Has Cadsuane Taught Rand What She Was Meant To?

[Demon_AS]

Firstly, I apologise if this idea has been covered elsewhere. I have tried looking and I could not see anything obvious.

 

My question seems stupid at first glance, I know, but I have been thinking. Min's Viewing was that Cadsuane has something "very important" to teach Rand and all the Asha'man. Up until now, everyone has assumed that this was teaching Rand how to laugh and cry again, but I've often wondered how that transferred onto the Asha'man. After all, not all of them are insane, and now that Nynaeve can Heal insanity and the Taint is no more, I don't see insanity being a major problem for men who can channel any more.

 

So, what if Cadsuane hasn't taught Rand what he needs to know, yet? Is it possible or likely that she has yet to teach him that important thing? After all, her only contribution to Rand's epiphany was to bring him face to face with Tam... I'm not convinced at all that this constitutes "teaching" anything. That was just pure manipulation on her part.

 

This thought then led me further on to consider what it is she has left to teach him, if not laughter and tears. I thought maybe it was the fact that Callandor is flawed unless used in conjunction with two women, which seems like a pretty vital fact, but again I can't work out how that links in with the rest of the Asha'man.

 

Anyway, I have other thoughts on this but that is neither here nor there. Have I missed something obvious that makes my question stupid? And if not, then any thoughts on this?

 

Many thanks for reading.

[sandoz12]

As at the end of TGS we knew that only part of Min's vision was completed:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

Source - The WoT Interview Database (located on Theoryland)

 

So considering that(as far as I could tell) he wasn't taught anything else during TOM, I would say that Min's prophecy is still only partly complete and Rand and the Asha'man still have more to learn.

[Demon_AS]

As at the end of TGS we knew that only part of Min's vision was completed:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

Source - The WoT Interview Database (located on Theoryland)

 

So considering that(as far as I could tell) he wasn't taught anything else during TOM, I would say that Min's prophecy is still only partly complete and Rand and the Asha'man still have more to learn.

Phew, that's reassuring. Glad I didn't ask a completely foolish question, which was my main concern ;).

 

Now what is it that Rand and the Asha'man wouldn't like to learn? Humility? Imminent death? That the Taint will come back? I can't imagine Rand liking to hear that sort of news :P.

[algspkr]

Now that I think of it I believe that it may refer to the line in ToM where Rand sends an Asha'man to the Black Tower and says something like "Tell the men that we are not weapons."

[jwood01]

As at the end of TGS we knew that only part of Min's vision was completed:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

Source - The WoT Interview Database (located on Theoryland)

 

So considering that(as far as I could tell) he wasn't taught anything else during TOM, I would say that Min's prophecy is still only partly complete and Rand and the Asha'man still have more to learn.

 

It seems with that answer it could be that she has taught Rand but not the rest of the Asha'man. But as you pointed out it could also be that she has more to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

Imagine if Rand Sedai had a bunch of Asha'man Sedai's behind him. They could kick some serious dreadlord a**!

[Demon_AS]

As at the end of TGS we knew that only part of Min's vision was completed:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

Source - The WoT Interview Database (located on Theoryland)

 

So considering that(as far as I could tell) he wasn't taught anything else during TOM, I would say that Min's prophecy is still only partly complete and Rand and the Asha'man still have more to learn.

 

It seems with that answer it could be that she has taught Rand but not the rest of the Asha'man. But as you pointed out it could also be that she has more to teach Rand and the Asha'man.

 

Imagine if Rand Sedai had a bunch of Asha'man Sedai's behind him. They could kick some serious dreadlord a**!

That would be amazing! Maybe Cadsuane will teach them how to access their older lives/knowledge.

 

But, of course, she herself hasn't achieved this feat, so it's probably wishful fanboy thinking. :(

[EvilSocrates]

Perhaps it is that "[they] are not weapons, [they] are men!"?

[jwood01]

Perhaps it is that "[they] are not weapons, [they] are men!"?

 

I agree.

[SylvanFox]

Are we not men? No, we are Devo! (retard moment)

[mbuehner]

or if someone could restore the past lives of the tinkers they could sew like the wind and win the last battle with the ending of The Three Amigos.

[Finnssss22]

Perhaps it is that "[they] are not weapons, [they] are men!"?

 

This would be my view as well.

Rand says as much to Cad's upon his return to Tear in ToM chptr 13.

Rand then imparts that message to Naeff to tell Logain in chptr 51.

 

Cad's, IMO, has now fulfilled Mins viewing.

Supported by Grady's conversation with Perrin in chptr 10 about the taint being gone and the insight he provides as to how the Ash'man had previously viewed their role.

Grady being the wise old fella he is, realises that with the taint gone, he is no longer just a weapon to be used up before he goes mad. He has hope again, hope to fight and live.

[Demon_AS]

I still don't think that Cadsuane did too much "teaching", per se. Her goal was to see Rand laugh again, but she didn't teach him how to laugh and cry. Alright, I'll accept she engineered the situation by which he was forced to question himself, but if anything, it was TAM who taught him what the right questions to ask were. Cadsuane was merely the catalyst that brought them face to face.

 

In my books, that doesn't count as "teaching". Also, we know the Asha'man are not going to like being taught what she has to teach - why would they dislike having a sane and hopeful future, where they don't go mad and can live to create a new Age of Legends? That sounds look pretty darn good news to me lol.

 

Any ideas on what else might be on the teaching agenda? Just for the sake of discussion.

[Finnssss22]

I still don't think that Cadsuane did too much "teaching", per se. Her goal was to see Rand laugh again, but she didn't teach him how to laugh and cry. Alright, I'll accept she engineered the situation by which he was forced to question himself, but if anything, it was TAM who taught him what the right questions to ask were. Cadsuane was merely the catalyst that brought them face to face.

 

In my books, that doesn't count as "teaching". Also, we know the Asha'man are not going to like being taught what she has to teach - why would they dislike having a sane and hopeful future, where they don't go mad and can live to create a new Age of Legends? That sounds look pretty darn good news to me lol.

 

Any ideas on what else might be on the teaching agenda? Just for the sake of discussion.

 

 

It doesn't matter what Cad's set out to teach Rand and the Asha'man, it's that her attempts at one thing actually led to another.

 

It's like if Cad's set out to teach Rand how to fish and pushes him to the lake. While he's there, he is not happy about the way she's trying to teach him so he jumps in the lake to get away from her and learns how to swim instead.

 

She got him to the lake but what he actually learned there wasn't what she intended.

[mb]

Like others, it seems that Rand's part was fulfilled; but not Ashamen's part.

 

Min's wording::

It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

"something" seems to imply one thing.

I guess Rand learned the something, but not yet the Ashamen.

[Finnssss22]

Like others, it seems that Rand's part was fulfilled; but not Ashamen's part.

 

Min's wording::

It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

"something" seems to imply one thing.

I guess Rand learned the something, but not yet the Ashamen.

 

You mean like what Rand told Naeff to pass on to Logain and what Grady is almost coming to realise on his own?

 

 

Cad's own behavior and what she says after Rand returns speaks volumes.

She is no longer trying to teach him anything nor does she feel the need to either. He has graduated in her eyes, her PoV in chptr 51 says it all.

She is working with him now.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

 

My current thinking is that she is going to teach them to knit. The Asha'ma will just not be able to get their purl stitches even and will therefore hate knitting.

[Finnssss22]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

 

My current thinking is that she is going to teach them to knit. The Asha'ma will just not be able to get their purl stitches even and will therefore hate knitting.

 

 

Haha! Well the knitting aside, it's not that they won't like learning "it", it's that they won't like learning "it" from her.

 

It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

[Demon_AS]

I still don't think that Cadsuane did too much "teaching", per se. Her goal was to see Rand laugh again, but she didn't teach him how to laugh and cry. Alright, I'll accept she engineered the situation by which he was forced to question himself, but if anything, it was TAM who taught him what the right questions to ask were. Cadsuane was merely the catalyst that brought them face to face.

 

In my books, that doesn't count as "teaching". Also, we know the Asha'man are not going to like being taught what she has to teach - why would they dislike having a sane and hopeful future, where they don't go mad and can live to create a new Age of Legends? That sounds look pretty darn good news to me lol.

 

Any ideas on what else might be on the teaching agenda? Just for the sake of discussion.

 

 

It doesn't matter what Cad's set out to teach Rand and the Asha'man, it's that her attempts at one thing actually led to another.

 

It's like if Cad's set out to teach Rand how to fish and pushes him to the lake. While he's there, he is not happy about the way she's trying to teach him so he jumps in the lake to get away from her and learns how to swim instead.

 

She got him to the lake but what he actually learned there wasn't what she intended.

I would agree if that was the case, but it isn't. Cadsuane and Sorilea set out to "teach Rand al'Thor tears and laughter" - this was the result of what Cadsuane did, but I disagree that she taught him anything. She achieved what she set out to do in spite of herself, not because she meant it, if you see what I mean. Furthermore, since tears and laughter was a goal that both Sorilea and Cadsuane shared, it can be argued that this can't be what Cadsuane is fated to teach Rand, because Min's viewing doesn't mention Sorilea at all. I'm not saying this is conclusive proof, but it's certainly suggestive.

 

And you're making the assumption that the Asha'man all needed to learn what Rand did (tears and laughter). I don't think that's necessarily the case - sure, they're all flinty-eyed hard-as-steel weapons of mass destruction, but they could still remember tears and laughter. We've seen Logain laugh through joy plenty of times, not to mention experience and express normal human emotion.

 

What I'm suggesting is that we (the readers) are being lulled into this idea that Cadsuane has taught what she's fated to teach Rand and the Asha'man, but if you actually examine the facts I don't think she's gotten much beyond the very beginning of teaching Rand what she needs to. Maybe Rand needed to re-discover happiness and hope before he can learn what Cadsuane needs to teach, but either way I don't think it's happened yet.

 

It all comes down to what Robert Jordan meant by "teach". In my book that means a passing on of knowledge that directly affects the recipient, that the recipient would not have been able to understand without teaching. That's not what happened - Rand simply needed to re-examine the premises on which he was fighting the Shadow and accept his mantle in totality.

 

This all ties in with my theory that LTT's memories and Rand's insanity were combined through his own fear and denial of his fate, but once he reconciled himself to everything he achieved complete integration with LTT's memories and is no longer insane.

[Demon_AS]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

 

My current thinking is that she is going to teach them to knit. The Asha'ma will just not be able to get their purl stitches even and will therefore hate knitting.

 

 

Haha! Well the knitting aside, it's not that they won't like learning "it", it's that they won't like learning "it" from her.

 

It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

An interesting thought! I had not considered it like that, but yes, I suppose it could very well just be Cadsuane herself that will cause the disliking of whatever she has to teach. Either way, that sort of suggests that she hasn't achieved what she's set out to do :).

[Finnssss22]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

 

My current thinking is that she is going to teach them to knit. The Asha'ma will just not be able to get their purl stitches even and will therefore hate knitting.

 

 

Haha! Well the knitting aside, it's not that they won't like learning "it", it's that they won't like learning "it" from her.

 

It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

An interesting thought! I had not considered it like that, but yes, I suppose it could very well just be Cadsuane herself that will cause the disliking of whatever she has to teach. Either way, that sort of suggests that she hasn't achieved what she's set out to do :).

 

 

Like I said, what Cad's was trying to teach him/them doesn't have to be what he/they learned. He/they definitely learned something valuable from Cad's, it's just not what she was trying to teach him/them and he/they definitely didn't like learning anything from her.

IE: The teaching them to fish but learning to swim example above.

 

 

But hey, it's just my opinion and maybe we shouldn't rule knitting out just yet

[Demon_AS]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

 

My current thinking is that she is going to teach them to knit. The Asha'ma will just not be able to get their purl stitches even and will therefore hate knitting.

 

 

Haha! Well the knitting aside, it's not that they won't like learning "it", it's that they won't like learning "it" from her.

 

It's not the message, it's the method of delivery.

An interesting thought! I had not considered it like that, but yes, I suppose it could very well just be Cadsuane herself that will cause the disliking of whatever she has to teach. Either way, that sort of suggests that she hasn't achieved what she's set out to do :).

 

 

Like I said, what Cad's was trying to teach him/them doesn't have to be what he/they learned. He/they definitely learned something valuable from Cad's, it's just not what she was trying to teach him/them and he/they definitely didn't like learning anything from her.

IE: The teaching them to fish but learning to swim example above.

 

 

But hey, it's just my opinion and maybe we shouldn't rule knitting out just yet

Haha, I see what you're saying, but I am not sure I am being clear in my explanation. I don't think Cadsuane has actually taught anything yet. :) So it's not a case of Rand having learned something different from Cadsuane than she intended - but rather she hasn't really caused him to learn anything at all that he could not have from someone else. I am sure Sorilea or Amys would have thought of sending for Tam eventually (I, myself, had the idea before I'd read Winter's Heart!).

 

Also, what makes you feel like she's taught the Asha'man anything? I wish there was a way of making that question sound less attacking lol - I can assure you that my tone in all my posts is one of friendly conversation and polite curiosity. It's always a pleasure discussing books with fellow fans! :D

[Finnssss22]

Also, what makes you feel like she's taught the Asha'man anything? I wish there was a way of making that question sound less attacking lol - I can assure you that my tone in all my posts is one of friendly conversation and polite curiosity. It's always a pleasure discussing books with fellow fans! :D

 

You're not attacking, all good.

 

I don't believe that Cad's was trying to teach the Asha'man the same thing as she was trying to teach Rand.

I think she was trying to teach them respect but in doing so the side effect was that she was actually treating them like men, not just weapons.

So in the end she taught both Rand and the Asha'man the same thing while trying to teach both of them something different.

[Demon_AS]

Also, what makes you feel like she's taught the Asha'man anything? I wish there was a way of making that question sound less attacking lol - I can assure you that my tone in all my posts is one of friendly conversation and polite curiosity. It's always a pleasure discussing books with fellow fans! :D

 

You're not attacking, all good.

 

I don't believe that Cad's was trying to teach the Asha'man the same thing as she was trying to teach Rand.

I think she was trying to teach them respect but in doing so the side effect was that she was actually treating them like men, not just weapons.

So in the end she taught both Rand and the Asha'man the same thing while trying to teach both of them something different.

Ahhh, I think I see.

 

Well, we'll just have to wait another year or so before we find out. Anyone know any good games? :P

[sandoz12]

Sorry bit late getting back to you. You could well be right and when BS said that Min's vision was partly complete it meant that Rand's part was complete but not the Asha'man's. Or it could also mean that Rand still has more to learn as well (since everything he has learnt he shared with his Asha'man and told them to tell others.

 

On which situation it is I don't really know but have a feeling that Rand still has more to learn from Cadsuane. But I could well be wrong.

[MasterAblar]

Perhaps Cadsuane is supposed to teach Rand and the ashaman different things. She's already taught Rand what she was supposed to, even if it was by accident, but I can't see that she has taught the ashaman anything. Sure, maybe she taught the few who hang around Rand to be men and not weapons (again, unintentionally), but that doesn't correspond to the whole of the ashaman.

 

I think that maybe she has to teach the ashaman to trust, or at least work with, the aes sedai. Willingness to work with the aes sedai has to be pretty low right now among the ashaman and the two are going to have to work together for the light to have a chance.

Not sure how anybody is going to get the aes sedai to work with the ashaman though. That seems like a lost cause.