The Women in WoT

[Sleeper]

Most of the "main" women (that are Light-sided) through most of the series seem to care about their men.

They do complain at times, but it is not "all the time".

 

I recall from somewhere that Robert Jordan put some degree of his wife in each female of this series. Do not have an exact quote.

I agree that they care to some degree or another, but sometimes it feels like they don't care for them as people, but more as favorite pets.

 

Case in point: Myrelle.

 

Also, in Winter's Heart, the three Asha'man that get bonded to Cadsuane's lackies are essentially treated as pets (at least as far as I've read, I haven't finished it and I can't remember much from my previous readthrough).

 

Still, those are pretty isolated events. There are women in the series that are just fine, too

Edited April 3, 2011 by Sleeper

[Lupy]

I think that part of the reason for this is that power is corrupting the women we see. Egwene is the Amyrlin, Elayne is the Queen of Andor, Cadsuane was the top-dog Aes Sedai... The kings and Dragon that we see in the books are also very much influenced by their power.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't see any of those women as corrupt.

[Lupy]

i don't see any of those women as corrupt.

 

Perhaps what I should have said is that power changed them for the worse. Egwene is manipulative because she needs to control the Aes Sedai, and Rand (so she thinks). Cadsuane is a bully because it makes it easy for her to maintain her control and authority over everyone she knows. Elayne is spoiled rotten because she is a princess.

[Feral]

I have to say I find it rather amusing when people complain about how WoT women moan about men and consider them inferior. Makes me think: what sort of women do you know in real life?! In my experience, if you get a group of women together they will nearly always moan about men at some point in the conversation (I'm sure the same applies in reverse), and women do generally consider men to be less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex. Mind you, maybe in the real world we don't voice these opinions quite so often in front of men as the WoT females do.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

@ArborCantor - i can understand that better, thank you

 

@Feral - yeah, i think it's about even IRL, and i honestly see it as pretty even in the WOT.

it's normal/common human behavior.

 

i agree with mb that despite the complaints the women seem to care about the men, and i think it's vice versa as well.

Edited April 3, 2011 by cindy

[Seeker Matt]

I have to say I find it rather amusing when people complain about how WoT women moan about men and consider them inferior. Makes me think: what sort of women do you know in real life?! In my experience, if you get a group of women together they will nearly always moan about men at some point in the conversation (I'm sure the same applies in reverse), and women do generally consider men to be less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex. Mind you, maybe in the real world we don't voice these opinions quite so often in front of men as the WoT females do.

 

The vast majority of women I know don't view men as inferior or consider men to be "less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex" in any kind of way; nor do the men think such things of the women. It just doesn't seem to be conducive to living a fufilling existence.

 

As for the comments which seem to try to mitigate the women's attitude and actions towards men I think Sleeper's response is the most compelling - they treat them like pets. The relationships are too often are reminiscent of the sul'dam's affections for their damane.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Seeker Matt

[Feral]

I have to say I find it rather amusing when people complain about how WoT women moan about men and consider them inferior. Makes me think: what sort of women do you know in real life?! In my experience, if you get a group of women together they will nearly always moan about men at some point in the conversation (I'm sure the same applies in reverse), and women do generally consider men to be less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex. Mind you, maybe in the real world we don't voice these opinions quite so often in front of men as the WoT females do.

 

The vast majority of women I know don't view men as inferior or consider men to be "less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex" in any kind of way; nor do the men think such things of the women. It just doesn't seem to be conducive to living a fufilling existence.

 

 

Hmm, I was just thinking that implying women actually believe these things is a bit strong. They are common themes when women joke/comment about men, but I suppose a lot of it is simply habit and not always a reflection on their true opinions. And that is where real women maybe differ from WoT women, as the latter often seem to truely believe men are all idiots.

 

By the way just to explain my comments a bit:

 

Less sophisticated/evolved - When women pretend to act like men it usually involves burping, scratching etc. Women complain about how messy men can be.

Less emotionally developed/complex - Women complain that men never listen or understand their emotional needs and say they're only interested in one thing.

 

Of course, these are stereo-types, but things generally become that way for a reason.

 

Oh, and you hear a lot of women call men wimps and say they don't know what real pain is because they don't go through child birth.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Feral

[Seeker Matt]

Hmm, I was just thinking that implying women actually believe these things is a bit strong. They are common themes when women joke/comment about men, but I suppose a lot of it is simply habit and not always a reflection on their true opinions. And that is where real women maybe differ from WoT women, as the latter often seem to truely believe men are all idiots.

 

By the way just to explain my comments a bit:

 

Less sophisticated/evolved - When women pretend to act like men it usually involves burping, scratching etc. Women complain about how messy men can be.

Less emotionally developed/complex - Women complain that men never listen or understand their emotional needs and say they're only interested in one thing.

 

Of course, these are stereo-types, but things generally become that way for a reason.

 

Oh, and you hear a lot of women call men wimps and say they don't know what real pain is because they don't go through child birth.

 

I can understand and relate to that much better and ye, that difference is what I find a little uncomfortable.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Seeker Matt

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I have to say I find it rather amusing when people complain about how WoT women moan about men and consider them inferior. Makes me think: what sort of women do you know in real life?! In my experience, if you get a group of women together they will nearly always moan about men at some point in the conversation (I'm sure the same applies in reverse), and women do generally consider men to be less sophisticated/emotionally developed/evolved/complex. Mind you, maybe in the real world we don't voice these opinions quite so often in front of men as the WoT females do.

 

Amen, brother. The WoT women are just a reflection of women I'm the real world. If women in this world had a much power as the do in Randland would they act as well as they do there?

[Jillain Sanche]

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

That is the truth of our society, though I would give credit where it is due to men of higher consciousness than a chauvinist. And credit to some women and men who have raised their children to have respect for others and self respect.

 

Those who complain about WoT women to excess seem to be either so young as to have little experience of actual societal relations in all their contradictions and variayions, but there are some fewer here who may be chauvinist themselves and have trouble with the tables being turned.

 

Live and learn. Live and learn.

[Sleeper]

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

That is the truth of our society, though I would give credit where it is due to men of higher consciousness than a chauvinist. And credit to some women and men who have raised their children to have respect for others and self respect.

 

Those who complain about WoT women to excess seem to be either so young as to have little experience of actual societal relations in all their contradictions and variayions, but there are some fewer here who may be chauvinist themselves and have trouble with the tables being turned.

 

Live and learn. Live and learn.

I'm young (17), but I am by no means a chauvinist. I find it appalling that anyone would stereotype anyone else based simply on gender, race, religion, or ethnicity. However, that applies to women as well as men, and if women act in a chauvinistic manner towards men (as is sometimes the case in WoT), I find it just as disgusting.

 

Just like racism can go both ways, so can sexism.

 

In the world we live in, I agree that it seems that women are more often the victim of sexism than man (even though the number of sexual harassment lawsuits filed by men has been growing in recent years). However, this is not the world we live in, and in the world of WoT, if I see an attitude that I believe is chauvinistic from either sex, I will not hesitate to criticize it or be annoyed by it.

[randsc]

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

That is the truth of our society, though I would give credit where it is due to men of higher consciousness than a chauvinist. And credit to some women and men who have raised their children to have respect for others and self respect.

 

Those who complain about WoT women to excess seem to be either so young as to have little experience of actual societal relations in all their contradictions and variayions, but there are some fewer here who may be chauvinist themselves and have trouble with the tables being turned.

 

Live and learn. Live and learn.

 

I find the notion that, "you just don't understand because you're a kid" to be not much different, in its' essential qualities, from, "you just don't understand because you're not a man."

 

And I'm 43.

 

I started a whole thread about how people's reactions to WoT characters were determined largely by the age and gender of the reader. It was somewhat depressing how few people challenged the premise.

 

As for women's talk about men being, "fond complaints" while men's comments about women are, "negative and objectifying..." Well, let's just say you might find it fruitful to examine your own tendencies toward chauvinism.

[negativejuan]

It's interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts on this particular subject.

 

I view it as not that the women think men are inferior, but that they feel the need to control them via manipulation or simple bullying.

 

I didn't think of it in terms of women chanelling and there being no male channellers for several years so they naturally took the upper hand.

 

I just feel like the women treat the men like children who can't be trusted on their own. And I think this arrogant behaviour is part of what makes the Black Tower so scary, it's like it's a reaction to the White Tower, to just fight back.

 

And the fact that Taim is clearly a nutter...

[Zentari]

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

By your standards , not mine.Also, it's kinda funny how you lampshade the first part with the second, as if it somehow stops the whole chauvinism by pointing out that they do it too.

[Durinax]

It is indeed common to hear not only women jest among themselves about men, which might often be characterized as fond complaints.

Yet far more appalling, indeed hateful, is what is too often said by many men to each other about women in the most negative and objectifying sense.

By your standards , not mine.Also, it's kinda funny how you lampshade the first part with the second, as if it somehow stops the whole chauvinism by pointing out that they do it too.

I have to say that many men do not say derogitory things about women, it is just a few who are very vocal.

 

and if your talking about sexual references, I have to say that women are much worse, I hang out wiht quite a few and if theres more than 3 of them together they start saying strange stuff about men.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'm getting confused as to whether this thread is about women in the WOT or women IRL? all, what, 3.5 billion of us?

 

and i'm wondering whether some fans tend to be a bit confused as to whether women in the WOT are actually women IRL, or somehow represent women IRL.

 

because, they're not even written by a woman. they're all manifestations of the author's mind, his opinions, thoughts, creativity, preferences, biases, etc.

 

but a lot of people seem to react to these characters as if they are not only RL women, but women (and men, sorry, don't mean to be non-inclusive) whom they know and dislike IRL.

 

it seems that if there are "issues" with the characters in a book, the real "issue" would be with the creator/author?

 

i know this has been said before; please excuse the repeat. but it's sad to see every similar topic mired this same way.

[randsc]

i'm getting confused as to whether this thread is about women in the WOT or women IRL? all, what, 3.5 billion of us?

 

and i'm wondering whether some fans tend to be a bit confused as to whether women in the WOT are actually women IRL, or somehow represent women IRL.

 

because, they're not even written by a woman. they're all manifestations of the author's mind, his opinions, thoughts, creativity, preferences, biases, etc.

 

but a lot of people seem to react to these characters as if they are not only RL women, but women (and men, sorry, don't mean to be non-inclusive) whom they know and dislike IRL.

 

it seems that if there are "issues" with the characters in a book, the real "issue" would be with the creator/author?

 

i know this has been said before; please excuse the repeat. but it's sad to see every similar topic mired this same way.

 

 

Here's how that happens.

 

There's a thread about women in tWoT. Or about a female character.

 

Some people express irritation with those female characters.

 

Other posters immediately counter with an argument along the lines of, "If you don't like (female character X/the characterization of females by this author), you must just have issues with women in RL, and/or you just need to grow up a bit. Damn whippersnappers, why in my day we walked to school, in the snow, up hill both ways..."

 

And then we're off and running.

[Seeker Matt]

i'm getting confused as to whether this thread is about women in the WOT or women IRL? all, what, 3.5 billion of us?

 

and i'm wondering whether some fans tend to be a bit confused as to whether women in the WOT are actually women IRL, or somehow represent women IRL.

 

because, they're not even written by a woman. they're all manifestations of the author's mind, his opinions, thoughts, creativity, preferences, biases, etc.

 

but a lot of people seem to react to these characters as if they are not only RL women, but women (and men, sorry, don't mean to be non-inclusive) whom they know and dislike IRL.

 

it seems that if there are "issues" with the characters in a book, the real "issue" would be with the creator/author?

 

i know this has been said before; please excuse the repeat. but it's sad to see every similar topic mired this same way.

 

This thread is about the women in WoT. I don't think any one is confusing the women in WoT for living women rather they are discussing the quirks of a character on a site dedicated to the novels those characters exist in.

 

The only people who bring in women in real life seem to be those who disagree with any expressions of irritation about the actions and attitudes of the women in the WoT. You were one of the first in this topic to start bringing real life into the WoT!

[mikael]

+1 to both of randsc´s posts.

 

To juan: How is thinking men need to be controlled for their own good not thinking that they are inferior?

 

I haven't read any WoT book since the last installment, but isn't the men pretty much as bad. Always whining about women and so on? I don't really remember, but I'm sure both sexes have annyoed me a gazillion times with their stereotype sexism.

 

About the RJ quote, if it's supposed to mean that his family were like the WoT women then I'm really sorry for them. To abuse, manipulate, fight and consider every man an infant with hair on his chest, is not qualities I would look for in a woman, nor would I like to see them in myself.

 

On a related topic, it's a wonder we haven't seen homosexual couples in abundance considering how appaled both sexes are by each other.

 

Really, the men vs women theme in WoT is the biggest flaw it has, it's like, good story, cringe time, good story, cringe time, good story, plot armor saves the good guys... ;)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

sigh.

 

yes, i know. and i know a lot of this is deliberately provoked by trolling (i'm not talking about this thread in particular here). and i know that the issue becomes more sensitized by continued provocation (by both sides, really, because trolling is like that).

 

and i also see that there is genuine anger all around.

 

i was just hoping maybe we could step back and not be so quick to fall into this trap every time?

 

and yes, i know i do it myself. traps are like that, and i am often clueless. i take silly things too personally.

 

i'm sorry for whatever roll i play in this unfortunate schism.

 

so, sigh.

 

carry on, then.

[Feral]

I only brought up real life women to illustrate that RJ's female characters aren't completely unrealistic with their man-bashing as some seem to believe. Sheesh I'm sorry I said anything...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

yeah, sorry, i really didn't mean to make things worse.

[mikael]

I only brought up real life women to illustrate that RJ's female characters aren't completely unrealistic with their man-bashing as some seem to believe. Sheesh I'm sorry I said anything...

 

It's like someone said; what most people say jokingly IRL the WoT people live by. I actually met a guy talking like a WoT person the other day, was one of the most annoying people I've ever met.

 

Anywho, of course there is every type of person IRL, but what passes for the extreme where I come from is the norm in WoT.

[Magoose]

I am currently on book 8, and can say that so far..... I hate every woman in this series except for Min with a passion that burns hotter than the sun. 

I understand that this is supposed to be a matriarchy instead of a patriarchy.... But c'mon.  Every, single, woman, treats men like they aren't human.  Not just in public, in private too.   Does anyone really believe that in our real life society there is not a single guy who treats women well?  Or at least thinks that rape is a bad thing.  Spoiler warning:

The way Elayne and Nyneave treat Mat in book 7 is so bad I had to put the book down for a year.  Not to mention when I came back to the book, Tylin rapes Mat at knife point.  Mat eventually breaks down and tells Elayne... And she laughs at him.  Then goes and tells all of her friends.   And then, they all see Tylin doing it again, and just walk out of the room. 

I think Elayne has the worst character of any character I've ever read that I'm supposed to like. I hate her. 

I also like Birgitte

Edited August 7, 2021 by Magoose
Add on birgitte