to see her having to face this issue and make a decision between her country and the White Tower in AMoL, as I've found her quite dull in the last few books.

I do agree that it would be interesting to see this in practice.

[Elan Tedronai]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

[Dagon Thyne]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

 

Taim was always a Dark Friend and the people he personally "Trained" were too.

 

The reason that they seemed to be coming along so quickly in therir training is because they already knew what to do. Taim brought them into the Black Tower in order to be able to gather his forces right under the Dragon's nose and prepare for the Last Battle where they would serve as Dreadlords.

[Durinax]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

 

Taim was always a Dark Friend and the people he personally "Trained" were too.

 

The reason that they seemed to be coming along so quickly in therir training is because they already knew what to do. Taim brought them into the Black Tower in order to be able to gather his forces right under the Dragon's nose and prepare for the Last Battle where they would serve as Dreadlords.

I dont think that taim was always one, but rather he turned because he didnt want to be second best to rand. but this is off topic

[MasterAblar]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

Have you met XXX47? You two should get along well.

[MasterAblar]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

 

Taim was always a Dark Friend and the people he personally "Trained" were too.

 

The reason that they seemed to be coming along so quickly in therir training is because they already knew what to do. Taim brought them into the Black Tower in order to be able to gather his forces right under the Dragon's nose and prepare for the Last Battle where they would serve as Dreadlords.

I dont think that taim was always one, but rather he turned because he didnt want to be second best to rand. but this is off topic

 

So you think he turned after he started working with Rand?

[XXX]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

 

The BT is way behind the nest the WT was for dark friends for most of 3000 years.

[Levek]

No one is to blame. It is a war and the shadow slipped one in. There will be loses this was just the first strike. people in this thread it seems thinks this is just a meeting. Don't forget it is Rand pulling the strings this time not Egwene. This is what he wanted for two reasons one the dragons peace and second thsi will be the staging point to kick off the groud battles of TG. Egwene saved him a great deal of time that he does not have by getting most of the worlds forces gathered here. Thats what he wanted....

 

It is not like after the meeting is over everyone is just going to return to their kingdoms... So how could you blame Elayne for marching her forces. It is the last battle Rand is going to break the seals the following day... Caemlyn is nothing compared to the fight that will determen the outcome of the world.

 

Bottom line Elayne knows and Egwene knows about Rands plans for breaking the seals. So they know that TG is going to start soon. The shadow got a suprize attack off and it worked well for them so far. You can't blame Elayne or Egwene for marching troops to try to change Rands mind. When they think with his decsion rests the fate of the world. That is by far more important than any one city.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Levek

[Kahsm]

unfortunately andor will be destroyed not by the trollocs but by the incompetence of the lord dragon who allowed the rotting sickness that has spread to the black tower. A sickness that resulted in AS and AM being turned to the shadow.

 

Have you met XXX47? You two should get along well.

 

XXX47 hates Aes Sedai. Elan Tedronai Hates Rand for causing every problem at the BT through his negligence.

They're a little different. But between the two, our two rivers heroes are not doing a very good job of things =)

[SuperFade]

Perhaps if we put XXX47 and Elan Tedronai in a topic together and lock it, their opposing viewpoints will annihilate each other a la the Cleansing and leave us with one pure, unbiased opinion on the WoT world? Someone call Luckers, I think it's worth a try. :3

[TheAngryDruid]

For me, the idea that both the Dragon and the Tower left the Borderlands to dangle is one of the single most unforgivable, and unbelievable, things in the story thus far. Especially considering:

 

1) Egwene and Rand are both close to Nynaeve, and Lan.

2) They both regret the Tower not acting soon enough to save Malkier (and so did Moiraine and possible Siuan by the sound of things)

3) Rand intervenes to save Maradon, and says he couldn't let the DO take it after all they did to hold it. Does he think the people of Arafel, Kandor, and Shienar will be any less valiant?

4) Rand vows to Nynaeve, in full Budda Rand, that we won't let Lan down. And then he does so for the rest of the Borderlands. (not to mention not saving the Sea Folk).

 

Really, Egwene wrote some letters and hatched her plots with the Hall and dealt with the murders and Messy. Not saying she had to go personally, but with Gateways, they should have been able to send help. She had both the Guard and the Rebel Army around. Even fearing another Seanchan attack, they should have been able to do something. Heck, Gateways in and out of Heeth tower sending in 5-10 linked sisters with angreal every so often should have been able to hold the Tower for a LONG time.

 

And Rand is even worse. At least Eggy has Forsaken in her midst, and fears another Seanchan attack, and is picking up the pieces. Rand does enough to account for about 5-6 days. The 3 days or so walking (no hurry there) to AS to talk to Egwene. A couple days in Tear to reunite with Tam, ID the DF's, mend with the Aiel and Caddy and send her on her mission. A couple more in Bandar Eban. A day in Maradon. A day to get the Borderland rulers. What did he DO for the rest of the month?

 

We'd better have some kind of plausible explanation.

 

Oops, sorry, this goes a bit afield.

 

No, Elayne shouldn't blame Egwene. It is her duty to protect Caemlyn. She should know better than to empty the city, especially when one can just hop back and get the troops anyway.

[Durinax]

For me, the idea that both the Dragon and the Tower left the Borderlands to dangle is one of the single most unforgivable, and unbelievable, things in the story thus far. Especially considering:

 

1) Egwene and Rand are both close to Nynaeve, and Lan.

2) They both regret the Tower not acting soon enough to save Malkier (and so did Moiraine and possible Siuan by the sound of things)

3) Rand intervenes to save Maradon, and says he couldn't let the DO take it after all they did to hold it. Does he think the people of Arafel, Kandor, and Shienar will be any less valiant?

4) Rand vows to Nynaeve, in full Budda Rand, that we won't let Lan down. And then he does so for the rest of the Borderlands. (not to mention not saving the Sea Folk).

 

Really, Egwene wrote some letters and hatched her plots with the Hall and dealt with the murders and Messy. Not saying she had to go personally, but with Gateways, they should have been able to send help. She had both the Guard and the Rebel Army around. Even fearing another Seanchan attack, they should have been able to do something. Heck, Gateways in and out of Heeth tower sending in 5-10 linked sisters with angreal every so often should have been able to hold the Tower for a LONG time.

 

And Rand is even worse. At least Eggy has Forsaken in her midst, and fears another Seanchan attack, and is picking up the pieces. Rand does enough to account for about 5-6 days. The 3 days or so walking (no hurry there) to AS to talk to Egwene. A couple days in Tear to reunite with Tam, ID the DF's, mend with the Aiel and Caddy and send her on her mission. A couple more in Bandar Eban. A day in Maradon. A day to get the Borderland rulers. What did he DO for the rest of the month?

 

We'd better have some kind of plausible explanation.

 

Oops, sorry, this goes a bit afield.

 

No, Elayne shouldn't blame Egwene. It is her duty to protect Caemlyn. She should know better than to empty the city, especially when one can just hop back and get the troops anyway.

rand could have done anything, from recontacting fortuona to stoppign the advancing trollocs, we are meant to be in the dark, if we knew anything the next book wouldnt be nearly so anticipated.