I would like insight into Coumin and Balefire

[jshahmiran]

Hi all new here, nice to meet you all, so I am not sure if this has been discussed or not, I looked for a bit but found nothing on these two topics.

 

1) In TSR chapter 26 Rand learns that Coumin, his distant relative, had given up the way of the leaf very early in the breaking. This is interesting to me because he is described as a little off (how so?) (Why mention this?) Could Coumin's forsaking of the way of the leaf be an earlier breaking of the Aiel then even that of the tinker's separation, perhaps our red veiled Aiel (unlikly).

 

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

[FossMaNo1]

Welcome to the forum!

1) In TSR chapter 26 Rand learns that Coumin, his distant relative, had given up the way of the leaf very early in the breaking. This is interesting to me because he is described as a little off (how so?) (Why mention this?) Could Coumin's forsaking of the way of the leaf be an earlier breaking of the Aiel then even that of the tinker's separation, perhaps our red veiled Aiel (unlikly).

I though it was revealed in the very next scene that Coumin ended up off because he was there (or at least nearby) when his mistress, Lanfear, opened the Bore and released the DO. I thought it was implied that he had kinda lost faith in life because of his mistress' failings and the general public's attitude toward her anyone associated with her. I suppose you could call Coumin's actions an early "forsaking of teh Way of the Leaf," but not in the same way the Aiel did later during the Breaking.

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

The DO wants to tear the Wheel off the Pattern so He can remake the pattern in His image. My take on balefire is even the DO does not want it used and even He sees the danger in it. Balefire completely destroys threads in the pattern. If the DO wants to remake the Pattern in His image, He needs threads to work woth--if they're all balefired He's left with nothing (after all, He's not the Creator and cannot recreate threads).

[mb]

A number of threads discussed the balefire thing.

Primary wish of the Dark One I would guess is the conversion of the Light's champion.

And a number of people pointed that the Dark side wanted something left to rule.

[Feral]

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

 

Firstly, the big unnoticed thing has been revealed. Second, while balefire may serve the DO's goals, the Forsaken don't know what those goals are (apart from Moridin) so that is why they are reluctant to use it. They believe that the DO simply wants to rule the whole world and have them serving and ruling beneath him.

[mb]

Could you link to where it was revealed?

[jshahmiran]

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

 

Firstly, the big unnoticed thing has been revealed. Second, while balefire may serve the DO's goals, the Forsaken don't know what those goals are (apart from Moridin) so that is why they are reluctant to use it. They believe that the DO simply wants to rule the whole world and have them serving and ruling beneath him.

 

Could you link to this reveal? As far as I can tell from the big unoticed thing sticky it has yet to be.

[Aquarius]

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

 

Firstly, the big unnoticed thing has been revealed. Second, while balefire may serve the DO's goals, the Forsaken don't know what those goals are (apart from Moridin) so that is why they are reluctant to use it. They believe that the DO simply wants to rule the whole world and have them serving and ruling beneath him.

 

Could you link to this reveal? As far as I can tell from the big unoticed thing sticky it has yet to be.

The Forsaken (other than Moridin) want to rule the current world. not destroy it (and be destroyed in the process). They probably realised during the WoP that there would be no world left for them to rule if they kept using balefire.

[Feral]

It was Mat's ashenderei (sp) getting him out of ToG.

[jshahmiran]

It was Mat's ashenderei (sp) getting him out of ToG.

 

Intresting but not all that earth shattering if that is the case.

[Feral]

Yeah I think that's what most people felt.

[Terez]

Second first...

 

2) Balefire as we all know unravels the pattern that is why during the war of power both sides choose not to use it. This is strange to me because why would those following the shadow not want to use Balefire? Is it not the great lord’s goal to unravel the pattern? I think there is something important going on here it seems that the followers of the shadow seem to be going against the wishes of their dark lord. This can be somewhat confirmed by the fact that the great lord kills many of the chosen because he is suspicious, (of what?) WH 13. It seems the use of Balefire is one of the Great Lords goals. This can be seen in the LofC prologue when he asks Demandred to use it. I don’t know how this is important but it seems to be. Perhaps this is the big unnoticed thing?

Ishamael/Moridin is the only one of the Forsaken who actually believes that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, though others might be following orders to use balefire now. No doubt they think it will simply make the Pattern weak enough for the Dark One to break free, and that then they will rule forever. Two quotes:

 

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

 

Q: Aren't the Forsaken already ...

RJ: No. They're not immortal.

Q: Do they know that?

RJ: Yes, they know that.

Q: But they believe they are immortal.

RJ: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality. And they believe this because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life. Give the dead new bodies. Transfer souls from a dying body into a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this. So they know that can be done. So it's not as though they are believing something, somebody just walked up to you and said "I can make you immortal if you go out and do this, kill and do awful deeds". They've seen him, they have seen these incredible things done. So they have reason to believe.

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

So that's that. Now the first second...

 

1) In TSR chapter 26 Rand learns that Coumin, his distant relative, had given up the way of the leaf very early in the breaking. This is interesting to me because he is described as a little off (how so?) (Why mention this?) Could Coumin's forsaking of the way of the leaf be an earlier breaking of the Aiel then even that of the tinker's separation, perhaps our red veiled Aiel (unlikly).

I thought it was revealed in the very next scene that Coumin ended up off because he was there (or at least nearby) when his mistress, Lanfear, opened the Bore and released the DO. I thought it was implied that he had kinda lost faith in life because of his mistress' failings and the general public's attitude toward her anyone associated with her. I suppose you could call Coumin's actions an early "forsaking of the Way of the Leaf," but not in the same way the Aiel did later during the Breaking.

Not quite. Coumin went nuts because the world went nuts. His grandfather Charn had told everyone that Lanfear wasn't always evil, because Charn had served Mierin back before the Bore was drilled, and he probably thought she wasn't too bad. Which was probably true for the most part, so long as Lews Therin wasn't involved.

 

So, over a hundred years after the Bore was drilled, Coumin was at the seed-singing when it was announced that the Bore had been sealed. On the way back to find Charn, he was attacked by a person in the streets who accused him of being a servant of the Dark One because of Charn's stories about Lanfear, and said they would do the same to him that they'd done to Charn. So Coumin went running to the inn where they were staying, and found Charn hanged. Needless to say, he was a little bit traumatized. Next we hear, at least seventy years later, Coumin's son Jonai is embarrassed because everyone believes that the Aiel served Lews Therin, who by then was considered by many to be nearly as evil as the Dark One. We're meant to assume that Coumin tried to change the stories before it was known that Lews Therin had gone insane, leading to the phrase 'Children of the Dragon' (a name given to them by the people - not a name they adopted for themselves).

 

It's confusing because it's all backwards, but I think most hardcore fans have probably read it backwards (forwards) at least once just for better clarity.

 

Also, I just mentioned this to Linda on Twitter the other day. On 13th Depository (see reference library link in my sig), she has articles for character and name parallels, and for major characters she does a whole article for one character. She has separate ones for Rand and Lews Therin. On Lews Therin and Lanfear she points out that they are parallels for Adam and Lilith respectively, and she notes that they don't have 'evil children'. So it occurred to me that the Jinn (Lilith's children with Adam) are a parallel to the Jenn (which has occurred to me before, but I never really thought about it). So it's kinda interesting that the Jenn probably were always aware that the 'Children of the Dragon' thing just wasn't true (like Jonai was aware of it), but when the fighting Aiel broke off from the Da'shain, they adopted the name with pride, and they began to call the Da'shain Aiel the "Jenn" (only true) Aiel out of respect (though that respect waned over the generations as the original spirit was lost in the pride of the protectors). And I'm thinking maybe all this has something to do with the whole drama over the siswai'aman (spears owned by the Dragon), and why no one will talk about them (though it might just be the implications of ownership). But basically, they became the 'Children of the Dragon' so that people would forget about the overblown connection to Lanfear.

 

So, Linda pointed out that the world where the White Witch came from (in The Magician's Nephew, when Digory and Polly accidentally set her free) was called Charn. The White Witch was one of the Jinn (and evil, of course).

 

It was Mat's ashenderei (sp) getting him out of ToG.

Interesting but not all that earth shattering if that is the case.

Yeah I think that's what most people felt.

It was never intended to be earth-shattering. It was just a big deal for Brandon (and for the old-timers) because there are so few clues planted in the early books that we haven't puzzled out (though we might have discarded the true theory once we puzzled it out - kinda like Verin, but not really). Anyway, the ashandarei never made sense. We knew it didn't make sense, but we didn't know what to make of it. We should have been able to figure out that it would be his way to escape them, though. We also had other clues, like the fact that RJ said the 'Finns couldn't affect the outside world. They had to literally toss him out - on the ashandarei. They could have just opened a door for him, but that would have kept them from trying to kill him, and they get a kick out of things like taking their price in the process of granting a wish.

 

It wasn't exactly unnoticed, but it was a big unsolved mystery, and one that we didn't put much effort into solving. If you note the original context of Brandon's comments, it's clear enough that's all he was saying. There were so many things that were easily predictable about Ghenjei that most people concentrated on those things (like the music, fire and iron thing - which turned out to be no big deal and not enough to guarantee victory). Olver was a red herring that most old-timers weren't quite daft enough to fall for, especially after KOD (and most old-timers accepted the third person would be Farstrider since he'd volunteered and it was a good place for him to die). The hardcore tended to ignore the obvious (personally I hated music/fire/iron theories and/or discussions and tended to avoid them like the plague because there was nothing really to discuss there - Thom and fireworks were just too obvious) and instead we concentrated on Moiraine and Lanfear, what the hell happened to them, how did the Warder bond get severed, would Moiraine be reduced in the Power as well, or stilled, and what was up with the 'Finns' connection to Mat, and how the hell was Thom going to get Mat to go, what were they going to ask for, would they even get to ask for anything, did Moiraine and Lanfear get to ask for anything, etc.

[Southpaw89]

Ishamael/Moridin is the only one of the Forsaken who actually believes that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, though others might be following orders to use balefire now. No doubt they think it will simply make the Pattern weak enough for the Dark One to break free, and that then they will rule forever.

 

Isn't there a theory out there that says that Demandred may be out destroying that pattern with balefire and that his orders came from the DO himself?

[Demiandre]

Ishamael/Moridin is the only one of the Forsaken who actually believes that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, though others might be following orders to use balefire now. No doubt they think it will simply make the Pattern weak enough for the Dark One to break free, and that then they will rule forever.

 

Isn't there a theory out there that says that Demandred may be out destroying that pattern with balefire and that his orders came from the DO himself?

THe fact that Demandred is using Balefire at the DO's command is not a theory, but a fact. We see the DO askingthe question to Demandred in the Prologue of LoC...

 

The fact that he is wildly using balefire to destroy the Pattern is another thing, though. It is unlikely IMO. Well, it is different from the War of Power, where huge amount of Balefire were used by numerous channelers, but it still destoy their chances of having a palpable world to rule upon. If the Pattern become too thin, reality itself will unravel. I don't think any Forsaken except Moridin would be daring to use it hugely.

 

And I would like to point out that Moridin doesn't believe the Dark One is going to destroy the Patterb. He doesn't just believe in it. He knows it and has faith in it. It's quite the same, but the implications aren't the same IMO.

[jshahmiran]

Thanks for the reply you have some great stuff in there.

 

 

It was never intended to be earth-shattering. It was just a big deal for Brandon (and for the old-timers)

 

I have one question, how do you define (old-timers)? It can be interpreted in two ways those who have been posting on dragonmount forever or those that have been reading since the beginning. I certainly do not fall into the old-timer whom is a poster on Dragonmount although I have haunted the page as an observer for years. I have been reading since The Great Hunt so I would fall into the category of an old timer in that sense. I have been reading some of the posts about the Mystery and my interest was piqued enough to make me think about the topic, but not enough to do a ton of research on it. Yet what I did read made it look like it would be a much bigger deal; thier was a whole sticky set up for it after all and it is mentioned on other webpages, then what it turned out to be.

[capuga]

I have one question, how do you define (old-timers)? It can be interpreted in two ways those who have been posting on dragonmount forever or those that have been reading since the beginning. I certainly do not fall into the old-timer whom is a poster on Dragonmount although I have haunted the page as an observer for years. I have been reading since The Great Hunt so I would fall into the category of an old timer in that sense. I have been reading some of the posts about the Mystery and my interest was piqued enough to make me think about the topic, but not enough to do a ton of research on it. Yet what I did read made it look like it would be a much bigger deal; thier was a whole sticky set up for it after all and it is mentioned on other webpages, then what it turned out to be.

 

Terez can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she is refering to people that are long time posters/lurkers on the fansites like this, Theoryland, or Wotmania. People that have been discussing and disecting theories for years. People that have just been long time readers may not know all the theories/discussions that have taken place if they haven't been on the message boards much. And I say posters OR lurkers because there are some people (like myself) that may not have posted till recently but have been on the boards reading the discussions for years.

[jshahmiran]

I have one question, how do you define (old-timers)? It can be interpreted in two ways those who have been posting on dragonmount forever or those that have been reading since the beginning. I certainly do not fall into the old-timer whom is a poster on Dragonmount although I have haunted the page as an observer for years. I have been reading since The Great Hunt so I would fall into the category of an old timer in that sense. I have been reading some of the posts about the Mystery and my interest was piqued enough to make me think about the topic, but not enough to do a ton of research on it. Yet what I did read made it look like it would be a much bigger deal; thier was a whole sticky set up for it after all and it is mentioned on other webpages, then what it turned out to be.

 

Terez can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that she is refering to people that are long time posters/lurkers on the fansites like this, Theoryland, or Wotmania. People that have been discussing and disecting theories for years. People that have just been long time readers may not know all the theories/discussions that have taken place if they haven't been on the message boards much. And I say posters OR lurkers because there are some people (like myself) that may not have posted till recently but have been on the boards reading the discussions for years.

 

I kind of figured that was the direction just want it clearified.

[Terez]

Yes, Mark Grayson is correct. There are some people who have been reading WoT for 20 years and have read it as many times who still think Olver is Gaidal Cain and Taim is Demandred. Reading the books is one thing - the fan forums are like a hive mind that you can tap into if you read them long enough.

 

Ishamael/Moridin is the only one of the Forsaken who actually believes that the Dark One is going to destroy the Pattern, though others might be following orders to use balefire now. No doubt they think it will simply make the Pattern weak enough for the Dark One to break free, and that then they will rule forever.

 

Isn't there a theory out there that says that Demandred may be out destroying that pattern with balefire and that his orders came from the DO himself?

THe fact that Demandred is using Balefire at the DO's command is not a theory, but a fact.

No, it's just a theory. Many people believe that the Dark One was just testing Demandred's faithfulness by asking him that. We know that someone is using balefire to unravel the Pattern, but we don't know for sure that it's Demandred.

 

And I would like to point out that Moridin doesn't believe the Dark One is going to destroy the Patterb. He doesn't just believe in it. He knows it and has faith in it. It's quite the same, but the implications aren't the same IMO.

Do you have anything to back that up? The quote I already provided says otherwise. He might not believe that the Dark One will be successful this time, but he at least acknowledges that this is the Dark One's goal, and he believes that his eventual victory 'is assured'. Brandon has backed this up in interview.

[jemron]

Many people are confused about the DO's intentions. He does not want to destroy the Pattern and re-create it in his image. He just tells his followers that so that they use greed/selfishness/etc to do his bidding. Moridin is one of the very few who really knows the DO's intentions: He wants to destroy all reality. He wants to destroy the Pattern so that there is nothing left. There will be NO world to live on if the DO wins. If the Forsaken really knew that, they wouldn't be so viscous about trying to become nae'blis.

[EvilSocrates]

Many people are confused about the DO's intentions. He does not want to destroy the Pattern and re-create it in his image. He just tells his followers that so that they use greed/selfishness/etc to do his bidding. Moridin is one of the very few who really knows the DO's intentions: He wants to destroy all reality. He wants to destroy the Pattern so that there is nothing left. There will be NO world to live on if the DO wins. If the Forsaken really knew that, they wouldn't be so viscous about trying to become nae'blis.

 

Not necessarily. I'm not sure Moridin thinks that the DO is going to try to destroy all reality. He just thinks its stupid to think that the DO will not destroy the world as humans know it. Whatever becomes of reality after the DO wins, it will not contain human beings, Forsaken or otherwise. Or so is his view (I think). For example, Moridin could believe that the DO wants to turn the world into a ball of burning pitch, or a chaotic maw that has no order, or any number of evil incarnate type of things, and still be consistent.

 

The real problem with Mordin is that his great philosophical argument doesn't work at all. He claims that, since there is some chance that the DO might win, and the fight has been and will go on forever, the DO will eventually win. Obviously, his first premise is in tension with his second. If the DO CAN actually win, and the fight really was/is eternal, then he should have won in the distant past. Thus, it seems that the DO actually can't win, or that the wheel actually hasn't been spinning forever. But then, we are told that the DO was bound "at the time of creation," which doesn't make sense with the rest of the cosmology either. That's what you get when you mix western creation myths with eternal recurrence, I guess...

[FarShainMael]

This.^^^

 

PS: Bear in mind that 'at the time of creation' is the Creator's timeframe, not that of His creation.

[Jon Paul]

We know that someone is using balefire to unravel the Pattern, but we don't know for sure that it's Demandred.

 

We do ?

[Terez]

We know that someone is using balefire to unravel the Pattern, but we don't know for sure that it's Demandred.

 

We do ?

Yup, Brandon sideways-endorsed the theory that the Pattern is unraveling because of balefire rather than because of 'the Dark One's touch'. See the interview database.

[EvilSocrates]

This.^^^

 

PS: Bear in mind that 'at the time of creation' is the Creator's timeframe, not that of His creation.

 

What do you mean when you say "the Creator's timeframe?" I'm not sure what that phrase means. Seems like "bound at the time of creation" implies when the world itself was made to me. This is impossible if the world "has no beginnings or endings." Never made sense to me. I guess the best we can do is assume that there was, in fact, a first spinning of the wheel, but that it has spun an arbitrarily large, but not infinite, number of times.

 

Alternatively, "the time of Creation" might happen right before the first age every time, I guess, in keeping with the whole cycle without end thing. That would also be reminiscent of some versions of the Norse mythos(Ragnarök-->2 folks survive and the world starts over-->stuff is the same as before but SLIGHTLY better-->Ragnarök-->repeat), which Jordan drew on heavily.

[WWWwombat]

We're meant to assume that Coumin tried to change the stories before it was known that Lews Therin had gone insane, leading to the phrase 'Children of the Dragon' (a name given to them by the people - not a name they adopted for themselves).

 

Are we meant to assume that? What would his motivation have been and how would he have been so effective? Jonai's PoV implies that the Aiel served any number of Aes Sedai, not just Mierin or Lews Therin.

[Terez]

We're meant to assume that Coumin tried to change the stories before it was known that Lews Therin had gone insane, leading to the phrase 'Children of the Dragon' (a name given to them by the people - not a name they adopted for themselves).

 

Are we meant to assume that? What would his motivation have been

To discourage the people from believing that the Aiel had served one of the Forsaken (Lanfear). Coumin sought to counter Charn's stories by telling people that they served the great hero, Lews Therin.

 

and how would he have been so effective?

We're left to guess that much.

 

Jonai's PoV implies that the Aiel served any number of Aes Sedai, not just Mierin or Lews Therin.

Of course they did. That's why he noted (like I said) that the stories weren't true. But people believed it anyway.