How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[mb]

They used a full 13 to initially cut him off

Where was that told?

[Dakota]

They used a full 13 to initially cut him off

Where was that told?

 

I don't have the book handy. But from what I remember, the six he knew of walk in, they grab the source. He feels it and grabs his, they cut him off. The servants they brought with them all start pulling down their hoods, revealing ageless faces, he counts 13, and LTT starts going nuts. Hopefully someone with the book handy can back me up.

[mb]

Do have the book.

The scene does mention 13 to shield, but Rand might have been mistaken about that.

[Manscher]

Why would 13 be mentioned just for it to be wrong? :P

[Kahsm]

Why would 13 be mentioned just for it to be wrong? :P

 

13 is the linking limit for women. And there hasn't been a man yet that 13 couldn't stop. Which is good for them since 14 can't happen without a man. So it seems reasonable for women to make the claim that 13 is enough.

[Manscher]

I know the limit is 13, I was referring to mb's post above, where he mentioned the 13 shielding Rand in Cairhien and then that Rand might have been mistaken regarding it. Makes no sense that Rand should be wrong about that.

 

As for Rands actual power, I guess we can't really be sure until AMoL, but judging from the fact that there is no PoV from him in ToM; except one in his dreams where he wont channel anyway. I think he might have reached a somewhat similar state to that of his and Aviendhas children, constantly in touch with Saidin, he doesn't seem to suffer from channeling sickness any more and he doesn't react to being shielded by the 26 Aes Sedai nor by entering Far Madding.

[Seeker Matt]

Well I think that he is something beyond a supremely strong male channeler now. Him reaching a state of enlightenment seems to have allowed either the Creator or the pattern to use him as something approaching a vessel. For me, Nynaeve's delving of his madness is evidence of this as is his children seen through Avi's visions. Even greater strength is probably just a lesser aspect of this; it may not be a part of it at all - I do not think it was ever implied that he had reached his potential power anywhere in the books previously and male channelers do gain power in jumps. Enlightenment probably does wonders in allowing you to utililise your full Power strength potential.

 

I think he is much more than he was in the Age of Legends.

[Entreri]

Rand's children could channel when they were born and they are ALWAYS linked to saidin or saidar and their weaves were FAST AS THOUGHT = they could defeat any channeler one-on-one. This is akin to what happens in TAR, where none channelers are even more effective (Slayer, Perrin rule supreme).

 

Rand has a special link to saidin and the regular rules no longer apply (13 can shield LTT or Ishamael, but not Jesus Rand).

 

This means he has moved beyond what LTT was capable of. In the EotW, Ishamael did boasts "That I am the greater now" (full access to the TP). The tables have turned.

[MauricXe]

Is the power of a link dependent on the strength of those linking? If so, then Lews Therin's appraisal of his own limits, "I can't break more than 13[or w/e the number was]" may be in reference to the Aes Sedai of the AoL.

 

I think Rand's powers have maxed and he is as powerful as Lews Therin because he has finally accepted that he IS Lews Therin. Remember that Lews Therin was feared and given the name of The Dragon because of his skill and his power. He is the champion of the Light and I don't find Rand's "new" powers to be surprising. All of the POVs describing Rand's new powers are from non/channelers of this age. None of them have any idea of what the best of the AoL are capable of.

 

As to why did Lews Therin, and the rest of the forsaken, use armies instead of fight themselves. Well I think using an army doesn't leave you weak for attack by Aes Sedai or Forsaken. It's also easier to run a country, and a war, with man power.

[Dakota]

Is the power of a link dependent on the strength of those linking? If so, then Lews Therin's appraisal of his own limits, "I can't break more than 13[or w/e the number was]" may be in reference to the Aes Sedai of the AoL.

 

During one of the earlier forsaken gatherings, one of the men comments about how today's Aes Sedai are nothing more than half-trained children. One of the others present tells him something along the lines of 'Would you still be so cocky if a ring of thirteen of these 'children' came after you?'

 

I don't remember the exact quote, or even which book it was. But it seems that even the Forsaken knew that 13 was the magic number, irrelevant of strength or skill.

[Kahsm]

IMO those of you pushing Rand is a vessel, Rand is constantly connected to saidin, Rand is the hand of the creator, Rand is beyond the rules, are simply leftover Dragonsworn. Crazy blind with fanaticism.

 

LTT, who was still within the bounds of the channeling rules as we know them, created a mountain unaided. Sure he died doing it, but he was capable of it. And really the mountain was just the bi-product of whatever he was doing to kill himself, so who knows how much more he used than was required to make the mountain. The text for Rand says he took in as much a LTT did when he created dragonmount, then took more. But of course he was using the Choden Kal, so I don't see why anyone would think he couldn't do that without being some sort of new channeler breed.

[Manscher]

Nothing indicates that there are any limits to overdrawing on the one power, I mean Eldrene managed to drew enough of the one power to destroyed a massive trolloc army in one blow and at the same time disintegrating the entire capital city of Manetheren and I doubt very much she's any where near the power of Lews Therin. It seems more likely that it's possible for a person to draw enormous amounts of the One Power at once and basically just burst as Lews Therin did.

 

Besides, there's the quote from Brandon saying that it's important that Rand suddenly channels Light and the One Power, as he did at the end of TEOTW.

[Guest the1omnipotent]

While I can't find any obvious fault with the "Rand being a vessel of the Creator" theory, it does seem like there's another explanation. No one has mentioned anything yet about Rand channeling the True Power. There's no reason for him to suddenly not be able to channel it anymore. It fits all the unexplained issues that we've been discussing.

 

He used the TP to break out of the domination band, so it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that he can use it to get out of a full circle. In ToM, it talks about how using the TP gives him as much power as channeling through the access key. Which explains the massive power he wielded seemingly unaided at Maradon. And it explains why it almost came to a confrontation between him and the DO. He has killed massive amounts of shadowspawn with the OP before, and it never almost triggered the Final Battle. But if he was using the DO own power to combat the trollocs, then he would undoubtedly be drawing his attention/bringing the DO further into the world.

[Jimvzyl]

Just to aid your debate, in PoD during the use of the 'Bowl of the Winds', I think its Renaille who is shocked at the way in which linking occurs and suspects compulsion. She is told by Merillile (sp) (and i may be off here) that this was 'a thing from before the Trolloc Wars' and was first used to subdue men channelers who had gone mad after the breaking.

 

So theres a chance imo that because 13 is simply the maximum number of women capable of linking, and because they only started it during and after the Breaking, that no man should be or was able to break it. (None have probably ever done so before). Leading to the Aes Sedai belief that you can't break a circle of 13, and I doubt any Forsaken would risk it anyway :).

 

This is conjecture, I was sleepily paging through PoD and spotted it as i read this yesterday. Can anyone clear this up if they have the book on hand?

[Seeker Matt]

IMO those of you pushing Rand is a vessel, Rand is constantly connected to saidin, Rand is the hand of the creator, Rand is beyond the rules, are simply leftover Dragonsworn. Crazy blind with fanaticism.

 

LTT, who was still within the bounds of the channeling rules as we know them, created a mountain unaided. Sure he died doing it, but he was capable of it. And really the mountain was just the bi-product of whatever he was doing to kill himself, so who knows how much more he used than was required to make the mountain. The text for Rand says he took in as much a LTT did when he created dragonmount, then took more. But of course he was using the Choden Kal, so I don't see why anyone would think he couldn't do that without being some sort of new channeler breed.

 

 

Yes, fanatics typically reference, use evidence and use questioning, unassertive language.

 

The light combating the darkness of the DO's taint on Rand's mind IS suggestive.

 

The difference in the way Rand's and Avi's offspring channel IS suggestive.

 

 

 

The whole tone and use of the title Champion of Light and being the DO's "ancient enenmy" I think is suggestive too. I don't think Rand was the Champion of the Light before VoG, he only had the potential to become it and that is has little to do with strength of power. Now he is more than he was as LTT, as I think is evidenced by the lack of awareness of LTT in the prologue of EotW (ofc even though he had been temporarily "healed" his lack of awareness could easily have been a consequence of his madness and grief) compared to Zen Rand.

 

 

I should probably clarify that I don't think Rand is a vessel, only that he has been bestowed greater powers than mere strength in the OP and having the qualities of being the strongest ta'veren. OFC perhaps his greater powers are just an extension of the strength of his ta'veren qualities.

 

 

 

While I can't find any obvious fault with the "Rand being a vessel of the Creator" theory, it does seem like there's another explanation. No one has mentioned anything yet about Rand channeling the True Power. There's no reason for him to suddenly not be able to channel it anymore. It fits all the unexplained issues that we've been discussing.

 

He used the TP to break out of the domination band, so it doesn't seem like a stretch to say that he can use it to get out of a full circle. In ToM, it talks about how using the TP gives him as much power as channeling through the access key. Which explains the massive power he wielded seemingly unaided at Maradon. And it explains why it almost came to a confrontation between him and the DO. He has killed massive amounts of shadowspawn with the OP before, and it never almost triggered the Final Battle. But if he was using the DO own power to combat the trollocs, then he would undoubtedly be drawing his attention/bringing the DO further into the world.

I certainly think that Rand was talking about the TP when he spoke to the Borderland monarchs and I also think that it could be used to break a circle of thirteen. However, it just doesn't feel right to me that that is the principal reason why no circle could shield him now. That's sounds pretty inadequate but I have nothing else atm.

 

I think it is unlikely that he used the TP at Maradon simply because of the cost of using it (and he would have used a lot). I also suspect we the readers/Nynaeve would have see some evidence of it's use (ofc she wouldn't have known what it was that had been used) when she examined Rand and saw the membrane of light shielding his mind (she did this after Maradon I think?). I think the closeness to triggering the LB was a serious risk because of a combination of the weakness of the DO's prison and the changes Rand underwent in VoG.

 

*

 

That's a lot of speculation and novice-level theories by me and it's only my opinion.

[Kahsm]

IMO those of you pushing Rand is a vessel, Rand is constantly connected to saidin, Rand is the hand of the creator, Rand is beyond the rules, are simply leftover Dragonsworn. Crazy blind with fanaticism.

 

LTT, who was still within the bounds of the channeling rules as we know them, created a mountain unaided. Sure he died doing it, but he was capable of it. And really the mountain was just the bi-product of whatever he was doing to kill himself, so who knows how much more he used than was required to make the mountain. The text for Rand says he took in as much a LTT did when he created dragonmount, then took more. But of course he was using the Choden Kal, so I don't see why anyone would think he couldn't do that without being some sort of new channeler breed.

 

 

Yes, fanatics typically reference, use evidence and use questioning, unassertive language.

 

All your "evidence" is based on 'tone', which is largely subjective, and speculation. Then you present it as evidence. That is exactly how Fanaticism breeds.

 

The light combating the darkness of the DO's taint on Rand's mind IS suggestive.

It may be slightly suggestive in a crazy speculative sort-of way. What it does clearly relate to the taint on Rand's mind. There is zero evidence that it does anything for or to his channeling ability. Others have mentioned "Rand channeling the Light". But that was a hyperbolic statement from an amazed Ashaman. Plus I read it as an Analogy of Rand's natural capabilities, not a factual statement. How would some fresh Ashaman know what Channeling the "Light" looks like? (note that Light was capitalized to suggest not "a light", but all that is good in the world and possibly the essence of the creator himself) Any Ashaman would be blown away to see Rand channel anything, I'm sure. Brandon did say it was relevant, we don't know why. Plus, that was at Mardon, not VoG.

 

The difference in the way Rand's and Avi's offspring channel IS suggestive.

 

This is a _possible_ future of Avi's and means nothing for Rand currently. Absolutely nothing. Why would the creator or the pattern bestow the Dragon with a special power in order to fight the Dark One and make it genetically inherited?! And why wouldn't he give that power to LTT -- the Dragon? It makes zero sense. Avi's children will be special for their own reasons. Also see the RJ quote two rebuttals down.

 

The whole tone and use of the title Champion of Light and being the DO's "ancient enenmy" I think is suggestive too. I don't think Rand was the Champion of the Light before VoG, he only had the potential to become it and that is has little to do with strength of power. Now he is more than he was as LTT, as I think is evidenced by the lack of awareness of LTT in the prologue of EotW (ofc even though he had been temporarily "healed" his lack of awareness could easily have been a consequence of his madness and grief) compared to Zen Rand.

 

While you may be correct, it's a title. Suggestions nothing about his powers. And for all we know he started using the title because it WAS something LTT used and he accepted it similar to how he accepted Rand Sedai.

 

I should probably clarify that I don't think Rand is a vessel, only that he has been bestowed greater powers than mere strength in the OP and having the qualities of being the strongest ta'veren. OFC perhaps his greater powers are just an extension of the strength of his ta'veren qualities.

 

Rand has no direct connection with the Creator. The Creator is completely removed from the world; aside from ... creating ... the

Pattern, he does nothing else whatsoever to influence anything.

^^ Given this, the only other mechanism left to bestow this presumed extra power is one of the Wheel's "corrective mechanisms", and in the way it is described by the rl-dragonsworn, it seems far too sentient and sentimental of a move (in the whole Jesus as the son of god sense) to be from the great, non-sentient computer that is the Wheel.

[Seeker Matt]

How you get from suggestions that Rand may be more than a man to the poster being Dragonsworn is beyond me but speaks more of fanaticism than anything else I've seen. Some people seem to react quite angrily to any suggestion that Rand is anything but a gifted channeler.

 

Your repeated use of Dragonsworn as a derogative branding is also pretty extreme. In a world (this would be WoT) that is in turmoil and where many commoners are likely pretty cynical about their rulers it seems reasonable to me to swear yourself to the man destined to fight the Dark One.

 

 

You seem to be countering other people's arguments that I didn't make or indicate support. I am probably largely responsible for this for poorly wording my posts and insufficiently indicating that my post was separate from other's. This is my original post:

 

"Well I think that he is something beyond a supremely strong male channeler now. Him reaching a state of enlightenment seems to have allowed either the Creator or the pattern to use him as something approaching a vessel. For me, Nynaeve's delving of his madness is evidence of this as is his children seen through Avi's visions. Even greater strength is probably just a lesser aspect of this; it may not be a part of it at all - I do not think it was ever implied that he had reached his potential power anywhere in the books previously and male channelers do gain power in jumps. Enlightenment probably does wonders in allowing you to utililise your full Power strength potential.

 

I think he is much more than he was in the Age of Legends."

[Kahsm]

You seem to be countering other people's arguments that I didn't make or indicate support. I am probably largely responsible for this for poorly wording my posts and insufficiently indicating that my post was separate from other's. This is my original post:

 

"Well I think that he is something beyond a supremely strong male channeler now. Him reaching a state of enlightenment seems to have allowed either the Creator or the pattern to use him as something approaching a vessel. For me, Nynaeve's delving of his madness is evidence of this as is his children seen through Avi's visions. Even greater strength is probably just a lesser aspect of this; it may not be a part of it at all - I do not think it was ever implied that he had reached his potential power anywhere in the books previously and male channelers do gain power in jumps. Enlightenment probably does wonders in allowing you to utililise your full Power strength potential.

 

I think he is much more than he was in the Age of Legends."

 

Creator does nothing and has done nothing except create the pattern (says RJ). The pattern isn't sentient. The the light stuff Nynaeve found covered the taint and protected him from the madness, there's no indication it effects his channeling (beyond freeing him from the hinderance of that madness). Rand's kids don't effect him at all because they aren't even conceived yet. Unless you're suggesting some gift he gets is genetic, which makes no sense.

 

If he was connected directly to the source, then he wouldn't have run out at Maradon, he specifically says he foolishly used too much, what if a Forsaken had shown up? So he's not limitless.

 

There, I re-stated all my rebuttals and quoted your original post that they all still apply to.

[WhiskyJack]

Pointless debate. Unless you can make deathgates and fire from LIGHT, channeling it amounts to nothing. I wonder where Rand learned the weaves for all that, since there is absolutely no mention of light weaves and Rand "only" knows what LTT knew? On the other hand we have seen what "light" can do. It protects his mind, it makes darkfriends go crazy and probably make him glow. If channeling Light somehow boosts his one power channeling, that's another thing and we don't know that yet.

[LemonPastie]

We know he wasn't using TP at Maradon, one of the Asha'man that was in the room said something along the lines of "so many weaves, I can't even keep track of them"

[Kahsm]

We know he wasn't using TP at Maradon, one of the Asha'man that was in the room said something along the lines of "so many weaves, I can't even keep track of them"

 

Correct. But Rand purists don't think Maradon was unusual power wise. You kill 1 fade and an entire fist of trollocs can die. And knowing the weaves LTT knows and the ways to weave them is going to be amazing for efficiency. Aes Sedai are "half-trained children" after all. So Rand is now a channeler for the ages. If he can't slaughter an army of near-mindless trollocs, he'd be pretty disappointing.

 

I don't believe there's any evidence that LTT couldn't have done something similar. And he may have an angreal with him. Would seem rather foolish not to since most of the forsaken have at least a small one. Maybe he found the Fat Man =)

[Entreri]

We know he wasn't using TP at Maradon, one of the Asha'man that was in the room said something along the lines of "so many weaves, I can't even keep track of them"

 

Correct. But Rand purists don't think Maradon was unusual power wise. You kill 1 fade and an entire fist of trollocs can die. And knowing the weaves LTT knows and the ways to weave them is going to be amazing for efficiency. Aes Sedai are "half-trained children" after all. So Rand is now a channeler for the ages. If he can't slaughter an army of near-mindless trollocs, he'd be pretty disappointing.

 

I don't believe there's any evidence that LTT couldn't have done something similar. And he may have an angreal with him. Would seem rather foolish not to since most of the forsaken have at least a small one. Maybe he found the Fat Man =)

 

 

The evidence that Rand has gained special powers is apparent:

 

Maradon and Naeffs decription

 

Rand's children

 

Nyaneve search of his mind

 

13 AS linked cannot hold Rand (Asmodean - 13 weakest AS in the Tower can hold you or ANY MAN)

 

 

Rand has moved beyond LTT capabilities

[WhiskyJack]

We know he wasn't using TP at Maradon, one of the Asha'man that was in the room said something along the lines of "so many weaves, I can't even keep track of them"

 

Correct. But Rand purists don't think Maradon was unusual power wise. You kill 1 fade and an entire fist of trollocs can die. And knowing the weaves LTT knows and the ways to weave them is going to be amazing for efficiency. Aes Sedai are "half-trained children" after all. So Rand is now a channeler for the ages. If he can't slaughter an army of near-mindless trollocs, he'd be pretty disappointing.

 

I don't believe there's any evidence that LTT couldn't have done something similar. And he may have an angreal with him. Would seem rather foolish not to since most of the forsaken have at least a small one. Maybe he found the Fat Man =)

 

 

The evidence that Rand has gained special powers is apparent:

 

Maradon and Naeffs decription

 

Rand's children

 

Nyaneve search of his mind

13 AS linked cannot hold Rand (Asmodean - 13 weakest AS in the Tower can hold you or ANY MAN)

 

Rand has moved beyond LTT capabilities

 

 

Bold items have absolutely NO proof. I don't what 13 AS can or cannot do but we do know that in FM he was cutoff from OP. We are not discussing if he has gained "special" powers because we all know he has (something akin to light power). Debate is about his strength in One Power? Naeff saw "weaves" obviously made up of Saidin. So is Rand much much stronger in OP now is the only thing that matters as for as Maradon is concerned.

[Vambram]

What we saw in Maradon was not that Rand was drawing more power than he or any other channeler in this age has ever done before. What I believe that we saw according to the descriptions in the text that Rand drew a level of power for a longer length of time than we have seen before, as well as weaving so many weaves at a time that the asha'man witnessing the battle couldn't even count or keep track of those weaves.

 

It was not the quantity of saidin that was impressive, but instead it was Rand's stamina, his skill, and the complexity of weaving so many different weaves at once which was truly impressive. The Battle of Maradon demonstrated that Rand's skills at weaving saidin is far better than it ever has been before.

[Morsker]

Besides, there's the quote from Brandon saying that it's important that Rand suddenly channels Light and the One Power, as he did at the end of TEOTW.

Well the Light at the end of TEOTW was still the One Power; it was just highly condensed or refined. RJ analogized it to a nitrogen canister.

 

I see Rand's super-channeling ability in ToM as a deeper or more direct way of tapping into saidin, giving EOTW-like power, but it's still saidin not some third (or fourth) energy source. Maybe the use of the EOTW somehow "primed" Rand so that he could benefit from destroying the Choden Kal. I prefer "physical" explanations like this to ones based purely on enlightenment. RJ liked physics, and we saw him work out the Cleansing in detail.