Rand's relationship with Egwene

[Kahsm]

There were Aes Sedai in Cairhien, and they seemed to be following the orders of the Dragon Reborn. Worse were the names that trickled out. Some were women who had been in Salidar, among the first to resist Elaida, while others were women known to be loyal to Elaida. No one had mentioned Compulsion aloud that Egwene knew of, but they had to be thinking it. [...]

 

"Siuan, if you see a way to make use of this, I wish you'd tell me. I don't even want to think about using the fact that Rand may have Compelled sisters. I don't want to think about the possibility that he could have." Neither about the possibility that he knew such a repulsive weave, or that he could lay that weave on anyone. [...]

 

Maybe Rand was in company with a Black sister [Cadsuane], or had been. Maybe he had used Compulsion on Aes Sedai. Bad enough on anyone, but somehow worse used on Aes Sedai, more ominous. What was dared against Aes Sedai was ten times, a hundred times, as likely to be used against those who could not defend themselves. Eventually they would have to deal with him, somehow. She had grown up with Rand, yet she could not allow that to influence her. He was the Dragon Reborn, now, the hope of the world and at the same time maybe the single greatest threat the world faced. Maybe? The Seanchan could not do as much damage as the Dragon Reborn. And she was going to use the possibility that he had Compelled sisters. The Amyrlin Seat really was a different woman from that innkeeper's daughter.

Egwene knows Rand is an incredibly strong ta'veren, but this possibility does not even cross her mind. Instead she only thinks about the possibility that Rand might have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai. So I stand by my previous statement: Egwene's tendency to assume the worst of him excludes the possibility of any real friendship.

 

To be completely honest, I'm not sure Egwene would give Rand any slack even if she knew it was Ta'veren-ness. I'd think her position would simply change to "well you shouldn't have asked". And he probably shouldn't have. He should have turned them over to her. But I think both Egwene and Rand avoided each other too much to make that possible, which made that Aes Sedai oath necessary. Though it's understandable that Rand would avoid the WT, because lets not forget, Rand assumed Egwene was a puppet Amyrlin (you could say he assumed the worst of her). Egwene's greatest failing was probably not approaching Rand sooner; but then she's been pretty busy, that's a light criticism.

 

Egwene also did not believe that he had sworn to Elaida back in LoC right after she was raised. So she does not always assume the worst. Though I'd have to say she probably should have worried over it more than she did, but she was a very new leader then.

 

Again, you skip over the important parts.

 

He was the Dragon Reborn, now, the hope of the world and at the same time maybe the single greatest threat the world faced. Maybe?

The part you bolded about the Seanchan is almost out of context without this part. She's just arguing with her friendly thoughts of Rand that he could be more of a threat than the Seanchan. Remember, all this is pre-enlightenment too, so she was very much correct. He almost destroyed the entire borderlander army for light sake!

 

She had grown up with Rand, yet she could not allow that to influence her.

Nope, she was the Amyrlin now and he's the Dragon Reborn, which she explicitly says in the same quote.

 

Most people would likely say Moir is at least more of a friend to Rand than Egwene. But Moir explicitly says she would destroy Rand herself before she let the DO take him. And I doubt that is any less true now than in TEotW. Duty is heavier than a mountain.

[Zentari]

To be completely honest, I'm not sure Egwene would give Rand any slack even if she knew it was Ta'veren-ness. I'd think her position would simply change to "well you shouldn't have asked". And he probably shouldn't have. He should have turned them over to her.

Because it's wrong if it's not good old fashioned blackmail, am I right ?

 

 

But I think both Egwene and Rand avoided each other too much to make that possible, which made that Aes Sedai oath necessary. Though it's understandable that Rand would avoid the WT, because lets not forget, Rand assumed Egwene was a puppet Amyrlin (you could say he assumed the worst of her). Egwene's greatest failing was probably not approaching Rand sooner; but then she's been pretty busy, that's a light criticism.

That's a light excuse more like it.It's the same pathetic excuse that led into the whole black tower situation for Rand.

 

Egwene also did not believe that he had sworn to Elaida back in LoC right after she was raised. So she does not always assume the worst.

Only most times.

 

 

She's just arguing with her friendly thoughts of Rand that he could be more of a threat than the Seanchan.

Friendly ? Sharks love you to death then ?

 

Most people would likely say Moir is at least more of a friend to Rand than Egwene. But Moir explicitly says she would destroy Rand herself before she let the DO take him. And I doubt that is any less true now than in TEotW. Duty is heavier than a mountain.

Which is hilarious , since the wheel without the Dragon is as good as destroyed.Also that STILL shows more friendship than Eg's did.Do you know why ? Because Mor says she will destroy him if he turns to the shadow,Eg is worried if he used compulsion on her sisters.She is correct about the dangerous part though,then again that isn't saying much.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Zentari

[rand4747]

I think he didn't add her on purpose. He obviously doesn't trust her and really has no reason to.

 

He proved his distrust when it becomes clear that he manipulated her into gathering a resistance against him.

He obviously knew that she would go against him and would refuse to work with him.

I don't really see that as mistrust so much as awareness. For example, I think that Rand trusts Elayne, but is also aware that when it comes down to it, Elayne will put Andor ahead of him. He's fine with that, and he respects her for it. He's similar to that himself in a lot of ways. Along those lines, he's aware that Egwene will put the White Tower ahead of him, and he's aware (and somewhat bemused I think) by an awareness that she'll naturally oppose him, like saidin and saidar.

 

 

Elayne wont oppose Rand for the sake of opposing. Except for her aparent deathwish (going off hunting black ajah and getting herself cought all the time) she actually works with other people, Egwene on the other hand does not, she uses and conflicts with everyone.

[randsc]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

[EvilSocrates]

I think he didn't add her on purpose. He obviously doesn't trust her and really has no reason to.

 

He proved his distrust when it becomes clear that he manipulated her into gathering a resistance against him.

He obviously knew that she would go against him and would refuse to work with him.

I don't really see that as mistrust so much as awareness. For example, I think that Rand trusts Elayne, but is also aware that when it comes down to it, Elayne will put Andor ahead of him. He's fine with that, and he respects her for it. He's similar to that himself in a lot of ways. Along those lines, he's aware that Egwene will put the White Tower ahead of him, and he's aware (and somewhat bemused I think) by an awareness that she'll naturally oppose him, like saidin and saidar.

 

 

Elayne wont oppose Rand for the sake of opposing. Except for her aparent deathwish (going off hunting black ajah and getting herself cought all the time) she actually works with other people, Egwene on the other hand does not, she uses and conflicts with everyone.

 

*Stirs the pot*

 

Hey, remember that time that super-cooperative Elayne threatened to kill Perrin even though (1) he had a huge army that could destroy Camelyn, (2) it would alienate Rand, (3) She knows he is a Ta'veren very important to the light, (4) Perrin was mostly just defending the homes that she neglected, (5) her reason for doing so was because she had some sort of birthright to their loyalty because her great great grandmother may have ruled over then or something (6) murder is bad (7) it would mean war with Saldea?

 

I do!

 

You can't really fault Egwene for being politically interested and manipulative and then hold up Elayne as an example. They are both politicians advancing the well-being of the state they are in charge of (to the best of their abilities). The only thing that's weird about Egwene is that she has every reason to resent the White Tower and no reason to be so loyal to it and think it is such a great institution. Once you swallow the "Egwene thinks the WT is a great force for good that has just been led astray but is very deserving of respect and loyalty" pill, most of her actions are very understandable. Many Egwene haters simply can't quite swallow that pill because they, personally, hate Aes Sedai so much. If Egwene were acting in the Aiel's best interest (a culture that everyone loves and that Egwene has reason to), she would get a ton more slack.

 

Imagine if her response had been "He cannot break the seals, that would mean the death of the Aiel!" or "He has made the Wise Ones kneel and swear to him, he must be abusing his power and they should be free." I doubt she would get so much flack.

 

I mean, I hate Aes Sedai as much as anybody (well, a bunch anyhow). I think they are miserable arrogant failures. The only Ajahs that actually do anything are the Red (who make up for it by being straw man villain man hating jerks) and the Brown (WHAT DOES MAGIC HAVE TO DO WITH BEING A SCHOLAR, IT DOES NOT MAKE YOU SMARTER YOU DORKS, FOUND A REAL COLLEGE). But EGWENE doesn't think that, probably because Robert Jordan didn't either. I think they are supposed to be viewed as arrogant and misguided, but ultimately deserving of respect and a great force for good. They just were not handled well by the author.

 

*puts away his stirring spoon*

[anotherfingolfin]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

It certainly would have been within their rights. The sheer gall of the Aes Sedai to be upset by this absolutely astounds me. You sent a war party to murder every man in the Black Tower and then you are upset that they dare bond those women and make them obey? You should have got on your knees and thanked the Asha'man for having the mercy not to slaughter every Aes Sedai on the spot. Not only did they not kill them, but as far as we've seen the prisoners have been fairly treated. And despite those that grumble that every thread is an Egwene bashing thread, it's a little hard to discuss this without mentioning that it is through Egwene's incredibly moronic thoughts on the subject that we are privy to the White Tower reaction. I don't think it's bashing to point out that she is being quite stupid and unfair about the situation. Then, later, Rand offers to allow Aes Sedai to bond an equal number of Asha'man (despite the fact that it was the Aes Sedai and not his men that were in the wrong to start with) and the Aes Sedai actually have the gall to believe that being on equal footing with the Asha'man isn't enough compensation for their terrible deed of sparing Aes Sedai lives. How can you do anything but shake your head at this undeserved ego-tism and idiocy?

 

Pretty much. That really bugged me. You forgot to mention the fact that the AS were still divided then, and Rand's people had caught Tower AS. He still let's Egwene's women Bond his guys. I mean, if that's not a straight up hand of friendship, (overdoing it, under the circumstances, in my opinion), I dunno what is. The reaction was beyond disgusting.

[MasterAblar]

The Asha'man shouldn't have used Compulsion on the Aes Sedai who invaded their homes seeking to gentle and kill them. They should have killed them all. And no, I'm not joking, not even a little bit.

 

It certainly would have been within their rights. The sheer gall of the Aes Sedai to be upset by this absolutely astounds me. You sent a war party to murder every man in the Black Tower and then you are upset that they dare bond those women and make them obey? You should have got on your knees and thanked the Asha'man for having the mercy not to slaughter every Aes Sedai on the spot. Not only did they not kill them, but as far as we've seen the prisoners have been fairly treated. And despite those that grumble that every thread is an Egwene bashing thread, it's a little hard to discuss this without mentioning that it is through Egwene's incredibly moronic thoughts on the subject that we are privy to the White Tower reaction. I don't think it's bashing to point out that she is being quite stupid and unfair about the situation. Then, later, Rand offers to allow Aes Sedai to bond an equal number of Asha'man (despite the fact that it was the Aes Sedai and not his men that were in the wrong to start with) and the Aes Sedai actually have the gall to believe that being on equal footing with the Asha'man isn't enough compensation for their terrible deed of sparing Aes Sedai lives. How can you do anything but shake your head at this undeserved ego-tism and idiocy?

 

Pretty much. That really bugged me. You forgot to mention the fact that the AS were still divided then, and Rand's people had caught Tower AS. He still let's Egwene's women Bond his guys. I mean, if that's not a straight up hand of friendship, (overdoing it, under the circumstances, in my opinion), I dunno what is. The reaction was beyond disgusting.

 

I know I was pissed when Rand made the offer for ashaman to be bonded. And even moreso when the aes sedai acted as though it was their due. Romanda barely even seemed to show any commeraderie for the bonded aes sedai, just because they were Tower aes sedai! Absolutely despicable.

[sleepinghour]

Though it's understandable that Rand would avoid the WT, because lets not forget, Rand assumed Egwene was a puppet Amyrlin (you could say he assumed the worst of her).

How is that assuming the worst of Egwene? She was raised to be a puppet Amyrlin, as anyone even remotely familiar with Aes Sedai could have guessed. It's also more than unlikely than an 18-year-old girl, no matter how intelligent and strong-willed, would have been able to turn the tables on the other Aes Sedai within a month or two after having been raised.

 

Again, you skip over the important parts.

Bolding important lines in the text is hardly "skipping over" the rest; I included all relevant sections so people could read everything within context and make up their own minds. One thing I did exclude from the quote for the sake of brevity was Egwene having a headache at the same time, which may or may not be relevant depending on whether you believe Halima Compelled Egwene to think badly of Rand. Which would be nicely ironic; Egwene thinking about Rand possibly Compelling Aes Sedai while in reality she is the Compelled Aes Sedai...

 

She's just arguing with her friendly thoughts of Rand that he could be more of a threat than the Seanchan. Remember, all this is pre-enlightenment too, so she was very much correct. He almost destroyed the entire borderlander army for light sake!

Friendly thoughts? Keep in mind that Egwene hates and fears the Seanchan more than anyone else, and in CoT she's well aware that they've invaded Altara and are collaring any channelers they can find. So for Egwene of all people to think they couldn't do as much damage as Rand is pretty telling. And no one, not Egwene or Rand himself, could have anticipated that Rand would end up losing it completely later on as a result of extreme circumstances (like the incident with Semirhage and Min), so I don't buy that as an excuse.

 

Most people would likely say Moir is at least more of a friend to Rand than Egwene. But Moir explicitly says she would destroy Rand herself before she let the DO take him. And I doubt that is any less true now than in TEotW. Duty is heavier than a mountain.

I wouldn't exactly call Moiraine a friend to Rand, any more than Cadsuane is his friend. An ally and advisor, yes, but he was only important to her because he was the Dragon Reborn, the most important tool to use against the Shadow. Which is not to say Moiraine wouldn't have been pleased to see him survive the Last Battle, but that was never her focus. A friend, IMO, is someone who cares about Rand as a person whether or not he's the Dragon Reborn/Car'a'carn/Coramoor.

[yoniy0]

For those of you who think Egwene was never a good friend to Rand (or vice versa), I remind you that she was the only one of his friends to accept his channeling. Though it obviously pained her greatly, the very first thing she said to him upon learning of it was "I'm sorry, Rand. I'm sorry. I don't care. Truly, I don't." Even Nynaeve only had this to say for herself: "you are still Rand al'Thor of Emond's Field. But, the Light help me, the Light help us all, you are too dangerous, Rand."

Think for a minute what that would mean to him, in a world so biased against male channelers. He just discovered he's to be an outcast, but here she was, accepting him nonetheless.

Moreover, throughout TGH she worried about him and longed to help him (when she saw Lanfear in her Dreams).

And for his part, a mere glance at her made him ride into a city being wrecked by battle. Part of that was the Pattern's pull, for sure, but I'm certain he felt something for her. Mat had also said that "saving Egwene isn't wasting time", true, but that only serves as a measure of the friendship between all these people, I believe.

Edited June 7, 2011 by yoniy0
Removed comments about posts no longer in this topic

[Puny]

This is fascinating (truly), but a little unrelated to the original question (though we now have about 2 pages' worth of discussion about Compulsion - almost as much as we had about Egwene and Rand). Nevertheless, could I suggest a return to the issue at hand?

 

For those of you who think Egwene was never a good friend to Rand (or vice versa), I remind you that she was the only one of his friends to accept his channeling. Though it obviously pained her greatly, the very first thing she said to him upon learning of it was "I'm sorry, Rand. I'm sorry. I don't care. Truly, I don't." Even Nynaeve only had this to say for herself: "you are still Rand al'Thor of Emond's Field. But, the Light help me, the Light help us all, you are too dangerous, Rand."

Think for a minute what that would mean to him, in a world so biased against male channelers. He just discovered he's to be an outcast, but here she was, accepting him nonetheless.

Moreover, throughout TGH she worried about him and longed to help him (when she saw Lanfear in her Dreams).

And for his part, a mere glance at her made him ride into a city being wrecked by battle. Part of that was the Pattern's pull, for sure, but I'm certain he felt something for her. Mat had also said that "saving Egwene isn't wasting time", true, but that only serves as a measure of the friendship between all these people, I believe.

 

Yoniyo... you destroy all the fun. =/ This is more fascinating then the usal Egwene is awesome/Egwene is dumby discussions we fans have.

 

EvilSocrates: The example with the pedohile was really interesting and true. I assume that if you would use Compulsion that way that would indeed increase the freedom for said pedophile. But it isn´t only a question of freedom, as you said before, it depends on what values the sisters have. For example, one Sister could very well find that being under Compulsion to a nice Asha´man as Logain and serve and obey him would be better then beind dead. Light, some sisters would do that willingly. Other sisters would rather kill themselves then be the slaves of Asha´man. But with Compulsion they don´t even have a choice. They have to do it, no matter what. About the binder and how it was used during the AoL: I dk if they only bound the serious meanies; like rapists, killers and so on, or if they did it for lesser crimes, like thefth, assault and so on. And then there is the interesting discussion when using the binder is "right" Is it when the criminal has stolen a sho-car or when he has beaten someone into a pulp, or is it every single crime?

 

Yoniyo... again: It is true that Egwene cared abit for Rand in the beginning but that quickly changed into, maybe not into open hostility but certainly into "I see no Rand, I see man that can go crazy, he is dangerous" to "Mad Dragon that is gonna destroy the world, you need to be leashed and controlled by me for the good of mankind." It changed quickly and we don´t get to see that she thinks one thought that he is somewhat kind or w/e... she too readily imo believes all the rumours and whisperes.

[yoniy0]

Yoniyo... you destroy all the fun. =/

Wow, cool. I wonder how 'destroyer of fun' would translate to the Old Tongue.

I might use that as a sig, with your blessing.

 

Yoniyo... again: It is true that Egwene cared abit for Rand in the beginning but that quickly changed into, maybe not into open hostility but certainly into "I see no Rand, I see man that can go crazy, he is dangerous" to "Mad Dragon that is gonna destroy the world, you need to be leashed and controlled by me for the good of mankind." It changed quickly and we don´t get to see that she thinks one thought that he is somewhat kind or w/e... she too readily imo believes all the rumours and whisperes.

Good, you remind me of something else I wanted to say. Don't you guys know anyone that, when they tell you something, you react in a way you wouldn't if it came from anyone else? Many react that way to their parents and older siblings, for example. It's natural. You first asserted your identity by opposing them, so you get 'stuck' in that role. In much the same way, Rand represent to Egwene her old self, the one who had no say over her own life. She has a knee-jerk reaction to him, that's why Nynaeve and Elayne can consider the wisdom in his actions much more easily than she. I'd fault her for not getting past that, but as I myself snapped at my mother the other day for little to no reason (well, she did ask me a question I've answered several times before, and I do hate repeating myself, but she didn't deserve it nonetheless), I feel I don't really have the moral high-ground here, if you know what I mean.

 

Of course, it's the measure of RJ's writing that I just made that argument.

Edited June 7, 2011 by yoniy0
Removed comments about posts no longer in this topic.

[yoniy0]

This thread used to contain quite a few posts I felt didn't relate to its stated topic. They can now be found in one of the following threads:

1. Bonding and the merits of Compulstion.

2. Aes Sedai and the White Tower.

 

Please feel free to continue your discussion of Rand's relationship with Egwene here, and sorry for the inconvenience. The other threads are already open for business.

 

PS Logain's Pet, I couldn't split your post above, so it stays here, unless you want me to move it as well.

[solarz]

Egwene is, simply put, Rand's ex-girlfriend. The way they still *think* they know each other, the way they rile each other up every time they talk, it's all perfectly clear.

[Maedelin]

3 hours ago, solarz said:

Egwene is, simply put, Rand's ex-girlfriend. The way they still *think* they know each other, the way they rile each other up every time they talk, it's all perfectly clear.

 

(Spoilers ahead, be warned!)

 

And yet, when Egwene died in The Last Battle, Rand was devastated.  She actually had to speak to him from beyond the veil of death (Good thing he was in an area where reality was very weak) and help him to truly let the names that burdened his soul go.

[solarz]

16 hours ago, Maedelin said:

 

(Spoilers ahead, be warned!)

 

And yet, when Egwene died in The Last Battle, Rand was devastated.  She actually had to speak to him from beyond the veil of death (Good thing he was in an area where reality was very weak) and help him to truly let the names that burdened his soul go.

 

Well, we have to keep in mind that they're not ordinary ex's, they're ex's that grew up together in a small village.

[Maedelin]

20 hours ago, Maedelin said:

 

(Spoilers ahead, be warned!)

 

And yet, when Egwene died in The Last Battle, Rand was devastated.  She actually had to speak to him from beyond the veil of death (Good thing he was in an area where reality was very weak) and help him to truly let the names that burdened his soul go.

 

3 hours ago, solarz said:

 

Well, we have to keep in mind that they're not ordinary ex's, they're ex's that grew up together in a small village.

 

Yes.  And I think that shows that Rand does care about Egwene.  I think, perhaps, he did not assume he had to put her in that list of people only because if he listed everyone, it might've gotten ridiculous.  Thom nearly killed himself in tEotW fighting a Fade.  He wasn't on that list either.

 

In tGH, Rand refused to go to Verin with the rest, instead stating he would go back to Falme for Egwene. (Mat did too, including crying that "freeing Egwene" wasn't a "waste of time". (I did my notation there badly, please forgive)

 

I mean, Egwene should've been included, Thom too, but they weren't.  I'd honestly chalk it up to writer's forgetfulness, just like how in Book 5 it was noted that Galad cared for Nynaeve, when it was very clear throughout the books he had a soft spot for Egwene.  My arguments aside, I really think this is all just oversight.

[solarz]

1 hour ago, Maedelin said:

 

 

Yes.  And I think that shows that Rand does care about Egwene.  I think, perhaps, he did not assume he had to put her in that list of people only because if he listed everyone, it might've gotten ridiculous.  Thom nearly killed himself in tEotW fighting a Fade.  He wasn't on that list either.

 

In tGH, Rand refused to go to Verin with the rest, instead stating he would go back to Falme for Egwene. (Mat did too, including crying that "freeing Egwene" wasn't a "waste of time". (I did my notation there badly, please forgive)

 

I mean, Egwene should've been included, Thom too, but they weren't.  I'd honestly chalk it up to writer's forgetfulness, just like how in Book 5 it was noted that Galad cared for Nynaeve, when it was very clear throughout the books he had a soft spot for Egwene.  My arguments aside, I really think this is all just oversight.

 

I think there's no doubt that Rand cares about Egwene. The people he named were not meant to be an exhaustive list, just the people who have had the most influence on his upbringing and mental well-being.