Some Real Tragedy At Last

[HighWiredSith]

Does anyone believe or hope that the final volume will contain at least a moderate amount of real tragedy, main characters, vital characters, killed, relationships destroyed? If this series ends with every single one of the main characters alive, well, married, living happily ever after, Rand having escaped his fate living in a happy Mormon-esque marriage (Big Love in Randland), Perrin and Faile Lord and Lady of the Two Rivers, Matt and Tuon Emperor and Empress of Seanchan, Tom and Moiraine, Nynaeve and Lan, and on and on and on...I think I will burn my copy in protest.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

1. no

 

 

 

2. mormons didn't invent polygamy. it's been more the rule than the exception for most of the world for most of history.

 

 

 

3. burning books is wrong. please just donate them to your local library.

[aross]

There's been a lot of speculation on who will not survive the Last Battle. I would call the following characters "at risk" because they have completed their parts or fulfilled their prophecies. It's normal, though slightly ruthless, to create a character for a function and cast it aside when that function is complete. These characters also may not have tasks following the Last Battle.

 

I am not saying that these are all deaders, only that some of them will be!

 

Siuan and Gareth

Nynaeve and Lan

Min

Rand

Thom and Moiraine

Rodel Ituralde

Davram Bashere

Hard to say which Aiel. Lots of them. Not Aviendha.

Gawyn

Morgase and Tallanvor

Birgitte

 

Probably lots of other characters that are less central to the story.

[aball]

Most likely to die of that list.... probably the generals (Bryne, Bashere, Ituralde). Rand is a dead man, though the question is whether the condition will be permanent. Birgitte is a goner. Probably Lan too. Not sure about the others, although they are certainly expendable. I would be shocked if Moiraine was killed so soon after being rescued, but that would be a nice punch in the gut. Don't think Perrin or Faile have a shot at biting the dust?

[aross]

No, I figured Faile would stay with Perrin for his task. He is the Preserver, he'll rule and help people figure out the new age, whatever that means...

 

But to your question... there is no specific foreshadowing that says Faile lives too. She might be one of the deaders.

[OptimusPrime]

I think a couple of main characters will die, Egwene for sure, No real tragedy though.

 

I think Perrins going to die at the Black Tower.

[Waffleboy]

I hope not. Many have criticized the series for lack of death, it would be rather jarring to suddenly have a ASOIAF style bloodbath in the last book after 14 books without much death.

[Cybertrolloc]

Some of the mid-90s interviews may be tongue in cheek on this, but think it's said more than once that the original cast will survive. (Rand, Mat, Perrin, Ug, Ny, Lan, Mo, Min; probably add Av and El--think it's the compuserve chat, RJ said there would be a heroes ride off into the sunset scene.)

 

Everyone between Perrin/Faile and the Saldea crown = toast is probably a good bet. Can't think of any other "I'm getting too old for this" characters at the moment.

[OptimusPrime]

Lan aint dying. No way man

[Jay Aldridge]

I once believed you had to have a few deaths of characters you cared about to balance out a good book or series. After reading Stephen King's Dark Tower books, I now realize that I was an idiot! Never underestimate the power of a happy ending! I hope they all live.

[sandoz12]

I wouldn't mind if the main three survive (though I think the series would have been better if one of them had died earlier - now there's no point) but I would like quite a few of the secondary characters to die. Would just be wrong for one side to win a major battle without any significant casualties.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing the dark one actually win just to surprise everyone including myself but I really don't think that is going to happen.

[Ferdawoon]

What I dont get it, why keep reading WoT if you obviously don't think it is dark enough for you? Instead of comming to a WoT forum and in effect trying to promote aSoIaF. Just go read that instead.

[aross]

Too much confrontation folks! This is not an argument! Just speculation. There is no right method.

 

A few examples:

 

I used to like reading David Eddings, but found his need to keep everyone alive and have these Shakespearean comedy type endings cheesy. I dropped him eventually.

 

Even though I still read and enjoy A Song of Ice and Fire, I don't understand why so many Starks are dead (or undead Catelyn?). Why connect with protagonists as a reader if the author only plans to cut through these heros like chaff? Heros are supposed to have an arc, aren't they?

 

But sometimes it's necessary to kill off a beloved character. The best recent example comes from Mockingjay, when Prim died near the end. I realized that she had to be sacrificed so that Coin could die. But I had a real emotional response when I read Prim's death.

 

And sometimes it does work when all of the central characters survive until the end. There must be numerous examples including Steven King.

 

As for the fellow that wished the author would kill off Mat, Rand, or Perrin before now (Sandoz); none of them had a completed arc until Towers of Midnight. You could claim that Perrin finished his when he united Andor, the Whitecloaks, and his own army. On the other hand, he has a war to fight and a job to do. You don't just kill off central characters because you want to get some sort of high-priced payoff.

 

As for Rand, his task is nowhere near complete, nor is Mat's.

 

Why don't you ask the many fans of these characters and these books whether a death payoff is more important, or if they prefer to see their stories end? Rand only just found peace, Perrin only just grew up, Mat only just seized responsibility and acted proactively. Don't you want to see what they will do now?

[tkroll]

I once believed you had to have a few deaths of characters you cared about to balance out a good book or series. After reading Stephen King's Dark Tower books, I now realize that I was an idiot! Never underestimate the power of a happy ending! I hope they all live.

 

I have to agree with you on that one!

 

I think Lan might not make it though...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Geez there are some morbid bastards here. (I really should add that this is semi-humourously written)

 

 

Who in their right mind would want to see characters they know and love die?

 

How about I kill one of your family members just to make life a bit more intense? It really seems stupid.

 

Saying that, I think that there is potential for real emotional impact with someone big dying in the end. However, I would hardly say I want them to.

 

What people dont understand about WoT is that the main characters CANT die off. Thats why they are main characters, because they have got to be there in the story. All of them have a place in the pattern, and only now, at the very end, most of them have completed their tasks, so now is the time for them to die.

 

If you actually look at ASOIAF (which I love also) the characters who die are not important at all. Their role was basically to do some stuff and then die, to complicate the plot, or make room for new things.

 

WoT isnt like that. If Mat died, the Shadow would win. If Egwene or Nynaeve died, Shadow = Win.

 

Now, when the game is set and the pieces (most of them) are where they should be, ready to fight the LB, there is potential for death.

[sandoz12]

As for the fellow that wished the author would kill off Mat, Rand, or Perrin before now (Sandoz); none of them had a completed arc until Towers of Midnight. You could claim that Perrin finished his when he united Andor, the Whitecloaks, and his own army. On the other hand, he has a war to fight and a job to do. You don't just kill off central characters because you want to get some sort of high-priced payoff.

 

I was imagining that their arc had been written differently to cater for their death. If an author knows he is going to kill off character x in book 9 then he obviously plans around this.

 

Or a character can be killed before their arc is complete. For a character to die in the supposed 'middle' of their arc just makes the scene all the more powerful and then you get to see who or if anyone will complete what it had been their job to do.

[Ferdawoon]

As for the fellow that wished the author would kill off Mat, Rand, or Perrin before now (Sandoz); none of them had a completed arc until Towers of Midnight. You could claim that Perrin finished his when he united Andor, the Whitecloaks, and his own army. On the other hand, he has a war to fight and a job to do. You don't just kill off central characters because you want to get some sort of high-priced payoff.

 

I was imagining that their arc had been written differently to cater for their death. If an author knows he is going to kill off character x in book 9 then he obviously plans around this.

 

Or a character can be killed before their arc is complete. For a character to die in the supposed 'middle' of their arc just makes the scene all the more powerful and then you get to see who or if anyone will complete what it had been their job to do.

 

Ok, I have not been to every WoT forum since the serie started, last I was on DM RPing my Asha'man was 10 or so years ago, but, why did all of these "ffs, kill someone 3 books ago!" threads happen to start JUST as A Game of Thrones became a TV-show? Why did these threads not appear on a weekly basis 15 years ago when WoT was still "new", RJ was still writing it and there was even a slight chance that this could have happened? I mean, aSoIaF was started not too long after WoT and 15 years ago we would have had at least Ned killed off, and that Mr Dragon guy would have had his 'golden crown' by now, so the whole concept of having every main character killed off should have struck a chord in people to come to all the WoT forums and complain about it.

Or, it is as is oh so common nowadays. As soon as something is considered "better" by someone, they have to come tell everyone else about how crap the things they used to like is.

 

I mean, write to all the other authors as well, how crap was not LotR? The only character who die is Boromir and he have no real purpose in the books at all, except to always be tempted by the ring and then die a "valiant" death. I mean, Tolkien must have been a crap writer because he did not kill off Frodo or Sam, or at LEAST Merry and Peppin! No excitement at all, everyone survive. Dont you just hate when that happens? I mean, Sam should have killed Frodo instead of just cutting his finger off!

 

Just stop trolling and stop reading the serie, donate your books to the local library ASAP and go read some darker fiction if that is what you are after.

 

So what do you say guys and gals? Should we go to a few G.R.R.Martin forums and complain about how crap we think it is and that he should at least learn how to write so he don't have to kill every character to keep some kind of excitement in the serie? Because that is pretty much what the OP is doing here.

 

 

And yes, I admit to just feeding the trolls..

[sandoz12]

As for the fellow that wished the author would kill off Mat, Rand, or Perrin before now (Sandoz); none of them had a completed arc until Towers of Midnight. You could claim that Perrin finished his when he united Andor, the Whitecloaks, and his own army. On the other hand, he has a war to fight and a job to do. You don't just kill off central characters because you want to get some sort of high-priced payoff.

 

I was imagining that their arc had been written differently to cater for their death. If an author knows he is going to kill off character x in book 9 then he obviously plans around this.

 

Or a character can be killed before their arc is complete. For a character to die in the supposed 'middle' of their arc just makes the scene all the more powerful and then you get to see who or if anyone will complete what it had been their job to do.

 

Ok, I have not been to every WoT forum since the serie started, last I was on DM RPing my Asha'man was 10 or so years ago, but, why did all of these "ffs, kill someone 3 books ago!" threads happen to start JUST as A Game of Thrones became a TV-show? Why did these threads not appear on a weekly basis 15 years ago when WoT was still "new", RJ was still writing it and there was even a slight chance that this could have happened? I mean, aSoIaF was started not too long after WoT and 15 years ago we would have had at least Ned killed off, and that Mr Dragon guy would have had his 'golden crown' by now, so the whole concept of having every main character killed off should have struck a chord in people to come to all the WoT forums and complain about it.

Or, it is as is oh so common nowadays. As soon as something is considered "better" by someone, they have to come tell everyone else about how crap the things they used to like is.

 

I mean, write to all the other authors as well, how crap was not LotR? The only character who die is Boromir and he have no real purpose in the books at all, except to always be tempted by the ring and then die a "valiant" death. I mean, Tolkien must have been a crap writer because he did not kill off Frodo or Sam, or at LEAST Merry and Peppin! No excitement at all, everyone survive. Dont you just hate when that happens? I mean, Sam should have killed Frodo instead of just cutting his finger off!

 

Just stop trolling and stop reading the serie, donate your books to the local library ASAP and go read some darker fiction if that is what you are after.

 

So what do you say guys and gals? Should we go to a few G.R.R.Martin forums and complain about how crap we think it is and that he should at least learn how to write so he don't have to kill every character to keep some kind of excitement in the serie? Because that is pretty much what the OP is doing here.

 

 

And yes, I admit to just feeding the trolls..

Well I actually really like the series so won't be giving my books to the local library. Nowhere have I said its a bad series I just thought a major character death would have improved it. Does thinking that make me a troll?

 

As to Game of Thrones, I came from New Zealand and have never seen it only vaguely heard of it.

 

Regarding LOTR - I always thought that was a weakness of the trilogy too. I thought the victory would have been better with someone major dying.

 

But that's just my opinion and unlike you I don't think that people with different ideas are trolls or should stop reading the series.

[Puny]

As for the fellow that wished the author would kill off Mat, Rand, or Perrin before now (Sandoz); none of them had a completed arc until Towers of Midnight. You could claim that Perrin finished his when he united Andor, the Whitecloaks, and his own army. On the other hand, he has a war to fight and a job to do. You don't just kill off central characters because you want to get some sort of high-priced payoff.

 

I was imagining that their arc had been written differently to cater for their death. If an author knows he is going to kill off character x in book 9 then he obviously plans around this.

 

Or a character can be killed before their arc is complete. For a character to die in the supposed 'middle' of their arc just makes the scene all the more powerful and then you get to see who or if anyone will complete what it had been their job to do.

 

Ok, I have not been to every WoT forum since the serie started, last I was on DM RPing my Asha'man was 10 or so years ago, but, why did all of these "ffs, kill someone 3 books ago!" threads happen to start JUST as A Game of Thrones became a TV-show? Why did these threads not appear on a weekly basis 15 years ago when WoT was still "new", RJ was still writing it and there was even a slight chance that this could have happened? I mean, aSoIaF was started not too long after WoT and 15 years ago we would have had at least Ned killed off, and that Mr Dragon guy would have had his 'golden crown' by now, so the whole concept of having every main character killed off should have struck a chord in people to come to all the WoT forums and complain about it.

Or, it is as is oh so common nowadays. As soon as something is considered "better" by someone, they have to come tell everyone else about how crap the things they used to like is.

 

I mean, write to all the other authors as well, how crap was not LotR? The only character who die is Boromir and he have no real purpose in the books at all, except to always be tempted by the ring and then die a "valiant" death. I mean, Tolkien must have been a crap writer because he did not kill off Frodo or Sam, or at LEAST Merry and Peppin! No excitement at all, everyone survive. Dont you just hate when that happens? I mean, Sam should have killed Frodo instead of just cutting his finger off!

 

Just stop trolling and stop reading the serie, donate your books to the local library ASAP and go read some darker fiction if that is what you are after.

 

So what do you say guys and gals? Should we go to a few G.R.R.Martin forums and complain about how crap we think it is and that he should at least learn how to write so he don't have to kill every character to keep some kind of excitement in the serie? Because that is pretty much what the OP is doing here.

 

 

And yes, I admit to just feeding the trolls..

Well I actually really like the series so won't be giving my books to the local library. Nowhere have I said its a bad series I just thought a major character death would have improved it. Does thinking that make me a troll?

 

As to Game of Thrones, I came from New Zealand and have never seen it only vaguely heard of it.

 

Regarding LOTR - I always thought that was a weakness of the trilogy too. I thought the victory would have been better with someone major dying.

 

But that's just my opinion and unlike you I don't think that people with different ideas are trolls or should stop reading the series.

+1

 

I´m in the Let´s kill someone camp! I do like to read darker fiction, that doesn´t mean that I don´t love WoT. I just wished that WoT was a tad darker, I think it would have brought more edge and excitement to the series, but that´s just a matter of personal preferences. With darker I don´t necesserily mean death, how about a main character being turned or the Forsaken doing something really disturbing? I read aSoIaF two years ago and I really liked it. I do think there are too much death in there. Were Jordan has too little GRRM has too much. You don´t get to know the characters enough, and with so much death, death looses it´s edge in the story.

[Niniel]

Like some of you already have said I think some of the characters are going to die in the Last Battle. Rand of course (but will live again, and maybe die again?). Lan will probably die and the same goes for Cadsuane, Alanna and Bashere. There will be some death among the non maincharacters like Sulin, some of the wise ones, asha´mans, aes sedais etc. Perhaps Siuan and Moiraine but now that they have found love I don´t know. Almost every forsaken will die. I think someone will still be alive in the end, most likely Moggy, although I wish it will be Graendal.

 

In another thread someone mentioned Min. She is my favourite character so I don´t want her to die but at the same time it could absolutely be possible.

 

It´s not that I want my favourites to die but it would be more "realistic" if some of them do. I have only read the first two asofai books and I like them but I´m still a bit shocked that so many has died already. I don´t want WoT to be like that, maybe more like Harry Potter. It would be a boring end if everyone was still alive and lived happely ever after.

[mrexperience]

If you analyze what happens in the series, the characters go through some real testing times. As an underlying theme of the story, there is the Borderlander saying : "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain." Perrin could have heard that his WHOLE family had been killed by whitecloaks and made a mad rush at them. Moraine could have given up after months of torture by the foxes.Death can sometimes be cheap, and easyway out for the character. What I like about this series is that RJ has placed his characters through some real heavy BS. Another example is Rand going very close to the dark side towards the end of TGS. GRRM did pretty well with his portrayal of Ned Stark's youngest son who is now crippled but alive. Its all much more riveting than people dying IMHO.

[Suttree]

Does anyone believe or hope that the final volume will contain at least a moderate amount of real tragedy

 

As is if there hasn't been? So just to name one, a real tragedy other than something like the entire Amayar population committing mass suicide?

[Stitch]

Don't worry people! We can have it both ways, we can kill a whole bunch of people off, then say they all got attached to the horn of valere (as if that is so common...) then toot it any time they are needed.... heck if that is too cheap we can rip em out of it Bridgette style... or maybe we will have their double from a Portal Stone World pop out after they died here >.> All they need is some fsking dragonballs.

 

Unfortunately I get the impression that sort of half-assed route to a 100% happy ending is entirely possible; its the same sort of idea that leads to any popular antagonist in Shounen manga suddenly being declared they are a good guy now x.x

GoodGuy "we talked with our fists and I can tell you are really a good guy"

BadBuy? "im sorry, I murdered a bunch of people and tried to kill you too... but I was betrayed by the real bad guy, so hey, friends?"

GoodGuy "sure thing, lets have cake"

[Jimvzyl]

s an underlying theme of the story, there is the Borderlander saying : "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain."

 

This sums it up nicely.

Why bring forward a theme about how easy it would be to just give up and die, and then kill characters off before they finish their arcs?

 

Death is used as an emotional and often tangible obstacle or problem throughout the series, rather than a shock plot development.

 

Perrins family

Perrin having murdered the whitecloaks

Rand letting maidens die and his litany (Moiraine etc etc)

Sentencing that Aiel to death in Cairhien (FoH I think)

Colavaere

In the stone of Tear

The mass murder of Natrin's Barrow

Dumai's Wells

 

etc etc.

 

Yes if someone important dies now that a lot of the arcs are being concluded, it would be fine, but not really necessary in my opinion.

[sandoz12]

s an underlying theme of the story, there is the Borderlander saying : "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain."

 

This sums it up nicely.

Why bring forward a theme about how easy it would be to just give up and die, and then kill characters off before they finish their arcs?

 

Death is used as an emotional and often tangible obstacle or problem throughout the series, rather than a shock plot development.

 

Perrins family

Perrin having murdered the whitecloaks

Rand letting maidens die and his litany (Moiraine etc etc)

Sentencing that Aiel to death in Cairhien (FoH I think)

Colavaere

In the stone of Tear

The mass murder of Natrin's Barrow

Dumai's Wells

 

etc etc.

 

Yes if someone important dies now that a lot of the arcs are being concluded, it would be fine, but not really necessary in my opinion.

 

Fair enough. Now that the series is largely concluded I don't think there is much to gain by a major character dying unless it were to occur right at the start of AMoL (other than Rand who I am expecting to die - but we all know he will come back so it won't make much impact). For maximum effect I would have had a major character die early in the series so the rest of the series you would be worried that any of your other favourite major characters could die unexpectedly.

 

But as you say there was still plenty of tragedy and emotion in the series and its been a great series even without any major character deaths(which to me speaks volumes about how much depth there is to it) and if all the major characters are still alive at the end I will still be happy with it [and not donating my books to the local library:].