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Two ReRead Questions(Spoilers for all)


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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

In answer to your second question, I believe that it was discussed earlier and the answer was that the gholam is a superior kind of Shadowspawn. It's better made. I also remember reading that the gholam was fundamentally different from Shadowspawn in some way, but I think that the first option was better attested.

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

 

Yup. He mimiced Sammael's web--he didn't need to know where he was, or where he was going, because Sammael had already provided that in his web.

 

Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

 

Brandon said the gholam was better made--shadowspawn perfected. One possible explanation for this is that RJ said gateways were lethal to 'constructs'. We know Shadowspawn which are no constructs--Grey Men and Darkhounds. Possibly the gholam are a similar form of Shadowspawn--not created, but taken and altered to be what they are.

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

 

Yup. He mimiced Sammael's web--he didn't need to know where he was, or where he was going, because Sammael had already provided that in his web.

 

Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

 

Brandon said the gholam was better made--shadowspawn perfected. One possible explanation for this is that RJ said gateways were lethal to 'constructs'. We know Shadowspawn which are no constructs--Grey Men and Darkhounds. Possibly the gholam are a similar form of Shadowspawn--not created, but taken and altered to be what they are.

So gateways are lethal to trollocs and possibly fade ? That's thin.

Ok you can add worms and drakkars if you like, but that's still pretty weak as as a plot device imho. I would have liked if Mat had __planned__ to throw the Golham off the skimming platform but instead had been surprised to see the Golham dissolved/cut/smashed/whatever the instant it crossed the gateway threshold.

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In my mind, the fundamental difference between the gholam and other shadowspawn, which allows it to survive gateways, is that most shadowspawn are living, breathing creatures, twisted by the shadow during their creation.

 

On the other hand, the gholam is a construct; an artificial being that is sentient. Because it is not truly "alive", it cannot be killed in the ways other shadowspawn can.

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So gateways are lethal to trollocs and possibly fade ? That's thin.

Ok you can add worms and drakkars if you like, but that's still pretty weak as as a plot device imho. I would have liked if Mat had __planned__ to throw the Golham off the skimming platform but instead had been surprised to see the Golham dissolved/cut/smashed/whatever the instant it crossed the gateway threshold.

 

And yet, that is not the case.

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I have noticed some inconcistencies rereading the series but only one really stuck out...well one bigger one and one small.

 

The small one being about "easing the bader." As I just started my reread and am about half way through book one I haven't got to this point yet but I remember they came across a tavern or something called "Easing the Badger" and asked as to what it meant. They didn't know. Later on, I think in one of the BS books, they "eased the badger" as a prank or something and I don't remember but it was like they had done it several times before. So at one point they didn't know what it was and later they not only knew but had done it. That is small and trivial though.

 

A big one I noticed is how later in the books Rand has a real problem with killing women. All the boys do though it mostly comes out in terms of Rand and Mat. Rand even keeps a list for awhile. His insanity also doesn't really start to manifest itself until what...book 7ish or so? Anyways, somewhere in book 3 I think, Rand is running away from the group and running solo to Illian to go and deal with the stone. The group is chasing him while he goes. Somewhere along the way, I think Perrin meets Faile. Anyways, one chapter has a couple pages devouted to Rand on the run. Rand is sitting around a campfire in the night and talks about the visions and visitors he has. During that scene he is visited by some people. He kills them, and props them up around the fire as if they were watching him. One of those people he killed was a woman. He shows no regret over killing her. He has no remorse. He is basically just laughing at their corpses aranged around the fire watching him. I think it was supposed to show his insanity.

 

I had found it very inconsistent though since later he has such a hard time with deaths concerning woman and of course the insanity aspect. I suspect it was written when RJ was planning a much shorter series and was at the point to start diving straight into Rands insanity. As it turned out though, his insanity was dragged out over many books. Not such a big deal at the end of the day, I just found it to be very inconsistent and a rather large mistake.

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I had found it very inconsistent though since later he has such a hard time with deaths concerning woman and of course the insanity aspect. I suspect it was written when RJ was planning a much shorter series and was at the point to start diving straight into Rands insanity. As it turned out though, his insanity was dragged out over many books. Not such a big deal at the end of the day, I just found it to be very inconsistent and a rather large mistake.

 

I've thought exactly the same thing. It's like at the start of tSR, RJ hit a 'rewind' button on Rand's insanity. Even in the darkest moments of tGS, I'm not sure we see Rand take killing people as something to make an almost-joke out of. And yet, RJ must have known in tDR that there was still massive reams of plot to get through. What, about 8 Forsaken left, the whole Seanchan plotline to restart, the Aiel, the Black Tower - hell, the White Tower division hadn't even started yet at that point! God, how long ago does that seem now...

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Guest mike03

I didn't really sense those inconsistencies about Rand's sanity. During The Dragon Reborn, I was always under the impression that Ishamael was messing with Rand's mind in dreams while Rand was on his own. I felt like Rand was being directly challenged as opposed to the later internal monologue where he started to lose control, such as in Lord of Chaos where Lews Therin almost had Rand break the seal that Taim gave him. But that's just my perception of the story.

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Illain to Shadar Logoth, that was actually Crown of Swords.

Rand had 2 previous visits to the city before then. First in Eye of World (Moiraine taking the Two Rivers folk there), second in Lord of Chaos (Rand trasporting ogier to there).

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After Egwene confronts Myrelle and goes to take Lan to the hills near Ebou Dar, she skims to get there. Yet, to skim you need to be familiar with the place you are going. That is an inconsistancy to me.
The scene explains that she saw enough of Elayne's weave to know the place.
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I'm pretty sure that you DO NOT need to be familiar with the place you are going if you are skimming. Isn't that only for Traveling?

It's the whole point of skimming, it's slower but can get you anywhere.

From Encyclopaedia::
Skimming

The ability to open a gateway to a dark dimension (not well defined or understood), move through that dimension, and open another gateway back into the real world in a different location. First mention is TFoH,Ch6. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Skim. Skimming requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Skimming to. Skimming was not even known as a lost Talent. (ACoS,Ch9)

Traveling

Opening a gateway directly to another place is called Traveling. It requires that one knows their starting point well. (TFoH,Ch6) The ability to open a gateway directly from one location to another. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Travel. Traveling requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Traveling from. Gaining sufficient knowledge takes several hours. (ACoS,Ch9) However, when Traveling a very short distance almost no knowledge is needed. (ACoS,Ch41) It is not necessary to face the direction that you want to Travel, but for some it helps. (TPoD,Ch21) Male and female Traveling are very different. Rand describes Traveling as punching a hole from one place to another. On her own, Egwene figures out how to Travel to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh by creating a similarity between a place and its image. (LoC,Ch27)

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/weaves.html

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

Yup. He mimiced Sammael's web--he didn't need to know where he was, or where he was going, because Sammael had already provided that in his web.

Actually, I feel I have a better explanation. Rand had just Traveled to that room from a lower level of the palace. Naturally, he then knows the room well enough to Travel from it.

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

In answer to your second question, I believe that it was discussed earlier and the answer was that the gholam is a superior kind of Shadowspawn. It's better made. I also remember reading that the gholam was fundamentally different from Shadowspawn in some way, but I think that the first option was better attested.

 

I was a part of that, I think that the argument is that the Gholam isn't exactly shadowspawn but a construct of the one power, which has some sort of difference. I think it was luckers who had the answer and references to speaking moments by RJ.

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Question number one is from LOC. How did Rand Travel from Illian to Shadar Logoth? He didn't know the area. Does reading the residues of weaves allow channelers to get around this loophole?

Yup. He mimiced Sammael's web--he didn't need to know where he was, or where he was going, because Sammael had already provided that in his web.

Actually, I feel I have a better explanation. Rand had just Traveled to that room from a lower level of the palace. Naturally, he then knows the room well enough to Travel from it.

 

The phrasing of that scene is fairly heavy on him drawing on Sammael's web.

 

The residue of Sammael's gateway hung in the air, the dissipating flows like faintly glowing ghosts. Not so faint Rand could not make them out, though. He began to weave, then stopped. He had leaped up here without a thought of a trap. If he copied what he saw exactly, he would step out wherever Sammael had, or so close as made no difference. But with just a slight alteration; no way to be sure whether the change was fifty feet or five hundred, yet either was close enough.

 

Don't get me wrong, travelling there would teach him enough to make a gateway, but he didn't need it--he had Sammael's template.

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Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

I actually totally forgot about the whole shadowspawn/constructs can't go through gateways when reading the gholam vs Mat battle, but maybe it's also got something to do with that fact that the One power can't touch the gholam, so maybe any of the effects going through a gateway would have on him just dissipate like any other weaves that touch him

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I'm pretty sure that you DO NOT need to be familiar with the place you are going if you are skimming. Isn't that only for Traveling?

It's the whole point of skimming, it's slower but can get you anywhere.

 

I think your right. If I remember correctly Rand also used skimming to learn a place to travel from, or something like that, tGS when he was going to meet with the border lords and ladies.

Edited by plague fiend
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Don't get me wrong, travelling there would teach him enough to make a gateway, but he didn't need it--he had Sammael's template.

That depends on how you interpret the limitations of Traveling. My take is that you can always make the weaves and they don't differ depending on where you're Traveling from, but they don't work unless you have a close familiarity with that place. Rand needed to adjust the weaves to control where he'd Travel to.

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Question two is from ToM. How did the gholam survive going through the skimming gateway? I thought Shadowspawn would die instantly by going through a gateway.

I actually totally forgot about the whole shadowspawn/constructs can't go through gateways when reading the gholam vs Mat battle, but maybe it's also got something to do with that fact that the One power can't touch the gholam, so maybe any of the effects going through a gateway would have on him just dissipate like any other weaves that touch him

I thought something like this as well.

That the Skimming and Traveling portals are not really made of the One Power. It is the One Power that create them but the hole is just a hole. Thus the Gholam could go through the portal with no problem.

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