Why don't the women feel bad about killing women?

[Superhal]

Thought just popped into my head: why do none of the women in the story have it ingrained in their heads like all the men that women are not to be harmed? Also, why does this restriction not seem to apply to children? For example, it seems like 14 year-olds in Shinear are old enough to die as soldiers.

[Blackhoof]

well, women in this series have a universal superiority complex and bitchy attitude, so they will not be slowed by the thought of slapping down another women. the men, on the other hand, are arrogant in their own way, thinking that women need protection and are too weak to be killed with honour. women think no such thing and are therefore unburdened.

 

as to the children, the borderlands are a brutal place, and 14 is adulthood in some cultures, particularly martial ones. besides, when you are fighting trollocs, you need all the soldiers you can get.

[FarShainMael]

Possibly it's biological. Men have a biological need to protect childbearers because they can't be childbearers themselves; women may see other childbearers as competitors.

[Jimvzyl]

Please refer to Aviendah's meeting with the supergirls. If a maiden is not wedded to the spear she would not come at her with weapons, even if she was attacked, she would take wounds to avoid killing her. A man is a different story.

 

So i don't see that as 'none' in the story considering woman vs woman.

 

Remember, men are conveniently not child-bearers (less valuable)

On average they are physically stronger (more capable of bearing arms)

Male channelers broke the world, and have been ostracised by women since the breaking (dangerous)

 

If you are part of an ostracised sex for generations, it seems appropriate that in order to prove yourself, you use whatever manly benefit you have, to paint yourself in a better light. That, or you reject them utterly. It makes sense that they would want to prove to women their worth by protecting them.

 

Women on the other hand, have no qualms against other women, and it's a non-issue (Not including the Aiel)

 

 

A note on children. In an underdeveloped world, you grow up pretty fast. Life is not as long. Responsibilities and dangers are more dire. Makes sense that 14 - 16 year olds are considered men.

[WhiskyJack]

Women are mean. Not nice like us...;)

[Luckers]

You gotta remember its a social thing not present everywhere--Moiraine comments that the Two Rivers are like the Borderlands, implying that most other places don't have this belief.

[FarShainMael]

Women are mean. Not nice like us...;)

 

"Why can't a woman be more like a man.." laments Professor Higgins in My Fair Lady..

[randsc]

We don't know that women don't feel bad about killing other women.

 

Almost none of the characters are exactly introspective about their killings. Perrin, Mat and Egwene all have personal body counts in the dozens if not hundreds. You don't see any POVs where they get all broken up about it. The only major character we see agonizing about killing people is Rand, and the only major character we see who maintains a sense of horror about the idea of killing generally is Nynaeve.

 

Does that mean that the character never felt bad? That seems implausible to me. You take some kids from a corner of the world where a murder is a once-in-a-generation occurance, and they start chopping people up without a qualm? Unlikely. Jordan just chose not to write about their feelings.

[UGAShadow]

Probably the same reason the guys have no trouble killing men.

[anotherfingolfin]

because it has nothing to do with logic or rationalising via in-universe history. it is probably a function of the writer's values seeping in. a commonly held belief is that MEN shouldn't harm women, i haven't heard any take on women harming women. as in the real world, so in WoT.

[ConQuest]

because it has nothing to do with logic or rationalising via in-universe history. it is probably a function of the writer's values seeping in. a commonly held belief is that MEN shouldn't harm women, i haven't heard any take on women harming women. as in the real world, so in WoT.

 

Didn't you go to high school... women are nasty to each other, its like a battle ground there, with all the subtle spikes into looks and such, i like the battles guys have to fight, the order of things is how much money you have and if you can hold your own in a fight. other than that there aint much to a guys hierarchy, women have so many issues with them selves that its a destructiveness that happens thoughout all social groups.

[anotherfingolfin]

because it has nothing to do with logic or rationalising via in-universe history. it is probably a function of the writer's values seeping in. a commonly held belief is that MEN shouldn't harm women, i haven't heard any take on women harming women. as in the real world, so in WoT.

 

Didn't you go to high school... women are nasty to each other, its like a battle ground there, with all the subtle spikes into looks and such, i like the battles guys have to fight, the order of things is how much money you have and if you can hold your own in a fight. other than that there aint much to a guys hierarchy, women have so many issues with them selves that its a destructiveness that happens thoughout all social groups.

 

Maybe I was not clear enough. My point was that there is no commonly held value that I have encountered that women should not harm women, unlike the belief that a man should not harm a woman. Tthat was what i meant by "as in the real world, so in tWot". I have no idea how you interpreted that as something diametrically opposite to what I meant.

Incidentally, I have had basic education, though not at a stereotypical high-school straight out of an American movie.

[Stitch]

Biological Imperative versus Social Indoctrination huh? Nature versus Nurture, a long argument....

 

Given that there is a writing team, it is a given that the experiences and perceptions that they hold will in some way influence (though not necessarily colour) the work. As an author this is unavoidable and the most one can do is to ensure that you are aware of what influences you may be bringing to the page so that you can either intertwine the narrative with that message or else so that you can either minimise its impact or balance it with alternate concepts. Therefore I think that male (or male cyondoning) against violence females is something that the writing team has done their best to avoid or else portray as something 'evil' done by the 'bad guys'. Even with the Perrin/Faile relationship, where it seems she would not be particularly opposed to sorting things out with knives is settled with a raised voice (with a SINGLE exception which we are shown he greatly regrets despite continued violence and threats against him by her and her companions).

 

Personally I do not believe the biological imperative of protecting women could possibly apply unless the woman was closely related - such as a close friend, lover or family member... more likely given the context of the violence portrayed in the WoT and the relationship between those males and females is that it is a more general concept, gender based.

 

We are shown that there exist different perspectives about violence against women, Ebou Dar and Shienar are at one extreme where women are almost sacrosanct, then there are places like the Two Rivers where women are protected and valued (enough that they have some degree of control over the entire community through their circle), then you look at some of the other southern countries in Randland where with the exception of the nobility women hold little sway and crimes against women by males appear to be more common, the Aiel have women warriors who are considered little different from men and are seemingly bound by similar restrictions while the Sea Folk's position on male violence against women is unclear (we havent really seen them much, though we know female v female 'discipline' happens). I intentionally left out the Seanchan, from them we have seen little male violence against women (with the exception of one incident with dark friends which I am not sure is representative or not), indeed all indications is that there is a substantially lower amount of all crime under their rule.

 

When it comes to channellers we get into slightly more difficult waters for starters because there are fewer examples (these are the ones i could think of)

-Lanfear's attack (Rand and Moraine versus Lanfear) - we are shown that the hero would prefer death to harming a woman even an incredibly evil one intent on his life

-Dumai Wells (Aeil, Ashaman and Rand versus Aes Sedai and possibly some of the Shaido Wise Ones) was a battle - the Aeil seemed to have no major issue with killing those women that were channelling in the battle only that they were Aes Sedai (or possibly Wise Ones), the Ashaman didnt seem to have any problems even enjoying it while the position of Rand (despite his mistreatment) on the violence against those women is initially vengeful then regretful.

-Attack on Black Tower (Ashaman verus Aes Sedai) rand had gone out of his way to prevent any harm befalling the aes sedai who he knew intended to gentle the ashaman (something that would have eventually killed them (though he probably didnt know the aes sedai intended to do so then and there using deadly force, it would have been something that could have easily been guessed) there is minimal direct male violence against women but more a sort of slavery

-Capturing Semriherge (Rand and Ashaman versus Damane and Sem) doesnt kill them despite their attempt on his life independence

-Killing Semriherge (Rand versus black ajah and Sem) kills them in panic and rage has a psychotic break then becomes 'dark' rand - a 'bad guy'

-Intimidating Cadsuane (Rand v Cadsuane) as a bad guy threatens violence against her, seemingly with every intention of doing so

-Balefire Town (Rand versus town including many women) as a 'bad guy' kills everyone in the town including the women in a cold and calculated move

-Near Miss (Rand versus Fortuona and co) as a 'bad guy' intends to kill his opposition which include rulers and damane, however does not - the role that women play in this is unclear, likely it would have been a larger factor than the men however given his previously shown issues with killing women

 

Simply not enough information.... perhaps if there were more opportunities for clashes between ashaman and aes sedai I might make sense of it

[David Selig]

Because they are smarter than men. The men's refusal to harm women even as a last resort of self-defence is beyond idiotic, especially when one of those men happen to be the saviour of the world.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

(btw, in resp to a sentence up above, male channelers are ostracized by everyone, not just by women; eg. mat's reaction to learning rand can channel.)

[Jimvzyl]

(btw, in resp to a sentence up above, male channelers are ostracized by everyone, not just by women; eg. mat's reaction to learning rand can channel.)

 

Yes, but you must remember that extremists like those in the Red Ajah don't trust any men, refusing even to take warders.

This stems from society's general fear of the potential of men to be male channelers and the blame they received for being a part of the sex that broke the world.

[ShevyCelebrity]

Men don't feel bad about killing men, right? It's only natural women wouldn't feel about about killing women. That's just the way it is. :)

[Ala Rubra]

-Lanfear's attack (Rand and Moraine versus Lanfear) - we are shown that the hero would prefer death to harming a woman even an incredibly evil one intent on his life

 

Slight correction: Rand didn't have any problem with harming her (in particular he was trying to club her unconscious), he just couldn't bring himself to kill her.

[Entreri]

Even with the Aes Sedai, it is a medieval setting, essentially with a chivalrous code of honor. Men being stronger and faster, and women being the child bearers, they are protected in these societies. Anyway, it is almost exclusively the men who are violent/killers/serial killers/soldiers in the real world and lesser extent in Randland.

[Superhal]

Anyway, it is almost exclusively the men who are violent/killers/serial killers/soldiers in the real world and lesser extent in Randland.

 

As an aside, Elizabeth Bathory is in the Guiness Book of World Records as the most prolific serial killer of all time, the most prolific female serial killer, the most prolific in Europe, etc., with ~150 confirmed and up to 400 rumored kills.

 

In Randland, Lanfear, Sermi, and Graendal were expert torturers and killers. The BA have hundreds of murders in the books. The best normal human assassin for the DF's is female (appears in Tanchico with Jachim Carridin,) and Mat/Rand encounter several female assassins in the early books. Mat himself has killed at least 2 (in the barn with the smoking dagger and his Aiel girlfriend.)

 

It seems like whenever the BA appear, there's dead females all over the place, usually because they are rescuing another BA who is shielded by female AS/Kin. In another example, Egwene only refuses to kill an unconscious BA because she is unconscious, not because she is female, in the TAR battle at Tar Valon, and she also kills at least 40 damane/sul'dam along with unknown AS captives at the Battle of TV 2.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

the GB has her under "unbreakable records," and it says she "allegedly killed over 600 virgins." here's a fairly representative sample of what i found when i searched her -

 

"Despite the sensationalized arrest and numerous crimes allegedly committed by Elizabeth Bathory, it’s a little known fact that she was actually never even convicted of murder."

 

a lot of interesting stuff at elizabethbathory.com, but all kinds of stuff on all kinds of sites, some of them very silly vampire sites, and some of them less silly and qasi-historical. i'm not sure who's confirming those kills, but this is a woman who lived in the 1500's, and she's been mostly turned into a transylvanian vampire legend, so i don't think there's much confirmed about her.

 

on topic, i don't know why people in books kill other people without feeling bad. i think most real people would. excluding elizabeth bathory, and count dracula, and a few others on criminal minds and bones and stuff, and some real nutters. but regular people would feel bad for killing people, i think. i still feel bad about the deer i've hit, and the last mouse my kitties offed.

[Superhal]

www.crimelibrary.com has better, more researched articles. The one on EB said (from memory) that at her trial, they had 3 main witnesses: 3 servants who kidnapped and prepared the girls for EB to bathe in their blood, but their eye-witness testimony could only cover ~100 killings but they had knowledge of up to 500.

 

If you're into this stuff, you should read about Yoo Young-Chul at crimelibrary, and then watch the film "Chaser" (2008) based on his story.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i kind of like my horror in black and white, but if get any more bored, i'll check it out, thanks. i'm forced to watch the color stuff by children who teach me not to be a scaredy cat, and i, in turn, force them to watch the black and white, just so they know you can get really really scared without fake gore. it's win-win.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

To answer the original question, I expect RJ simply never thought of it.

[FarShainMael]

We don't know that women don't feel bad about killing other women.

 

Almost none of the characters are exactly introspective about their killings. Perrin, Mat and Egwene all have personal body counts in the dozens if not hundreds. You don't see any POVs where they get all broken up about it. The only major character we see agonizing about killing people is Rand, and the only major character we see who maintains a sense of horror about the idea of killing generally is Nynaeve.

 

Does that mean that the character never felt bad? That seems implausible to me. You take some kids from a corner of the world where a murder is a once-in-a-generation occurance, and they start chopping people up without a qualm? Unlikely. Jordan just chose not to write about their feelings.

 

In CoT29, when Mat ordered Harnan to shoot Renna dead, that certainly affected him. 'Something flickered and died inside him'.

 

Another thought...

 

'The female of the species is more deadly than the male.' - Kipling