WOT: The downfall of the series

[Guest PiotrekS]

After reading these arguments, it's clear that someone must be sacrificed to make the series better.

 

I think that the best thing for it is to have Egwene die, at her wedding.

 

Lol. I don´t think Egwene is gonna be sacrificed though, she is too... good...

 

No lesser mortal can carry this burden. Only the Mother can save the series from this total, unredeemable flaw

 

On more serious note, I wouldn't really like Egwene to get killed (probably because it would force me to sympathize with a character I can't stand ). As sad as it seems, the major characters' deaths I would have least problem with would be probably Perrin's and Faile's. I would hate to see Elayne die. Not to mention Rand, Mat, Nynaeve, Lan, Moiraine, Aviendha... If you want suspense, watch some Hitchcock - I want them to live!

[Ferdawoon]

I havent read many fantasy series but even when reading the harry potter series i noticed the sense of doom coming for harry potter with so many major characters dieing off and the dark side actually being scary, then in WOT the forsaken hasnt done one decent thing in this age, and they were supose to be the most feared and powerful aes sedai of the aol. Also no major characters have died besides verin since i cant even remember. Do you think this series would have been better if 1 or 2 major characters would have been killed off? it just seems like the light are in to good of a spot now and everyone alive, im not even fearful for the light that they will lose.

 

For example in HP you had dumbledoor, sirius half the order etc all killed off before the final book, lord of the rings you lost a few major characters, ASOIAF you got several killed off.

 

thoughts?

 

What I dont get is, have you not read anything at all? If there was not the Forsaken, how many of the obstacles currently being resolved do you think would go away?

Seanchan with their twisted prophecies from Ishamael (or was it Sammael?). Lanfear tried to feck up the Aiel by giving that Shaido guy two dragons as well and we lost Moirain when she tried to save Rand from Lanfear (in EXACTLY the same manner as Gandalf "die" in LotR, just to come back later completly save the day). If you think the Forsaken have not done anything to cause war, send asassins, to manipulate and even in some cases actively trying to prevent the forces of the Light, then I recommend going to the http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/ or http://wot.wikia.com/ and read about what they have done. The books are so many and the serie so long that it is really easy to forget what you read in the first books, some 15-20 years ago..

 

And, I'm sorry, but you seem to think that just killing a main character would somehow solve something? What would it solve? That the others would not feel as immortal? I mean, he killed Moiraine who is someone a lot of readers really like, and you still say they feel immortal? How many would he have to whack to make you say something else?

 

Also, if you want a serie where anything goes, fine, read ASoIaF and skip WoT. I have read ASoIaF and I would say that serie and WoT are not of the same kind.

WoT is a serie where the heroes stay alive. ASoIaF is not.

Sure criticism is always free to be given, but, why do you happen to post this now and now in 1996 when the first book in that serie was released? When the last book of WoT is around the corner? To me, this smell of someone trying to get others over to your perception that the killing off of characters is a good thing and that you like ASoIaF more because of it. It is like all the people on World of Warcraft forum making posts about how WoW sucks and that others should come play Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, etc..

 

Ofc you are not scared that the Light will not win.. It is like a Scream (or similar) movie where there is not one erson or a boy + girl who end up in love at the end. It is like an actionflick where the good do not win in the end (except when leaving a hint that there will be a sequal). I mean, did you honestly expect Frodo to NOT reach that colcano and toss the ring in? That the trilogy would end in Frodo being the new Sauron instead of saving the world? Do you not expect that bomb to be defused just seconds before it is about to explode?..

[Zhipp]

Lol this made me laugh. In a good way mind you. I think the problem with the Forsaken is that all that terrible things they did, mindcontrolling children, torturing people, mindfucks and blowing up cities happened in the AoL. So arguably, you want them to do badass Forsaken things now too, and actually see them. Not only hear about them. The Forsaken have killed lots of people... oh, the Seanchan royal family!

 

But conflict doesn´t need to be only physical/external although I kinda agree with you that more deaths, kidnappings and the like would have been nice. Seems Rand has suffered for alot of his friends too. But we don´t know who is gonna die in the end... I hope some will die tbh. Not all of our boys and girls can have a happily ever after.... I hope they can´t.

Yep, the forsaken are supposed to be bad asses, and I wanna see them in all their glory. The whole Seanchan thing was pretty cool. Semirhage did that, right? She was one of the more impressive forsaken, I was sorry to see her go...at least she went out with a bang, right? heh Really, I just want to hate the Forsaken, I don't like that they come off seeming like the underdogs. I don't wanna vote for the bad guys, but I can't help it! I almost always root for the underdog.

I get the feeling Nyneave and Lan will be the two major casualties in AMOL, which sucks because they're among the few people I don't want to die. Early on I guessed Mat, and maybe Perrin would end up giving up everything to help seal the DO or something, but since there was a Mat/Tuon trilogy planned, I don't think that'll end up happening afterall. Eh, I'm still sure my thirst for blood will be quenched in book 14.

Will that already be too late? Will I like who RJ chose to kill off? I can't wait to find out.

[Puny]

People keeping saying that about MaT. I know there were outrigger novels planned, but are they still in planning? Or maybe that was a red herring and Mat will die a hero death =O I´d hate for that to happen though... Maybe Tuon and Lan dies and then Nyn seeks solace in Mat´s arms and they can make babies... lol.

 

I can understand that about.. well not underdogs but evil people. I´m one of those annoying people that sometimes want the bad guys to win =O just cause it never happens. Go Moridin! ... I mean.. Go Light!

[Southpaw89]

People keeping saying that about MaT. I know there were outrigger novels planned, but are they still in planning? Or maybe that was a red herring and Mat will die a hero death =O I´d hate for that to happen though... Maybe Tuon and Lan dies and then Nyn seeks solace in Mat´s arms and they can make babies... lol.

 

Brandon Sanderson said that there are notes for the outrigger notes so I'm assuming the Mat and Tuon thing would still be around if they would decide to write them. And besides, RJ has said many times that he has had the ending planned since the first book so he knew back then who would live and who would die. As for the criticism that a lot of the main characters are still alive, think about what they've gone through. For instance, Rand has been through more torture than characters in other books who've ended up dying. I think it's great that a lot of the main people are still around. I do think a lot of them will die in AMOL

[Threepy]

In no way should anyone compare Ice & Fire to WOT. For one WOT will be finished(despite a dead author), I have my doubts as to whether I&F will be. For another Ned and Robb were to honourable to live anyway so they really shouldn't count.

 

Of course they should count. They were both major characters in the books, and well written. The death of Ned came as a shock to me, and I really liked him as a character - he was brilliant to read. He should count merely because his death was a big death - it would generate a reaction from the fans and the series wouldn't be the same without him.

For Robb, I expected him to die even if I didn't want him to. How he died however I did not expect. There were hints, but I didn't expect it to happen so suddenly.

 

What is good about ISOIAF is that a brilliant character can be killed off, and a new or minor character can become a good major one (meaning there are always a lot of good characters). There is a lot about As Song of Ice and Fire I prefer...but the same could also be said for WoT. The magic system for a start.

[Ferdawoon]

In no way should anyone compare Ice & Fire to WOT. For one WOT will be finished(despite a dead author), I have my doubts as to whether I&F will be. For another Ned and Robb were to honourable to live anyway so they really shouldn't count.

 

Of course they should count. They were both major characters in the books, and well written. The death of Ned came as a shock to me, and I really liked him as a character - he was brilliant to read. He should count merely because his death was a big death - it would generate a reaction from the fans and the series wouldn't be the same without him.

Ned? Pfft, he did not even survive the first book.. I would not really call that a major character.

Which is a problem if you kill everyone off, there is no one that is really a major character. There is no one to grow to like and sympathise with.

[TheAngryDruid]

And I thought that this thread was about CoT.

 

Look, killing main characters off is pretty rare in fantasy literature. LoTR had Boromir, and one could argue if he was really a major character or not. Of course, in The Hobbit, many of the Dwarves didn't fare so well, and the death of Thorin was of course poignant. (And Balin dies off-screen in LoTR).

 

Again, aside from Mr. Martin, it is pretty rare to lose more than one, if that. And the series isn't done yet.

[Threepy]

Ned? Pfft, he did not even survive the first book.. I would not really call that a major character.

Which is a problem if you kill everyone off, there is no one that is really a major character. There is no one to grow to like and sympathise with

 

He was a major character in Game of Thrones IMO. A character I instantly liked, and was important to the story of the first book. I grew to like him fast. His death showed to me than no-one is safe.

[Troilen]

I think what he was trying to illustrate is not that the characters themselves feel they are immortal, but that us readers feel that way. And I have to say that I agree. When reading about Mat, after awhile in the series, I never felt like he was in danger, I only wondered what clever thing he was going to do this time. I did however fear for Talmanes when he was baiting the gholam.

 

Ok, so when we were finally revealed Thoms letter about saving Moiraine, and it stated the scenario in which they could save her, but she still said that even then they could just as easily fail...did anyone have any doubt in their minds that the mission would fail? I didn't, I knew right away that in some fashion Mat and Thom would succeed. It's the relative predictability of it. Since nobody ever dies, you always know that they are going to win, takes some suspense out of the series.

 

I still love WoT tho =)

[Elan Tedronai]

After reading these arguments, it's clear that someone must be sacrificed to make the series better.

 

I think that the best thing for it is to have Egwene die, at her wedding.

 

i don't think that is possible. It's against the laws of nature

[Vambram]

I really do not understand the fascination some of you people have with demanding the deaths of major characters.

 

Who do you people want to kill off? Frankly, to me, the major characters are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve, Lan, Aviendha, Min, Elayne, and Faile. I just don't understand the bloody desire of some of you people to kill off major characters, especially when all of them still have very important roles left to play in the series.

[Randommer]

The thing is though, WoT is simply too character-driven to kill many of them off before the very end. RJ put his characters on long, arduous journeys, and cutting those journeys short would just seem weird to read to me. Like I'd wasted a whole lot of time getting invested in the character.

 

So instead, RJ used a technique I way prefer, and killed off people close to the main characters instead. I way prefer to actually see the effects of loss on a character rather than just have that character dead. I mean Mat's had three love interests in the story and two have ended up dead, one after trying to kill him and the other because he tied her up and the thing hunting him got her instead, Perrin's entire family got killed because he couldn't save them in time, and Rand ended his previous life by killing everyone he cared about and himself and was nearly driven to repeat it this time round.

 

To me that stuff's way more effectively dark and scary than simple character death, but it depends on what you look for in a book.

[Cybertrolloc]

No, you don't have character deaths to have character deaths. When the main characters rarely take any precaution against danger or even plan what they're going to do, then get in way over their heads and only come out alive and successful due to luck or villain stupidity... (Ta'veran aside of course, which is a nice touch mostly.)

[Zhipp]

People keeping saying that about MaT. I know there were outrigger novels planned, but are they still in planning? Or maybe that was a red herring and Mat will die a hero death =O I´d hate for that to happen though... Maybe Tuon and Lan dies and then Nyn seeks solace in Mat´s arms and they can make babies... lol.

 

I can understand that about.. well not underdogs but evil people. I´m one of those annoying people that sometimes want the bad guys to win =O just cause it never happens. Go Moridin! ... I mean.. Go Light!

I don't think they're still going to be written. It would be pretty awesome, and a huge surprise, if Mat ends up dying in AMOL. Provided, of course, that he has a death befitting his station. We can't have him dying like Nalesean, or, Creator forbid, Nicola! That would just be bloody awful.

I can't think of a single Fantasy novel I've read where the bad guy actually won. Unless Raistlin counts, but I don't think he does. His victory wasn't complete, anyway.

 

 

 

[Southpaw89]

I don't think it's a surprise the good guys will win. The question is how bad of shape the world will be in after.

[idiostock]

If Elayne had died a decade ago, imagine how much Andor politicking we would have been spared by Rand's simple, forceful will.

 

Myrrdraal should be bringing down all but the best (which I see being the Trio and Lan. The Trakands and the GCs should not be able to take Satan's captains in personal combat.)

 

There must be Aiel names for Gawyn, since Lan got a nickety-nack for cleaving through them with an "inferior" sword. Gawyn might not have ever been hit by an Aiel.

 

I could go for death, but I have my untouchables.

[Suttree]

There must be Aiel names for Gawyn, since Lan got a nickety-nack for cleaving through them with an "inferior" sword. Gawyn might not have ever been hit by an Aiel.

 

Not following you here. I thought Lan's nickname came from his personnel war against the blight. Didn't realize it had anything to do with fighting the Aiel.

[NitroS]

Well the argument is valid. Lets face it, none of he major characters die and everyone of them is basically super human. They are all either the most powerful channeler in 3000 years, blademasters, war Gods, gamblers, the wolves and dreams, etc...

 

Basically all the main characters are also the most powerful in the series. Even young they manage to defeat and outplay the best of the forsaken who supposedly have way more experience and knowledge to draw on.

 

At the end of the day though I think the series has worked just fine as it is. IMO though RJ missed a huge oppurtunity. I think he set up Perrin in a way that could have been absolutel epic and would've become my all time favorite character - ever. I got to think RJ was either teasing up or was hinting at a possible cross-over with Perrin. He was totally geared for going over to the shadow. He could have been the first named Dreadlord. Think about it. How many ways did he make itknown he would do ANYTHING for Faile. How many times did he even straight out say he would let Rand, the light, and anyone die for her. I think RJ could have made him cross over to the dark side and it would've been epic. Never that I can think of had we seen such a character, one we all knew from so many books actually turn bad like that. It would have been absoluely amazing IMO. It would also have really made the other forsaken seem more real and believable.

 

So basically I think RJ really missed the boat on Perrin. I think that character could've been used in a better way. Imagine the conflict of say Mat having to face off against his former friend.

 

As far as no major characters deaths...well....they sure do suffer alot. I am not sure any series I have read has had the characters suffer so much but again, the fact that after all these books and all these adventures, that not a single one of them has died does IMO take away from the story.

Totally Agree what a suprising and interest twist that would have been for a main character such as that to be on the dark side really hope someone in the main characters gets 13x13'd would add a very interesting plot.

 

I havent read many fantasy series but even when reading the harry potter series i noticed the sense of doom coming for harry potter with so many major characters dieing off and the dark side actually being scary, then in WOT the forsaken hasnt done one decent thing in this age, and they were supose to be the most feared and powerful aes sedai of the aol. Also no major characters have died besides verin since i cant even remember. Do you think this series would have been better if 1 or 2 major characters would have been killed off? it just seems like the light are in to good of a spot now and everyone alive, im not even fearful for the light that they will lose.

 

For example in HP you had dumbledoor, sirius half the order etc all killed off before the final book, lord of the rings you lost a few major characters, ASOIAF you got several killed off.

 

thoughts?

 

What I dont get is, have you not read anything at all? If there was not the Forsaken, how many of the obstacles currently being resolved do you think would go away?

Seanchan with their twisted prophecies from Ishamael (or was it Sammael?). Lanfear tried to feck up the Aiel by giving that Shaido guy two dragons as well and we lost Moirain when she tried to save Rand from Lanfear (in EXACTLY the same manner as Gandalf "die" in LotR, just to come back later completly save the day). If you think the Forsaken have not done anything to cause war, send asassins, to manipulate and even in some cases actively trying to prevent the forces of the Light, then I recommend going to the http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/ or http://wot.wikia.com/ and read about what they have done. The books are so many and the serie so long that it is really easy to forget what you read in the first books, some 15-20 years ago..

 

And, I'm sorry, but you seem to think that just killing a main character would somehow solve something? What would it solve? That the others would not feel as immortal? I mean, he killed Moiraine who is someone a lot of readers really like, and you still say they feel immortal? How many would he have to whack to make you say something else?

 

Also, if you want a serie where anything goes, fine, read ASoIaF and skip WoT. I have read ASoIaF and I would say that serie and WoT are not of the same kind.

WoT is a serie where the heroes stay alive. ASoIaF is not.

Sure criticism is always free to be given, but, why do you happen to post this now and now in 1996 when the first book in that serie was released? When the last book of WoT is around the corner? To me, this smell of someone trying to get others over to your perception that the killing off of characters is a good thing and that you like ASoIaF more because of it. It is like all the people on World of Warcraft forum making posts about how WoW sucks and that others should come play Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, etc..

 

Ofc you are not scared that the Light will not win.. It is like a Scream (or similar) movie where there is not one erson or a boy + girl who end up in love at the end. It is like an actionflick where the good do not win in the end (except when leaving a hint that there will be a sequal). I mean, did you honestly expect Frodo to NOT reach that colcano and toss the ring in? That the trilogy would end in Frodo being the new Sauron instead of saving the world? Do you not expect that bomb to be defused just seconds before it is about to explode?..

 

woah calm down i was just stating my oppinion. Firstly i just finished reading the WOT series 1 month ago and started rereading it again straight away so i couldnt have made this post in 1996, secondly i havent even read asoiaf yet i just used it as an example because reading a book review it said that alot of characters get killed off. WOT if my favourite series and probably always will be im just making the point of the one downfall of the series i found which i should have rephrased to something more like the one thing i find wrong with the WOT series so its my own fault there.

 

The forsaken the most powerful 13 dark channelers ever created were told for thousands of years of how strong,power full etc they were and then a guy channeling for the first time manages to beat him over and over again, nyneave and moghedian, nyneave had very little experience with weaves and moghedian couldnt even do anything? i know the harry potter series is frowned upon by the fantasy genre fans but just think about snapes character and how much tension to hatrid to sadness he caused i was actually scared for any character dieing besides the main 3 with the way harry potter was going, in this pretty much everyone has had a free pass where when i was reading gowyn fighting the blood knives i knew he was going to win and protect egwene i wasnt even worried for him, i wasnt worried for egwene in the dream etc im not saying characters have to die im saying one dead main character done right could of caused a lot of emotion and make the readers feel alot more worried during battle scenes.

 

He killed of moraine? did you read the towers of midnight? it has been foreshadowed since like day 1 that she was going to live so that pretty much stopped me from being worried. Im at the point now where i can pretty much guarantee that no important characters will die until the last battle, Lan running to his death in the blight its been forshadowed a too obvious death for him to die now im not even slightly worried for him and the fact that noal said for mat to find a malkier and let them know something from noal gives me the idea that Lan is going to live.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Maybe Tuon and Lan dies and then Nyn seeks solace in Mat´s arms and they can make babies... lol.

 

That would be so cool

[Ferdawoon]

The forsaken the most powerful 13 dark channelers ever created were told for thousands of years of how strong,power full etc they were and then a guy channeling for the first time manages to beat him over and over again, nyneave and moghedian, nyneave had very little experience with weaves and moghedian couldnt even do anything? i know the harry potter series is frowned upon by the fantasy genre fans but just think about snapes character and how much tension to hatrid to sadness he caused i was actually scared for any character dieing besides the main 3 with the way harry potter was going, in this pretty much everyone has had a free pass where when i was reading gowyn fighting the blood knives i knew he was going to win and protect egwene i wasnt even worried for him, i wasnt worried for egwene in the dream etc im not saying characters have to die im saying one dead main character done right could of caused a lot of emotion and make the readers feel alot more worried during battle scenes.

 

He killed of moraine? did you read the towers of midnight? it has been foreshadowed since like day 1 that she was going to live so that pretty much stopped me from being worried. Im at the point now where i can pretty much guarantee that no important characters will die until the last battle, Lan running to his death in the blight its been forshadowed a too obvious death for him to die now im not even slightly worried for him and the fact that noal said for mat to find a malkier and let them know something from noal gives me the idea that Lan is going to live.

 

Yes, the Forsaken were powerful because, well, everyone who could channel were stronger in the Power compared to current Randland. However, read what have been said about the them. They never actually did anything themselves. They were masters are schemes, plotting and manipulation, masters of stealth and both physical and psycological torture. They were tacticians, military generals and how to rally vast armies and put them to good use. I mean, why did they not just link to make a circle and just blast Rand with Balefire as soon as he released Callandor? Because that would kinda kill the whole story!

Why did Harry Potter & Co not just kill off the Deatheaters, if he is powerful enough to ward off He who shall not be Named? He could at LEAST kill Malfoy, no? Why not? That would certainly make a lot of sense, and that would mean a lot of important characters died, which you seem to favor.

Same with LotR, why did Frodo survive? Why did EVERYONE in that serie survive? I mean, do we even see Saruman die or d the Ents not just keep him locked up? The only real death is Boromir, someone who is far from a major character and who only served to emphazise the luring powers of the Ring and the basic Greed and egosim of humanity. You cannot say that you at any point in the book was afraid that Frodo and Sam would NOT reach the big pool of lava? That Gandalf, Legolas, Aragon, Gimli and those other two hobbits would not live?

How do you think aSoIaF will end? That those frozen-whatevers north of the Wall will kill all living things? Or do you think that Danerys might actually be able to reclaim the throne? *SPOILER --> * We even have Catelyn Stark come back after having her head cut off!

 

I mean, just think of it. Rand need to take the seals to a big pit of lava as well, so that part of the story is the same as LoTR..!

 

I am still fascinated that you seem to think that something would be better if all of the characters in the story was killed about halfway through. What would it solve? That you get the feeling that the Light will NOT win? C'mon, tell me a book or movie where the good do not win and the world just end, or at least where humanity will survive (in the case of a fair few zombiefilms). Would you get the feeling that no one is safe? Well, would you get the feeling that anything is worth getting attached to if it will just be killed or destroyed in a few chapters anyway?

[idiostock]

There must be Aiel names for Gawyn, since Lan got a nickety-nack for cleaving through them with an "inferior" sword. Gawyn might not have ever been hit by an Aiel.

 

Not following you here. I thought Lan's nickname came from his personnel war against the blight. Didn't realize it had anything to do with fighting the Aiel.

 

I think that's Dai Shan, which the borderlanders named him. Unless I'm mistaken, the Aiel named him Aan'Allein for the time he spent in the eastern marshes, being a one man army (the same place Masema was went he fought Aiel and gained his racism).

[randsc]

There must be Aiel names for Gawyn, since Lan got a nickety-nack for cleaving through them with an "inferior" sword. Gawyn might not have ever been hit by an Aiel.

 

Not following you here. I thought Lan's nickname came from his personnel war against the blight. Didn't realize it had anything to do with fighting the Aiel.

 

I think that's Dai Shan, which the borderlanders named him. Unless I'm mistaken, the Aiel named him Aan'Allein for the time he spent in the eastern marshes, being a one man army (the same place Masema was went he fought Aiel and gained his racism).

 

Yeah, you're mistaken.

 

Aan'allein doesn't mean, "One Man Army." It means, "One man who is an entire nation" and it refers to Lan's status as the last of the Malkieri royal house, and his war againt the Shadow.

[CadeForeverfar]

I just want to point out to all people who are saying that Perrin or Mat could have died, the victory of the light is dependant on Mat and Perrin's involvement WITH Rand. This is stressed so many times by Min's viewings, Perrin and Egwene's dreaming etc.

 

Just throwing that one out there.

[randsc]

I just want to point out to all people who are saying that Perrin or Mat could have died, the victory of the light is dependant on Mat and Perrin's involvement WITH Rand. This is stressed so many times by Min's viewings, Perrin and Egwene's dreaming etc.

 

Just throwing that one out there.

 

Well sure, but the text didn't come down from the Mount graven on stone tablets. It could have been written differently. Which is what people are saying.