Least Favorite Character

[Maleshub]

honestly - I don't blame rand for the food spoilage. Yes, he's directly linked but I'd like to see somebody with a normal temperment stay chipper after the last 2-3 years of his life.

 

The conflict in Rand was "Win at any cost (Shadar Logoth logic)" vs. "Win a Victory under the Light (win with the right strategy and ethos)." And that conflict resulted in the deaths of untold thousands of people due to starvation and famine. It isn't written in the books directly; but it is there in abundant indirect references.

[driedraspberry]

The taint did grow worse, but that doesn't change the fact that Cad's Rand was a man resigned to his fate. Rand's adamant reluctance was entirely another monster Moiraine had to conquer.

 

In any case, whatever Rand's condition he had his most trusted person tell him that he needs Cads. There was little Cads could do for him to set her aside. Moiraine, however, had to find her own way to Rand.

 

Regarding Rand and his fate, he was resigned to it after The Great Hunt. We start The Dragon Reborn with Rand under Moiraine's control in his Mountains of Mist retreat. But that doesn't deny Moiraine's role in tutoring him and prodding him towards becoming a leader (she did convince Siuan to send him with Ingtar to recover the HoV, and named him Ingtar's deputy). And we cannot also deny Lanfear's role in prodding Rand towards greatness and leadership.

 

Moiraine came to Rand when he was very vulnerable. He needed her to escape Trollocs and Fades. He knew that his life depended on her. Cadsuane on the other hand had to reign in a very arrogant Emporer who thought that the world should bow to him and come under his command to fight the Last Battle. Which is more difficult? (And I know that Min's was the key to Rand keeping Cads around him).

 

Yes, Min is key. Nothing Cadsuane did herself convinced Rand, arrogant emperor or not, to ask her to be his adviser. He could've been the most conceded twit in the world, that doesn't change the fact that he trusts Min and in her ability, directing him to make his decisions. Any achievements of Cads in this regard are null. She did nothing to sway him (the opposite, actually). End of story.

 

Rand may have been vulnerable, but he came from a place where AS were considered darkfriends. Moiraine had to deal with not one boy's suspicions, but a whole lot of them. The point is Cads couldn't have done what Moiraine did. Sorry, I don't believe it for a second. Whereas, Moiraine, with Min's viewing would have as easily as Cads attached herself to Rand and advised him....

[Maleshub]

Yes, Min is key. Nothing Cadsuane did herself convinced Rand, arrogant emperor or not, to ask her to be his adviser. He could've been the most conceded twit in the world, that doesn't change the fact that he trusts Min and in her ability, directing him to make his decisions. Any achievements of Cads in this regard are null. She did nothing to sway him (the opposite, actually). End of story.

 

Rand may have been vulnerable, but he came from a place where AS were considered darkfriends. Moiraine had to deal with not one boy's suspicions, but a whole lot of them. The point is Cads couldn't have done what Moiraine did. Sorry, I don't believe it for a second. Whereas, Moiraine, with Min's viewing would have as easily as Cads attached herself to Rand and advised him....

 

You see now that Rand's mindset required Min to convince him to keep Cadsuane around. Without Min's viewing, he doesn't know what's good for him; and cannot see and deduce things due to his arrogance and taint-induced madness.

 

But in Moiraine's incident, she saved his life, saved his village, and saved his father's life. With all she's done and with the knowledge that the Trollocs will come back, it didn't take Rand much to be convinced that he must go with her. There was absolutely no conflict between then throughout TEotW.

[Suttree]

Sure, but she had to deal with Rand's reluctance, adolescent emoness, his suspicion of AS and specifically she herself, and his general ignorance. Point is Rand has always been difficult, just in different ways.

 

Are you really equating that in any way to dealing Dark Rand?!

to be honest Cads didn't really deal directly with Dark Rand

 

That is splitting hairs. Min was the final straw...he had been well along all the way back to tPoD when his arrogance soared leading to him slaughtering his own men in the Damona campaign.

not really, dark rand was specifically after the Min incident, Hard Rand was before that, the distinction being that Dark Rand would have killed anyone who got in his way, rather than just ride roughshod over them like Hard Rand usually did

 

So all the food spoilage and what not before that was because he was "hard Rand". No of course not, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."

I don't know what that quote was for, because in the context it makes no sense, there is a distinct difference between the two mindsets, you cannot just say he was dark rand since tPoD or whatever, he was in a very different mindset compared to dark rand

 

The food spoiling shows where his head was and the path he was going down. Again you can make distinctions between "hard" and "dark" all you want. The point as you well know is all of that was far more difficult than twisting a country yokel around your finger. Also you had your little deal "directly" distinction which of course is beside the point. The fact that she had to work under those restrictions just made dealing with him more difficult.

[driedraspberry]

Yes, Min is key. Nothing Cadsuane did herself convinced Rand, arrogant emperor or not, to ask her to be his adviser. He could've been the most conceded twit in the world, that doesn't change the fact that he trusts Min and in her ability, directing him to make his decisions. Any achievements of Cads in this regard are null. She did nothing to sway him (the opposite, actually). End of story.

 

Rand may have been vulnerable, but he came from a place where AS were considered darkfriends. Moiraine had to deal with not one boy's suspicions, but a whole lot of them. The point is Cads couldn't have done what Moiraine did. Sorry, I don't believe it for a second. Whereas, Moiraine, with Min's viewing would have as easily as Cads attached herself to Rand and advised him....

 

You see now that Rand's mindset required Min to convince him to keep Cadsuane around. Without Min's viewing, he doesn't know what's good for him; and cannot see and deduce things due to his arrogance and taint-induced madness.

 

But in Moiraine's incident, she saved his life, saved his village, and saved his father's life. With all she's done and with the knowledge that the Trollocs will come back, it didn't take Rand much to be convinced that he must go with her. There was absolutely no conflict between then throughout TEotW.

 

Actually, what pissed me off the first time I read tEotW was how ungrateful Rand & co. were. To say there was no conflict is simply not true. Sure, they agreed to leave with her, but from a few days on, early in the book the boys are already discussing ditching the AS and heading for Illian. They constantly argue with her and defy her (not telling her about their dreams) because simply they don't trust her, but kinda have no choice so they stick with her. Moiraine's patience and ability to play them all as well as does isn't something that many AS could manage. Cads may be an adventurer, but I could never see her putting up with the TR crowd the way Moiraine does. Just thinking about traveling all that time with Cads is enough to give anybody nightmares, lol.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Good catch Theo, I missed that. Yes we know Cads is too hard on herself and in addition the quote was taken out of context. Far from giving up she goes on to say....

 

Oh come now. The quote most certainly is not "taken out of context." Nothing in the text contradicts it, and it stands alone as a statement. Cadsuane believes she went about things incorrectly. End of story.

 

That said, you are correct that the events she set in motion eventually lead to the epiphany in VoG. Also as you said, there was a crap-ton of luck involved in that, while I admit that part of it was her guidance (can't be refuted as Rand himself says so to Egwene), I'll echo the sentiment that without Min's viewing, her strategy is an utter failure. Bottom line is, her methodology was flawed, and she knows it.

[fuzz1717]

A country yokel he may have been, but he was a Two Rivers country yokel, repudiated to be some of the most stubborn folk around. No, Moir and Cads both had their own tasks, but if we compare TFoH Moir to say WH Cads (where I thought she was her most reasonable, helping him out of jail and such), they both did admirable jobs at shaping the future leaders. I just think that Cads blunt approach alienated the already arrogant Rand, and if it wasn't for Min's viewing, she would probably have been executed or something like that.

[Maleshub]

Actually, what pissed me off the first time I read tEotW was how ungrateful Rand & co. were. To say there was no conflict is simply not true. Sure, they agreed to leave with her, but from a few days on, early in the book the boys are already discussing ditching the AS and heading for Illian. They constantly argue with her and defy her (not telling her about their dreams) because simply they don't trust her, but kinda have no choice so they stick with her. Moiraine's patience and ability to play them all as well as does isn't something that many AS could manage. Cads may be an adventurer, but I could never see her putting up with the TR crowd the way Moiraine does. Just thinking about traveling all that time with Cads is enough to give anybody nightmares, lol.

 

I don't think that it would have been the same if the Two Rivers people were grateful to Moiraine and were totally under her control. That goes against the main plotline of the story: The Dragon doing his thing without strings attached from anyone (except the DO, Lol...). So, the minor conflicts of stubbornness, refusing to tell her about dreams, and stereotypical mistrust of Aes Sedai are more flavors than major conflicts.

 

I think Moiraine did a wonderful job of taking the TR bunch through their baby steps without scaring them into flight. But she had more than one string attached to them; and she knew how to pull them. Cadsuane on the other hand had no strings to Rand except Min's viewing (something beyond Rand's reasoning and state of mind ... just a prophecy to force him to accept Cads).

[Suttree]

Good catch Theo, I missed that. Yes we know Cads is too hard on herself and in addition the quote was taken out of context. Far from giving up she goes on to say....

 

Oh come now. The quote most certainly is not "taken out of context." Nothing in the text contradicts it, and it stands alone as a statement. Cadsuane believes she went about things incorrectly. End of story.

 

Nothing in the text exept for how events played out and Rand/Nyn saying she was right.

 

Also keep in mind Cads in TGS was very much a caricature version of herself. BS was very up front in admitting his bias probably played a role in how he portrayed the character so a moment of self doubt fits in with that.

[Durinax]

The food spoiling shows where his head was and the path he was going down. Again you can make distinctions between "hard" and "dark" all you want. The point as you well know is all of that was far more difficult than twisting a country yokel around your finger. Also you had your little deal "directly" distinction which of course is beside the point. The fact that she had to work under those restrictions just made dealing with him more difficult.

I would not say that, Moir also had to try to deal with Ishy pushing, prodding, and maneuvering rand.

 

But also explaining all this is a waste of time, all I should do is remind you that without min giving rand her viewing Cad would have been around rand for a total of the 5 minute introduction they had, where cad was quite rude.

[thisguy]

The food spoiling shows where his head was and the path he was going down. Again you can make distinctions between "hard" and "dark" all you want. The point as you well know is all of that was far more difficult than twisting a country yokel around your finger. Also you had your little deal "directly" distinction which of course is beside the point. The fact that she had to work under those restrictions just made dealing with him more difficult.

I would not say that, Moir also had to try to deal with Ishy pushing, prodding, and maneuvering rand.

 

But also explaining all this is a waste of time, all I should do is remind you that without min giving rand her viewing Cad would have been around rand for a total of the 5 minute introduction they had, where cad was quite rude.

That's some truff there. Min saved Rand. Everybody else sucks.

[thisguy]

honestly - I don't blame rand for the food spoilage. Yes, he's directly linked but I'd like to see somebody with a normal temperment stay chipper after the last 2-3 years of his life.

 

The conflict in Rand was "Win at any cost (Shadar Logoth logic)" vs. "Win a Victory under the Light (win with the right strategy and ethos)." And that conflict resulted in the deaths of untold thousands of people due to starvation and famine. It isn't written in the books directly; but it is there in abundant indirect references.

I get it, but did the guy even know at that point that his mood would have anything to do with crops?

 

Even if he did, I wonder how many people would be in a decent mood living his life...

[Suttree]

The food spoiling shows where his head was and the path he was going down. Again you can make distinctions between "hard" and "dark" all you want. The point as you well know is all of that was far more difficult than twisting a country yokel around your finger. Also you had your little deal "directly" distinction which of course is beside the point. The fact that she had to work under those restrictions just made dealing with him more difficult.

I would not say that, Moir also had to try to deal with Ishy pushing, prodding, and maneuvering rand.

 

But also explaining all this is a waste of time, all I should do is remind you that without min giving rand her viewing Cad would have been around rand for a total of the 5 minute introduction they had, where cad was quite rude.

 

Both Min and Cads played a critical role, I'll give you that. That is probably the order I would place those who have unequivocally supported Rand as well. Min being first and Cads coming in at a close second.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Oh come now. The quote most certainly is not "taken out of context." Nothing in the text contradicts it, and it stands alone as a statement. Cadsuane believes she went about things incorrectly. End of story.

 

Nothing in the text exept for how events played out and Rand/Nyn saying she was right.

 

Also keep in mind Cads in TGS was very much a caricature version of herself. BS was very up front in admitting his bias probably played a role in how he portrayed the character so a moment of self doubt fits in with that.

 

Nynaeve wasn't commenting on her methodology, and neither was Rand. They both were agreeing that she was correct in her idea that Rand can't become something "as bad as the Forsaken." Rand says something about how he was never meant to be a weapon as he initially imagined, echoing the same agreement. She could have presented that idea far more easily if she was willing to be slightly diplomatic (e.g. not creating the worst first impression impression ever - seriously, could her whole dramatic act during her first appearance be better designed to enrage Rand?).

 

The quote stands - she states her modus operandi was incorrect, and no one disagrees. She caught multiple big breaks that allowed it be successful, most notably Min's viewing.

 

EDIT: and I'm not even touching the fact that Cadsuane is apparently invincible post KoD, because none of the BS text on her seems to count according to any of her supporters, which is very convenient.

[thisguy]

Listen, Min let's Rand have sex with her. Could you imagine what a horrible mood he'd be in without her?

 

That girl deserves a monument.

[Suttree]

Oh come now. The quote most certainly is not "taken out of context." Nothing in the text contradicts it, and it stands alone as a statement. Cadsuane believes she went about things incorrectly. End of story.

 

Nothing in the text exept for how events played out and Rand/Nyn saying she was right.

 

Also keep in mind Cads in TGS was very much a caricature version of herself. BS was very up front in admitting his bias probably played a role in how he portrayed the character so a moment of self doubt fits in with that.

 

Nynaeve wasn't commenting on her methodology, and neither was Rand. They both were agreeing that she was correct in her idea that Rand can't become something "as bad as the Forsaken." Rand says something about how he was never meant to be a weapon as he initially imagined, echoing the same agreement. She could have presented that idea far more easily if she was willing to be slightly diplomatic (e.g. not creating the worst first impression impression ever - seriously, could her whole dramatic act during her first appearance be better designed to enrage Rand?).

 

The quote stands - she states her modus operandi was incorrect, and no one disagrees. She caught multiple big breaks that allowed it be successful, most notably Min's viewing.

 

EDIT: and I'm not even touching the fact that Cadsuane is apparently invincible post KoD, because none of the BS text on her seems to count according to any of her supporters, which is very convenient.

 

Really don want to get into it further but see the Luckers Cads thread I linked if you want reasons for why her methodology not only worked(admittedly with luck at the end) but was also reallistically the only way to go about it. It has been well diacussed there. Just about every move was calculated and planned far in advance. Also keep in mid that she was the only one to plan for that eventuality and even have it on the radar.

 

Lastly if you don't notice the change in her character post KoD there really is no reason to continue debating. We are just too far apart on what we are reading. BS at the best of times is not very nuanced and polished. What we have with his take on Cads is not only a lowest common denominator caricature version but also the need to lean on the crutch of constantly dumbing down one person to make another look better. This is highlighted most clearly in the confrontation with Tam which allowed fan gratification to carry the narrative.

[ShenAnCalhar]

Agreed, there's no reason to really get into it further. I read the thread you linked, and it contains a lot of good arguments on both sides, but my stance is still that her wisdom and ideas were invaluable, but her execution sucked. You agree except that you think her execution was good (excellent? perfect?). You make fair points and it was an enjoyable discussion.

 

And you're right, my point about the post-KoD texts being invincible is unfair. I do wish that RJ had been around to write the TGS parts about her questioning herself and doubting her actions after her exile, but there's no question that she becomes a different person. Mat has consistently been a favorite character of mine over the last 15 years, so agreeing with you as I do about Cadsuane being different, I imagine you know how I feel about post-KoD Mat (especially jarring because I think KoD is possibly the best Mat book). Cheers.

[Suttree]

And you're right, my point about the post-KoD texts being invincible is unfair. I do wish that RJ had been around to write the TGS parts about her questioning herself and doubting her actions after her exile, but there's no question that she becomes a different person. Mat has consistently been a favorite character of mine over the last 15 years, so agreeing with you as I do about Cadsuane being different, I imagine you know how I feel about post-KoD Mat (especially jarring because I think KoD is possibly the best Mat book). Cheers.

 

Could not agree more and I know exactly how you feel about Mat(he is in my top 5 for sure). KoD is indeed some of the bet Mat. The whole Maldives section and I loved getting Tuons pov on him. Good man Shen, I enjoyed the conversation as well...

[Vardar]

Can't find a quote at present, but the two wounds throbbing in counterpoint was mentioned a few times. That helped Rand work out that the solution involved dumping the taint on SL.

 

I'll find the quote right after the Doorway where he said he knew how to do it.

 

I believe the quote that has your doorway answer, and Ares' wound hint explanation is in the following.

 

He had asked once, warily, where he knew the answers would be true, how to cleanse the taint from saidin. And got a riddle for answer. Herid Fel had claimed the riddle stated "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy," but he had not see any way to apply it to the problem at hand. Had Fel been killed because he might have puzzled out the riddle? Rand had a hint at the answer, or thought he might, a guess that could be disastrously wrong. Hints and riddles were not answers, yet he had to do something.

 

The hint that Rand has, is the two wounds in his side. Many times during the book, they throb in unison, and in opposition. This is further backed up when you read RJ's explanation of what happened at the cleansing.

 

 

You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

 

The wounds in his side each parallel what is used in the cleansing. The wound from Ishamael parallels the Taint on saidin. The wound from Fain parallels the tain of Shadar Logoth.

 

Thanks good sir. There's another quote too he mentions before that. I believe it was when he was looking at the statues.

[Mr Ares]

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

You kid with the last bit...right? In no way does Rand deserve to be treated that way. Sure, he has a temper and can be a bully. Is Cads any better? And that's without being in Rand's impossible position.

 

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

I'm not kidding. Rand often acts childishly. He bullies people - he's far more guilty of that charge than Cadsuane has ever been. He throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He can't control his temper. Yes, Rand's position is difficult. But so what? Are you really saying that if you're under pressure, you're allowed to throw tantrums? If that's true, then I'd love to see you at work some day. Cads acts to force Rand to get a grip, to gain some self control.

 

As for bullying being her default option, people will often claim that but evidence is lacking. Who does she bully? She could have been open and honest, true. But what would that have gained her? As I've stated, she used her initial antagonism of Rand to judge his character. Further, Rand is deeply mistrustful of AS - she could try to be open and Rand might well consider it a ruse. As it is, her attitude did set her apart from other AS. She didn't come across as someone interested in manipulating him. As for respect, respect is earned, and measure is unceasing. Rand's position might demand respect, but his person is rather lacking. Oh, he's killed some Chosen and gained the loyalty of the Aiel - that makes him a killer and a conqueror. Rand the man is rather lacking. One of her goals is to make him a man worthy of respect, not a bully who throws temper tantrums. She won't do that by being meek and submissive. She stands up to him. When he starts to lose his temper, she smacks his bottom like he's a child. And that's the point - when he acts like a child, he is treated like one. When he acts like an adult, he is given respect. That's precisely why I think her treatment of him is justified.

 

As to Cads' bullying motif, it still stands. Those you've mentioned are not much proof, as Cads doesn't believe she needs to control any of them. Besides, in Sor she recognizes a bigger bully, and as to the other AS, we all know they see each other distinct than men and mere mortals. Show me evidence of her dealing with a person she means to "guide" to follow her path over their own without resorting to bullying.

She makes no effort to control Rand. She forces him to control himself, but when does she try to exercise power over him? She offers advice. Sometimes it is taken, sometimes it isn't. But Rand is at least willing to consider her points, whether or not he agrees. She puts him, and his interests first at every turn. Who does she force to follow her path? What is done in service of Cadsuane, as opposed to in service of Rand? And show me who she bullies.

 

Which brings us back to Moiraine and why I don't believe for a second Cads could bring Rand around to fully trust her. I can hardly believe she wouldn't bully him to achieve her means, and without Min around to convince Rand to keep her around, she'd been exiled in a hot minute.

Ah, this again. I wonder why people are so hung up on it? After all, surely TGS proves how worthless a point it truly is, even amongst the butchery of Cadsuane's character. Both RJ and the text tell us that she is an adaptable woman. She is put in a position to be his advisor. When that position is subsequently stripped from her, and she is exiled from his presence, does that signify the end of Cadsuane? No. She adapts. Without Min and her Viewing, do you really think Cadsuane would not have adapted? She might not be his adviser under those circumstances, or she might have found another means to that end. Either way, that he accepted he as his adviser because of Min says only that Min helped Cadsuane become Rand's adviser. Nothing more. Without her, Cadsuane would come by that position by different means or find another way to help Rand. Which makes Min somewhat useful, but not at all vital.

 

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

 

You claim it's in response to Rand's behavior, yet she started it the first time they met. So it can't be in response to his behavior, at least not his known behavior. If you're going to claim off screen she heard rumors, well I'd argue that's more childish than anything Rand has done.

I also said that it was done in order to learn about his character. In seeing how he reacts, she learns about him, and the best way to deal with him.

 

One day you'll stop using those 4 situations to explain a character who bullies dozens of other people. Simple numbers proves your idea wrong.

 

I believe, I really do. I have faith that one day you'll understand that if someone does something more often than not, generally speaking, that's their natural state.

If you'd care to provide examples of her bullying dozens of people, and doing so without an ulterior motive, then you'll have a point. If she has a reason for bullying them it doesn't exactly provide a strong point ot argue from, but it doesn't rule out your point either. But those people who aren't bullied at all definitely work against your point, and thus far they are in the majority of cited examples.

 

I actually think Egwene is very well written though a little unrealistic in her rise to power. The problem is that Sanderson absolutely butchers her character and she goes from a struggling young girl trying to earn respect to a complete harpy bitch. BS is the reason that everyone hates that character IMO.

Not quite. Egwene hate was around long before BS took over the series. It has gotten worse under him, while some of the other hatedoms aren't as active any more, but many of the problems people cite with her are rooted in the books Rj wrote, backed up with quotes from the books RJ wrote. At the heart of it, the Egwene RJ wrote is the problem, and the Egwene BS wrote is merely an extension of that problem.

[shortkut]

tl;dr version: when it comes to cads, the ends justify the means. Any negative opinions on those actions are unwarranted because they worked.

[b3arz3rg3r]

The irony is I really doubt the people who are Cads fanboys would be willing to deal with that behavior in their lives, saving the world be damned.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

You kid with the last bit...right? In no way does Rand deserve to be treated that way. Sure, he has a temper and can be a bully. Is Cads any better? And that's without being in Rand's impossible position.

 

Add to that, I'm not convinced Cads had no other options. She feels that way, but bullying is her default in dealing with difficult people. It just goes to show when AS do something right they go about it the worst way possible. For one she could have started their acquaintance by treating him with respect and be honest upfront, that would've been enough to distinguish her from other AS. Heck she could've achieved all her goals more quickly and at less risk. But of course that's not how AS roll, certainly not Cads.

I'm not kidding. Rand often acts childishly. He bullies people - he's far more guilty of that charge than Cadsuane has ever been. He throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way. He can't control his temper. Yes, Rand's position is difficult. But so what? Are you really saying that if you're under pressure, you're allowed to throw tantrums? If that's true, then I'd love to see you at work some day. Cads acts to force Rand to get a grip, to gain some self control.

 

As for bullying being her default option, people will often claim that but evidence is lacking. Who does she bully? She could have been open and honest, true. But what would that have gained her? As I've stated, she used her initial antagonism of Rand to judge his character. Further, Rand is deeply mistrustful of AS - she could try to be open and Rand might well consider it a ruse. As it is, her attitude did set her apart from other AS. She didn't come across as someone interested in manipulating him. As for respect, respect is earned, and measure is unceasing. Rand's position might demand respect, but his person is rather lacking. Oh, he's killed some Chosen and gained the loyalty of the Aiel - that makes him a killer and a conqueror. Rand the man is rather lacking. One of her goals is to make him a man worthy of respect, not a bully who throws temper tantrums. She won't do that by being meek and submissive. She stands up to him. When he starts to lose his temper, she smacks his bottom like he's a child. And that's the point - when he acts like a child, he is treated like one. When he acts like an adult, he is given respect. That's precisely why I think her treatment of him is justified.

 

I don't think you can necessarily call Rand's bullying childish. Though it certainly was wrong. Since TDR he had to bully the people around him or he would have gotten nowhere. He had to do so with pretty much everyone other than the Aiel. The Tairens, Cairhienen. And he had to do the same with the Aes Sedai and even the Wise Ones. Where the mundane folk essentially saw in Rand a leader no matter how dangerous and potentially mad, all female channelers treated him as someone who had to be lead instead. So Rand had to be confrontational simply to assert himself. Rand certainly took it too far and his increasingly volatile temper which resulted from the taint, his stress and his missguided attempt to kill off his emotions to emulate Aes Sedai made it a lot worse, but it is understandable.

 

Cadsuane didn't try to set him down like a child, what she did was prod a man she knew on the brink repeatedly. It already started with their first meeting, she was the one who controlled that meeting, she was prepared for it while he was caught unaware and reacted like a traumatised man would, by trying to scare what scared him. Instead of merely setting him down she immediately attacked the insecurities every male channeler had since the Breaking and continued to attack on that same vein whenever they encountered one another.

 

Also as far as respect goes, by the time Rand met Cadsuane what had any Aes Sedai other than Moiraine done to deserve his respect? He treated her like a threat because other than Moiraine that's what pretty much every Aes Sedai had been to him.

No-one is claiming it's pleasant behaviour to be on the receiving end of, only that it is reasonable, effective, and Rand's childishness means it's rather deserved.

 

You claim it's in response to Rand's behavior, yet she started it the first time they met. So it can't be in response to his behavior, at least not his known behavior. If you're going to claim off screen she heard rumors, well I'd argue that's more childish than anything Rand has done.

I also said that it was done in order to learn about his character. In seeing how he reacts, she learns about him, and the best way to deal with him.

 

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

I actually think Egwene is very well written though a little unrealistic in her rise to power. The problem is that Sanderson absolutely butchers her character and she goes from a struggling young girl trying to earn respect to a complete harpy bitch. BS is the reason that everyone hates that character IMO.

Not quite. Egwene hate was around long before BS took over the series. It has gotten worse under him, while some of the other hatedoms aren't as active any more, but many of the problems people cite with her are rooted in the books Rj wrote, backed up with quotes from the books RJ wrote. At the heart of it, the Egwene RJ wrote is the problem, and the Egwene BS wrote is merely an extension of that problem.

 

Hmm, I actually thought BS handled Egwene rather well. But then I disliked her already so I may not have noticed that she may have lost some qualities other people liked her for.

[Suttree]

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

Which of course makes the false assumption that had he stayed on script things wouldn't have worked out which there is zero proof to support. In addition Cads brought Tam to affect change, she is a meticulous planner but one doesn't need to predict to a t how everyting will work out. It ws her decision to bring him and the plan worked. It matters not how lucky she got, it was a success. A success right up there with saving his life, springing him from the jails in Far Madding before his mind broke, holding off the forsaken so he could cleanse the taint, and of course teaching him what he needed to now to survive TG.

[thisguy]

She really didn't find the best way of dealing with him though. All her plans of dealing with him ended in failure. And before Suttree comes out of hiding, yes she brought Tam to him which forced Rand to really face what he was becoming, but since Tam pretty much ignored her script her plan for him was still a failure.

 

Which of course makes the false assumption that had he stayed on script things wouldn't have worked out which there is zero proof to support. In addition Cads brought Tam to affect change, she is a meticulous planner but one doesn't need to predict to a t how everyting will work out. It ws her decision to bring him and the plan worked. It matters not how lucky she got, it was a success. A success right up there with saving his life, springing him from the jails in Far Madding before his mind broke, holding off the forsaken so he could cleanse the taint, and of course teaching him what he needed to now to survive TG.

 

You can say the same thing about Rand.

[Suttree]

You can say the same thing about Rand.

 

Sorry you lost me. You could say what about him? Are you trying to submit that Cads was not necesarry?