Robert Jordans Planning of the series

[DocBean]

 

I completely disagree with this. If the story were told in three books it would have the same shallow feel of many other trilogies. While I am certain that the series could have been cut down significantly in length, 3 books is far too short. Even 6 books is far too short. The reason the WoT is such a great work is because of the depth and detail of the world and because of the character development. If you chopped the story down to 3 or 6 books the entire world would lose its depth and the characters would lose their realism. The story would feel rushed, unrealistic, and shallow.

 

Right now the series will end in 13 books. It probably could have legitimately ended in 11 imo.

 

 

I actually agree with what he said, and the points he brought up are right on.

The characters haven't developed enough to require 13 books; I think that's a horrible argument. In fact, most characters have changed very little from the beginning.

There are a lot of authors that have shown much more character development with a lot less printed paper.

 

Could the series have been 3 books. Yes, most definitely. However, It would have been very similar to Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series, where storylines begin and end rather quickly.

It would not have been the same, but that doesn't mean it would have been all bad. Look at Tolkien's work, there was easily enough raw material to stretch the Lord of the Rings Trilogy to 13 books or more.

 

As for people being mad about the final book being split, it's not because they didn't want more to read, it's because RJ said he wouldn't split it.

It was Jordan's wish to have 1 giant book. That's why readers were upset.

And a lot of people have given RJ and Harriet a reputation for stretching the series further then it needed to go.

 

I'm glad it's 3 books, and am glad that it will finally be done, but I do think the series may have been better if it only took 10 total.

 

With all that said, the ending could have been created as 1 book without losing a single word - The whole thing would fit on any Kindle or other E Reader on the market.

Thank god Publishers aren't creating cars, we'd all be driving around in Model Ts.

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

[Grig]

With all that said, the ending could have been created as 1 book without losing a single word - The whole thing would fit on any Kindle or other E Reader on the market.

Thank god Publishers aren't creating cars, we'd all be driving around in Model Ts.

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

 

When the camera manufacturer can send out a signal to remotely remove any images you have taken (or disable functions you have paid for), you might start to have a comparison.

[Smittyphi]

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

 

Wow.

 

I don't have $100+ to drop on an EReader. I do have $10 to drop on a paperback book that can withstand being thrown, sat or dropped on. I can't go to the author if I have a Kindle or fill in the blank ereader and say, "Please sign my kindle...er...nevermind"

 

That's very naive of you to say.

 

/switch topic

 

I wonder how much it would be to bind it this way

[capuga]

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

 

Wow.

 

I don't have $100+ to drop on an EReader. I do have $10 to drop on a paperback book that can withstand being thrown, sat or dropped on. I can't go to the author if I have a Kindle or fill in the blank ereader and say, "Please sign my kindle...er...nevermind"

 

That's very naive of you to say.

 

Not to mention that I do more than just read my books. I collect them. I have a library room in my house with nice bookcases full of books. All hardcovers so they look nice. My library wouldn't look all that cool with a little Kindle sitting in the middle of a bunch of empty shelves.

[MauricXe]

 

With all that said, the ending could have been created as 1 book without losing a single word - The whole thing would fit on any Kindle or other E Reader on the market.

Thank god Publishers aren't creating cars, we'd all be driving around in Model Ts.

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

 

Who says getting an E-reader is an upgrade? I don't think it is.

 

-----

 

I agree with Emilia and randsc.

[DocBean]

I look at people that refuse to upgrade to an EReader the same way I look at my Grandmothers when they ask me to load their 35mm film for them.

 

Wow.

 

I don't have $100+ to drop on an EReader. I do have $10 to drop on a paperback book that can withstand being thrown, sat or dropped on. I can't go to the author if I have a Kindle or fill in the blank ereader and say, "Please sign my kindle...er...nevermind"

 

That's very naive of you to say.

 

/switch topic

 

I wonder how much it would be to bind it this way

 

I was just saying that they could have released it all as one book. The problem is we'd still be waiting for it.

 

As for the eReaders, if you read a lot, the cost more then evens out, and there are tons of free books available for downloading.

However, if the cost is an issue, I understand. You can also check them out with any book you want at most if not all local libraries.

That's a good idea for someone that wants to give them a try. The cost will also come down in time.

It is the future, try not to fight it too much. In a matter of years most of the bookstores you love won't be in business, which I admit is sad, but who's still crying for the Milkmen and Encyclopedia salesmen?

 

As for collectors of things like Signatures and Leather bound books for room ornamentation, maybe books are the better way to go.

For people that like hobbies, that's as good a hobby as any. For me, I've never cared for signatures of any sort, and I'd rather read then sit in a room starring at books on a shelf.

[MierinWru]

Shame the discussion went from a rather interesting thread about Robert Jordan's planning and skills into a debate about ebook readers.

[MarkDiLillo]

I completely disagree with this. If the story were told in three books it would have the same shallow feel of many other trilogies. While I am certain that the series could have been cut down significantly in length, 3 books is far too short. Even 6 books is far too short. The reason the WoT is such a great work is because of the depth and detail of the world and because of the character development. If you chopped the story down to 3 or 6 books the entire world would lose its depth and the characters would lose their realism. The story would feel rushed, unrealistic, and shallow.

 

Right now the series will end in 13 books. It probably could have legitimately ended in 11 imo.

 

I think you're giving Jordan way too much credit. I love the fact that the series is so long but that's just because as a fangirl nerd I would like it to never end.

 

 

But being objective much of what you said regarding the length being necessary for the world to seem real and character development to happen doesn't hold true if you actually look at character development. Perrin's character development had come to a halt for about 5 books for example and only Sanderson picked up the pieces and actually makes Perrin's character develop now. In general I think the characters in WoT are incredibly resistant to development and that can't just be excused with "wool-headed stubbornness". I wonder how other authors (and I'm not talking about fantasy literature) create believable characters in less than 500 pages.

 

Sometimes I think that for all of Jordan's accomplishments people really over-estimate his actual quality as a writer. It's probably not a popular thing to say but let's face it: The guy would've never won a Nobel Prize for Literature and that's fine. He didn't need to, the books are fun enough. But some people here seem to claim he's a genius and people being on their 6th, 10th or 12th re-read of the series should probably seriously consider that they could read so many other awesome books in all those hours spent on re-reading a 12-book series for the 7th time. Maybe those people should just... read other stuff once in a while so as to not get the "tunnel view" present in some of the posters here who don't realize that there are other authors out there.

 

/rant off.

 

If I stepped on your toes... here's a cookie. Enjoy.

 

I disagree with a lot of this. There are parts I do agree with though. Before I get into that, let me ask you this: What do you think of the parts of the book Sanderson wrote so far?

[capuga]

Shame the discussion went from a rather interesting thread about Robert Jordan's planning and skills into a debate about ebook readers.

 

On topic then: I think the series could use a good scrub with a more demanding editor. I think RJ could have pick up the pace of his plots and cut out a lot of the descriptive language. That said, I think RJ was a terrific storyteller, his prose is fun to read, he was a fantastic worldbuilder, and is maybe the best I've read in the genre at foreshadowing events that don't happen tell books later.

[MarkDiLillo]

Shame the discussion went from a rather interesting thread about Robert Jordan's planning and skills into a debate about ebook readers.

 

On topic then: I think the series could use a good scrub with a more demanding editor. I think RJ could have pick up the pace of his plots and cut out a lot of the descriptive language. That said, I think RJ was a terrific storyteller, his prose is fun to read, he was a fantastic worldbuilder, and is maybe the best I've read in the genre at foreshadowing events that don't happen tell books later.

 

I dont think its the editor that was the "problem" or Jordan's writing style. The problem was that he opened up too many story arcs and expanded the story to cover too many main characters. If he had concentrated primarily on Rand, Perrin, and Mat then we would have a much more compact story. But we would also have a much different story...

[Vambram]

Shame the discussion went from a rather interesting thread about Robert Jordan's planning and skills into a debate about ebook readers.

 

On topic then: I think the series could use a good scrub with a more demanding editor. I think RJ could have pick up the pace of his plots and cut out a lot of the descriptive language. That said, I think RJ was a terrific storyteller, his prose is fun to read, he was a fantastic worldbuilder, and is maybe the best I've read in the genre at foreshadowing events that don't happen tell books later.

 

I dont think its the editor that was the "problem" or Jordan's writing style. The problem was that he opened up too many story arcs and expanded the story to cover too many main characters. If he had concentrated primarily on Rand, Perrin, and Mat then we would have a much more compact story. But we would also have a much different story...

 

 

If the WOT had focused only upon Rand, Perrin, and Mat, then we would have a story that would not be nearly as enjoyable as it is now, and the series would not have been worthy of multiple re-reads. In short, the Wheel of Time would not have been an Epic Fantasy series.

 

 

[Cybertrolloc]

Shame the discussion went from a rather interesting thread about Robert Jordan's planning and skills into a debate about ebook readers.

 

On topic then: I think the series could use a good scrub with a more demanding editor. I think RJ could have pick up the pace of his plots and cut out a lot of the descriptive language. That said, I think RJ was a terrific storyteller, his prose is fun to read, he was a fantastic worldbuilder, and is maybe the best I've read in the genre at foreshadowing events that don't happen tell books later.

++ this, though I'd emphasize the prose over world-building over shorter term plotting more.

 

randsc, how could you forget the Caemlyn succession on your list? I'd have it tied at #1 for Faile kidnapping. Parts of it aren't bad, seeing Elayne interact with the same people Rand did had its interesting points. The problem is the copy/pasted chapters across 4 books, possibly 5 if the Carhein arc in ToM is as bad as it sounds reading about it here.

 

Also bring to mind the what would you rather have read about than Elayne and Avienda's bath thread :)

[Vambram]

I completely disagree with this. If the story were told in three books it would have the same shallow feel of many other trilogies. While I am certain that the series could have been cut down significantly in length, 3 books is far too short. Even 6 books is far too short. The reason the WoT is such a great work is because of the depth and detail of the world and because of the character development. If you chopped the story down to 3 or 6 books the entire world would lose its depth and the characters would lose their realism. The story would feel rushed, unrealistic, and shallow.

 

Right now the series will end in 13 books. It probably could have legitimately ended in 11 imo.

 

 

I actually agree with what he said, and the points he brought up are right on.

The characters haven't developed enough to require 13 books; I think that's a horrible argument. In fact, most characters have changed very little from the beginning.

There are a lot of authors that have shown much more character development with a lot less printed paper.

 

 

I completely disagree. In fact, I have seen great character growth and development in everyone of the major characters, as well as in some of the minor characters.

 

Could the series have been 3 books. Yes, most definitely. However, It would have been very similar to Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series, where storylines begin and end rather quickly.

It would not have been the same, but that doesn't mean it would have been all bad. Look at Tolkien's work, there was easily enough raw material to stretch the Lord of the Rings Trilogy to 13 books or more.

 

 

As for people being mad about the final book being split, it's not because they didn't want more to read, it's because RJ said he wouldn't split it.

It was Jordan's wish to have 1 giant book. That's why readers were upset.

And a lot of people have given RJ and Harriet a reputation for stretching the series further then it needed to go.

 

I'm glad it's 3 books, and am glad that it will finally be done, but I do think the series may have been better if it only took 10 total.

 

Perhaps the entire story and character development could have been written and still kept the greatness of the series by writing 12 books instead of the now planned 14 books. But, I just do not see how a mere 10 books could have done this series as exceptionally well as the 14 books we are going to get.

[Suttree]

I disagree with a lot of this. There are parts I do agree with though. Before I get into that, let me ask you this: What do you think of the parts of the book Sanderson wrote so far?

 

As far as I know in TGS and ToM, there are very few passages that we are definitively sure as to who wrote what...

[MarkDiLillo]

I disagree with a lot of this. There are parts I do agree with though. Before I get into that, let me ask you this: What do you think of the parts of the book Sanderson wrote so far?

 

As far as I know in TGS and ToM, there are very few passages that we are definitively sure as to who wrote what...

 

Um...you really can't tell? There are parts that are questionable, but there is a pretty stark difference between RJ's writing and Sandersons.

[hazelkrs1]

It really seems like noones really that far off base with anything thats been said on this thread, everyone brings up good points. I figured I might be able to add a little tho...

 

RJ was definitely an amazing writer, I dont think it's getting too carried away to say that. It's true, he can get a little long-winded at times, but theres many reasons why this isnt really a bad thing. We've been called the NOW generation, and this is exemplified through so many facets of society its almost pointless to actually give examples. We HATE waiting for things, even if it's waiting for a series that we have loved following for years to end. On the same token though, nothing inspires fandom like a little anticipation inspired by waiting for the next one. Not only does it give an opportunity for other newer readers to catch up a little bit so they can enjoy the book when it comes out along with everyone else, it allows time for other things in life; everything should be enjoyed in moderation and I know my life has literally suffered before when I was reading a series I couldnt put down lol.

 

Also, delayed releases give the fans an opportunity to pore over evey detail in the books and scour over everything with a fine tooth comb until every theory, easter egg, and quirk found in the novels has been dissected to the nth degree. Not only is this very fun and a good way of filling up forum threads, but it also lets publishers and authors know what "works" with their audience, and what doesnt as much. Then theres the fact that many times authors aren't writing a story to please fans, but because they feel the story bursting out from within and they have a need to get it out on paper, no matter what. Many of mankind's greatest literary creations have come out of such circumstances. And the fact is, whether we'd like to read the story in 3 books or 12 means diddly squat to those authors; theyre just trying to do the best job of delivering the story thats in their heads to paper, and sometimes that takes time to do.

 

Of course there are different writing styles, and the WOT could have been written in fewer books by a different author that goes without saying (thats why I typed it). But would it have been better? Could it have been worse? Yes. But there's no use in counting eggs till they hatch and there's less use in debating what if's when it comes to the creation of an epic fantasy like this one. There's realistically only two options: enjoy it, or don't enjoy it. I happen to enjoy it immensely, and I've only read it once time through so far, and look forward to reading it all over again soon.

 

I will say that its been said that for all his prose and description, most of the characters don't really develop that much. I believe thats fairly true, and yet that once again does not mean its a bad thing. In real life I find that people might change in a huge way after impactful events, but many times people honestly stay the same more or less throughout their lives. Their perspectives might change, or their surroundings, but often they'll still react to things in the same way, they still view themselves in the same way, they take comfort in the things that don't radically change that often. So maybe it's more realistic for an author to change the setting and the stakes many times, while changing the characters very little throughout the series. I take comfort knowing Mat will always be a little devil, Elayne will always be a little stuck up, and Berelain will always be a hussy.

 

As for the books vs. Ereader argument, books win hands down. Its sadly true that libraries and bookstores might start to fade away or go out of business, but this tragedy would far exceed the loss of the milkman or encyclopedia salesman. The library is an institution of our civilization, a haven for developing young minds, a resource for those seeking knowledge; it's a quiet place for entertainment that truly is an island in the storm of over the top low brow entertainment, flashy music videos that dont tell a story, and other areas we gather where you can scarcely hear yourself think, much less enjoy something as profound and as enriching as a good book. Ereaders are convenient, it's true, but one of the sad things about this generation is how often we place convenience over quality and tradition.

[stoneface]

RJ's descriptive writing style is wonderful. It really gives the feel of the location (e.g., the swishing of the grass, the feel of the horse, the smell of the dung...). On rereading, even Faile's kidnapping does not seem as long as it did when the books were being written. Yes, RJ took detours that were unnecessary, and then richly described those detours; the series could have been shorter. At this point, though, it is what it is, and it has spawned this tremendous forum on which we can wax eloquent with our own prose, or quote nested quotes five levels deep to prove or disprove some point of presumed significance.

 

Many years ago I saw that RJ was attributed to have said that he "would not stop writing until they nailed [his] coffin shut." And that is essentially what he did. So the series (with Brandon's able assistance) is going to be fourteen volumes, discounting the prequel. Would RJ have stretched it to fifteen? We shall never know. One opportunity has slipped past, though. With all the use of the number thirteen in the series, it would have been appropriate to end in thirteen books.

 

My hope is that Brandon and the team can take the time to do it right; I think some parts of ToM suffered from haste. And then RJ's lasting legacy will be a well-loved fourteen volume series full of rich descriptions, characters that we love to hate, and the opportunity for fans to reread the entire series on a long vacation. Or to read some other series, or whatever.

 

Overall, a very good read!

[Terez]

I disagree with a lot of this. There are parts I do agree with though. Before I get into that, let me ask you this: What do you think of the parts of the book Sanderson wrote so far?

 

As far as I know in TGS and ToM, there are very few passages that we are definitively sure as to who wrote what...

 

Um...you really can't tell? There are parts that are questionable, but there is a pretty stark difference between RJ's writing and Sandersons.

Everyone thinks they can tell, but we know for sure that in many instances people are wrong. For instance, a good number of people bashed Brandon for the first scene of the TGS prologue, but RJ not only wrote that but read it - there's an audio recording of him reading it out there somewhere. Harriet got a kick out of that.

 

Also, part of the reason why it's difficult to tell in some places is that everything RJ wrote was in draft form and had to be edited by Brandon. There are some bits we're sure about (like Suttree said), but for the most part, it's probably best to assume that we don't know who wrote what.

 

(Don't bother telling us how you knew that RJ wrote that one scene.)

[Dante282]

I honestly believe that the length of the WOT is great. What makes this series so good is the detail and the realism. One thing RJ constantly points out in the series is that "its not like it happened in the stories" which I think is a great bit of dramatic irony (I think thats the right term) because the whole point is that for the events to occur in the WOT, the amount of time used is neccessary. Its not some other fantasy where small details are skipped over and events happen quickly, in reality events take time. Saving Faile would not take a few chapter IMHO because going through all the logistics and planning is a lengthy process. Looking at the individual characters and how they deal with situations adds to the realism and makes it less like a fantasy and more like an actual possiblity. As for character development, that too has an added sense of realism. people don't change who they have been for 18 or so years in a few weeks, it takes time. All the characters maintain who they are, but their personality traits adapt to their new roles in facing TG, admittedly, with a lot of resistance. But thats what I think is good, because in reality no-one suddenly changes miraculously to suit their new role in life, that would seem to forced. Egwene's wide eyed farm girl transition to Amyrlin Seat is just one of many exmaples.

 

I guess what im trying to say is that overall, the huge number of characters and story archs creates a sense of realism that makes those arcs neccessary and creates an actual reality in the reader's mind, which IMO is what I try to get out of reading.

[Pygmalion79]

I honestly believe that the length of the WOT is great. What makes this series so good is the detail and the realism. One thing RJ constantly points out in the series is that "its not like it happened in the stories" which I think is a great bit of dramatic irony (I think thats the right term) because the whole point is that for the events to occur in the WOT, the amount of time used is neccessary. Its not some other fantasy where small details are skipped over and events happen quickly, in reality events take time.

...

Yet the entire 14 volume series covers something close to two years of story-time, which strikes me as an extraordinarily unrealistic time frame for the events described.

[Grig]

Um...you really can't tell? There are parts that are questionable, but there is a pretty stark difference between RJ's writing and Sandersons.

 

Yet many people that assert that are laughably wrong. Like saying Sanderson wrecked the ToG scenes. That was funny. That felt the most Jordan to me out of the two Sanderson books. Of course, the Mat in tGS felt rather off. And Setalle Anan was kind of painful to read, if brief.

[Elan Tedronai]

series was flawed from the beginning. should have started with AOL first. may be then he wouldnt need all the filler from books 7-10 to keep the money rolling in from TOR and also spare us all that baloney in these books

[capuga]

series was flawed from the beginning. should have started with AOL first. may be then he wouldnt need all the filler from books 7-10 to keep the money rolling in from TOR and also spare us all that baloney in these books

 

Couldn't disagree more. The AoL works best with a bit of mystery and brief glimpses. Plus, it's a whole different set of protagonists. Would you care as much about our characters if we started the series with a different cast? If we hadn't seen them grow from the beginning? If we weren't discovering the wonders of the One Power along with the characters? If all those things had already been shown with the AoL we would view the current age the same way the Forsaken do (as primatives) and we wouldn't care as much about them.

 

An AoL series would be an interesting read but it would have to be a separate series. Mixing it with the current story wouldn't work well. Plus I'm not sure how drastically expanding the AoL from the tidbits that we get now would actually make the series shorter.

[Muad Cheade]

Exactly. We don't need to know every single aspect of the history and G.R.R. Martin apparently agrees.

[Muad Cheade]

Exactly. We don't need to know every single aspect of the history and G.R.R. Martin apparently agrees.