Why are the Aes Sedai so poor in battle?

[OptimusPrime]

They received more knowledge and artifacts..angreal etc from the AoL than any other group of channellers.

 

Obviously that didnt include a plethora of destructive weaves, otherwise we wouldnt be having this conversation. The books have detailed fairly clearly that the Aes Sedai are afraid to test the artifacts because few to no people have the necesary Talents to make or read them.

 

Likely the 1000 years of unquestioned dominance in Randland just made them complacent that there was nothing else they need to know. Now they know better.

 

Likely the 1000 years of unquestioned dominance in Randland just made them more than merely an organization of channelers. The Oaths have more of an impact than you are giving them credit for. Its not about the restrictions of the Oaths, its about the development the Oaths encouraged. The Green Ajah has never been about blasting enemies.

 

Im not going out of my way to defend Aes Sedai in general, Im just saying, if you want to bitch about them, bitch about something the books havent already given valid explanations for. Otherwise we could open a thread for every Ajah and just moan about Aes Sedai in general.

[sleepinghour]

To me it was a success. I guess it depends on how many people you think are equal to one Forsaken. IMHO that number would be many since we are talking about beings that are thousands of years old, battle tested, knowledge of weaves/practices, etc. fighting against what could almost be considered children in comparison.

 

The fact that they could hang with them at all in only circles of 3 is almost astounding. Most of those present went from no combat experience to lightning hitting Cadsuane's shield from a Forsaken and then it was an explosive combat zone. I'd say they performed impressively.

I think Daigian performed impressively considering she herself had very little strength to add to the circle and had to fight while her own Warder was dying. But the Greens really didn't come off as the Battle Ajah, IMO. Elza only got lucky with Osan'gar, Merise mainly seemed occupied with petting Narishma, Beldeine was sulking about not being allowed to lead, and Erian not mentioned at all.

 

Also, keep in mind that nearly all of the Forsaken except Cyndane and maybe Demandred were reluctant to fight and risk themselves. Most of them were only there because they'd been ordered to go. I don't think it took much to drive them off when they knew the other side had Callandor at the clearing. Still, we only got to see how the battles started, so it's hard to say much about how either side performed.

[Suttree]

To me it was a success. I guess it depends on how many people you think are equal to one Forsaken. IMHO that number would be many since we are talking about beings that are thousands of years old, battle tested, knowledge of weaves/practices, etc. fighting against what could almost be considered children in comparison.

 

The fact that they could hang with them at all in only circles of 3 is almost astounding. Most of those present went from no combat experience to lightning hitting Cadsuane's shield from a Forsaken and then it was an explosive combat zone. I'd say they performed impressively.

I think Daigian performed impressively considering she herself had very little strength to add to the circle and had to fight while her own Warder was dying. But the Greens really didn't come off as the Battle Ajah, IMO. Elza only got lucky with Osan'gar, Merise mainly seemed occupied with petting Narishma, Beldeine was sulking about not being allowed to lead, and Erian not mentioned at all.

 

Also, keep in mind that nearly all of the Forsaken except Cyndane and maybe Demandred were reluctant to fight and risk themselves. Most of them were only there because they'd been ordered to go. I don't think it took much to drive them off when they knew the other side had Callandor at the clearing. Still, we only got to see how the battles started, so it's hard to say much about how either side performed.

 

Not really, it was a perfect opportunity for the shadow to deal a heavy blow to the light. Cadsuane put together a tactically sound defensive plan and held off the majority of the Forsaken. That is a solid performance however you look at it.

[MasterAblar]

To me it was a success. I guess it depends on how many people you think are equal to one Forsaken. IMHO that number would be many since we are talking about beings that are thousands of years old, battle tested, knowledge of weaves/practices, etc. fighting against what could almost be considered children in comparison.

 

The fact that they could hang with them at all in only circles of 3 is almost astounding. Most of those present went from no combat experience to lightning hitting Cadsuane's shield from a Forsaken and then it was an explosive combat zone. I'd say they performed impressively.

I think Daigian performed impressively considering she herself had very little strength to add to the circle and had to fight while her own Warder was dying. But the Greens really didn't come off as the Battle Ajah, IMO. Elza only got lucky with Osan'gar, Merise mainly seemed occupied with petting Narishma, Beldeine was sulking about not being allowed to lead, and Erian not mentioned at all.

 

Also, keep in mind that nearly all of the Forsaken except Cyndane and maybe Demandred were reluctant to fight and risk themselves. Most of them were only there because they'd been ordered to go. I don't think it took much to drive them off when they knew the other side had Callandor at the clearing. Still, we only got to see how the battles started, so it's hard to say much about how either side performed.

 

Not really, it was a perfect opportunity for the shadow to deal a heavy blow to the light. Cadsuane put together a tactically sound defensive plan and held off the majority of the Forsaken. That is a solid performance however you look at it.

 

I don't think it's possible to doubt Cadsuane's ability in battle. She's made it clear that she, at least, knows her stuff.

 

By the way I never understood why Daigian got control of the circle instead of Eben. It just doesn't make sense.

[sleepinghour]

Not really, it was a perfect opportunity for the shadow to deal a heavy blow to the light. Cadsuane put together a tactically sound defensive plan and held off the majority of the Forsaken. That is a solid performance however you look at it.

They had Callandor, a sa'angreal strong enough to level a city and shield all of the Forsaken. The Forsaken are notoriously selfish and were mainly interested in keeping their own hides intact. The exception was Lanfear, and she wasn't out to help the Shadow, she just wanted to take revenge on Rand.

 

I'm not doubting Cadsuane's skills, but HeronMarkedSoul was praising the Greens, and I didn't think they came off particularly well. Not to mention that if Elza hadn't been under Verin's Compulsion, it would have been a complete disaster for a Black sister to gain control of Callandor. That's one mistake Cadsuane did; she shouldn't have let anyone else except herself lead the circle with Callandor. It could have ruined everything.

[mb]

What about tornadoes, cyclones, snowstorms? Throw a tornado in a trolloc army and you're bound to take out hundreds if not thousands depending on the size of the weave.

Each 3 can have a chance of hitting also your own guys.

And each 3 may take a considerable amount of time to form; depending on the strength of the channeler. Snowstorms probably the least amount of time out of the 3.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

What about tornadoes, cyclones, snowstorms? Throw a tornado in a trolloc army and you're bound to take out hundreds if not thousands depending on the size of the weave.

 

Quite unfortunately you have actually quite underestimated the power in all three phenomena. It certainly would take far more than ONE Aes Sedai to summon down a tornado (have you actually seen them? They can cause MASSIVE destruction). I have my doubts that Rand (before his transformation) could actually have conjured and controlled more than one tornado without external aid.

 

Also, weather is a very tricky thing. By disrupting the weather patterns, you can cause numerous side effects, especially if you're doing something as large as a hurricane. Even a small storm at the wrong place at the wrong time can cause an ice age. I think the Aes Sedai have realized that and decided it was not in their best interests to experiment (surprise surprise) in case something went wrong and caused major chaos in the world.

[Superhal]

I would question the underlying assumption in the original post: Aes Sedai are weak in battle.

 

First, compared to damane, now we know that they are actually two linked channelers, which is stronger than an individual by at least 50%. Also, compared to Asha'man, it has been stated several times throughout the books that men are stronger in Fire and Earth, which are more useful in the "battle weaves" we've seen so far. Also, it is known that damane specifically train with Fire and Earth for combat. If you want to compare to Egwene at the battle of Tar Valon, Egwene was using a san'angreal, she was linked to two or more novices that were also very strong in the power, and she had damane training. It wasn't mentioned, but it is quite possible that Egwene only used 2 novices to Travel to the storeroom, and when she returned, took control of a full circle.

 

Secondly, we should consider the strengths of the current AS: healing and bonding. A Warder is probably equal to 10-20 trollocs, 20-50 "elite" soldiers, or 100 infantry. On the battlefield, it is conceivable that one AS could bond 20 or more Warders, effectively doubling or tripling the effectiveness of each one. Include healing, and a single bonded Warder would be the equivalent of maybe 300 or more soldiers.

 

Thirdly, we cannot assume that channeler vs channeler battles would be like Dumai Wells, with fire raining down while the ground heaved up. In the battle of Tar Valon, we saw that cutting weaves, shielding opposing channelers, and being unable to be shielded were vital parts of the battle. Being able to shield your army from other channelers could be invaluable. In most battles involving Rand, some form of OP shield was used when there were opposing channelers.

 

Overall, from just a handful of examples where AS were spanked doesn't mean the flashier channelers always win.

[Blackhoof]

frankly i think it ridiculous that the forsaken put up such a poor performance at the Cleansing. they lived during the age of legends, are immensely strong and know more weaves than any three aes sedai put together, and they got SPANKED.

 

it wasnt really even a battle, more of a forsaken-throws-the-odd-weave-here-and-there-and-then-hides-before-being-blasted-by-massive-fireball. they should have waltzed in, realised that this would be easy and stood there ground while relishing the challenge and doing a back-and forth but ultimately even battle with the threesome-circles. but no, instead of being badass they hid like children and got their butts handed to them.

[sleepinghour]

First, compared to damane, now we know that they are actually two linked channelers, which is stronger than an individual by at least 50%.

The sul'dam contribute nothing in terms of strength. A sul'dam-damane pair is still only as strong as the damane.

 

Secondly, we should consider the strengths of the current AS: healing and bonding. A Warder is probably equal to 10-20 trollocs, 20-50 "elite" soldiers, or 100 infantry. On the battlefield, it is conceivable that one AS could bond 20 or more Warders, effectively doubling or tripling the effectiveness of each one. Include healing, and a single bonded Warder would be the equivalent of maybe 300 or more soldiers.

I think you're overestimating Warders here. They're some of the best fighters around, sure, but still human. As good as 10-20 Trollocs? Not a chance. And even if an Aes Sedai could stand to have 20 people in her head, she'd turn into an emotional wreck as soon as one or more died. You'd risk incapacitating the Aes Sedai completely if too many of her Warders died at the same time.

[Gordar]

Let's say the US is the only power in the world. Nobody has the technology or the means to truly threaten the US, nor do they have the ability to develop the same weapons as the US. The US wouldn't spend much time developing new weapons, nor would they spend a lot of money on defense, just barely enough to keep the troops paid.

 

Keep in mind that there were only 13 forsaken and that the Aes Sedai believed they stilled most/all men that could channel. They also refused to believe that the black Ajah existed.

 

There was really no reason to be able to do more than throw a few fireballs. Trollocks & Myrdraal won't be able to defend themselves against that.

 

If they learn the weaves the former damane can teach them, they might become a formidable force.

[JKN-SW]

Let's say the US is the only power in the world. Nobody has the technology or the means to truly threaten the US, nor do they have the ability to develop the same weapons as the US. The US wouldn't spend much time developing new weapons, nor would they spend a lot of money on defense, just barely enough to keep the troops paid.

 

Keep in mind that there were only 13 forsaken and that the Aes Sedai believed they stilled most/all men that could channel. They also refused to believe that the black Ajah existed.

 

There was really no reason to be able to do more than throw a few fireballs. Trollocks & Myrdraal won't be able to defend themselves against that.

 

If they learn the weaves the former damane can teach them, they might become a formidable force.

There have been dreadlords in all the wars against the DO, inkluding the Trolloc war, so the AS should be well aware that they will have to face channelers in TG.

[HeronMarkedSoul]

I would question the underlying assumption in the original post: Aes Sedai are weak in battle.

 

First, compared to damane, now we know that they are actually two linked channelers, which is stronger than an individual by at least 50%. Also, compared to Asha'man, it has been stated several times throughout the books that men are stronger in Fire and Earth, which are more useful in the "battle weaves" we've seen so far. Also, it is known that damane specifically train with Fire and Earth for combat. If you want to compare to Egwene at the battle of Tar Valon, Egwene was using a san'angreal, she was linked to two or more novices that were also very strong in the power, and she had damane training. It wasn't mentioned, but it is quite possible that Egwene only used 2 novices to Travel to the storeroom, and when she returned, took control of a full circle.

 

Secondly, we should consider the strengths of the current AS: healing and bonding. A Warder is probably equal to 10-20 trollocs, 20-50 "elite" soldiers, or 100 infantry. On the battlefield, it is conceivable that one AS could bond 20 or more Warders, effectively doubling or tripling the effectiveness of each one. Include healing, and a single bonded Warder would be the equivalent of maybe 300 or more soldiers.

 

Thirdly, we cannot assume that channeler vs channeler battles would be like Dumai Wells, with fire raining down while the ground heaved up. In the battle of Tar Valon, we saw that cutting weaves, shielding opposing channelers, and being unable to be shielded were vital parts of the battle. Being able to shield your army from other channelers could be invaluable. In most battles involving Rand, some form of OP shield was used when there were opposing channelers.

 

Overall, from just a handful of examples where AS were spanked doesn't mean the flashier channelers always win.

 

You see me trying to take up the AS cause here, so I'm with you in theory. But there is no way on Earth a Warder is that strong, not even close. First off the physics of one man fighting many doesn't work, even if he was as strong as you assume, once you get hemmed in by bodies you are dead meat.

 

Second, if you recall Lan in NS (pre-bonding) killed 6 men who took him to the pinnacle of what he was capable of. I think of Lan as the paragon of what a Warder can be. So in essence after bonding is he worth 12-15 men? Maybe, if he has room to move, no one is using ranged weapons or channeling, and he has his AS there to heal him after (or during).

 

Finally, Warders like everyone else have their levels of effectiveness due to age, training, and experience. So there are many variables, but when all is said and done (and I hate to say this) a pimply faced kid training at the BT for a few months could kill even the hardest Warder in a heartbeat.

[XXX]

Let's say the US is the only power in the world. Nobody has the technology or the means to truly threaten the US, nor do they have the ability to develop the same weapons as the US. The US wouldn't spend much time developing new weapons, nor would they spend a lot of money on defense, just barely enough to keep the troops paid.

 

Keep in mind that there were only 13 forsaken and that the Aes Sedai believed they stilled most/all men that could channel. They also refused to believe that the black Ajah existed.

 

There was really no reason to be able to do more than throw a few fireballs. Trollocks & Myrdraal won't be able to defend themselves against that.

 

If they learn the weaves the former damane can teach them, they might become a formidable force.

 

 

They kept their power by appearances and leaned on the fear the common people had about the OP. When they started meeting people who were not cowed by "it is dangerous to anger an AS" line their whole flimsy facade came crashing down around them.

[Suttree]

Let's say the US is the only power in the world. Nobody has the technology or the means to truly threaten the US, nor do they have the ability to develop the same weapons as the US. The US wouldn't spend much time developing new weapons, nor would they spend a lot of money on defense, just barely enough to keep the troops paid.

 

Keep in mind that there were only 13 forsaken and that the Aes Sedai believed they stilled most/all men that could channel. They also refused to believe that the black Ajah existed.

 

There was really no reason to be able to do more than throw a few fireballs. Trollocks & Myrdraal won't be able to defend themselves against that.

 

If they learn the weaves the former damane can teach them, they might become a formidable force.

There have been dreadlords in all the wars against the DO, inkluding the Trolloc war, so the AS should be well aware that they will have to face channelers in TG.

 

Yeah again the problem started between the Trolloc Wars(we know AS dominated in that) and War of the Hundred Years after they instituted the three oaths. Since that time period there have been zero major wars with the shadow and no large scale battles against other channelers.

[Superhal]

So there are many variables, but when all is said and done (and I hate to say this) a pimply faced kid training at the BT for a few months could kill even the hardest Warder in a heartbeat.

 

One thing I wanted to point out was that not all combat is the same. Sure, an army of warders vs. a handful of asha'man would be a slaughter. However, it's not guaranteed to be a rock-paper-scissors type deal. If AS were paper, sure the scissors would beat them every time. Therefore, AS would be most effective vs different types of forces, and they can't be discounted just because the examples we've seen recently have only been scissors.

[Thor]

Then Egwene's insistence on keeping the 3 oaths looks even more stupid..what is the use of all the fancy weaves when you have to fight trollocs etc.

Not been reading up on the oaths?

 

* To speak no word that is not true

* To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

* Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

 

They can smash anyone who they know or think they know is a darkfriend to smitherens, and considering this will be a Light vs Dark battle, they can kill pretty much anyone.

I mean, we see Elaida almost kill Egwene because she actually believed that Egwene was a darkfriend, or the oaths would have prevented her from doing it.

EDIT: Well, yes she could have assumed it was not a weapon to use the One Power to lash someone bloody, but hey.

 

 

In 13 books they have shown a very poor account of their fighting abilities...other than some individual engagements.

 

Verrin did beat Graendal back with her circle, and Graendal had an angreal.

Merise also held back Aran'gar, although they lost the asha'man. But to be fair to Merise, Aran'gar had the element of surprise (I'm pretty sure the asha'man died immediately at the start), plus saidin users are generally stronger than saidar users.

[Superhal]

Verin and Alanna kicked some serious butt at the battle of Two Rivers.

Moiraine has killed trollocs, myrddral, Forsaken, darkhounds, etc. Just about the only single thing Moiraine didn't kill was a Dragkhar at the sister's house, but she had Lan to take care of it.

Various Red sisters beat a bunch of False Dragons (with armies).

Cadsuane captured one or more False Dragons by herself.

 

Imho, I think it's just a case of observer's bias: since they've been getting spanked recently, people think they are weak.

[XXX]

Verin and Alanna kicked some serious butt at the battle of Two Rivers.

Moiraine has killed trollocs, myrddral, Forsaken, darkhounds, etc. Just about the only single thing Moiraine didn't kill was a Dragkhar at the sister's house, but she had Lan to take care of it.

Various Red sisters beat a bunch of False Dragons (with armies).

Cadsuane captured one or more False Dragons by herself.

 

Imho, I think it's just a case of observer's bias: since they've been getting spanked recently, people think they are weak.

 

 

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

[solarz]

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Sorry, but no.

 

• A handful of Aes Sedai held off over 200 Shaido Wise Ones and 40,000 Aiel Warriors at Dumai's Wells
   
  
• The Aes Sedai were surprised and disorganized by the Seanchan attack, but when Egwene rallied the novices, she showed the Seanchan "wilders" what a Circle and a sa'angreal is capable off.
   
  
• Semirahge alone was able to wipe out the Seanchan imperial court, despite all their damane. Yet, no Forsaken have dared openly attack the White Tower, even with the Black Ajah at their disposal.
   
  
• During the Cleansing of Saidin, a company of Aes Sedai, supported by a few Ashaman, repelled no less than SIX Forsaken. Alivia the Damane, even stronger than Nynaeve in raw power, and wearing a set of angreal, was badly wounded by Cyndane, who was able to withdraw without taking a scratch. This shows that blowing people up is completely different from dueling another channeler.
  

[XXX]

They are weak when someone they fight also has access to the OP.

 

Sorry, but no.

 

• A handful of Aes Sedai held off over 200 Shaido Wise Ones and 40,000 Aiel Warriors at Dumai's Wells
   
  
• The Aes Sedai were surprised and disorganized by the Seanchan attack, but when Egwene rallied the novices, she showed the Seanchan "wilders" what a Circle and a sa'angreal is capable off.
   
  
• Semirahge alone was able to wipe out the Seanchan imperial court, despite all their damane. Yet, no Forsaken have dared openly attack the White Tower, even with the Black Ajah at their disposal.
   
  
• During the Cleansing of Saidin, a company of Aes Sedai, supported by a few Ashaman, repelled no less than SIX Forsaken. Alivia the Damane, even stronger than Nynaeve in raw power, and wearing a set of angreal, was badly wounded by Cyndane, who was able to withdraw without taking a scratch. This shows that blowing people up is completely different from dueling another channeler.
  

 

1) They held their own against Shaido WO's who had no idea how to fight..they were copying what the AS did!!

 

2) Without the sa'angreal the WT was toast. That does not say anything much about the ability of the AS. There were only 50 damane in that attack BTW against the whole tower

 

3) We do not know what happened to the imperial court..whether Semirahge did it herself or used dark friends anyway they did assassinations not open warfare.

 

4) During Cleansing of Saidin they were supported by Ash'aman and one of the most powerful sa'angreal existing. Without that they were toast and the forsaken were not even really attacking,they were forced to come there.

 

None of your examples makes the case for AS powers...you have left out the dozens of AS who tried to blow up the BT and got run over easily by the Asha'man. All in all a very poor show for the mighty WT.

[solarz]

1) They held their own against Shaido WO's who had no idea how to fight..they were copying what the AS did!!

 

2) Without the sa'angreal the WT was toast. That does not say anything much about the ability of the AS. There were only 50 damane in that attack BTW against the whole tower

 

3) We do not know what happened to the imperial court..whether Semirahge did it herself or used dark friends anyway they did assassinations not open warfare.

 

4) During Cleansing of Saidin they were supported by Ash'aman and one of the most powerful sa'angreal existing. Without that they were toast and the forsaken were not even really attacking,they were forced to come there.

 

None of your examples makes the case for AS powers...you have left out the dozens of AS who tried to blow up the BT and got run over easily by the Asha'man. All in all a very poor show for the mighty WT.

 

Yes, because all those examples of Aes Sedai kicking ass don't make the case for their power? It's always funny to see people cherry-picking what they want to see in order to support their views. No one ever said the White Tower is invincible. The fact that they've suffered their share of defeats does not prove that they're weak, only that they're human.

 

Isn't the fact that Shaido Wise Ones were trying to copy what the Aes Sedai did proof that the AS are just better at OP than Aiel Wise Ones? (Under the very reasonable assumption that Shaido Wise Ones were comparable to the rest of the Aiel Wise Ones in knowledge of OP.)

 

During the Cleansing of Saidin, with the exception of Alivia, all of the Circles were guided by the Aes Sedai. The Ashaman were there to contribute raw power to the Circle. This shows that with enough power to back them up, modern Aes Sedai can indeed hold their own against channelers of the AoL.

 

And guess what? Because only the Aes Sedai know how to link, they are the only group of channelers who can gather enough power to match the Forsaken. THAT is why no Forsaken have dared to openly move against the White Tower. Do you think the Forsaken would not resort to assassinations if they thought they had a chance to destroy the WT? They even have the Black Ajah working for them! The fact is, Merana *hid* in the White Tower because she knew how dangerous the White Tower could be if it focused its attention on someone.

 

Your idea that the WT is weak because there were only 50 damane in the Seanchan attack shows how little you understand military tactics. A surprise raid of a few dozen elite troops can wreak havoc on a poorly guarded army camp of thousands. The Seanchan weren't out to occupy the WT. A raid is all about a small number of troops inflicting as much damage as possible against a much larger force by using surprise. Nonetheless, the Seanchan suffered considerable casualties.

 

And don't try to dismiss the sa'angreal. The use and possession of objects of power is part and parcel with the knowledge and might of the White Tower. Dismissing AS might because they used a sa'angreal is like dismissing the might of the US Navy because they use supercarriers.

 

Finally, even the mightiest powers can make blunders. The Black Tower disaster was due to Elaida's arrogance.

[sleepinghour]

During the Cleansing of Saidin, with the exception of Alivia, all of the Circles were guided by the Aes Sedai.

Flinn led the circle with Corele and Sarene against Demandred, and that was also the only circle that didn't suffer any fatalities.

[sleepinghour]

Various Red sisters beat a bunch of False Dragons (with armies).

Keep in mind that few male channelers except Logain and Taim had armies or even knew much about channeling. Capturing people like Thom's nephew Owyn was probably like shooting fish in a barrel, if he even resisted. Taim was only defeated because his horse threw him off, and Cadsuane (and her paralis-net) helped capture Logain.

 

Cadsuane captured one or more False Dragons by herself.

...and a ter'angreal set that worked the same as Mat's foxhead medallion. A paralis-net would make anyone near invincible, and it's implied that the wilder Norla once used it to wipe the floor with Cadsuane herself.

[solarz]

During the Cleansing of Saidin, with the exception of Alivia, all of the Circles were guided by the Aes Sedai.

Flinn led the circle with Corele and Sarene against Demandred, and that was also the only circle that didn't suffer any fatalities.

 

Are you sure that Flinn led the circle? That should not be possible:

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Link

 

In most circle formations, control can be passed to either a man or woman, but some circles limit which gender must lead. If there are only the minimum number of men present, a woman must lead, with three exceptions. A man must lead if the circle has seventy-two members, if the circle has only one man or one woman, or if it is a circle fewer than thirteen members with more than one man.

 

Perhaps you are thinking of Flinn detecting Saidin channeling and pointing out the target?