Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is plain rubbish?

[Zhipp]

Just look at the comments here, most of the hate she's getting is based on things she did after Egwene completely screwed her over in book 5. I blame Lan too.

 

Why? I think that Nynaeve's growth and maturation began once she married Lan. He is a positive influence on her and the sense of security that she has now that her love life is settled as been very good for her. She is almost immediately much less overbearing, whiney, and rudely pushy once she married Lan.

You have a point, though between books 4 and 7 she would always become overly flustered when thinking about him. So it's not really his fault, but the way Nyneave viewed him at the time. I guess I have to give him some credit for her "recovery" as well, then.

[Suttree]

C'mon, man, you're going beyond reaching, now.

 

 

Guilty.

 

and this brings us to the point I was hoping to make ever since DFO stood by his original claim. It can get quite frustrating when people continuously attribute obviously wrong motivations to a characters actions.

 

Were Egwene's actions deplorable? Absolutely. She was trying to cover up a lie first and foremost. Saying she was doing so only to help Nyn better understand Tar is almost as off base as those who claimed Egwene takes sadistic pleasure in her bullying. Off base like many of the other annoying claims seen in recent months on DM such as Egwene is worse than Elaida, her actions are forsaken like, or that she committed rape on Nynaeve. Randsc I fully know you are capable of employing hyperbole to get a point across but you have to admit there are posters here that throw out those claims with absolute sincerity.

 

As for your scenario of sending a daughter to a bad part of town. Couple distinctions, first off you would have zero control of said friends. That is a situation that coudl quickly get out of control whereas Egwene had only to think her illusion away. Second Egwene is trying to learn skills in Tar that will help the light fight against the DO. She has a limited amount of time to make this happen and shows herself to be quite adept at the skill. A far cry from someone cheating on their wife. Change those things and the example is pretty solid. Egwene had no right to treat her friend in such a manner to cover up a lie.

 

The second part of that chapter having to do with the drink however is Egwene standing up for her new found rights. All her life Nyn has been in a position of power over the TR folk. We have seen her bully and take of advantage of it time and time again throughout the series.

[DemandredFO]

Suttree as regards the calling of thugs, Amys made a dragon to show Egwene the danger. Amys had decades of TAR experience and knew what she was doing. Egwene had what a few months, what if she'd been unable to make them disappear.

Every character in this series has faults, that's what makes it realistic. I wish the Egwene fans would admit she has faults too. Every time an Egwene fault is brought up inevitably a comment appears, yeah well Rand does x too or Nyneave, Matt... as if these characters actions make Egwene a saint.

One more thing, Nyneave switched and thumped with a stick. She never tried to have them raped which would've been the outcome if Egwene lost control. I'm not coming back to this thread Suttree so I guess you can make this thread about me instead of Egwene as you seemingly tried to do.

[Suttree]

Suttree as regards the calling of thugs, Amys made a dragon to show Egwene the danger. Amys had decades of TAR experience and knew what she was doing. Egwene had what a few months, what if she'd been unable to make them disappear.

Every character in this series has faults, that's what makes it realistic. I wish the Egwene fans would admit she has faults too.

 

Didn't I just call her actions deplorable? Sorry mate, didn't mean to make this about you but that was just the most recent example I had to hand.

 

In relation to her calling the thugs...Egwene had a complete mastery at this point over illusions SHE called. If she was pulled into a dream it might be very different but in this situation it was hers to control. Not possible for it to get away from her.

[Terez]

TFOH, Ch. 24

 

It was too bad about Siuan; they needed a firm hand to settle them down. Odd that she should think of Nynaeve so; Nynaeve had always been the one with the firm hand. But since that episode in the Tower of Tel’aran’rhiod, Nynaeve had become less and less someone she had to struggle against.

 

Guiltily, she realized as she turned a page that she was looking forward to seeing Nynaeve tonight. Not because Nynaeve was a friend, but because she wanted to see if the effects had lingered.

 

We see here that before the next planned meeting in TAR with Nynaeve after the incident with the vile tasting drink and the two summoned thugs, Egwene was really looking forward to see whether her bullying has had a long term effect. She was certainly enjoying her newly found upper hand against Nynaeve.

Probably because Nynaeve had always bullied her - we can see Egwene being a meek good girl as Nynaeve's apprentice - so who can blame her for being glad to have the upper hand for once? Nynaeve was just as horrible to her as to everyone else. Part of the reason Nynaeve has changed for the better is because of Egwene.

[sandoz12]

It's kind of funny how even a thread intended to be a Nynaeve bashing thread ends up turning into an Egwene bashing thread instead.

 

Also if this were a facebook poll I would be tempted to add an option "You can't spell flak right" :).

[Justanotherfacet]

Hehehe well spotted Sandoz =D

 

Its kinda interesting, when I wrote my last entry I intentionally dropped a few example of me doing exactly what I pointed out that other people doing - providing evidence which contradicts their claim. But no one called me out on the (ones i thought were) obvious ones...

 

AS for Nyn VS Eg - It makes complete sense.

 

Egwene is a station, a title and wields great authority, she sets up and sends people to places that they're needed or where they can do the most good.

 

Nynaeve is the most powerful (and unpredictable) tool in anyones arsenal, you invite her along and she'll end up fighting a forsaken or cleansing the taint, you invite her along when the task absolutely MUST be completed because although she may piss you (and everyone around her) off, she'll get shit done.

 

One is the brain the other the arm.

 

For the record guys, the originaltitle of this topic was - Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is a massive Bitch - Feel free to censor me again Luckers =D

I never said she's useless - Just overrated; because though she gets obvious results she's just the last piece in a larger chain working for a goal. She has it easy

[Zentari]

C'mon, man, you're going beyond reaching, now.

 

 

Guilty.

 

and this brings us to the point I was hoping to make ever since DFO stood by his original claim. It can get quite frustrating when people continuously attribute obviously wrong motivations to a characters actions.

 

What a well thought out point that was, totally applicable since BOTH are blatantly false and BOTH contradict POVs.

 

PS:This post may contain sarcasm.

[Suttree]

C'mon, man, you're going beyond reaching, now.

 

 

Guilty.

 

and this brings us to the point I was hoping to make ever since DFO stood by his original claim. It can get quite frustrating when people continuously attribute obviously wrong motivations to a characters actions.

 

What an well thought out point that was, totally applicable since BOTH are blatantly false and BOTH contradict POVs.

 

PS:This post may contain sarcasm.

 

and you apparently missed mine throughout this thread...devils advocate much.

[anotherfingolfin]

So somebody explain something to me. Let's say you know someone who has a slight dominance over you. Like a big sister, or someone who has taught you stuff, or helped raise you on occassion. Nothing extreme, not someone who is vicious or abusive of whatever upper-hand they might have. And now you are no longer a child, you are more or less that person's equal. Do you gain respect through force of will, showing you are competent? Do you act maturely, by realising that if the person is too dumb to realise how far you have come, they are no longer in a position to really dominate you anyway? Or do you take this person, who at the core has had a caring relationship with you, to your place of power, and scare the shit out of them, with some kind of physical abuse and the threat of more?

Personally I think, any excuse of 'teenage rebellion' or 'coming-of-age' is idiotic. It makes you a bad person, reagardless of age.

I hate people using the ages of the main characters as excuses for faults. Let alone the fact that in pre-industrial society people were expected to mature sooner, I say that if characters can use age as an excuse, then that very same age and lack of maturity should disqualify them from holding any responsibility or position of power.

 

Edit: Wow kinda off topic tangential rant there.

[Terez]

Do you act maturely, by realising that if the person is too dumb to realise how far you have come, they are no longer in a position to really dominate you anyway?

That's the thing; Nynaeve always assumed she was in such a position. Nynaeve always resented that no one took her seriously because of her age, but then she turned around and did the same to Egwene (and Elayne, who was not as much bothered by it, probably because she had more reason to be secure in herself).

 

Or do you take this person, who at the core has had a caring relationship with you, to your place of power, and scare the shit out of them, with some kind of physical abuse and the threat of more?

Alternatively, she could have thumped her with her stick. The scaring the shit out of Nynaeve actually served a purpose; it showed Nynaeve how much her skills were lacking, and how much danger she stood to face. Because she learned those lessons, she's now one of the most skilled in the Dream, and she later tried her best to make the same impressions on the Aes Sedai she was forced to teach.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I have the feeling that some - not all- posters who so fiercely defend Egwene's behaviour in this particular scene tend to somehow identify with her or at least treat her like some kind of a feminist role model. So every critique of Egwene, no matter how justified, must be rebutted, even if it means employing some heavy rationalization and turning a blind eye to large parts of the text.

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable to like and admire Egwene and also admit what is really obvious - that in this scene in TAR Egwene abused Nynaeve, regardless of her motivation (and as to that, there is the excellent analogy by Randsc a few post above who rightly demolishes this pathetic argument that Egwene only "wanted to teach Nynaeve a lesson because she was concerned for her safety").

 

The huge difference between Egwene and Nynaeve in their mutual relations is this- while Nynaeve could also be harsh, bossy etc., she always in fact pulled Egwene up. It was after all Nynaeve who picked Egwene as Wisdom's apprentice, it was her who first gave her an opportunity to grow and learn and raise above the average in their society. She has cared for Egwene in all the books and has never done anything that could in any way damage or traumatize Egwene (Nynaeve could be irritating, bossy, but never cruel or cynically manipulative)

 

Egwene, on the other hand, tried to traumatize Nynaeve enough that she would never again stand up to her. I feel really disgusted with arguments that she aimed for any kind of "equality". Unless it was the same kind of "equality" that Egwene wanted to have in her relationship with Gawyn in ToM...

[Smittyphi]

Huge Egwene fan here.

 

I think she is wonderful but am not delusional to think she is always right. She has her faults. I wish she would show more remorse than she does when she's wrong but her heart is genuinely in the right place.

[bhskeeper11]

In my oh-so-humble opinion, I think Nynaeve is one of the most well-rounded female characters of the series and probably my favorite POV to read from.

 

Egwene, I'm indifferent to. I do not dislike her, but I do not find her character all that fascinating either.

 

Elayne, I find the most annoying. I can't exactly place a finger on why... but I just find her annoying.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Huge Egwene fan here.

 

I think she is wonderful but am not delusional to think she is always right. She has her faults. I wish she would show more remorse than she does when she's wrong but her heart is genuinely in the right place.

 

I dislike Egwene, but it has more to do with her overall arc (the writing), then with her as a character. I agree that she has many virtues, but this particular scene is clearly not her highest point and defending it so strongly is pointless IMHO. Egwene could be a generally good person, who unfortunately treated Nynaeve very badly. The same could be said about Rand in many scenes.

[Smittyphi]

but this particular scene is clearly not her highest point and defending it so strongly is pointless IMHO.

I am not pointing to any scene particuarly, just her in general.

[Guest PiotrekS]

but this particular scene is clearly not her highest point and defending it so strongly is pointless IMHO.

I am not pointing to any scene particuarly, just her in general.

 

I know, I was referring to the earlier posts which defended Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve in TAR. That's how Egwene invaded this Nynaeve thread in the first place

[anotherfingolfin]

I have the feeling that some - not all- posters who so fiercely defend Egwene's behaviour in this particular scene tend to somehow identify with her or at least treat her like some kind of a feminist role model. So every critique of Egwene, no matter how justified, must be rebutted, even if it means employing some heavy rationalization and turning a blind eye to large parts of the text.

 

I think it is perfectly reasonable to like and admire Egwene and also admit what is really obvious - that in this scene in TAR Egwene abused Nynaeve, regardless of her motivation (and as to that, there is the excellent analogy by Randsc a few post above who rightly demolishes this pathetic argument that Egwene only "wanted to teach Nynaeve a lesson because she was concerned for her safety").

 

The huge difference between Egwene and Nynaeve in their mutual relations is this- while Nynaeve could also be harsh, bossy etc., she always in fact pulled Egwene up. It was after all Nynaeve who picked Egwene as Wisdom's apprentice, it was her who first gave her an opportunity to grow and learn and raise above the average in their society. She has cared for Egwene in all the books and has never done anything that could in any way damage or traumatize Egwene (Nynaeve could be irritating, bossy, but never cruel or cynically manipulative)

 

Egwene, on the other hand, tried to traumatize Nynaeve enough that she would never again stand up to her. I feel really disgusted with arguments that she aimed for any kind of "equality". Unless it was the same kind of "equality" that Egwene wanted to have in her relationship with Gawyn in ToM...

 

This.

[Himiko]

Probably because Nynaeve had always bullied her - we can see Egwene being a meek good girl as Nynaeve's apprentice - so who can blame her for being glad to have the upper hand for once? Nynaeve was just as horrible to her as to everyone else. Part of the reason Nynaeve has changed for the better is because of Egwene.

 

May I direct your attention to my previous post? Nynaeve didn't follow Egwene around bullying her, Egwene was her apprentice, Nynaeve was her teacher, or boss. Nynaeve bossed everyone around, but she wasn't vindictive about it- she was a point of authority, and she thought she knew what was best for people's own good. I'm sure Egwene was bossed around, boo hoo for her, but does that mean now they are equals (at this point in the story, both were simply Accepted), Egwene should force Nynaeve to be afraid of her and do what she says? That's not equality. By that token, had she been raised AS, rather than Amyrlin, she should have done the same to Moiraine and the other sisters who'd taught her- because they've treated her like a child, bossed her around, patronised her. What about the Wise Ones? Should she feel justified in doing the same to Amys and Bair because they were in authority over her and acted as such?

 

Actually ran into Waterstones' earlier to check their copy of TFoH, as the book is currently as my parents house- came across a sentence I'd forgotten about, from Nynaeve's POV, where Egwene tries to make her drink the vile liquid stuff. She remembers the point at which they stopped being Wisdom and Apprentice, and just became two women far from home, but she doesn't like that the balance between them now seems to be shifting even further. This implies that she has seen Egwene as an "equal" for some time now, I suspect since she told Egwene to stop calling her Wisdom, in TGH. She bosses everyone around and takes charge at some points during the hunt for the Black Ajah, etc. but then, she is the strongest channeler, the eldest, and an Accepted, where Egwene and Elayne had been novices. Now they are all Accepted, on an equal level, I agree Egwene should be striving to be respected, but not to bully Nynaeve into submission where she is too scared to go against her, and this seems exactly what she is doing. I honestly don't see, in this and the previous book, how Nynaeve was apparently so evil to her, so mean to all-growed-up Egwene that in order for Egwene to assert her authority as an adult and an equal, she has to have Nynaeve under her heel rather than standing at her side as an equal. Equals don't expect one person to be scared of what another will scold them for if they don't do what they're told. Equals shouldn't be punished for doing something you yourself are doing (lying to people to make yourself look better/ more important- there's no real harm done by telling Egwene that she didn't drink the forkroot, and there's no real harm in letting the Wise Ones think you're AS for another full book, but both are lies. Humiliating Nynaeve for admitting to a lie reeks of hypocrisy). Equals don't torture other equals because they're worried someone will tell on them.

 

Put simply, if Egwene is after equality with Nynaeve: Either she's using this as an excuse, and wants Nynaeve under heel, or she's an immature teenager who doesn't understand what equality is.

[Suttree]

but this particular scene is clearly not her highest point and defending it so strongly is pointless IMHO.

I am not pointing to any scene particuarly, just her in general.

 

I know, I was referring to the earlier posts which defended Egwene's treatment of Nynaeve in TAR. That's how Egwene invaded this Nynaeve thread in the first place

 

Actually no it wasn't. Egwene invaded this thread as she usually does, riding in on a wave negative comments. Look to your own post as one of the first that brought her up.

[randsc]

Actually, Egwene "invaded" this thread in ... the original post. The OP held her up, by name, as Nynaeve's superior. That's why I don't feel bad at all for taking the thread off topic.

[Suttree]

True, but I was referring to the point were things started to go from comparison into the realm of bash. As I said earlier in the thread, it actually beat the "law of DM posts" in relation to Egwene by a page or so. Guess that's something...

[Himiko]

The OP brought up Egwene in the original post. They then added an option to the poll, relating to Egwene, and completely unrelated to Nynaeve, whom this thread is supposedly about.

 

I agree, it wasn't neccessary to bring Egwene into the thread. But it wasn't the Egwene "bashers" that did it. She was held up by one or two posters as an example of a "better" character than Nynaeve, others disagreed, and that sent it down into Egwene vs. Nynaeve territory. With the greatest respect, if someone doesn't want a character to be bashed, they should either create a thread praising them (there is already one of these for Egwene, I believe), or leave them out of the discussion entirely, don't bring them into it and then expect people who disagree with your assessment not to disagree in case they are accused of bashing :P

 

Also, with the greatest respect, the original point regarding Nynaeve was: "She's a bitch who doesn't do anything". This thread was pretty much created to be a bashing thread, based on that first post, its hard to justify complaining about bashing occuring in a thread designed for bashing, towards a character brought up as a direct comparison in the initial post. Hell, if I bought up a thread about another character and mentioned Faile as being awesome in, I'd be drowned in Faile-criticism in the first page, I feel your pain :P

[Suttree]

The OP brought up Egwene in the original post. They then added an option to the poll, relating to Egwene, and completely unrelated to Nynaeve, whom this thread is supposedly about.

 

I agree, it wasn't neccessary to bring Egwene into the thread. But it wasn't the Egwene "bashers" that did it. She was held up by one or two posters as an example of a "better" character than Nynaeve, others disagreed, and that sent it down into Egwene vs. Nynaeve territory. With the greatest respect, if someone doesn't want a character to be bashed, they should either create a thread praising them (there is already one of these for Egwene, I believe), or leave them out of the discussion entirely, don't bring them into it and then expect people who disagree with your assessment not to disagree in case they are accused of bashing :P

 

Also, with the greatest respect, the original point regarding Nynaeve was: "She's a bitch who doesn't do anything". This thread was pretty much created to be a bashing thread, based on that first post, its hard to justify complaining about bashing occuring in a thread designed for bashing, towards a character brought up as a direct comparison in the initial post. Hell, if I bought up a thread about another character and mentioned Faile as being awesome in, I'd be drowned in Faile-criticism in the first page, I feel your pain :P

 

The thing is it goes far beyond this thread. Youre somewhat new to DM, but rest assured the Egwene phenomenon far exceeds any other in it's rabid intensity.

[randsc]

True, but I was referring to the point were things started to go from comparison into the realm of bash. As I said earlier in the thread, it actually beat the "law of DM posts" in relation to Egwene by a page or so. Guess that's something...

 

I actually thought we did a good job of not responding to deliberate provocation from someone who was clearly trolling. Ironically, your intervention probably contributed to the Egwene-bashing, because coming from a known non-troll, your posts demanded a response the OP did not.